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shinsushi
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.24 15:57:00 -
[1]
Edited by: shinsushi on 24/10/2007 15:58:59 I have heard this alot, talk about lasers having a built in damage bonus, and I simply do not believe this to be the case anymore. Lets investigate.
So, Lasers supposedly have this built in damage bonus and to balance it out, super high cap usage. The high cap usage is balanced out by a -10% per level capacitor usage of lasers on primarily laser boats, to bring them back in-line with the other turret types. Pulse lasers are supposed to be long range, and have the second highest damage, not quite measuring up to Blasters. Beams are supposed to be the Blasters of long range, THE long range damage platform. As I will show, a similar situation happens with Artillery and Blasters.
Artillery are balanced around a -5% RoF per lvl bonus found on minmatar arty boats. Basically, ACs and Arties come with a pre-nerfed rate of fire, which is brought back in-line with the bonuses found on minmatar ships, with the hopeful effect of keeping other races from fitting them. Artillery as supposed to be THE alpha strike weapon, with decent range, no cap use and the lowest damage over time. Autocannos are supposed to be versitile weapons, varying damage types and working well at a variety of ranges coupled with no capacitor need and extremely easy fitting costs... ACs are supposed to be the least damaging weapon in RAW DPS, but make up for it with damage selection. This is in-line with the minmatar design philosophy, "jack of all trades, master of none(cept speed)."
Rails and Blasters are balanced around a +5% Damage per lvl found on gallente gun boats. While blasters are meant to be THE damage platforms of weapons, Railguns are supposed to be THE long range gun. Both of these turrets function at sub-par levels without this 5% per lvl to damage.
Now, taking all this into account, when looking at Lasers vs Hybrids vs Artilleries, these bonuses must be applied to their respective turrets in order to see a true picture of where each stands. Follows is a chart with each turret and their respective bonuses applied.
Chart(25% dmg bonus removed from the tempest.)
As you can clearly see, Tachyons are even matched with railguns out about 36 kilometers, and outdamaged above that, while Artillery pass lasers at 90 km where they become comparable to rails. This is unacceptable, and clearly shows that the "built in damage bonus" is either a fallacy or simply not enough.
Pulse lasers end up being the bottom of the damaging weapons out to 14 kilometers (outdamaged by ACs to 11), above 18km they are outdamaged by railguns and tachyons until 23km, where they become outdamaged by artilleries aswell. This leaves Pulse lasers about a 4 km window of being the top damaging turret. Of course, pulses track much better than long-range weapons.
Hope this clears things up for you guys.
AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:01:00 -
[2]
People claim "Laser has built in damage bonus". I'll say: "I think not" after looking at these pretty pictures.
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Sarah Benthwell
Dolaris Holdings
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:06:00 -
[3]
Stop making threads, you're stupid, your threads are stupid.
Go away. _______ shigs |
shinsushi
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:07:00 -
[4]
So, how do you fix it? Well the answer should be quite obvious. Amarr need one of two things to happen.
#1) Lasers to be slightly nerfed (a -5% to -10% damage reduction) and their cap usage halved. In return, all -10% cap usage per lvl needs to be change to +25% damage per level. Some ships will require bonus changes (primarily those that laready have a damage and RoF bonus.)
#2) Boost laser damage by 15-20%. The bonuses on the abaddon and the harbinger would need to be changed to -5% RoF per level (giving minmatar their alpha strike capability back and unchallenged.) The Armageddon and the Harbinger would need to loose 1 highslot and 1 turret slot. The Armageddon's missing high can be changed to a mid, and the Harbinger's missing high would be changed to a low. Or conversely, the Armageddon would need to loose 50-75m3 of drone-bay space, to bring damage back in-line with what it was before this change.
These changes will either a) get rid of an out-dated bonus, or b) make the bonus worth while again.
AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:08:00 -
[5]
Originally by: shinsushi So, how do you fix it? Well the answer should be quite obvious. Amarr need one of two things to happen.
#1) Lasers to be slightly nerfed (a -5% to -10% damage reduction) and their cap usage halved. In return, all -10% cap usage per lvl needs to be change to +25% damage per level. Some ships will require bonus changes (primarily those that laready have a damage and RoF bonus.)
#2) Boost laser damage by 15-20%. The bonuses on the abaddon and the harbinger would need to be changed to -5% RoF per level (giving minmatar their alpha strike capability back and unchallenged.) The Armageddon and the Harbinger would need to loose 1 highslot and 1 turret slot. The Armageddon's missing high can be changed to a mid, and the Harbinger's missing high would be changed to a low. Or conversely, the Armageddon would need to loose 50-75m3 of drone-bay space, to bring damage back in-line with what it was before this change.
These changes will either a) get rid of an out-dated bonus, or b) make the bonus worth while again.
This would be nice indeed.
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:10:00 -
[6]
ummm, post with your main? -----
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Sarah Benthwell
Dolaris Holdings
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:10:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Sarah Benthwell on 24/10/2007 16:10:53 Stop using your alt to bump all your threads and make it look like someone agrees with you.
Seriously.
edit: yes please, tell us who your main is, so i can look up his pvp stats _______ shigs |
shinsushi
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:23:00 -
[8]
Oh, and to detractors who say amarr is fine, that I am full of it ect, ect...
Explain this
Amarrians used to found all over th place according to vets. Now they are 65% less than any other race.
AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 |
Madla Mafia
The Dead Man's Hand
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sarah Benthwell Edited by: Sarah Benthwell on 24/10/2007 16:10:53 Stop using your alt to bump all your threads and make it look like someone agrees with you.
Seriously.
edit: yes please, tell us who your main is, so i can look up his pvp stats
Stop being a jerk and find something constructive to say.
Lasers do not have a real second bonus, which is part of the big Amarrian problem. Among other things, they need a second REAL and worthwhile bonus. All men are created equal? My butt! The Gods (CCP are racists towards Amarr). -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The A in Amarr seems to stands for Adapt... |
dalman
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer People claim "Laser has built in damage bonus". I'll say: "I think not" after looking at these pretty pictures.
Another thread with your spammage? Hmm, you really don't see that the tach (without bonus) and 425mm (with bonus) do pretty much exactly the same damage?
(as for longer range? Yes. But don't forget that lasers has better tracking. At suboptimal range, the lasers deal more damage.) Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
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Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:32:00 -
[11]
Finaly someone that found out that the cap use bonus is no longer viable...
give us some sort of second bonus, hell, apoc would be cool with some bonus that defines its role, like a optimal bonus.
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:33:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Madla Mafia Among other things, they need a second REAL and worthwhile bonus
this is why nearly all amarr ships do exactly the same thing and fall into just one of 3 catagorys. binning that crappy 10% cap red bonus for something relating more to the ships role will give amarr the spark they need to compete on the lvls the other races do.
(also the 10% lvl bonus totally BONES newer players that dont hav ship to 4/5 or uber cpa skills, which leads to silly cap issues for the supposed cap race.)
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shinsushi
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Madla Mafia
Originally by: Sarah Benthwell Edited by: Sarah Benthwell on 24/10/2007 16:10:53 Stop using your alt to bump all your threads and make it look like someone agrees with you.
Seriously.
edit: yes please, tell us who your main is, so i can look up his pvp stats
Stop being a jerk and find something constructive to say.
Lasers do not have a real second bonus, which is part of the big Amarrian problem. Among other things, they need a second REAL and worthwhile bonus. All men are created equal? My butt! The Gods (CCP are racists towards Amarr).
Don't feed the trolls man. Crap-posting like that just means that they have no argument, or nothing worth saying.
I know the feeling about the cap bonus... I totally understand why CCP put it there, and with higher damaging weapons I doubt people would be fitting ACs to non-directly bonused laser boats (apoc, maller, prophecy, punisher)
AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 |
mallina
Caldari Core Contingency
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: shinsushi Oh, and to detractors who say amarr is fine, that I am full of it ect, ect...
Explain this
Amarrians used to found all over th place according to vets. Now they are 65% less than any other race.
Dear ignorant troll alt, please refrain from being stupid. The primary reason that Amarr is least popular is because they're the hardest to use effectively. This by no means means they are bad, just require some thought and a different playstyle to other races. If all you want is to be able to MWD to your target, bash f1-f8 and be able to win, then I suggest you train Gallente, rather than trying to overpower Amarr for your own agenda. I will add no more to this thread. ---
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Sevis
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:36:00 -
[15]
Yes, they do get an innate bonus to balance out not having a ship bonus. This fits with the unyielding Amarr design philosophy, you don't get to pick which stat your guns are better in. Unfortunately, it is balanced with more than that.
Lasers, as they are now, are triple-balanced for their extra stats: *Extra relative PG cost (The cost of the % of available PG it takes to fit them.) *Extra cap use (Even after the -50% ship bonus) *No damage boosting ship bonus.
The guns seem to balance out on their own if you consider ship bonus. Your graph seems to hold that as true easily for beams. Pulses are harder to compare since their stats are so wildly different from other short range weapons. But if you put them on a geddon they work fine at the BS size. For curiosity, why a modified tempest? The Maelstrom seems like a better comparison with 1 weapon normalization bonus and 1 tanking bonus just like the Apoc. Its even on the same tier.
So you could accomplish the same balancing by reducing the fitting and cap use requirements by about 10 to 15%. This would free up some (not even all) of the slots currently used for PG mods and cap mods to be removed and replaced with something more combat intensive. Even if you max our your DPS before these extra slots come into play, you can still use the slots to pick up tank.
Basically, you can solve the problem by removing any 2 aspects of the triple-balance problem. Of course, if you go with the ship bonus option as one of your choices you make lasers far more available to other races. The first two (extra cap use and pg fitting) seem to be the way to go.
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shinsushi
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: mallina Whining
So I take it your lack of proof, and my overwhelming abundance of it means iam right, right....?
Originally by: Sevis
For curiosity, why a modified tempest? The Maelstrom seems like a better comparison with 1 weapon normalization bonus and 1 tanking bonus just like the Apoc. Its even on the same tier.
Mega/tempest/apoc all are tier 2 BSes, maelstrom is a tier 3. Maelstrom also gets a tanking bonus, apoc doesn't.
Originally by: Sevis
So you could accomplish the same balancing by reducing the fitting and cap use requirements by about 10 to 15%. This would free up some (not even all) of the slots currently used for PG mods and cap mods to be removed and replaced with something more combat intensive. Even if you max our your DPS before these extra slots come into play, you can still use the slots to pick up tank.
Basically, you can solve the problem by removing any 2 aspects of the triple-balance problem. Of course, if you go with the ship bonus option as one of your choices you make lasers far more available to other races. The first two (extra cap use and pg fitting) seem to be the way to go.
Well, as can be seen on amarrian laser boats, the design philosophy is simple, damage and tank. The most mid-slots we have on a laser boat? 4. They are not meant to be flexible, they are meant to gank and tank. The gank is suspect, and the tank is run of the mill. Of course, these ships were not meant to do both at the same time. Hence they need to be somewhat powergrid limited (or CPU) in order to ensure that they don't do both at once. all IMO of course.
AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 |
Sarah Benthwell
Dolaris Holdings
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: mallina Whining
So I take it your lack of proof, and my overwhelming abundance of it means iam right, right....?
OMG YOU'RE SO STUPID. YOUR PROOF HAS BEEN A LOAD OF GRAPHS THAT MEAN **** BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO FIT SHIPS. LEARN TO PLAY THE GAME AND LISTEN TO THE REAL PVPERS WHO ACTUALLY FLY AMARR AND I THINK YOU'LL FIND THEY'RE QUITE HAPPY!
GG _______ shigs |
LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.24 16:57:00 -
[18]
Edited by: LUKEC on 24/10/2007 16:57:12 Devs are forgetting that built in bonus is only built in if it's under 25km.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sarah Benthwell
Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: mallina Whining
So I take it your lack of proof, and my overwhelming abundance of it means iam right, right....?
OMG YOU'RE SO STUPID. YOUR PROOF HAS BEEN A LOAD OF GRAPHS THAT MEAN **** BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO FIT SHIPS. LEARN TO PLAY THE GAME AND LISTEN TO THE REAL PVPERS WHO ACTUALLY FLY AMARR AND I THINK YOU'LL FIND THEY'RE QUITE HAPPY!
GG
How about you stfu? Why are high skilled amarr players happy? Because it doesnt matter what crap ship youre flying when you have that high sp and gank players with 1/4th of your sp. It proves nothing. Pretty please with sugar on top: S T F U.
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dalman
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 24/10/2007 16:57:12 Devs are forgetting that built in bonus is only built in if it's under 25km.
Yes and no (as I said earlier). First off, in a typical fleet fit it's quite alot longer than 25km. Second, the counter that you forget is that lasers have better tracking, so you will do more damage with lasers whenever you end up close (sub-optimal) with the big guns. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:03:00 -
[21]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer People claim "Laser has built in damage bonus". I'll say: "I think not" after looking at these pretty pictures.
Another thread with your spammage? Hmm, you really don't see that the tach (without bonus) and 425mm (with bonus) do pretty much exactly the same damage?
(as for longer range? Yes. But don't forget that lasers has better tracking. At suboptimal range, the lasers deal more damage.)
You have no clue how to compare weapons. Please go play a game that doesnt challenge your mind.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 24/10/2007 16:57:12 Devs are forgetting that built in bonus is only built in if it's under 25km.
Yes and no (as I said earlier). First off, in a typical fleet fit it's quite alot longer than 25km. Second, the counter that you forget is that lasers have better tracking, so you will do more damage with lasers whenever you end up close (sub-optimal) with the big guns.
Ever try gate fights with tachyons? I think not. You type crap like this and say Im the one spamming threads with junk? You are the nr 1 junk pile here mate.
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dalman
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:08:00 -
[23]
Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2007 17:09:48
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 24/10/2007 16:57:12 Devs are forgetting that built in bonus is only built in if it's under 25km.
Yes and no (as I said earlier). First off, in a typical fleet fit it's quite alot longer than 25km. Second, the counter that you forget is that lasers have better tracking, so you will do more damage with lasers whenever you end up close (sub-optimal) with the big guns.
Ever try gate fights with tachyons? I think not. You type crap like this and say Im the one spamming threads with junk? You are the nr 1 junk pile here mate.
Aaahhh, I see. You have never ever flown a BS with a fleet fit (425mm, tach or 1400) and ended up within 20 km from a hostile BS. Yea, that makes alot of sense.
And neither do you understand the importance of tracking when shooting smaller ships than BS at long range? Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:10:00 -
[24]
Originally by: mallina
Originally by: shinsushi Oh, and to detractors who say amarr is fine, that I am full of it ect, ect...
Explain this
Amarrians used to found all over th place according to vets. Now they are 65% less than any other race.
Dear ignorant troll alt, please refrain from being stupid. The primary reason that Amarr is least popular is because they're the hardest to use effectively. This by no means means they are bad, just require some thought and a different playstyle to other races. If all you want is to be able to MWD to your target, bash f1-f8 and be able to win, then I suggest you train Gallente, rather than trying to overpower Amarr for your own agenda. I will add no more to this thread.
You do realize that the way amarr wins is by not moving and hitting f1-f8 right?
They are the simplest of all the ships to use in combat, since they carry no secondary targeting capability and no benefit to anything but shooting the primary.
They require a whole lot of skillpoints to be effective and then, only the battleships, but they certianly are not requiring any special skill in fitting or tactics to be good[does your ship have 3 heat sinks? Are you shooting the primary with ammo tuned to its range? If so, you are doing everything right].
There are actually less considerations for Amarran combat for everything except one specific build against one other specific build[Harbinger vs Blaster Brutix/Myrmidon, solo], in all sizes, shapes and types of combat.
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shinsushi
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sarah Benthwell
Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: mallina Whining
So I take it your lack of proof, and my overwhelming abundance of it means iam right, right....?
Stomping feet
Hey, the proof is there. Just because you throw a sissy fit and bring nothing to the table, don't cry about it.
Oh I will update my post. For those high-sp amarrian players, the amarrian cap ship situation is fine, no boost or nerfs need to be done there (cept for boosting the minnie carrier (tank) and the caldari carrier (CPU))
AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:15:00 -
[26]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 24/10/2007 16:57:12 Devs are forgetting that built in bonus is only built in if it's under 25km.
Yes and no (as I said earlier). First off, in a typical fleet fit it's quite alot longer than 25km. Second, the counter that you forget is that lasers have better tracking, so you will do more damage with lasers whenever you end up close (sub-optimal) with the big guns.
But beams are the shortest of all the long range weapons in the area where range matters most. It takes a whole lot more time to traverse the 30km between beam opt and rail opt than it does to traverse the 10 between pulse opt and hybrid opt. Hybrids do the best damage in the close range because they have the least range. Beams do the best damage in the long range because they have the least range[they are also a ***** to fit]
If blasters are not believed to have a built in damage bonus, then why would beams?
Pulses, which do have a great range advantage have a relativly small advantage unless its at the battleship level, but this is why there isnt much problem with Amarran gank battleships.
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shinsushi
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:16:00 -
[27]
Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 24/10/2007 17:09:48
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 24/10/2007 16:57:12 Devs are forgetting that built in bonus is only built in if it's under 25km.
Yes and no (as I said earlier). First off, in a typical fleet fit it's quite alot longer than 25km. Second, the counter that you forget is that lasers have better tracking, so you will do more damage with lasers whenever you end up close (sub-optimal) with the big guns.
Ever try gate fights with tachyons? I think not. You type crap like this and say Im the one spamming threads with junk? You are the nr 1 junk pile here mate.
Aaahhh, I see. You have never ever flown a BS with a fleet fit (425mm, tach or 1400) and ended up within 20 km from a hostile BS. Yea, that makes alot of sense.
And neither do you understand the importance of tracking when shooting smaller ships than BS at long range?
Ok, but where is the damage increase aswell? Since tachyons are the blasters of long-range weapons they should have the best tracking (which they do) and the highest damage (which they don't) with the shortest range (which they do.)
AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:23:00 -
[28]
Tachyons do have the highest damage, and damage types in fleets isnt that important, except when dealing with ships that can fit 1600 rts and damage controls.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:30:00 -
[29]
Originally by: shinsushi I have heard this alot, talk about lasers having a built in damage bonus, and I simply do not believe this to be
You do not believe? Dude, you can actually calculate it.
Please base a stats discussion on facts rather than guestimation. The reason lasers look weak is resistances, not their base damage.
_________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - |
shinsushi
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.24 17:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: shinsushi I have heard this alot, talk about lasers having a built in damage bonus, and I simply do not believe this to be
You do not believe? Dude, you can actually calculate it.
Please base a stats discussion on facts rather than guestimation. The reason lasers look weak is resistances, not their base damage.
Try reading the entire original post, rather than just reading the heading, first sentence then sticking your foot in your mouth.
AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 |
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