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Crewman Rimmer
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:04:00 -
[1]
This is a simple referendum/vote. Please cut the below section and paste with a ôYesö or ôNoö only answer next to each option:
Introduce a PvP on/off switch at character creation: -Permanent =
-Sliding Scale (i.e. Criminal acts will make you an irreversible open target to those with PvP on over time) starts off but once on it stays on =
-0.0 Zones Temp Switch On PvP =
-Introduce more 0.0 zones (only answer if you answered "Yes" to the above question)=
-Secondary Server with a PvP option =
Remove the ability to ôGate Campö: =
Decrease the in game costs of PvP death (Insurance/Clone costs, Skill Loss): =
-Insurance option for full recovery of lost items (i.e. You get back the ship you just lost in the exact same condition with the exact same equip and cargo) =
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Crewman Rimmer
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:06:00 -
[2]
Introduce a PvP on/off switch at character creation: -Permanent = No
-Sliding Scale (i.e. Criminal acts will make you an irreversible open target to those with PvP on over time) starts off but once on it stays on = Yes
-0.0 Zones Temp Switch On PvP = Yes
-Introduce more 0.0 zones (only answer if you answered "Yes" to the above question)= Yes
-Secondary Server with a PvP option = No
Remove the ability to ôGate Campö: = Yes
Decrease the in game costs of PvP death (Insurance/Clone costs, Skill Loss): = Yes
-Insurance option for full recovery of lost items (i.e. You get back the ship you just lost in the exact same condition with the exact same equip and cargo) = Yes
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Jeremiah Quinn
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:07:00 -
[3]
Introduce a PvP on/off switch at character creation: -Permanent = No
-Sliding Scale (i.e. Criminal acts will make you an irreversible open target to those with PvP on over time) starts off but once on it stays on = Yes
-0.0 Zones Temp Switch On PvP = Yes
-Introduce more 0.0 zones (only answer if you answered "Yes" to the above question)= No
-Secondary Server with a PvP option = No
Remove the ability to ôGate Campö: = Yes
Decrease the in game costs of PvP death (Insurance/Clone costs, Skill Loss): = Yes
-Insurance option for full recovery of lost items (i.e. You get back the ship you just lost in the exact same condition with the exact same equip and cargo) = No
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Sith'ari Adas
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:08:00 -
[4]
Introduce a PvP on/off switch at character creation: -Permanent = Yes
-Sliding Scale (i.e. Criminal acts will make you an irreversible open target to those with PvP on over time) starts off but once on it stays on = Yes
-0.0 Zones Temp Switch On PvP = Yes
-Introduce more 0.0 zones (only answer if you answered "Yes" to the above question)= Yes
-Secondary Server with a PvP option = Yes
Remove the ability to ôGate Campö: = Yes
Decrease the in game costs of PvP death (Insurance/Clone costs, Skill Loss): = No
-Insurance option for full recovery of lost items (i.e. You get back the ship you just lost in the exact same condition with the exact same equip and cargo) = Yes
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Valandril
Caldari Resurrection R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:37:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Valandril on 18/10/2007 18:39:43 you love to reply couple times in your own pool ? I feel like on meeting of organization "WoW united playing eve-online" ---
Battlecarriers ! |
Crewman Rimmer
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Posted - 2007.10.18 20:19:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Crewman Rimmer on 18/10/2007 20:21:07 Meant to make just one reply. And what about you? Don't have an opinion or care to vote one way or the other?
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Wardo21
The Arcanum
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Posted - 2007.10.18 20:39:00 -
[7]
I don't think any of it needs changing except the permanant part of the security hit. Once a criminal always a criminal, regardless of how many NPC Pirates you kill. PC Pirates on the other hand I could still see that improving your security rating.
Full on insurance for cargo and modules/rigs sounds nice but will be full of questions and possible exploits. What value are you going to place on the items vs the risk of loss. You would have to take into account the desitnations and travel routes vs the risk of loss on that path. Then ask, do you use the base cost in the DB to set the cost of the insurance, or market stats. It would have to be per load, since insuring a load of veld vs a load of trit (as a simple example) would have way different "costs" associated with the insurance based on the different values of the cargo. What about refitting? If I refit do I loose the insurance and have to buy it again? Do I get a credit for the unused time?
If you don't like something that is so central to the EVE game, perhaps you have chosen the wrong game to play. (Says the almost 2 years old admitted empire hugging carebearesque mission runner.) I get my 15$ worth every month playing the game in a way that's enjoyable for me. I respect the design decision of a lawless area you can go and own by force. I may disagree with some other design decisions, but I've adapted and accepted that this game is played this way. Please don't ask for a SWG Jedi type game changing event...
Wardo21
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Crewman Rimmer
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Posted - 2007.10.18 21:26:00 -
[8]
I want to start by saying I really hoped I could just get some simple Yes/No votes on some ideas.
Quote: I don't think any of it needs changing except the permanant part of the security hit. Once a criminal always a criminal, regardless of how many NPC Pirates you kill. PC Pirates on the other hand I could still see that improving your security rating.
This part I am not all that familiar with but I would say that if you commit crimes against other players you pay a permanent price. If you killed my brother and then turned around and killed some drug dealer pimp it will not make me forgive you for killing my brother. So while I may not seek out my own revenge you should still face a penalty.
Quote: Full on insurance for cargo and modules/rigs sounds nice but will be full of questions and possible exploits. What value are you going to place on the items vs the risk of loss. You would have to take into account the desitnations and travel routes vs the risk of loss on that path. Then ask, do you use the base cost in the DB to set the cost of the insurance, or market stats. It would have to be per load, since insuring a load of veld vs a load of trit (as a simple example) would have way different "costs" associated with the insurance based on the different values of the cargo. What about refitting? If I refit do I loose the insurance and have to buy it again? Do I get a credit for the unused time?
I would say that as the insurance fee is not deducted until your ship is destroyed or you are pod killed that the cost/payout would then be able to reflect whatever was most current.
Quote: If you don't like something that is so central to the EVE game, perhaps you have chosen the wrong game to play.
This is a very old and very tired line. The only thing central to EVE is role-play. A PvP on/off switch forces that role-play on those who abuse the current gate-camping/noob-blasting system. If more people play the game because they get a choice to PvP or not to PvP. Then the market booms because items are in more demand. Long term players will always reap the rewards fiscally of the infusion of new blood in a game. Speaking from a programmers perspective these suggested changes would be fairly easy to implement.
Quote: I respect the design decision of a lawless area you can go and own by force.
I agree fully. All 0.0 systems being free for all PvP and the addition of more 0.0 systems would further enable this idea. Perhaps put a few in key jump locations where going "around" currently takes 5 to 10 jumps. At least this way there is no debate "Go in there and you'll probably get your butt blown out from under you". Furthermore this would open up a whole new aspect of the game ... real "Bounty Hunting". Pirates of old had few places to hide so should the player pirates of EVE. If you know you can probably find your prey in one place or another this would encourage a new rash of bounty hunters.
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Vorok
Silver Aria
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Posted - 2007.10.18 23:12:00 -
[9]
I'll just keep it short and answer "no" to all of the above. EVE is a conflict game and conflict will always be a part of it. Remove the conflict and you destroy the very idea of the game.
Conflict exists even in the market. Undercutting is a conflict between two players - should there be a flag to prohibit it? What about those rich jerks who can afford the insane prices of faction and officer gear? The very fact that they can afford it makes it so expensive - even that's conflict! Should we have an "items are cheaper" flag to balance it?
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2007.10.18 23:32:00 -
[10]
No to all.
You can't win a war if dying doesn't come with losses.
You can't cut off supplies if the enemy can jump from safe 0.1 straight to the POS or station in 0.0, you need that lowsec buffer. Nor can you cut off supplies if the suppliers just turn off PvP.
Gate camps are annoying, but there are several ways to deal with them, thus they don't need to be taken out of the game.
Lastly, if you don't want to PvP, stay in an npc corp and in 0.5 to 1.0 and don't haul expensive goods afk. You'll never be attacked by another player then, unless you manage to really **** someone off.
Quote: Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Crewman Rimmer
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Posted - 2007.10.18 23:40:00 -
[11]
Quote: I'll just keep it short and answer "no" to all of the above. EVE is a conflict game and conflict will always be a part of it. Remove the conflict and you destroy the very idea of the game.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, EVE is a role-playing game. You destroy nothing by giving new players a chance to get somewhere before you blow every ship out from under them.
Quote: Conflict exists even in the market. Undercutting is a conflict between two players - should there be a flag to prohibit it? What about those rich jerks who can afford the insane prices of faction and officer gear? The very fact that they can afford it makes it so expensive - even that's conflict! Should we have an "items are cheaper" flag to balance it?
Undercutting does not cost nearly as much as having your ship destroyed when you just spent every ISK to rig it or pod killing on skill points. And you can still have plenty of conflict. If you are correct and most want to PvP then you will have plenty of targets.
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Crewman Rimmer
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Posted - 2007.10.18 23:46:00 -
[12]
Quote: You can't win a war if dying doesn't come with losses.
You can still have losses and plenty of war with those that want it.
Quote: You can't cut off supplies if the enemy can jump from safe 0.1 straight to the POS or station in 0.0, you need that lowsec buffer. Nor can you cut off supplies if the suppliers just turn off PvP.
Sure you can if you keep the war on override. Two corps at war = all players and their alts are open season in said war. Makes that easy.
Quote: Gate camps are annoying, but there are several ways to deal with them, thus they don't need to be taken out of the game.
Actually they most definatly do. For a new player there is pretty much no way around a gate camp and those that gate camp don't seem to give anyone a break no matter what.
Quote: Lastly, if you don't want to PvP, stay in an npc corp and in 0.5 to 1.0 and don't haul expensive goods afk. You'll never be attacked by another player then, unless you manage to really **** someone off.
If I pay the same amount to play a game as you do I should be able to go to the majority of the zones and do it in my own fashion. If I don't want to participate in getting my butt shot off by six wife beaters with too much free time on their hands then I should be able to do so.
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2007.10.19 00:05:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Crewman Rimmer Actually they most definatly do. For a new player there is pretty much no way around a gate camp and those that gate camp don't seem to give anyone a break no matter what.
Use the map (recent ship/podkills statistics): Available to new player. Scout ahead with shuttle (with alt if you have expensive implants): Available to new player. Don't go low-sec: Available to new player.
Originally by: Crewman Rimmer If I pay the same amount to play a game as you do I should be able to go to the majority of the zones and do it in my own fashion. If I don't want to participate in getting my butt shot off by six wife beaters with too much free time on their hands then I should be able to do so.
Well, CCP has made it quite clear over the years that this is a PvP game at every level. It's been designed and developed to support PvP. PvP creates the demand on the market. PvP keeps the players playing. Most people burn out on PvE within the year. We don't even have to bother to reply to you on this subject, since CCP won't implement any of your suggestions anyway. The reason I reply is because I rather see you realize this now and either accept it and learn to love it or save you several months of subscription fees while hoping for changes that will never come.
Quote: Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Reggie Stoneloader
Teikoku Trade Conglomerate Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2007.10.19 00:05:00 -
[14]
The simple economics of it makes it unfeasible. "Safe" characters could be used to make scads of money with no real risk, and then the proceeds could be transferred to PvP characters, who could then fight without any fear of losing what was so easy to get.
Try pirating some time. Camp a gate, kill everything that comes through. You'll need about 200M isk to set up your command ship to do it really effectively. See how long it takes you to recover your investment with that lifestyle, and if you meet a bigger fish, or a bunch of smaller ones, you get to start all over again.
Fear of losing money keeps the pirate population down. The proposed change here would eliminate that and turn PvP into what the OP seems to think it already is.
>=====My Current Crusades=====< Security Status
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Isan Danderoda
Strix Armaments and Defence Acheron Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.19 00:52:00 -
[15]
As much as I really don't like getting ganked at a gate camp or trying to do much of anything in low-sec or 0.0 (especially in a ship worth anything), I find that the non-consensual PvP atmosphere really makes Eve what it is.
I like being on my toes. Keeps things exciting.
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Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
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Posted - 2007.10.19 01:28:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 19/10/2007 01:37:44 Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 19/10/2007 01:34:30 The concept itself is quite absurd. Tip 1: You do not play to make X million per hour. You do this to have fun. If you don't sell isk for dollar, making 200 million per hour is not a good reason to play the game but having fun in some low profit cosmos missions is.
Tip 2: 0.0/lowsec is not a promise land of amazing and fascinating pve. In fact, killing rats on belts is extremly tedius, boring and repeatable. Its also not really more profitable then well organised mission running in empire (unfortunately). There is really no reason to go there and no fun to be there, if you do not find joy in risk, fighting, running, hunting, teamwork, competition and being part of a player made miniature state. If You don't want to participate in that, lowsec will give you nothing while your presence will sploil game for the normal lowsec dwellers.
There is also trade and industry in lowsec. They are intresting and profitable because there is risk. With no risk, they would be just identical as those in empire, while destroying the game for normal lowsec traders and producers.
There are people who do not like fighting but like lowsec/0.0. thoe are people who just enjoy the risk and the thrill, they have satisfaction each time they survive in a hauler and when their corpmates thank them for industrial support of their wars, and if they pvp (and they have to, sometimes), they enjoy their alliance victories/survival just like pvpers. They can be newbies and they can be carebears, but they have to love the thrill. If you are not such a person, turning 3/4 of Eve universe into your safe playground will give you no more joy then empire anyway.
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and increased cost of pvp loss? thats quite bad too. This means newbies and carebears will be less likely to take any risks and ever go to 0.0, staying in 0.0 will become more expensive and less profitable and advantage of old pvp veterans over newbies will be even bigger.
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Vorok
Silver Aria
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Posted - 2007.10.19 02:01:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Crewman Rimmer Wrong, wrong, wrong, EVE is a role-playing game. You destroy nothing by giving new players a chance to get somewhere before you blow every ship out from under them.
That's where you're wrong. EVE is first and foremost a PVP game which revolves around killing other people. The back story of EVE is important, and to many players the driving reason behind their play, but CCP never forces players to partake in it Besides, new players are 99% safe in high-sec unless they do something silly.
I've had my fair share of PVP, and I can tell you that no one enjoys losing a ship. The last time I lost a battleship, I certainly wasn't thanking the gank squad for stopping by. The last time I killed a HAC, you bet I was smiling with sadistic glee, but he certainly wasn't cheering for me. You learn to accept losing ships after a while.
PVP isn't as bad as you think it is. The sooner you shrug away the fear and accept that you will lose ships, the better it will be for you. But mMaybe PVP isn't your cup of tea - 99% of the time you can avoid the risks that lead to being killed. If you really want to avoid fighting, you'll need to find another aspect of the game to deal with conflict. You can hire mercenaries to protect your corp. Spy and infiltrate. You can pay an alliance rent to operate in their 0.0 space. You can ally with corps that have PVP experience.
Conflict will NEVER disappear from EVE, but there are other ways to get what you want besides combat. Just don't expect to circumvent the fact that someone else can shoot you any more than a PVPer should expect his next ship to build itself and park on its own (fitted of course) in his hangar. Accept that you will at some point enter some form of conflict - it's part of the game.
Originally by: Washell Olivaw The reason I reply is because I rather see you realize this now and either accept it and learn to love it or save you several months of subscription fees while hoping for changes that will never come.
Agreed - I replied for the same reason. PVP in EVE is a massive thrill once you get over the fear. Either learn to love it, enjoy the rest of EVE and put up with avoiding (and sometimes falling prey to) it, or find a better game for your tastes.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.10.19 02:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Crewman Rimmer
Quote: I'll just keep it short and answer "no" to all of the above. EVE is a conflict game and conflict will always be a part of it. Remove the conflict and you destroy the very idea of the game.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, EVE is a role-playing game. You destroy nothing by giving new players a chance to get somewhere before you blow every ship out from under them.
This isn't a ballot I'm going to dignify with a vote, but I found your comment about EVE being (apparently exclusively) a role-playing game interesting, in light of this unofficial post from a developer just today: Roleplay in EVE.
It's unofficial, like I said, though very much in line with other things I've read from EVE's producers and developers over the time I've been playing. It's well worth the read as I think it points out some of the conceptual building blocks of this big, merciless, threatening universe we're playing in.
"On the plus side though, you're playing probably the only MMO in existence where the vast majority of the playerbase act completely in keeping with the prime fiction the vast majority of the time."
Food for thought.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Oldin Kinrod
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Posted - 2007.10.19 04:35:00 -
[19]
This coming from a "carebear" that has had his share of losing ships and PvP.
After reading the forums over the past few days there seems to be more and more complaints on how this should change, or that is overpowered etc. When I started playing over a year ago I was shocked to find how hostile EVE was, and how quickly one can go from having fun to OMGWTFBBQ!! YOU BLEW UP MY SHIP!!!
But after the first loss I learnt that it was my own fault - the can flipping pirate had tricked me and I fell for it, and in turn losing my first cruiser and having little to no ISK to buy a new one. It happens. After that I had someone else try the same trick, and ended up having a long conversation about EVE and the PvP elements - where I went wrong in my setup, what I should have done etc.
This is the core idea behind EVE, the conflict between players and the 'fun' (interpret how you wish) that ensues. If you want an MMO with Roleplaying at it's core, WoW is this way --->. Or any of the other MMOs out there. EVE is EVE, and that's what makes it so great. While PvP can be a bit of a burden with all the "exploits" as I've heard them called (can flipping, 'stealing' wrecks) that is the nature of EVE. If you don't like the way someone is doing something, TOUGH! Do you expect CCP to hold your hand and tell the player off??? Just like in the real world, people will be jerks, pick on you, steal your stuff - the difference in EVE is that it's up to you to deal with it. Is that 20K ore that some guy stole really worth your 5mil isk ship? Then don't try and take it back. If it bothers you that much, then don't play EVE - it's obviously not for you.
The reasons I like EVE so much is for the reasons that you (the OP) are asking us to vote on. There is more riding in EVE than any other MMO out there, and to change any and all that you have posted would ruin all that EVE has become. Don't like PvP - Live in High sec. Don't like the costs of death? Don't fly with stuff you can't afford to lose. These IMO are why I play EVE - I actually have to think about what it is I'm doing and what I may/may not run into.
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Macro Slasher
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Posted - 2007.10.22 08:56:00 -
[20]
Eve is 100% PVP, all systems, everywhere, always. If you disagree tell me where you are so I can come and grief you out of the game. K thx bye.
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