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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.13 03:21:00 -
[91]
Originally by: SiJira i support the hub to be pen but not minmatar space
there's more interest in using minmatar space for the new hub so far. Can you give any compelling reasons to not locate it there?
<sig>
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Mahili
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Posted - 2007.10.13 08:06:00 -
[92]
It is apparent that building a new trade hub will probably be done by offering a wide range of supplies and by advertising. If we divide supplies into rough categories, we have : ships (built by manufacturers, who like to have mineral supplies close by), named items (supplied by mission runners, ratters, 0.0 space), and T2 items (which manufacturing I know very little about). Large regional hubs usually do a decent job of providing ships and named items from local suppliers, with a bit of help from traders. That leaves the T2 market.
For me, the point that sticks the most from this thread is the practicality of Jita for everyone involved in T2 manufacturing. Therefore, it seems that the location of the new hub could be chosen for optimal convenience for those people (and probably in Gallente/Minmatar space). While I cannot provide any answer, I would ask you to consider the question of locating a new trade hub from this point of view : where would it be most convenient for a T2 manufacturer, if he/she had a choice ?
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.13 08:57:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 13/10/2007 08:58:43 In the immediate aftermath of the Highways closure; Oursulaert competed with Jita to be the primary hub. Over time Jita grew and emerged as the biggest hub and Oursulaert slipped into second place. Rens and Amarr emerged the other Hubs.
As more time passed Oursulaert, Rens and Amarr started to stagnate.
The Coriault constellation in Sinq has eclipsed Oursulaert over the last year. Hek is looking to do the same to Rens.
Hek is one jump from Minmar COSMOS cluster and therefore has a good supply of invention stuff. It has plenty of stations, factories and most services and a very good Mech. Eng. R&D agent. At 0.5 security It's a good system for POS and is surrounded by other 0.5 systems. It has multiple low sec access points within a few jumps.
Coriault constellation is the closest developed cluster to the Gallente COSMOS in Algintal.
The only systems between these two hives of activity are Bei, Colelie, Deltole and Aufay. Bei is the only system with plenty of stations & services.
The center of mass of the Minmatar and Gallente trade hubs seem to be converging through market forces naturally. Seeding and Marketing of this area can only boost this.
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Aslord
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Posted - 2007.10.13 10:05:00 -
[94]
i thinks thats funny, so will they be an anti-jita, jita
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Daeva Vios
Ardent Adversary Anvil.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:12:00 -
[95]
Pardon me if I've missed something, but I've gone through and didn't see anything mentioned. While it's very interesting to discuss forming a new trade hub, I think folks are forgetting that a lot of traffic is contributed by mission runners, at least in the form of supplies. (this got mentioned, but in passing)
The volume of goods that enter any hub must come from somewhere. The only way to get many items is from mission-runners and ratters/explorers. To effectively steal business from Jita, the supply needs to be severely curtailed, matched by a growth in supply in the new hub and sufficient advertising.
It's a nice exercise to plan it, but what about execution?
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Amicus Pauperi
ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.13 15:10:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Daeva Vios ... a lot of traffic is contributed by mission runners, at least in the form of supplies.
The volume of goods that enter any hub must come from somewhere. The only way to get many items is from mission-runners and ratters/explorers. To effectively steal business from Jita, the supply needs to be severely curtailed, matched by a growth in supply in the new hub and sufficient advertising.
It's a nice exercise to plan it, but what about execution?
I don't know if we need to curtail supply at Jita as much as fully stock the new station. There are many named items that get melted down but the few that are heavily traded (Arbalest etc) can be easily imported from Jita. That's where the traders come in. And Hek is very close to the large Minmatar missioning area, much like how Jita is very close to Motsu. I'm not too sure what Angel ships drop but I have a feeling that Missile Launchers aren't one of them, so we'll have to perpetually import that item.
-AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4 |
Daeva Vios
Ardent Adversary Anvil.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 15:25:00 -
[97]
But how many mission runners operate in Minmatar space, as opposed to Caldari space? I think it's kinda silly to underestimate the demand for modules that are used quite a lot in missions but not so much in PvP. Jita is handy because of the supply from Motsu, but also because of the demand from Motsu and PvP combined.
PvP alone can carry a minor hub but not a major one, and as far as the concentration of mission-runners goes, Caldari space has it. Nowhere else comes even close to the population that Caldari space has.
Just look at the totals in both the econ blogs. Caldari space approaches 50% of total market movement, and I don't think that's solely because of Jita. I think it's a clear preference for the Caldari race and Caldari ships for mission running.
Moving a hub out of Caldari space is a nice gesture, but how would you beat the fact that the Caldari race has very nice attribute distribution to start with (the best, so I hear) and the best ships for running missions at a low level of SPs?
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.13 16:14:00 -
[98]
The best race is actually Minmatar Seibestor, but that is an argument for another day. The answer to all your questions is propaganda. I don't think it would take much to entice some of the care bear player base to other regions. Maybe just a little advertising and spamming local.
Just because your character is born one race doesn't mean you have to stay there. I think we can entice the players with a new and better market.
As for implementation, that still needs to be planned obviously. At this point I don't even think we are close to agreeing on a spot of where to do it. But Hek is looking nicer and nicer.
I think it would also be feasible to setup two of these new hubs at once. I don't think it would strain the logistics of the operation too much. Perhaps there could three areas of concentration: an industrial park in a strategic location, and two trade hubs. Then an organized logistics team could distribute from the industrial park to the trade hubs. This would help distribute office space and keep the costs for that down relatively. It would also allow for a lot more expansion. This would be very similar to the US and China operate currently. <sig>
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Amicus Pauperi
ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.13 19:24:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Daeva Vios But how many mission runners operate in Minmatar space, as opposed to Caldari space? I think it's kinda silly to underestimate the demand for modules that are used quite a lot in missions but not so much in PvP. Jita is handy because of the supply from Motsu, but also because of the demand from Motsu and PvP combined.
PvP alone can carry a minor hub but not a major one, and as far as the concentration of mission-runners goes, Caldari space has it. Nowhere else comes even close to the population that Caldari space has.
You're right, the amount of mission runners in Minmatar space is less than Caldari. I'd estimate that that for every 3 Minmatar missioners, there's 4 Caldari. I think you may be overestimating the demand created by Missions...I've never lost anything larger than a frigate while missioning/ratting(inexperienced early days). Granted, I own a cruiser and a battlecruiser, and will probably own a battleship eventually. However, I don't see myself losing those ships. However, down in crazy 0.0 land, I've lost tons of ships.
Large mission areas demand consumables - ammo, drones, and the such. The volume of consumables doesn't make up for their low material costs, therefore, I believe that PvP (and the loss of ships/mods) is the main drive of the market, not missions. Please enlighten me if my logic is at all faulty.
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Just look at the totals in both the econ blogs. Caldari space approaches 50% of total market movement, and I don't think that's solely because of Jita. I think it's a clear preference for the Caldari race and Caldari ships for mission running.
Sit down with a calculator and the market interface, and tell me again that Jita DOES NOT make up a large majority of the Caldari market (and by extension, the universal market). I fly many Gallente ships, but I still shop in Jita. I have little preference for Caldari ships, yet I contribute to the Caldari economy. That isn't so odd now is it?
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Moving a hub out of Caldari space is a nice gesture, but how would you beat the fact that the Caldari race has very nice attribute distribution to start with (the best, so I hear) and the best ships for running missions at a low level of SPs?
Which is why lots of people start off missioning in Caldari space. However, it's quite popular to move out and mission with other races too. I find Ravens all over empire...
People travel 20+ jumps for the cheap convenience of Jita. If we can recreate that in a system only 10 jumps away from where they live, then they'd have no reason to visit Jita ever again.
-AP Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4 |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:35:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Dr Slurm The best race is actually Minmatar Seibestor
YES!
You may ignore my digression.
It's A GIRL!!!!! |
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.13 22:27:00 -
[101]
So lets hear nominations for a new hub.
We'll just assume these systems are on the table, in no particular order:
Hek Rens Amarr Dodixie Oursulaert
Any others? <sig>
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Amicus Pauperi
ASGARD SECURITY SHIPPING PRODUCTION SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.14 01:26:00 -
[102]
Actually I was eagerly awaiting your query to see if there were any good manufacturing areas in Minmatar/Gallente space. Although realistically it'd be a lot easier to "elevate" an already popular area to "Jita status".
I'm also curious to know how many people are willing to commit some time and resources to this project. Show of hands anyone?
o| Economic PvP - Cornering Jita 4-4 |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.14 01:54:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Amicus Pauperi Actually I was eagerly awaiting your query to see if there were any good manufacturing areas in Minmatar/Gallente space. Although realistically it'd be a lot easier to "elevate" an already popular area to "Jita status".
I'm also curious to know how many people are willing to commit some time and resources to this project. Show of hands anyone?
o|
Minmatar space is a lot more sparce for factories (hint hint DEVS).
In Metropolis Hjortur has access to 13 systems and 457 factories within 2 jumps. Aldilur has 451 factories and 13 systems in 3 jumps.
In Heimatar Krilmokenur has 547 factories and 15 systems in 3 jumps. Pator 453, 12, 2
In Verge Vendor Sortet 568, 16, 3
Well I'm obviously interested. <sig>
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.14 02:16:00 -
[104]
Edited by: SencneS on 14/10/2007 02:22:46 Edited by: SencneS on 14/10/2007 02:20:49 Maybe there should be some consideration for high sec moons as well. A system with the most moons in a 0.5, 0.6, 0.7, Has at least 3 stations. With a really good regional network and is high factories within 5 jumps.
If there is a system with 50moons this could possibly draw more people into the system for labs, personal factories etc.
Edit:- If you look at the 2D maps by Omby Page 5 is very interesting. According to the map Sinq Laison is the one region that really has the most links to other regions.
You could say by looking at it, it's the center of the map. 9 Regions link to Sinq, thats more then any other region across EVE.
Amarr for Life |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.10.14 04:38:00 -
[105]
my vote remains for pen and in strong opposition to minmatar space ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.14 06:08:00 -
[106]
Originally by: SiJira my vote remains for pen and in strong opposition to minmatar space
Well there are a lot more reasons to use minmatar space then there is amarr space.
So far you just sound biased, which leads me to support minmatar space all that much more.
So cough up some reasons for one over the other or be prepared to be ignored. <sig>
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.14 06:44:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Dr Slurm So cough up some reasons for one over the other or be prepared to be ignored.
He probably has the same issue I have - not really welcome in Min space, BUT I think that is a good reason to start up in a region apposed to the Caldari/Jita standings.
I would rather see it in Galentte space for standing reasons but maybe the objective should be to create a hub for "Min/Gal" pilots that spend all their time mission running. With the new faction wars looking like they'll be coming Min/Gal empire WILL need a hub like Jita.
That could ultimately be why Jita is Jita.. Look at the stats, more Caldari.. Why? Because they can start with more skill points, they have the Raven which is a Mission runners dreamboat, so naturally their main hub is more popular. And this does somewhat explain Amarr being pretty large. For an empire with almost the lowest player pop why is Amarr a mini-Jita? Maybe because that's the only place those thousands of mission runners can trade it.
Amarr for Life |
SonOfAGhost
Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository Zzz
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Posted - 2007.10.14 11:22:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: Amicus Pauperi Actually I was eagerly awaiting your query to see if there were any good manufacturing areas in Minmatar/Gallente space. Although realistically it'd be a lot easier to "elevate" an already popular area to "Jita status".
I'm also curious to know how many people are willing to commit some time and resources to this project. Show of hands anyone?
o|
Minmatar space is a lot more sparce for factories (hint hint DEVS).
In Metropolis Hjortur has access to 13 systems and 457 factories within 2 jumps. Aldilur has 451 factories and 13 systems in 3 jumps.
In Heimatar Krilmokenur has 547 factories and 15 systems in 3 jumps. Pator 453, 12, 2
In Verge Vendor Sortet 568, 16, 3
Well I'm obviously interested.
I'm in as well. I think you might have missed looking at both sides of the regional jump, I count 24 factory stations within 2 jumps of Hek between Metropolis and Heimatar, 42 if you go to 3 jumps. Not sure where you got your odd numbers from, it looks to me like they all have 50 slots each, so 1200 and 2100. Not my idea of sparse :) Where I work currently I seem to have the slots (and usually the whole system) to myself, and central to all 3 Minmatar regionals.
Originally by: SencneS
With the new faction wars looking like they'll be coming Min/Gal empire WILL need a hub like Jita.
Very good point. While I'd thought enough to stem my own Amarr standings slide I hadn't actually thought about how the same applied to customers on the move rather than traders. On the other hand this will mostly apply to mission runners not PvPers.
As for location, I'm also partial to Hek of course, but would make an effort to help if another location is ultimately chosen. I would however like to recommend against Sinq. As has been stated, much of the trade will be PvP customers. Also if successful getting 1 alternate super-hub running another is a possiblity. So wherever we go should be somewhat de-centralized so that they each have their own spheres of influence rather than directly competing and so that they're accessible from different areas of 0.0. Caldari (Jita) up North, Minmatar (Hek/Rens) S&E, Amarr (?) S&W. Ultimately it's about where the most customers already are that are travelling far to Jita that we could provide a SIGNIFICANTLY closer point. I don't think saving 5-10 jumps is enough for someone that already travelled 30 or more from their 0.0 home, we should be looking for 11+ from Jita. Let's settle on which corner of Empire (SW or SE) first, and then the merits of systems in those corners. Boosting an existing hub does make sense, as mentioned, but if the customers are traversing a market deadzone we shouldn't rule out a new one until we know roughly where we want it.
Who needs the Nikkei when there's EBay? Lag? GTFOOJ! |
SiJira
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Posted - 2007.10.14 16:48:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: SiJira my vote remains for pen and in strong opposition to minmatar space
Well there are a lot more reasons to use minmatar space then there is amarr space.
So far you just sound biased, which leads me to support minmatar space all that much more.
So cough up some reasons for one over the other or be prepared to be ignored.
making hek or rens more than they already are would just cause another dedicated node required to sustain them, there is already a huge amount of trade in nearly a line from hek to rens
making penirgman the new hub would be creating something new - on the weekend there are people there - on weekdays it is merely a ghost system
was your original post serious? are we to make a new hub Quote: it would be kind of fun to start from scratch.
hek is already well populated
are we to achieve a remarkable feat or merely bolster an already thriving trade hub that anyone with a couple billion and a few days of time could do? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.14 17:01:00 -
[110]
I'm going to have to alter my query. Right now it is the same data that I sold to the guy wanting to know the max buy order distances in empire with no low sec included.
I should probably go back and account for that.
Personally I would love to see two new hubs pop out of merely our hard work and cooperation, but I don't really see that happening. So far the general opinion in this thread has been that we should try to embolden an already used sub-major hub. I don't really have a problem with either.
If we were to pick a brand new place I would want a good reason for it. Like an abundant supply of factories, moons and level 3 agents or something.
What I do like about pen is that it is relatively uninhabited and has access to the most high sec systems, and a **** ton of factories. <sig>
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.14 17:16:00 -
[111]
Edited by: SencneS on 14/10/2007 17:20:10 When you run that query make sure you account for same region restrictions.
You said you can say for certain that there are no systems for 10 jumps, but when you place a buy order it's 10 jumps in that region only. It doesn't extend to different regions. There are several systems across eve that you can get 10 jumps without hitting low sec. However if you include other regions the most I could find from "The Forge" and "Domain" was about 5-6 jumps but those low sec systems where in different regions.
If you have want a system look at The Forge and look at Mitsolen, it's actually 12 jumps from Ihakana the closest Low sec system in The Forge, however its only 7 jumps from Pakkonen, Pakkonen is in Lonetrek. If you accounted for this fair enough, and sorry, however I don't think you have given your statements about this query so far.
Also I believe you're already doing this but you also need to consider systems with stations. Obviously a low sec system can't have a market if it doesn't have a station so they can be omitted. Same Mitsolen example - Oijanen is actually 11 jumps and is a low sec system, however you can place an buy order that reaches that system. Simply because no one can fill it. Akora is the next system making it 12 jumps like Pakkonen.
Amarr for Life |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.14 17:40:00 -
[112]
Ok lets start over with the query:
An Ideal system must:
1. Have a station 2. Not be low sec 3. Have a large amount of factories in the nereby area
The dataset I have used stops at the border of regions, I could change this. I can also remove the high-sec only consideration.
Any other requirements? <sig>
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.10.14 17:53:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Dr Slurm I can also remove the high-sec only consideration.
Don't. There would be no serious consideration of a low sec hub by anyone. Considering freighter traffic, I don't blame them much either. (High sec ain't safe but low sec is something else entirely.) I would say that there needs to be low sec nearby with 0.0 not too far away either. Here's an idea for you. What is the number of jumps from Jita to: Amarr, Oursaleart, Rens. (Being the acknowledged capital-ish like hubs) Then have a search looking for systems that have the same kind of reach but swaps in Jita instead. (I.e. distance from Amarr, Rens, Jita). Hmmmm... even typing that it sounds complicated and unnecessary. nvm
It's A GIRL!!!!! |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.14 18:04:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Dr Slurm I can also remove the high-sec only consideration.
Don't. There would be no serious consideration of a low sec hub by anyone. Considering freighter traffic, I don't blame them much either. (High sec ain't safe but low sec is something else entirely.) I would say that there needs to be low sec nearby with 0.0 not too far away either. Here's an idea for you. What is the number of jumps from Jita to: Amarr, Oursaleart, Rens. (Being the acknowledged capital-ish like hubs) Then have a search looking for systems that have the same kind of reach but swaps in Jita instead. (I.e. distance from Amarr, Rens, Jita). Hmmmm... even typing that it sounds complicated and unnecessary. nvm
I meant the high sec requirement on the surrounding systems, not the system in question.
As for the second part, I really don't feel like writing a path finding algorithm today or ever for that matter.
What my script currently does is pull up a list of systems above or equal to .5 security. It then iterates through each system preforming subsequent queries. <sig>
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Palava
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Posted - 2007.10.14 21:42:00 -
[115]
It was possibly mentioned ago:
If you still want to start from scratch, what do you think of an Empire - 0.0 trade hub in Derelik, for example in the San Matar or Mossas constellation?
Just out of the blue, Maspah for example. Factories, location (opposite end of Empire from Jita, close to Rens/Hek but far from Amarr/Sinq), possibilities for High and Lowsec POSs, close Lowsec for 0.0 logistics - and it is near to a large part of 0.0 .
Any further thoughts on this?
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Meleil
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Posted - 2007.10.14 21:57:00 -
[116]
The southern regions wouldn't be a bad place at all. I'd gladly participate in this if we manage to find a system or systems to populate. ~Mel
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.15 03:23:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Dr Slurm Ok lets start over with the query:
An Ideal system must:
1. Have a station 2. Not be low sec 3. Have a large amount of factories in the nereby area
The dataset I have used stops at the border of regions, I could change this. I can also remove the high-sec only consideration.
Any other requirements?
For me I'd run...
1) Must be in 0.5,0.6,0.7 sec status 2) Must have lots of moons at least 30 3) Must have at least 4 stations 4) Must have level 1,2,3,4 and story line agents 5) Must have ICE Belts 6) Must be at least 10 jumps from Jita, but no more then 25 7) Must be in Min or Gal space 8) Must be in a region that has a semi-developed market already (Explain later) 9) Must be able to place at least 5 jump buy orders without intercepting low sec (Stationed) systems 10) Must have at least 250 factories within 3 jumps 11) Some asteroid belts but less then 10 so ratting isn't very popular.
The reason for number 8 is, maybe the idea is not to create a new one from scratch but somehow get everyone to consolidate into a station. If you take Genesis or Everyshore they have somewhat decent marks but they are all spread out, creating a hub with everyone in here can be done anywhere, but if we can create a hub and get the "Locals" to setup shop in the same system that's a lock for a new Jita.
Actually - What about Carirgnottin? Some stats It is a 0.6 system in Everyshore (Gal) It has an ICE belt It has 68 Moons Location 5 Jumps from Oursulaert 17 Jumps from Jita 19 Jumps from Amarr
You can place a 5 jump buy order without hitting a low sec system 2250 Factories within 10 Jumps (11 jumps it's every factory in the region, 2300 total) 950 Factories within 5 Jumps (Another 50 1 more then it's a big cluster 400 Factories within 2 Jumps. 100 Inventions and Lab slots within 2 Jumps (160 within 5 jumps) The station I docked at had 17 open offices It has 4 Gates.
Everyshore has 9 total low sec systems, 6 of which are surrounded by high sec or dead end systems, NONE of those 6 are in main pipes and can be easily by passed without any additional jumps.
Amarr for Life |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.15 03:55:00 -
[118]
Well #9 is a bit limiting considering there are only two systems with a 7 jump no low sec limit and only 4 5 jumpers.
That is quite a query to put together though. Might take me a few days. <sig>
Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig> |
SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.15 04:16:00 -
[119]
Where do you get the 2 systems that have 7 jumps no low sec?
I only ask because I can look at the 2D maps and see plenty of systems with a 5 jump (in the same region) that don't hit low sec. As a buy order that's really all the buyer cares about "Is this going to be filled in a low sec system?" assuming they are too chicken to go out and get it.
Amarr for Life |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.15 04:58:00 -
[120]
Originally by: SencneS Where do you get the 2 systems that have 7 jumps no low sec?
I only ask because I can look at the 2D maps and see plenty of systems with a 5 jump (in the same region) that don't hit low sec. As a buy order that's really all the buyer cares about "Is this going to be filled in a low sec system?" assuming they are too chicken to go out and get it.
Perhaps my data is skewed. In my spreadsheet it says Carirgnottin can only go 1 jump without running into a low sec system. I see only 4 systems where you can place 5 jump orders. This was a pretty solid query and I did double check it.
<sig>
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