Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Terminus adacai
Caldari
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 10:34:00 -
[1]
The IRS and other taxing authorities have been looking at MMO's as a another way to raise income for governments. While this is not new news to many of you, it may shock most of you.
There is a barter trading law in the US that allows the IRS to tax profits made on the trade of goods that have a market value, whether money exchanged hands or not. MMO's like EVE have recently come under scrutiny, because in game assets have been sold on eBay and other avenues for real life currency.
Anyone that has a trade chat channel open in game knows that the value of 1 billion isk sells for around 48-58 US dollars on rogue websites. Advertised in and out of game, this has set a real life value on an in game currency. Also the sale and trade of game time codes (GTC's) has also helped establish a real life value on isk.
There are laws in several countries, including the US, referred to as "Bartering" that do not require cash to change hands to consider it taxable. The fact that isk spammers in game have "set" a real currency market value on isk and other implants and items, puts players at risk of taxation.
IRS documentation implies that "Goods taken in trade or won at play are taxable the moment they fall into somebody's hands, even if they are not sold for money." Anyone who has won a prize at a bingo hall know this. "Fair Market Value" are the keywords here.
The Fair Market Value for isk is being set by in game spammers and websites that sell isk and in game items. Whether or not you sell isk, making a profit in game could possibly put one at risk of a tax liability. Say you purchase a Hulk for 85 million isk and sell it for 125 million isk, you made 40 million isk that could be sold or traded in lieu of paying for game time in the future. the fact that you have no intention of selling it doesn't matter, you profited under "barter" definition.
Many will be outraged to consider that their local government would consider such taxation. This thread was created to open the discussion, not place blame or hate. After all, it is only beginning to be discussed. What can we as gamers do to head this off, or make sure our concerns are addressed?
I have included some links below to substantiate the reason for concern.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060106-5923.html
http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2006/feature_dibbell_janfeb06.msp
http://kotaku.com/gaming/mmorpg/the-irs-may-be-coming-for-your-virtual-wares-146995.php
There are many more articles online that can be found using Google.
There are going to be opinions of varying degree, please keep it civil and discuss your thoughts, as this affects us all.
Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance. |
syphurous
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 10:36:00 -
[2]
I posted something similar ages ago.
You dont own anything in Eve.
Now Seconde Life,.... ___ Sig removed. Please keep sigs to 24000 bytes in size or less. -Kaemonn |
Lowanaera
Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 10:38:00 -
[3]
Every time this has been brought up, it has been resoundingly shot down on legal grounds. No goods are transferred, ownership of virtual items is the operating company's (in this case CCP) alone, so there is no transaction to tax.
|
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Hooligans Of War Insurgency
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 10:41:00 -
[4]
As you can't legally transfer ISK to cash this isn't an issue unless ofcourse IRS demand that you pay them ISK.
The distributed market hub
|
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 10:52:00 -
[5]
Actually the IRS and other taxing authorities (like the EU) could probably successfully challenge the clause that the isk is only owned by CCP.
The reason I believe it could be successfully challenged is the ongoing acceptance of Eve ISK for game time in lieu of any real world currency.
CCP could argue it was a promotional device, however I don't think that would beat a serious challenge.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
Thrust SSC
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:02:00 -
[6]
Never gonna happen.
We don't own anything. We're just changing 1's into 0's and vv on a database owned by CCP.
|
Mad Axe
Caldari Havoc Inc
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:08:00 -
[7]
Even if the could do that you can make so much paper work (a cuple of times a day) for them they wuld spend more cash on ink then they wuld gain from this
|
WisdomLikeSilence
High4Life SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:10:00 -
[8]
------unless of course IRS demand that you pay them ISK.
Knowing the IRS this may indeed be a possibility. One would hope that if this becomes the case it may become necessary to gank IRS Fed Customs agents and camp their stations.
|
Laboratus
Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:11:00 -
[9]
CCP owns everything, characters, in game items, isk, everything. You only have the end user licence to access and use those items. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Topaz Skydiver
Minmatar Narrative Freshfood
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua Actually the IRS and other taxing authorities (like the EU) could probably successfully challenge the clause that the isk is only owned by CCP.
The reason I believe it could be successfully challenged is the ongoing acceptance of Eve ISK for game time in lieu of any real world currency.
CCP could argue it was a promotional device, however I don't think that would beat a serious challenge.
Well, you don't pay for the isk itself, you pay for the service that another player transfers some of CCP's isk from his wallet to your wallet. --------------------------------------------- *snip* |
|
Frogzuk
Dragonian Freelancers KIA Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:17:00 -
[11]
actually, the point in the OP that really needs addressing by the IRS/ tax authorities are those people making a load of r/l money running business from ebay ! That imho is were the real problem sits.
As for EvE , one doesn't technically 'own' the isk it belongs to CCP. However, with any MMO if people are making money from selling game currency / goods then its not the game that need taxing but the seller making a profit and evading their country's tax laws should be paying tax.
This problem will just be gotten round by off shore bank accounts etc, places where your government cant touch your money ....
As for eve, i dont sell isk so its not an issue for me tbh.
DGF website Killboard |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:23:00 -
[12]
LEGALLY, this is a complete grey/foggy area no government dared yet stick its nose into. If the IRS can claim you even have to report value of goods you stole unless you return them in the same year (in other words, anything that came into your possession, no matter how) for tax purposes, and get you fined/jailed for tax fraud if not for stealing (because they couldn't prove it), then you can bet your behind they MIGHT have the audacity to eventually ATTEMPT to tax you real money for in-game property acquired.
However, yes, the major problem would be to (legally) establish that indeed, in-game goods DO become traded for real-world money on a regular basis, even if at drastically smaller rates compared to the total "in-game economy" value, and that even if CCP "punishes" and/or attempts to stop said trades. _
1|2|3 |
Neth'Rae
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:33:00 -
[13]
What's next, they are gonna tax boardgames like monopoly?
|
Sarah McTeef
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:36:00 -
[14]
Everyone is right to be concerned about this, they may set an arbitrary ISK to USD conversion ratio at anytime and begin taxing you! Not interested in owing BILLIONS in ISK to the government?!
I have the solution.
Send your ISK to McTeef Offshore Holding Concern. We will hold it in a tax exempt account that can be accessed by simple Eve-Mail transactions. You retain access to your ISK, but they won't be able to tax you on it.
ACT NOW
Send all deposits to Sarah McTeef, set the ISK transfer reason to "DEPOSIT". For security purposes accounts will only be accessible by the depositing character.
Act before the auditors do! |
Jaikar Isillia
Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:41:00 -
[15]
It will be a sad day for human kind when governments tax there people's play money.
|
zibelthurdos
Archron Dusyfe Industries Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sarah McTeef Everyone is right to be concerned about this, they may set an arbitrary ISK to USD conversion ratio at anytime and begin taxing you! Not interested in owing BILLIONS in ISK to the government?!
I have the solution.
Send your ISK to McTeef Offshore Holding Concern. We will hold it in a tax exempt account that can be accessed by simple Eve-Mail transactions. You retain access to your ISK, but they won't be able to tax you on it.
ACT NOW
Send all deposits to Sarah McTeef, set the ISK transfer reason to "DEPOSIT". For security purposes accounts will only be accessible by the depositing character.
Act before the auditors do!
i support this product and/or service ----------------------------------------------- --- EVE Online, Nowhere to run, Nowhere to Hide---, except apparently in noob corps |
Mira Spellholde
Amarr Griffin Inc. Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jaikar Isillia It will be a sad day for human kind when governments tax there people's play money.
The key words are 'human kind'. In the end, the most ******** idea's come from us, so even if it came to be, I guess I'd be surprised but at the same time I could say that I saw it coming. -----------------
|
Drykor
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 11:53:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana As you can't legally transfer ISK to cash this isn't an issue unless ofcourse IRS demand that you pay them ISK.
Well not sure how it works with the new GTC system but I think you used to be able to buy GTC's with isk and then sell GTC's for cash. And all legally by CCP, 'cause they were paid for it at some point at least. So CCP doesn't stand too strong there.
|
Dex Nederland
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 12:04:00 -
[19]
At the moment CCP legal owns all in game items, ideas, etc.
If we stick to what is within the EULA - a player can purchase GTC (time in the game) for a certain amount. Now I have purchased from CCP time on their servers, either using the GT Code or the GT Card. I can sell the Code in game for in-game currency (ISK), in which case I have sort of purchased ISK for $15. I can also purchase the Card and I can resell that card, gift the card to someone else, etc. So are the Code and Card equal in value? Do I as the player own the Code/Card/time on the server it provides?
Eve-Online, will not at the moment have the IRS on it. There is a huge bag of worms that follows taxing any in-game income. If you can tax my corps income then that puts value on that income and what happens the next time someone steals a lot of ISK from a corp, do they get arrested?
Second Life is in the odd position that players actually own the intellectual property and there is a set exchange rate back and forth between Linden $ and USD/EUROs. We do not create anything original in Eve (atm) and as such do not have intellectual rights to the items in game.
|
Laboratus
Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 12:14:00 -
[20]
However, think of the up sides. Since purchasing ships and equipment is neccecary for your livelihood, they will become tax deductible as tools of trade.
I can imagine sending a 1000 page appendix of my trade history every year, with my total balance changing only around 50m isk or so... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
|
WarlockX
Amarr Free Trade Corp Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 12:16:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sarah McTeef Everyone is right to be concerned about this, they may set an arbitrary ISK to USD conversion ratio at anytime and begin taxing you! Not interested in owing BILLIONS in ISK to the government?!
I have the solution.
Send your ISK to McTeef Offshore Holding Concern. We will hold it in a tax exempt account that can be accessed by simple Eve-Mail transactions. You retain access to your ISK, but they won't be able to tax you on it.
ACT NOW
Send all deposits to Sarah McTeef, set the ISK transfer reason to "DEPOSIT". For security purposes accounts will only be accessible by the depositing character.
Act before the auditors do!
ISK SENT! Please take good care of my 10 isk. ----------------------------------------------- "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation." |
Joshua Foiritain
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 12:17:00 -
[22]
Ill happily pay taxes, ill be paying in isk though, not in dollars or euros. Lets see how they like that -----
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 12:24:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana As you can't legally transfer ISK to cash this isn't an issue unless ofcourse IRS demand that you pay them ISK.
Hmm, an interresting thought. If we are to pay IRS ISK, they have to create a corp in EvE. If they create a corp, they can be war dec'ed.
Could be fun to blow up IRS ships
|
Xtreem
Gallente Naughty 40 Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 12:36:00 -
[24]
If they start taxing virtual money, does that not mean i will then go to jail for virtual murder and owning virtual guns etc :( sucks lol
|
BoBoZoBo
Foundation R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 13:04:00 -
[25]
Yeah, I dont think this will affect EVE as there is an official policy that pretty much prevents this.
There are other MMOs, like Second Life that this may affect.
On a positive note, ISK sellers could now face tax evasion charges from the government!
=========================
Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9 |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 13:06:00 -
[26]
hehe I guess the IRS COULD demand a % of in game money to use to play eve online :)
that would be a scary corp. for an us player. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room... |
Valan
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 13:11:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Valan on 12/10/2007 13:11:12 I can just see the reply to the IRS agent querying how much isk a player earnt that year from a GM.
'Sorry our logs don't show anything ask the client'
/start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig |
Kelron Queldine
Infinitus Odium The Church.
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 13:13:00 -
[28]
When it comes to MMOs where the trade of game currency for real currency is allowed and encouraged both ways, then I really don't see why it shouldn't be taxed. Some people make a living out of these games, and it should be taxed like any other way people make a living. I really don't understand much about legal complexities of taxation, but going on common sense (something a lot of governments seem to be lacking), it should surely only apply to people converting game assets and currency into real life currency. Seeing as such transactions aren't allowed by CCP, and that CCP owns all in game assets, I don't see how taxation like this could be applied to EVE. ---------------------------
Signatures are for the weak. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Sublime.
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 13:17:00 -
[29]
Originally by: WisdomLikeSilence ------unless of course IRS demand that you pay them ISK.
Nowwwww it is all becoming clear....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
|
van Uber
Loke Inc
|
Posted - 2007.10.12 13:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Terminus adacai The IRS and other taxing authorities have been looking at MMO's as a another way to raise income for governments.
Even if the IRS would follow through with this. Is it possible for them to do anything? The server is in London and subject to GB/EU law and taxation. Its usually very tricky to pry money from a service located outside of the country.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |