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Dretzle Omega
Caldari Psychedelic Party Stellar Economy Experts
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Posted - 2007.10.16 19:12:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 16/10/2007 19:12:51
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 16/10/2007 18:50:59 "Guess what....you never make that back up. ooops. But go ahead, if skillpoints are your disfunction, go ahead...that you think you are somehow going to benefit in the very long term is *****ing me up.!ö Do some of you guys not read? Those of us with adv5 are going benefit next month when we can learn all those new skills and new ships far faster then those without learning. Its not going take 3 years we will be ahead 1 second after training a new skills. We can max out a new skills and start a 2nd new skill all while the people without learning are still on there first skill.
And apparently you don't read, because those people that didn't train to adv5 will already have trained the prerequisite skills for those new skills and ships to level 5. They will have the general ship support skills done before you and be able to fly those new ships much better than you (aside from actual player skill, as opposed to character skill), even if you do get into them an hour or two faster than them.
You may be ahead of them in # of skillpoints, or be able to train new skills oh so much slightly faster, but they will be ahead of you in skillpoints that have a direct relation to their career for about 3 years or so. ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108 |
Kera Va'Tauri
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Posted - 2007.10.16 19:34:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Dretzle Omega Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 16/10/2007 19:12:51 You may be ahead of them in # of skillpoints, or be able to train new skills oh so much slightly faster, but they will be ahead of you in skillpoints that have a direct relation to their career for about 3 years or so.
Well, here is a solution for you. Don't train ADV Charisma 5. That should mean the pay off is 2 years or so. In fact, don't train ANY of the charisma skills at all, roll the time you would have spent training charisma into learning the other learning skills and you'll pay off even faster.
I honestly can't figure out how, for any combat character, you can justify NOT maxing out Perception at the very least...
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.16 19:42:00 -
[63]
ôAnd apparently you don't read, because those people that didn't train to adv5 will already have trained the prerequisite skills for those new skills and ships to level 5. They will have the general ship support skills done before you and be able to fly those new ships much better than youö But with adv5 I already have all the prerequisite skills. The only difference is I can max out the new skills to lvl 5 much faster then the people without adv5. So no they wonÆt have general ship support skills done before me and they wonÆt fly the new ships better. In fact I will fly the ships better as I can train the new support skills like drone bandwidth while they are still maxing out the new ship skills which I will have finished days before.
According to the spreadsheet I used I will finish a rank 8 skill to level 5 at least 5 days faster with adv5 over adv4. Train 3 new skills to lvl 5 and I am 15 days ahead. There are more then 3 new skills coming out. How can 15days ahead to me means adv5 paied its self back. This reapeats its self time and time as more new stuff comes out. When T3 comes out I will just pull further ahead. Adv5 has been very worth it if I listened to people saying it was a waste of time I would be weeks if not months behind where I am now.
ôYou may be ahead of them in # of skillpoints, or be able to train new skills oh so much slightly faster, but they will be ahead of you in skillpoints that have a direct relation to their career for about 3 years or so.ö I donÆt agree. Yes I will only get in the ship hours before them. But I will max out the ships days before them. So I will be ahead of them by days in the new career.
What if you use my other example. Both the adv5 guy and the guy without adv5 where not interested in covert ops. Now the new covert ops battleships are out both pilots are intrested but both pilots need to train all the base skills for cover ops. Due to adv5 that pilot will be done at least a week before the guy without adv5.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Nabar Phargal
Gallente Anqara Expeditions The OSS
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Posted - 2007.10.16 21:45:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 16/10/2007 17:58:46 ôBy my definition a theoretical me that trained all the advanced learnings to V as soon after creation as possible could not possibly have as many useful skillpoints as I do now.ö I dont agree. I can think of another way for you to have more useful skillpoints. You trained to use a rail gun ship. 7months later you corp changeÆs goals and you want to try as a gang assist pilot, or stealth pilot or perhaps a cargo pilots. Having adv5 means you can change paths much easer and end up with more useful skill points then if you had adv4. As you learn that new path much faster and those new skills might end up being more usefull then the old skills.
That's a really poor argument. If I trained up sniping for 7 months, I'd have more skillpoints in it than the lvl V me. If both characters switched skillplans at the same time, the lvl V character would still not be as good a sniper as the lvl IV. That discrepency in non-learning skillpoints would exist no matter what I trained for about 3 years. That discrepency includes pre-requisites for new skills introduced in patches. Clarity V isn't a prerequisite for anything right now. "But with adv5 I already have all the prerequisite skills" is situational and won't always hold true for characters on otherwise identical skillplans until about 3 years after training from adv4 to adv5.
Opinions: Having as many skillpoints as possible (no matter what they are in) is fun. Skill A is better than Skill B. Newly introduced skills are awesome.
Facts: The Learning skills give you faster generation of skillpoints. The non-Learning skills affect how your character performs in the game. If you train all the advanced learnings to V, it will be about 3 years until you have as many non-Learning skillpoints as somebody that stopped at IV. |
Arrant Drew
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Posted - 2007.10.16 22:14:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Pottsey Do some of you guys not read? Those of us with adv5 are going benefit next month when we can learn all those new skills and new ships far faster then those without learning. Its not going take 3 years we will be ahead 1 second after training a new skills. We can max out a new skills and start a 2nd new skill all while the people without learning are still on there first skill.
You're not understanding how this works. Yes, you train everything faster having all Adv5. Yes, once the new skills come out, you will monster through them. But you are not grasping the fact that you are putting your ship/weapons/industry training on hold while you train learning skills.
say we start out with equal SPs, I decide to just go Adv4, then concentrate on ship skills, while you go for Adv5.
By the time you're done your learning skills, I'll have trained HACs or Dreads or whatever, while you have trained no tangible skill yet.
You will be learning faster than me, yes. But because I got such a head start, it will take a while for you to catch up to me at your faster pace.
After you do catch up to me, then you have a definate advantage. But with Adv5, that only happens after 3 years.
I did not expect such confusion from Eve players. C'mon, we're a smart bunch!
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Galan Undris
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Posted - 2007.10.16 22:59:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Galan Undris on 16/10/2007 23:00:33 The "learning new skills faster" argument is valid, but only if every other skill that would improve what you're doing is maxed. I would say people start hitting that border is at about 30-40M SP for a sub-capital pilot and probably 70M+ for capital pilots.
Is this worth putting you 60 days behind? Very few people seem to think so.
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Kayna Eelai
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Posted - 2007.10.16 23:54:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 16/10/2007 19:49:04 But with adv5 I already have all the prerequisite skills. The only difference is I can max out the new skills to lvl 5 much faster then the people without adv5. So no they wonÆt have general ship support skills done before me and they wonÆt fly the new ships better. In fact I will fly the ships better as I can train the new support skills like drone bandwidth while they are still maxing out the new ship skills which I will have finished days before.
According to the spreadsheet I used I will finish a rank 8 skill to level 5 at least 5 days faster with adv5 over adv4. Train 3 new skills to lvl 5 and I am 15 days ahead. There are more then 3 new skills coming out. 15+days ahead to me means adv5 paied its self back. This reapeats its self time and time as more new stuff comes out. When T3 comes out I will just pull further ahead. Adv5 has been very worth it if I listened to people saying it was a waste of time I would be weeks if not months behind where I am now. What if the adv4 person doesnt have the support skills?
he, i really would love to see if some1 is able to argue against this.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.17 06:37:00 -
[68]
ôIf I trained up sniping for 7 months, I'd have more skillpoints in it than the lvl V me. If both characters switched skillplans at the same time, the lvl V character would still not be as good a sniper as the lvl IV. That discrepency in non-learning skillpoints would exist no matter what I trained for about 3 years.ö True the Adv5 wouldnÆt be as good a sniper. But without adv5 you wouldnÆt be as good a gang assist pilot. If you then decide you prefer gang assist or it helps the corp more, your not better off as you have more useful skillpoints due to adv5. So if you go back to being a sniper adv5 would not have been worth it. If you spend almost all your time as a gang assist pilot adv5 was worth it and paid its self back as you ahead of where you would have been without it.
I fully admit in some caseÆs your better off not getting adv5. What I am trying to show is that in some caseÆs adv5 pays its self back in less then 6months as you end up with more useful skillpoints.
ItÆs not a poor example itÆs realistic. This is roughly what happened to me. I maxed out my profession as a cargo pilot got adv5 then new cargo ships and gang assets came out I then spent the next 6months mastering gang assist. If I listened to other people on these forums I would not have got adv5 and I would have been weeks behind where I am now.
ôBy the time you're done your learning skills, I'll have trained HACs or Dreads or whatever, while you have trained no tangible skill yet. You will be learning faster than me, yes. But because I got such a head start, it will take a while for you to catch up to me at your faster pace.ö As I pointed out in my example you would have say HACS while I would have Covert opts battleships maxed out to lvl 5 before you. Now if you end up spending all your time in the HAC's then adv5 wasnÆt worth it. If you end up spending all your time in the new Covert Op battleship then adv5 was worth it.
Its not a clear cut case of one path is better then the other.
ôAfter you do catch up to me, then you have a definate advantage. But with Adv5, that only happens after 3 years.ö If you have the same stats and skills as me 6 months down the line I will have the new support skills and new ship skills maxed out. ThatÆs an advantage in 6 months. Not 3 years. You without adv5 would be 15days or more behind. 15days means I will be able to max a full skill that you have not even started to train yet as your still training something I already have maxed out.
ôIf those 60 days is worth it to gain 2-3 hours on some skill in 3 years is worth it then go ahead.ö ItÆs more like days. Like I said above 3 skills to lvl 5 is 15days ahead. ItÆs not a matter of hours.
öBut you are not grasping the fact that you are putting your ship/weapons/industry training on hold while you train learning skills.ö Yes I do understand I am just pointing out different skills have a different values and if the new skills are a higher value then the old skills you better off with adv5 and training the new skills. Sometimes though I am on your side and your better off without adv5. It all depends on what path you go down. There are 4 case's where adv5 is best. The rest of the case's your better off without adv5.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Affirmativ
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Posted - 2007.10.17 06:45:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 16/10/2007 18:50:59 "Guess what....you never make that back up. ooops. But go ahead, if skillpoints are your disfunction, go ahead...that you think you are somehow going to benefit in the very long term is *****ing me up.!ö Do some of you guys not read? Those of us with adv5 are going benefit next month when we can learn all those new skills and new ships far faster then those without learning. Its not going take 3 years we will be ahead 1 second after training a new skills. We can max out a new skills and start a 2nd new skill all while the people without learning are still on there first skill.
you misquote me, i see you won't engage with the point I made.
spending months training learning skills means you lose months of normal playtime, income and progression. No normal player will do that. The image of the caldari achura (LOL) with their learnings to 5 and the 'yes i'm proud' is just hilarious.
It irks me because they are trying to get one over on everyone by saying 'i'll be ahead of you one day lulz!11'. We'll see if you even play eve in many years time, then.
You can't ever make that back up.
You point about new skills is valid, however, what about all the other skills in the game of which there are hundreds? ahhhhh.
If you have a highly nerfed attribute or you are specialising big time training one/two advanced to level 5 might be logical, but otherwise no, it's simply a case of a person's inability to reason with their obsessive compulsive desires to min/max.
Also, am pretty sure every normal person forgets to train a skill, or otherwise can't start a new one because eve is borked, that happens quite a bit. This skill downtime really, really hurts the efficiency of those who spent months training up to level 5. It could even put them negative.
Evemon and EFT are fantastic tools, but some people seem to spend more time looking at projections of DPS and tankable DPS and SP p/h than playing the game, and thus the caldari achura skillpoint cult is born.
But go ahead and train them all to 5, just remember feeling the compulsive need to do something does not justify doing it.
I think even CCP have said that learning skills were a mistake. So go ahead and train 'mistake' to level 5.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.17 07:00:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Pottsey on 17/10/2007 07:01:13 ôyou misquote me, i see you won't engage with the point I made. spending months training learning skills means you lose months of normal playtime, income and progression. No normal player will do that.ö I half agree with you. I dont lose playtime or income or progression. I can still earn isk, buy new ships and equpiment and play as normal. As long as you already have some set base skills. Yes a new player shouldnÆt spend the first 3 months doing nothing but adv5 and yes at first while I am getting adv5 you will be ahead as you could lean hacs intread. But once you have xxx millions of base skills there gets to a point where its worth getting adv5.
But what if you max out your profession which takes less then 1 year (Mineing, cargo pilot e.c.t) get adv5 while deciding what new profession to go down? ItÆs all a matter of whatÆs more important the skills you donÆt have or the skills coming out. It my case it was the skills due out that mattered but I am an old pilot and there where less skills when I got adv5. DonÆt most players change there skill plan drastically after 1 year in which case adv5 again proves useful.
ôYou can't ever make that back up.ö But you will never catch up on the new skills and will always be behind. Its swings and roundabouts. Since I got adv5 over 150 new skills came out.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
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RaTTuS
BIG Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.10.17 07:17:00 -
[71]
1) look at age of character 2) look at todays date 3) subtract one from another 4) if result is >3yrs then you have wasted learnings.
but - also make sure you have learning implants plugged in . if you don't have +5's why not.
also remember that the higher the attribute the less the increase of one more point is
but in the end it is all down to - are you having fun
-- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve [Now Verified] & RaTTuS Home
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.17 10:34:00 -
[72]
"4) if result is >3yrs then you have wasted learnings." As I proved above thatÆs not always true. Sometimes it is, sometimes not.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
foxische
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Posted - 2007.10.17 11:52:00 -
[73]
just to clear the things a bit - noone with all the learnings skills at 5 claimed he wasted his time,the ones who never got it did.Jalous ?
I personally trained all the learnings column and pretty satisfied with it +all the +5 implants.And I will never regret putting 5.3mil+ sp in learnings or training cybernetics or whatever
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Galan Undris
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Posted - 2007.10.17 15:49:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Galan Undris on 17/10/2007 15:54:56
Originally by: Pottsey
As I pointed out in my example you would have say HACS while I would have Covert opts battleships maxed out to lvl 5 before you. Now if you end up spending all your time in the HAC's then adv5 wasnÆt worth it. If you end up spending all your time in the new Covert Op battleship then adv5 was worth it.
- The T2 battleship skills are rank 10. If your perc and will is 24 with 5/4 learnings you train it to level 1 in 1 hour and 9 minutes and to level 5 in 49 days and 9 hours.
-If you train adv 5 before they are released and have 25.1 in perc/will will train it to level 1 in 1 hour and 6 minutes and to level 5 in 47 days and 8.5 hours.
- [my opinion] If you want to fly a black ops you'd be way-way better off training jump drive calibration 5 than advanced learnings 5 anyway, and you wont have that unless you are a near maxed capital pilot already.
Do you want trade the ability to fly a HAC for 60 days with the ability to fly a Black ops 3 minutes sooner and have it maxed 2 days and 30 minutes sooner?
If getting a Black Ops is all you care about and minutes matter, then yes, its probably what you should do. I do however (with most others) think that those 60 days in a HAC is worth more than those 3 minutes (2 days) in a (maxed) Black Ops.
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Dubious Drewski
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Posted - 2007.10.17 16:45:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Pottsey ôBy the time you're done your learning skills, I'll have trained HACs or Dreads or whatever, while you have trained no tangible skill yet. You will be learning faster than me, yes. But because I got such a head start, it will take a while for you to catch up to me at your faster pace.ö As I pointed out in my example you would have say HACS while I would have Covert opts battleships maxed out to lvl 5 before you. Now if you end up spending all your time in the HAC's then adv5 wasnÆt worth it. If you end up spending all your time in the new Covert Op battleship then adv5 was worth it.
Its not a clear cut case of one path is better then the other.
This is unbelievable. I really don't know what else to say - it was explained as clearly as possible. I'm sorry for making judements or possibly insulting you, but it seems you are not able to understand the logic here.
I won't reiterate what I've said - it was said perfectly in my last post. But you cannot imagine the frustration of trying to explain to someone that 2 + 2 does not equal 5, when they are convinced it does.
Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last
And that's why I love that homely boat! |
Tallann
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Posted - 2007.10.17 16:48:00 -
[76]
Pottsey, it seems like your math is a little fuzzy to me.
By my calculations using Evemon. The difference between training Caldari Titan(16) from 0-5 is not even 5 days with Adv5 vs adv4.(76d1H vs 71D19H)
In your example your using a rank8 skill and stating that you cut 5 days.(which should be 2.5 day training time cut)
Unless Eve-Mon is wrong, it appears your are roughly "doubling" the affect of adv5 vs adv4.(its about a 5% increase overall give or take, so a 5day cut off a 37days of skill is waaay to high %wise)
Just as an example... a 372Day play training for Gallente Titan 5, and Caldari Titan 5(as well as all prereqs for me, leadership V, racial frig IV, Cruiser IV, BS V) If I add Clarity V at the beginning of the plan, it will take 374 days(So in a year plan of training nearly all perception based skills it will _almost_ pay off mathematically, and adding Focus V to the beginning will push it to 384.(Essentially meaning Focus V took almost 14days to train but only cut off 4 days from the entire roughly a year plan)
Its your perogative to train it or not, but it certainly seems like the Math you were presenting above to justify it was not correct. What did you use to come up with an over 10% reduction in skill training for a < 5% increase in skill?
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.17 17:47:00 -
[77]
ôThis is unbelievable. I really don't know what else to say - it was explained as clearly as possible. I'm sorry for making judements or possibly insulting you, but it seems you are not able to understand the logic here.ö I fully understand the logic itÆs you who doesnÆt appear to understand me. In my example due to adv5 I will have skills trained to lvl 5 before you do, that puts me ahead not behind. As I proved I can get 4 skills to lvl 5 in the time youÆre still working on your 3rd skill. There is no possible way for you to get those new skills before me.
I gave an example thatÆs true and all you have done it said I am wrong. Prove me wrong, you have yet to do that. Due to adv5 I am weeks ahead in skill training and have more useful skill points and it didnÆt take 3years. This took months not years. If I am ahead in useful skill points how can it have not have pied it self off? If I have 30+days of skills I couldnÆt have had without adv5 I am not behind. (30days is a guess no idea how far ahead I am now)
What I said about me being able to get ship skills before you is true. ItÆs not unbelievable. Its because of adv5 and thatÆs a fact.
ôyou cannot imagine the frustration of trying to explain to someone that 2 + 2 does not equal 5, when they are convinced it does.ö Imagine my frustration that you donÆt seem to understand adv5 in some caseÆs means your skill training plan is faster not slower. If itÆs faster itÆs paid its self back.
If we set a 6 month skill training plan using new skills to level 5 adv4 would finish the training last by being 15+days behind. If adv5 finishesÆ the training first then itÆs not behind in some form or another. How can the adv5 person who finishes his training first be classed as being behind? The first to finish the skill plan is the one whoÆs ahead with the most useful skill points. In my example thatÆs the person with adv5. Now sometimes itÆs the other way around and without adv5 is better.
ôPottsey, it seems like your math is a little fuzzy to me.ö Perhaps I made a mistake so I will type it out here. With Perception 19 and willpower 15 Cruise Missile Specialization a rank 8 skill will take 51 days 17 hours. If I lose one from not having adv5 I get With Perception 18 and willpower 14 Cruise Missile Specialization a rank 8 skill will take 55 days. 55-51= 4days or less if you do it precisely less. Clearly something went wrong.
So rounded down to 3days then 3 skills would be 9days ahead not 15.
NOTE: Found out what went wrong. When I was using the spreadsheet I was rushing due to posting before work. I didnÆt notice that the base learning skills including the 10% learning where not active. If you do the same rank 8 skill with low attributes then add plus one it does hit 5 days. Higher attributes and it goes as low as 2 days.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Galan Undris
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Posted - 2007.10.17 18:48:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Galan Undris on 17/10/2007 18:55:00 There is another factor Pottsey doesn't seem to mention.
The economical payback function is static, once you've decided how far to train them you know exactly what you get in return.
By training them to level 5 to "train new skills faster" CCP actually has to actually release a set of skils of significant size that is so powerful that it makes those few days youll pull ahead every year worth it. In other words, CCP has to introduce a new usefull skillset at the point where you've already maxed all relevant skills or a set of skills that are so powerful it makes everything you have left to train irrelevant.
So there is great uncertainty with the advanced 5 strategy, it may be you get a nice head start on something, but the next batch of skills may also be mistimed (you still have basic stuff or pre requirements left to train) or they may be totally useless to you.
Also, once you have completed those 101 days and maxed the new skills you have about 4 days (according to your numbers) of sunshine before the adv 4 guy is at the same place, except he has over 60 days (7-8M SP) more than you of older skills trained. Who is most likely ahead now? The adv 4 guy WILL catch up as long as the new sets of skills are shorter to train than the economical payback of your advanced 5.
Those 4 days better be bloody awsome.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.17 19:22:00 -
[79]
ôThose 4 days better be bloody awsome.ö But itÆs for over 6 months you ahead not just 4 days. From day one you ahead and it gets longer and longer. Very roughly (guess not done math) it might be 1 day ahead after 3 weeks, 2 days ahead after 6 weeks, 4 days ahead after 9 weeks. 6 months later and your more then 4days ahead and chanceÆs are more new skills have came out.
But you do have a point if you stop training new skills then the adv4 person can catch up. But if you keep training new skills he doesnÆt. I spent well over 6 months training gang assist when it came out so I was ahead then for a good 6+ months. Then I moved onto other new stuff like hacking, then rigs, then T2 invition and again next month when more new stuff comes out. Think back to when you started the game just how many new skills have came out you have trained? I bet most pilots over a year old can say they have 20 or 50+ new skills. In my case I think its over 100.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Galan Undris
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Posted - 2007.10.17 19:27:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Galan Undris on 17/10/2007 19:35:23
Originally by: Pottsey ôThose 4 days better be bloody awsome.ö But itÆs for over 6 months you ahead not just 4 days. From day one you ahead and it gets longer and longer.
It gets longe and longer.... until you've maxed them or come to a point where older skills gives more value (with the diminishing factors) and can't pull any further ahead. At that point you have to go back to training existing skills where the adv 4 guy is ahead.
It is possible to gain a permanent advantage if the new skills are long enough, but guess what, that point is where it crosses into economical payback.
Of course you can gamble that there will be new stuff that will be more usefull than the old stuff released, and it has to be released before the adv 4 guy can finish as much as he needs, but thats a high gamble (particulalry considering the narrow timeframe the new skills have to be released in to maintain the gap).
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.17 19:32:00 -
[81]
ôIt gets longe and longer.... until you've maxed them and can't go any further. At that point you have to get to the point where you have to train existing skills where the adv 4 guy is ahead.ö Sometimes yes that is correct but sometimes like in my case it wasnÆt. ItÆs very hard to predict the whatÆs going happen and whatÆs going to come out. I had no idea I was going learn hacking or be a gang assist pilot a few years back but I am glad I had adv5 ready to do both.
But if you train enough new skill your going be training for months perhaps long enough fro more new skills to come out. Then again perhaps not. To be clear I donÆt want to sound like its always best to go with a adv5. Only sometimes.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari Psychedelic Party Stellar Economy Experts
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Posted - 2007.10.17 19:39:00 -
[82]
Well, I have to say, I definitely agree with Pottsey IF you've already maxed out your career path to what you wanted to do (more or less). Definitely not for a new player, and definitely not if you think it will get you ahead quicker on current skills. But if I've maxed out what I want to do for the time being, Learning skills, even adv 5, is a safe skill to learn as I decide what I want to go on to next. ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108 |
Dubious Drewski
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Posted - 2007.10.17 21:26:00 -
[83]
Pottsey, could you please take a look at this chart I made? I really would like to see how our opinions could differ so much.
This is how the the system works
Could you let me now what you don't agree with in that diagram? It does not (and it can not) get any simpler than this.
Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last
And that's why I love that homely boat! |
KiiLLa
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Posted - 2007.10.17 22:26:00 -
[84]
Edited by: KiiLLa on 17/10/2007 22:29:26 Edited by: KiiLLa on 17/10/2007 22:28:06 Nvm. My point was already made by a previous poster. Useless discussion.
P.S.: Please spare our eyes and use the quote\quote tag, that bold quoted text is barely legible.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.18 06:33:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Pottsey on 18/10/2007 06:35:35 http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chartgu2.jpg Bit rushed but as the two ships skills and later on the new support skills are more value then what ever I could have trained during the learning period. The blue bar of useful skill points goes over the red bar. DidnÆt have time to edit that in as heading to work.
After ships are trained I move other new skills like bandwidth. Dueing the blue bit where I am training learning skills your training a skill thatÆs useless to me like say missiles, or laser rigs. To me not training a low value skills so I can train high value skills due out faster makes learning worth it.
Basically your saying all skills have a value of say 3 in usefulness but leaning has a value of 0. But I am saying each skill has a different value. Missiles to me have a value of 0, turret skills a value of 6, drones 7, building skills 2. e.c.t the only skills I have left to train have a value of 0 or 1. The skills coming out have a value of 6. So I am better off getting adv5 then training those new skills.
If you going say learning skills have a vaule of 0. Then you need to start giving other skills different values. Multitasking might not be as useful as say T2 rail guns.
Right now I have two choicesÆ train something I donÆt need like missile skills or get adv5 (pretending I dont have it) then train the new T2 railgun ships faster.
I fully agree new players should not train adv5 learning skills right away. Unless they are 100% sure they are going be in game for 4+years. Even then they should get certain base skills first. But a 6 to 12month piot can find adv5 worth while to get.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Clueless Alt
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Posted - 2007.10.18 07:47:00 -
[86]
Pottsey, you forgot the skill pre-req for the black ops. And if you did them before the learning, it's even worst...
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.18 09:31:00 -
[87]
ôPottsey, you forgot the skill pre-req for the black ops. And if you did them before the learning, it's even worst...ö No I didnÆt it that was part of my point what if both the adv4 and adv5 pilot either donÆt have the pre-req or both do. What if both donÆt as both had no interested in the jump or stealth skills. Both had no idea black ops battleships where coming out and both had no interest in cap ships so didnÆt have jump drive skills. Why would a none cap ship pilot have jump drive skills?
Now Blackops comes out both pilots get interested and need to train the pre-req and new skills along with jump drive extra skills. Only the adv5 guy can train all those pre-req skills much faster then he can move onto the new skills before the adv4 guy has even got the pre-req skills.
Adv4 couldnÆt have trained the pre-req skills instead of adv5 as this time last year he had no idea he would need them.
Or example 2 both the adv4 and adv5 pilot have all the pre-req skills. In which case again the adv5 pilot has the advantage.
Then there is example 3 where both the adv4 pilot trains pre-req skills and adv5 didnÆt, as he was getting learning. But thatÆs rare as there was no way for adv4 to know which skills would be needed in a year times. There is also no way to train all the pre-req skills for all the new ships during the time it takes to get adv5. You have no idea whatÆs coming out that you will want. Or you might do but not no the pre-req. In those caseÆs its worth getting adv5 then you can train both the new skills and pre-req skills faster.
There are what 20 new ships due out? The adv5 person is in a much better place to learn 4 or 5 of those ships then the adv4 person.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Clueless Alt
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Posted - 2007.10.18 10:26:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Clueless Alt on 18/10/2007 10:34:50
:o
My comment isn't clear, anyway, abstract that it's for black ops, just imagine the "release point" is when you create your character.
For sure, the 2 line gonna cross in the future. Early if the red line don't do learning at all. But, if red=adv 4 and bleu=adv 5, it's... far far away.
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Kayna Eelai
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Posted - 2007.10.18 11:19:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Clueless Alt Edited by: Clueless Alt on 18/10/2007 10:34:50
:o
My comment isn't clear, anyway, abstract that it's for black ops, just imagine the "release point" is when you create your character.
For sure, the 2 line gonna cross in the future. Early if the red line don't do learning at all. But, if red=adv 4 and bleu=adv 5, it's... far far away.
i am not very good at understanding graphs (not to say i am total CRAP at it) but... in your theory it would mean is that either A) after you got adv5 there won't be new skills EVER or B) after you got adv5 you won't want to learn new skills...
both A and B are wrong, and there will always be new skills and thats where the adv5 shines over the adv4, recovering pretty fast all that "advantage" the adv4 thought he had (assuming both adv4 and adv5 go for the same new skills, as the mentioned marauders for example)
this means that the adv5 will always win, whenever both adv4 and adv5 guy learn new released skills. and the more new skills are released that both guys want, the more advantage the adv5 will have.
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Kayna Eelai
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:03:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 18/10/2007 12:05:28 Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 18/10/2007 12:04:33
Originally by: Vajak
To pay back the time invested you need to train skills using that particular attribute as primary attribute for
u obviously didn't read the total of this post before replying, or you would notice that most of those who vote FOR adv5 don't give a flying crap about "pay back" time or "having advantage over <whoknowswho> that did his char the same day and has adv4"
and as said, the more new skills are released, the more *gasp* "advantage" the adv5 guy gets.
let me put it this way. a mate of yours is quitting the game, he has 2 chars to give away for free, both ONLY have learning skills, one is ADV4 and one is ADV5... which one would you take if you had to chose 1 of them, huh? the adv5 one, right?
/sarcasm on see? thats it, end of this stupid discussion, i win this post and the internetz ^^ /sarcasm off
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