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Author	Topic
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:16:00 - [121] And now the niche Amarr had (best mid range (pulses)) is now gone with no Amarr fix in sight. I love how Amarr keep getting the shaft. Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:23:00 - [122] Originally by: Kelron Queldine Originally by: Ogul The Raven is not a viable close range ship. Increasing its damage to sub-par levels won't change that. Can you explain that for someone who doesn't fly Caldari? The only two reasons I can think of is that the torp damage is currently much lower than other close range weapons, which is being changed, and also that the Raven is slow. The speed doesn't seem like such a big issue as other close range ships will be coming to you anyway. By the way, I do agree that the torp range should be higher than it currently is on SiSi, but over 100km is far too much. Maybe 40-60km on a Raven would be reasonable? In a nutshell: To be close range you need an MWD and a web. The newly nerfed torps will make a mid slot damage mod (aka target painter) pretty much mandatory (2 would be better), which leaves you with 3 mid slots for a tank (and you will need a tank if you go close range against anything), and you still have no warp scrambler. Now you could think "well, fit an armor tank instead", which is impossible because 6 siege launchers already use up your grid. And you need the slots for damage mods anyway. However you do it, the new torp raven will do less damage, tank less and be slower than - for example - a blaster megathron. But it will have 10-20km more range. Wow. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:28:00 - [123] Originally by: Ogul In a nutshell: To be close range you need an MWD and a web. I really can't see why you need a web with 30km range, or an MWD particularly, unless you're fighting sniper ships. I do agree with you that the nerf is a bit too much, I just don't think it's as bad as you're making out. It would be reasonable to either lower the fitting requirements on siege launchers to bring them in line with other close range weapons, or to give them an extra 20km or so range over the current SiSi range. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:35:00 - [124] Originally by: Kelron Queldine I really can't see why you need a web with 30km range, or an MWD particularly, unless you're fighting sniper ships. If you are fit for damage and can't get into range, you are useless. The web is needed because you can't keep your mwd running forever. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:41:00 - [125] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Kelron Queldine I really can't see why you need a web with 30km range, or an MWD particularly, unless you're fighting sniper ships. If you are fit for damage and can't get into range, you are useless. The web is needed because you can't keep your mwd running forever. Yes, I know, but are we talking about a situation where both sides want to engage? Because if another short range BS wants to engage you in a Raven, he's unlikely to be able to do it outside of torp range. And if we're talking larger gangs, then I'd hope you'd have some tackler ships with you. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:47:00 - [126] Originally by: Kelron Queldine Yes, I know, but are we talking about a situation where both sides want to engage? Because if another short range BS wants to engage you in a Raven, he's unlikely to be able to do it outside of torp range. And if we're talking larger gangs, then I'd hope you'd have some tackler ships with you. In that case you could fit a 5 slot shield tank and a painter but I wouldn't expect this setup to perform well in the vast majority of scenarios. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:53:00 - [127] It depends what you call 'the vast majority of scenarios'. I don't think it would be very good for 0.0 fleet stuff, but that's not an area I have a lot of experience in. It wouldn't be much good for piracy (0.0 or low sec) or solo either, but that's nothing new. It should work fine in a smaller BS gang with support, or for camping or empire wars. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Lilian Long	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:54:00 - [128] Originally by: Matiaj AC Tempest, Neutron Megathron, Pulse Armageddon, can actually do full damage to HACs and CSs without dedicating 2-3 medslots to painters. Can't be full damage to HACs. Except the hac is mwd'ing and that without transversal. Those damage figures were probably for the 800mm autocannon, which has 400mm sig resolution. A deimos has 160m sig radius. That tells me that that AC tempest can't deal full damage to a stillstanding deimos.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:02:00 - [129] Originally by: Lilian Long Originally by: Matiaj AC Tempest, Neutron Megathron, Pulse Armageddon, can actually do full damage to HACs and CSs without dedicating 2-3 medslots to painters. Can't be full damage to HACs. Except the hac is mwd'ing and that without transversal. Those damage figures were probably for the 800mm autocannon, which has 400mm sig resolution. A deimos has 160m sig radius. That tells me that that AC tempest can't deal full damage to a stillstanding deimos. If both ships sit still you can have 1000m signature resolution and 1m sig radius and you will still hit 100%. The sig res/sig rad ratio is a tracking multiplier not a separate hit roll. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:06:00 - [130] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Kelron Queldine I really can't see why you need a web with 30km range, or an MWD particularly, unless you're fighting sniper ships. If you are fit for damage and can't get into range, you are useless. The web is needed because you can't keep your mwd running forever. He is saying the web isnt as valuable when you dont need to keep someone away ;)

Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:06:00 - [131] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Kelron Queldine Yes, I know, but are we talking about a situation where both sides want to engage? Because if another short range BS wants to engage you in a Raven, he's unlikely to be able to do it outside of torp range. And if we're talking larger gangs, then I'd hope you'd have some tackler ships with you. In that case you could fit a 5 slot shield tank and a painter but I wouldn't expect this setup to perform well in the vast majority of scenarios. And this is different from the maelstrom how? This is an excellent change for caldari and I agree with it, but it does take away the one last niche amarr had, medium ranged DPS at the BS level. Now ravens can outdamage geddons at 45km, and use no cap to do so.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:07:00 - [132] Hmm, higher damage against big targets? Am I sensing an attempt to make Torp a weapon of choice when killing caps/supercaps? ------------------------------------------------
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:23:00 - [133] Originally by: James Lyrus And, if CCP would see clear to switching 'guided missile precision' into 'missile precision' so it actually applied to more than half the weapons, that'd be lovely. While they're at it, they could make missile precision bonuses from implants & boosters apply to unguided warheads as well. The fact that Crash does not work with rockets, HAMs, or torpedoes severely dampens its usability. ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:29:00 - [134] Originally by: shinsushi Originally by: Akita T Well, the question still remains, IF they leave the current range changes on torps (hopefully not), then HAMs and Torps would have identical maxranges before ship skills... which is, to say the least, STUPID. Ummm.... HAMs go 20.25km with max skills. Wouldn't the new torps go out to 30km?? Only on a ship with a missile range bonus (like the Raven, missile flight speed). On unbonused ships, HAM range is identical to Torpedo range. 4 sec * 2250 m/sec = 9 km = 6 sec * 1500 m/sec At max skills, 9km1.51.5 = 20.25 km max range (but never ACTUALLY hit that far, more like 19.5 km or so tops) On a Raven, L5 Caldari BS, yeah, you do get roughly 30km. But only on the Raven and nothing else. _ 1\|2\|3
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:49:00 - [135] I'd just like to ask. What is the problem the changes solve? If it ain't broken, don't fix it... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:57:00 - [136] Originally by: Laboratus I'd just like to ask. What is the problem the changes solve? If it ain't broken, don't fix it... The problem of the Raven being a 'PvE ship' is the main one, I'd imagine. Being able to dish out 600+ DPS of the damage type of your choice at over 100km is brilliant for PvE. It's less useful in PvP because missiles take too long to reach the target in sniper fleet fights, and in close range fights the damage is considerably lower than the turret BS. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:03:00 - [137] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: shinsushi Originally by: Akita T Well, the question still remains, IF they leave the current range changes on torps (hopefully not), then HAMs and Torps would have identical maxranges before ship skills... which is, to say the least, STUPID. Ummm.... HAMs go 20.25km with max skills. Wouldn't the new torps go out to 30km?? Only on a ship with a missile range bonus (like the Raven, missile flight speed). On unbonused ships, HAM range is identical to Torpedo range. 4 sec * 2250 m/sec = 9 km = 6 sec * 1500 m/sec At max skills, 9km1.51.5 = 20.25 km max range (but never ACTUALLY hit that far, more like 19.5 km or so tops) On a Raven, L5 Caldari BS, yeah, you do get roughly 30km. But only on the Raven and nothing else. You make it sound like there are more than 2 ships that use torps. 20km range torps are perfectly fine on the phoon, 30km range torps is perfectly fine for the raven. In conclusion, its a lot of whining over nothing.
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:11:00 - [138] Edited by: Wrayeth on 13/10/2007 23:14:49 Originally by: Gamesguy 20km range torps are perfectly fine on the phoon, 30km range torps is perfectly fine for the raven. In conclusion, its a lot of whining over nothing. Not true, actually. Engagements do start within 30km, but they often don't stay within 30km as opponents maneuver around the battlefield. As such, the raven's immobility and the limited range of torpedos will make the torp raven much less useful. Engaging a gang that has a torp raven? Alrighty - MWD more than 30km from it. Suddenly, it's DPS stops for about 20 seconds while it switches to javelin torps, followed by its renewed fire doing a LOT less damage. Simply put, unless they significantly increase the raven's mobility (i.e. reduce mass and inertia modifier and move a high to a mid so it can fit MWD), it will still largely suck. Plus, it will be far and away less useful for the one thing it is currently good at: PvE. If the change actually made it good in PvP, then that would be fine (I would love to have reason to fly ravens in PvP again), but that, sadly, is not the case. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:19:00 - [139] Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:23:23 Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:21:30 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ogul In that case you could fit a 5 slot shield tank and a painter but I wouldn't expect this setup to perform well in the vast majority of scenarios. And this is different from the maelstrom how? Last time I checked the maelstrom was a turret ship (again 400m sig for its guns) that didn't need target painters. And its bonus is like a built-in shield boost amp (in effect: an additional mid slot). --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:25:00 - [140] Originally by: Ogul Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:23:23 Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:21:30 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ogul In that case you could fit a 5 slot shield tank and a painter but I wouldn't expect this setup to perform well in the vast majority of scenarios. And this is different from the maelstrom how? Last time I checked the maelstrom was a turret ship (again 400m sig for its guns) that didn't need target painters. And its bonus is like a built-in shield boost amp (in effect: an additional mid slot). Last I checked fall-off doesnt mean free damage, maelstrom with 3 falloff rigs is doing much less dps than the raven with 3 velocity rigs at 45km, not to mention the raven can just switch to javelin and still do 800DPS.

Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:25:00 - [141] Edited by: Laboratus on 13/10/2007 23:27:06 ok, consider target is a bs with MWD on. It's moving at ~1.3-1.5km/s depending on skills and ship. You'r missiles have speed of 1.5-3km/s and flight time of said 9s depending on skills and ship. The missiles are gaining the ship at a rate of 0-1600m/s, so the range you can expect to hit a ship is actually 0-15300m... This is not good. At all... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:27:00 - [142] Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 13/10/2007 23:14:49 Originally by: Gamesguy 20km range torps are perfectly fine on the phoon, 30km range torps is perfectly fine for the raven. In conclusion, its a lot of whining over nothing. Not true, actually. Engagements do start within 30km, but they often don't stay within 30km as opponents maneuver around the battlefield. As such, the raven's immobility and the limited range of torpedos will make the torp raven much less useful. Engaging a gang that has a torp raven? Alrighty - MWD more than 30km from it. Suddenly, it's DPS stops for about 20 seconds while it switches to javelin torps, followed by its renewed fire doing a LOT less damage. Simply put, unless they significantly increase the raven's mobility (i.e. reduce mass and inertia modifier and move a high to a mid so it can fit MWD), it will still largely suck. Plus, it will be far and away less useful for the one thing it is currently good at: PvE. If the change actually made it good in PvP, then that would be fine (I would love to have reason to fly ravens in PvP again), but that, sadly, is not the case. Oh please, while your entire gang including BS are mwding 30km doing no damage you just lost 2 battleships cause your turret ships cant hit **** while mwding but your enemy are hitting you perfectly fine. All this so their raven deal 200 less DPS? I'd gladly trade 200 dps for 2 of your battleships anytime.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:29:00 - [143] Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 13/10/2007 23:27:06 ok, consider target is a bs with MWD on. It's moving at ~1.3-1.5km/s depending on skills and ship. You'r missiles have speed of 1.5-3km/s and flight time of said 9s depending on skills and ship. The missiles are gaining the ship at a rate of 0-1600m/s, so the range you can expect to hit a ship is actually 0-15300m... This is not good. At all... It takes a bs like 20 seconds to get up to speed with a mwd, so thats 20 seconds of free damage, and what exactly is that bs gonna be doing to you with the mwd on? And is that before or after they get webbed by something called support?
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:32:00 - [144] Spamming 700+ dps at 150km while support tackles and good tank >> spamming 900 dps at 30km with support tackling and poor/no tank ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:33:00 - [145] Originally by: Laboratus Spamming 700+ dps at 150km while support tackles and good tank >> spamming 900 dps at 30km with support tackling and poor/no tank Please list the ships capable of dealing 700+ dps at 150km, and you might see the problem. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Tonkin D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:36:00 - [146] all i can say is thank god im using turrets now.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:39:00 - [147] Originally by: Laboratus Spamming 700+ dps at 150km while support tackles and good tank >> spamming 900 dps at 30km with support tackling and poor/no tank Which is why it's been nerfed. 700dps at 150km is utterly ridiculous. A Gank ship (which is what 900dps + drones is) should have little to no tank and be limited by range.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:45:00 - [148] Imho delayed dps and damage reduction from speed offsets the advantages nicely... Missiles are supposed to be fundamentally different, if the change is implemented, they are pretty much identical with small variations... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:48:00 - [149] Originally by: Laboratus Imho delayed dps and damage reduction from speed offsets the advantages nicely... Missiles are supposed to be fundamentally different, if the change is implemented, they are pretty much identical with small variations... Turret ships also have a kind of 'damage reduction from speed', if your target has the sense not to fly in a straight line. --------------------------- Vanilla Crazy Cake!
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:50:00 - [150] To avoid tracking you need to orbit just outside web range and orbit like crazy, or TD and orbit a bit slower, but with missiles, mwd on and zoom zoom is enough in any case... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats

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