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QuickGonzalez
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.22 22:59:00 -
[1]
Hello
My name is Gonzalez im Civire and i come from far away country called Mexico.
At first i started wondering why does no one use T2 fury cruise missiles and rage torps in pvp. Then something hit me and I realised that if you use those missiles then you are meant to be passive tanking the ship so that the -5% cap recharge penalty doesnt nerf you to amarr level.
I dont understand why can every other caldari missile (and sometimes minmatar) ship passive tank except for the raven and, if you must, the rokh. I cant find a single reason to justify this except for the one when you fit an X-Large Shield Extender on batlle cruiser or even cruiser sized ships. With weaponless setups their tank could be made seriously overpowered, but this must also apply for fitting large extenders on the cruisers and medium on frigates/destroyers (sabre *cough*), and surely you can somehow prevent this instead of just completey ignoring this module and leaving it out of the game.
Or maybe its just one_of_those_things_ccp_is_working_on?
Constructive comments only please.
Thanks in advance. --- Alt: Thunder Sovereign |
Gladiator Jonny
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.22 23:00:00 -
[2]
Because we dont want them.
Imagine fitting them on a drake....
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QuickGonzalez
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.22 23:05:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Gladiator Jonny Because we dont want them.
Imagine fitting them on a drake....
imagined... nothing happened... it will be fine if they get 400pg fitting requirement as the should --- Alt: Thunder Sovereign |
Incantare
Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.22 23:13:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Incantare on 22/10/2007 23:14:25
Meh, they don't exist because armor tankers are afraid of passive (regen) shield tanks.
I agree with giving them huge pg reqs so they can only be fit on battleships which don't have stellar regen to begin with. It's a little silly having to fit large extenders to passive (hp) tank a Raven or Rokh right now.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.10.22 23:26:00 -
[5]
It'd be an interesting game balance matter I feel.
If the 4 races were 'specialised' in tanking (as seems to be starting to happen, a bit).
Amarr: Passive armour - resists bonuses favouring plating up, and repping if you survive. Gallente: Active armour - favouring repper usage, able to fit and run dual reps. Minmatar: Active shield - shield boosting bonuses all 'round. Maybe a few cap use efficiency bonuses too. Caldari: Passive shield - resistance bonuses, shield HP bonuses. All the things that favour not running a booster at all.
I mean, it's kinda that way now, but ... some are a bit more limited in those niches than others.
I'd suggest cap needs a good look though - of these, they all need 'good' cap except caldari - non railboats.
Amarr need it for lasers, Gallente for guns and reps, minmatar for shield boosters, and Caldari for railguns.
*shrug*. I think it'd be interesting to see this. Oh, and the Rokh has problems with passive tanking, because it's a BS - so has bad recharge on shields - and it's cap intensive - so SPRs don't work. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP |
Acoco Osiris
Gallente Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.10.22 23:54:00 -
[6]
I heard a rumor that XL extenders are coming with Rev III. Only a rumor though. And I'm too lazy to log on Sisi. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars. |
Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.10.23 02:04:00 -
[7]
Wouldn't an XL-extended passive Widow/Scorpion have a rather unbalanced tank?
In fact effective passive tanking battleships would give Minmatar and Caldari complete supremacy in fleet warfare and make them the ships of choice for solo and gangs due to having both the benefits of a hit-point tank and a rep.
I wouldn't mind (Caldari BS V) but methinks this would leave the other races in the dust.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.23 03:34:00 -
[8]
nothing on sisi about it.
and, for the record, 1 month to go before the tentative release of rev3, why the hell are none of the things they are putting in (new ships, new drones, etc..) on sisi yet
other than that, I will add nothing to this thread. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.23 03:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: QuickGonzalez Hello
My name is Gonzalez im Civire and i come from far away country called Mexico.
At first i started wondering why does no one use T2 fury cruise missiles and rage torps in pvp. Then something hit me and I realised that if you use those missiles then you are meant to be passive tanking the ship so that the -5% cap recharge penalty doesnt nerf you to amarr level.
I dont understand why can every other caldari missile (and sometimes minmatar) ship passive tank except for the raven and, if you must, the rokh. I cant find a single reason to justify this except for the one when you fit an X-Large Shield Extender on batlle cruiser or even cruiser sized ships. With weaponless setups their tank could be made seriously overpowered, but this must also apply for fitting large extenders on the cruisers and medium on frigates/destroyers (sabre *cough*), and surely you can somehow prevent this instead of just completey ignoring this module and leaving it out of the game.
Or maybe its just one_of_those_things_ccp_is_working_on?
Constructive comments only please.
Thanks in advance.
Because there arn't any XL Armor repairers. Stop posting.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] Blood Corsairs - Day One [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y |
QuickGonzalez
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.23 17:49:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: QuickGonzalez Hello
My name is Gonzalez im Civire and i come from far away country called Mexico.
At first i started wondering why does no one use T2 fury cruise missiles and rage torps in pvp. Then something hit me and I realised that if you use those missiles then you are meant to be passive tanking the ship so that the -5% cap recharge penalty doesnt nerf you to amarr level.
I dont understand why can every other caldari missile (and sometimes minmatar) ship passive tank except for the raven and, if you must, the rokh. I cant find a single reason to justify this except for the one when you fit an X-Large Shield Extender on batlle cruiser or even cruiser sized ships. With weaponless setups their tank could be made seriously overpowered, but this must also apply for fitting large extenders on the cruisers and medium on frigates/destroyers (sabre *cough*), and surely you can somehow prevent this instead of just completey ignoring this module and leaving it out of the game.
Or maybe its just one_of_those_things_ccp_is_working_on?
Constructive comments only please.
Thanks in advance.
Because there arn't any XL Armor repairers. Stop posting.
noooooo! you kidding?!! so you are saying there isnt any battleship class repairers? no? than what the hell is your point? stfu and go home --- Alt: Thunder Sovereign |
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Katrina Coreli
toxicology
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Posted - 2007.10.23 18:05:00 -
[11]
Nice language. The Large Shield are Battleship sized extenders just like 1600 plates are battleship sized extenders. Problem is Large Extenders have relativly low fitting reqs and various perks with BC and Cruiser recharge made it advantageous to fit Large Extenders on under sized ships.
If anything Large Extenders should have their fitting reqs increased and shield capacity but XL Extenders? Sorry m8, not going to happen and isnt planned.
THE CAKE IS A LIE! |
Subruz
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Posted - 2007.10.23 18:13:00 -
[12]
I don't see why shield tanking needs to be more skill intensive than armor tanking or why it needs to give up mids in order to do something lows can do just aswell, thereby voiding their ships of any good solo capability. Maybe if it got anything in return but, really... it doesn't.
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QuickGonzalez
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.23 18:19:00 -
[13]
Edited by: QuickGonzalez on 23/10/2007 18:19:48 large shield extenders are not battleship class modules. if they were, then you wouldnt be able to fit them on vagas. and thanks for telling me that ccp are not planning to be adding XL Sh extenders to the game, kinda worked it out myself=D its no wonder if they have not added them from the beggining, im just looking for the reasons why. --- Alt: Thunder Sovereign |
Katrina Coreli
toxicology
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Posted - 2007.10.23 19:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: QuickGonzalez Edited by: QuickGonzalez on 23/10/2007 18:19:48 large shield extenders are not battleship class modules. if they were, then you wouldnt be able to fit them on vagas. and thanks for telling me that ccp are not planning to be adding XL Sh extenders to the game, kinda worked it out myself=D its no wonder if they have not added them from the beggining, im just looking for the reasons why.
Prehaps because CCP feels passive tanking would be overpowered on BSes or didnt intend it from the off.
You can already get a BS tank on a Drake with passive tanking so imagine the passive tank you could get on a BS.
Not needed, and would add nothing to the game except for presenting new balence issues.
Just increase the fitting and capacity on Large Extenders slightly and be done with the matter.
THE CAKE IS A LIE! |
Subruz
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Posted - 2007.10.23 19:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Katrina Coreli
Originally by: QuickGonzalez You can already get a BS tank on a Drake with passive tanking so imagine the passive tank you could get on a BS....
....Just increase the fitting and capacity on Large Extenders slightly and be done with the matter.
What does exactly a shieldtanking BS get in return for its lack of mids or its slow cap regen (painful when making many jumps, turning off SPRs is risky)? Nothing, this is why passive tanks aren't very popular on BSs.
- If passive tanked BSs could become really awesome tanks while still doing respectable (remember that the # of BCU's is limited since you need SPRs, not to mention field purger rigs) that'd be much welcomed upswing imo for caldari battleships in PvP (assuming they could fit the darn things).
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QuickGonzalez
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.23 19:41:00 -
[16]
i dunno really, a good tank was put there on drakes in order to compensate for the lack of damage. maybe same should be done for the raven so it can be finally used in pvp as it was intended to, not as dampening - armor tanking - mwding - **** knows what --- Alt: Thunder Sovereign |
Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.10.23 19:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Acoco Osiris I heard a rumor that XL extenders are coming with Rev III. Only a rumor though. And I'm too lazy to log on Sisi.
I'm pretty sure that what was meant are faction large shield extenders. Some of them have been spotted through the magic crystal ball.
Buff room for large link addresses in sigs plz :( |
Balrog Valarauko
Old Farts Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.10.23 20:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ishina Fel
Originally by: Acoco Osiris I heard a rumor that XL extenders are coming with Rev III. Only a rumor though. And I'm too lazy to log on Sisi.
I'm pretty sure that what was meant are faction large shield extenders. Some of them have been spotted through the magic crystal ball.
Dammit, Ishina! Stop telling people about our magic crystal ball!
Oh, and please, no one will ever take away my Vulture with 4x Large Ext. II's. Passive Tank O' Death.
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Acoco Osiris
Gallente Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.10.23 21:22:00 -
[19]
As for the above player commenting "there are no XL extenders because there are no XL reppers", shield gear differs from armor gear. Appropriately sized shield gear is real easy to fit, but doesn't give the sort of benefit you'd expect. One size over is relatively tough to fit, and oversized shield boosters are hell to try to run, but give a very nice benefit.
I would agree with XL shield extenders only if A, their PG use was way beyond the pale for battlecruisers, and B, they didn't create any new tanking monstrosities. We do NOT need a battleship which suddenly becomes to other battleships as the Drake is to, say, the Harby. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars. |
shinsushi
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.23 21:27:00 -
[20]
ok, to clearify this thread.
Xlarge shield booster= nothing Large sheild booster= Large armor repper
1600MM plate= nothing 800MM plate = Large shield extender
Its that simple. Well, other than the fact that large sheild extenders give too many HPs.
Check it out in the database. All the rest of the extenders match their respective plates perfectly, where they have counterparts.
The module that is actually missing is Shield boost amps. Armor has nothing comparable to it.
AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 |
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Incantare
Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.23 21:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Acoco Osiris
I would agree with XL shield extenders only if A, their PG use was way beyond the pale for battlecruisers, and B, they didn't create any new tanking monstrosities. We do NOT need a battleship which suddenly becomes to other battleships as the Drake is to, say, the Harby.
Do you think Caldari pilots want a brick with no dps that can't tackle with no propulsion mod? Nah, X-large extenders would be nice so we can have some buffer while fitting tackling gear in our mids the same way armor tankers can have a buffer tank with 1600mm plates in a gank fit.
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Incantare
Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.23 21:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: shinsushi ok, to clearify this thread. Xlarge shield booster= nothing Large sheild booster= Large armor repper
No. X-L shield booster + boost amp ~ 2 lar. It uses two slots, tanks slightly more while using slightly less cap.
A large shield booster isn't a large armor repper. Try fitting a large armor rep on a BC, doesn't work, and fitting a twin LSB tank, lol, it's completly inefficient.
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Ishina Fel
Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.10.23 21:32:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Ishina Fel on 23/10/2007 21:32:53
Originally by: shinsushi The module that is actually missing is Shield boost amps. Armor has nothing comparable to it.
armor tankers fit 2 reppers. Shield tankers fit a booster and a boost amp. In this configuration, armor tankers restore slightly more hp per second, at slightly more hp/cap efficiency, and eat slightly more cap over the same time.
Buff room for large link addresses in sigs plz :( |
Gladiator Jonny
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.23 22:31:00 -
[24]
Originally by: James Lyrus It'd be an interesting game balance matter I feel.
If the 4 races were 'specialised' in tanking (as seems to be starting to happen, a bit).
Amarr: Gank, Buffer/duel rep + resistance/nano Gallente: Gank, Buffer/no tank/duel rep/nano Minmatar: Nano/shield/Nano/armor/nano Caldari: Passive shield/Armor buffer/active shield/nano/Damps.
Specialised much.
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QuickGonzalez
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.24 12:04:00 -
[25]
Originally by: shinsushi ok, to clearify this thread.
Xlarge shield booster= nothing Large sheild booster= Large armor repper
1600MM plate= nothing 800MM plate = Large shield extender
Its that simple. Well, other than the fact that large sheild extenders give too many HPs.
Check it out in the database. All the rest of the extenders match their respective plates perfectly, where they have counterparts.
The module that is actually missing is Shield boost amps. Armor has nothing comparable to it.
omg no no no, large shield booster is not a battleship module, however large armor repairer is. you fit large shield boosterers on cruisers and battlecruisers, now try to fit large rep on either of those. of course you cant, they have massive PG requirement unlike large shield booster, now think about it
why are all armor tankers so jelous of those x-l shield booster? even though they give a large rep per seconds but they also enormous capacitor needs and are very inefficient capacitor to rep amount wise --- Alt: Thunder Sovereign |
Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.24 12:27:00 -
[26]
Actually an x-large booster + t1 SBA is more capefficient than a dual LAR2 setup.
Anyway - the reason why there are no x-l SE is simple - because plates and extenders are not the same thing.
It is for a non-battleship FAR easier to increase its HP by extenders than by plates. It is for a battleship easier to increase its HP by plates than by extenders.
Plates & extenders have different advantages and disadvantages.
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Odium47
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Posted - 2007.10.24 14:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Because there arn't any XL Armor repairers. Stop posting.
Yes there are. They are called Corpum !
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shinsushi
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.24 15:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Incantare Edited by: Incantare on 23/10/2007 21:44:16
Originally by: shinsushi ok, to clearify this thread. Xlarge shield booster= nothing Large sheild booster= Large armor repper
No. X-L shield booster + boost amp ~ 2 lar. It uses two slots, tanks slightly more while using slightly more cap / sec.
A large shield booster isn't a large armor repper. Try fitting a large armor rep on a BC, doesn't work, and fitting a twin LSB tank, lol, it's completly inefficient.
No, 2 large sheild boosters = 1 X-large.
Check out this progression
2 SAR=1 MAR, 2 MAR = 1 LAR Guess what follows it? sheilds!!!
Trust me I have gone over this all before. Try doing a search and you will see me and liang battling it out about this before we come to a sensible conclusion.
AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 |
Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.24 15:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: Incantare No. X-L shield booster + boost amp ~ 2 lar...
No, 2 large sheild boosters = 1 X-large.
Check out this progression
2 SAR=1 MAR, 2 MAR = 1 LAR
2 LSB = 1 X-LSB
and
1 X-LSB + SBA = 2 LAR
is not mutually exclusive.
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Xaldor
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Posted - 2007.10.24 15:30:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Xaldor on 24/10/2007 15:30:57
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