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Mortis Tyrathlion
Twisted Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.06 06:59:00 -
[211]
 Originally by: Hydrogen
Originally by: Mortis Tyrathlion
Edited by: Mortis Tyrathlion on 05/11/2007 20:55:50
Mmmm... I concur, after my first Pilgrim test-flight, it's not as broken as the stats might suggest. Took on a Zealot that attacked me while warping out (damned lack of Cloaking IV on sisi  ) and would have won, if it weren't FFA1 and some Golem hotshot hadn't started pelting me with cruise missiles. He kept having to stop firing, which combined with TDs meant I was taking very little damage after the first few volleys. Cap wasn't too bad either with me pulsing the neuts. Of course, I didn't need the hardners...
Plus, the TD nerf isn't as bad as you might think. Switching scripts is instant, and although it's not as good as before, you've still got a lot of flexibility. I personally see Tracking as being more useful than Range, except maybe on blastboats...
Do a real test versus skilled pilots and I show you the problem easily:
1. versus a skilled blaster pilot on Sisi
2. versus my Zealot on Sisi
Would you guys just have a look at the actual problem instead of gloating and behaving as if you are uber PvPers???? Cmon got issues? This thread is a ****load of work and you want to tell me you know it all better after some testing with a n00b on Sisi?
1. Use TDs in both setups versus a skilled pilot in blasterboat or zealot. Result? Other has cap injector and will approach and reduce trans speed. The one with most cap charges will win or if the Curse or Pilgrim makes a mistake. The Zealot doing a mistake looses some armor. The Pilgrim/Curse pulsing/injecting wrong is dead extremly fast. Also if the Zealot or Blasterboat is doing bad, it leaves; the Pilgrim can not leave (ok except when you got stabs, which could bne discussed as a viable setup ;) ).
2. Comparing TD's with jammers and dampeners even after nerf shows still a great gap. *breaking news* using TD's actually does somethign to other ships. Then go out, use a Nano Curse, fit dampeners with lock range scripts, orbit at 23km and kill the idiot who is scrambled. Breaking news: no risk for you but dead opponent, almost no matter which ship. Show me somethign like that in a Pilgrim or with TD's.
Hey, easy boy! I didn't say there was nothing wrong with it, just that it wasn't as bad as I thought, seeing as I was heavily looking at just the bonuses. I can at least see potential for the ship, but I can also see what happens when something pounces on it instead of vice-versa. I certainly think the ship needs to be changed, especially considering that the zealot was something of an ideal situation, not having the hardeners draining my cap and dealing with an energy-intensive ship. I've flown blasterboats enough to know what would happen if it got an edge over Pilgrim.
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Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2007.11.06 08:25:00 -
[212]
Just one page to go 2 beat the eos... i know we can do it.. !
post more valid comments plz..
->My Vids<- |
Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2007.11.06 08:32:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Dlardrageth
Considering how long this thread has been up and in its majority constructive and informative to read, considering that the response by the powers that be was (at least close to) zero, it could as well be locked. I don't think much will happen, tbh. 
Why? Just look at it from the point of view of CCP. Amarr ships are probably the least flown in total of all races (definitely there are less all-in-all than Caldari AFAIK). I'd wager that by current status the Amarr race might have the fewest active players (Minmatar might be competing). So why react to issues of the minority (aka Amarr pilots flying Amarr ships)? Especially if it deals with a "subclass" of that minority, which is recon pilots. Very obviously you do not have the connections/arguing power/attention that for example certain capital pilots might enjoy... or so it seems.  In fact, by this reasoning, CCP is acting very efficiently minding where the major customer interests do lie. 
Having had to decide myself to train up to which class of Amarr Tech-2 ships, I'm more than glad to having decided against the CovOps-Recon training string. I took a look at the Pilgrim pre-nerf already, as I like to plan ahead, but decided I didn't have to make the decision for or against it. Now I don't have to any more. Not worth it for only the mediocre (compared to other recons) Curse...
Sure, that might change at some undetermined point in the future. But seeing the Arbitrator becoming "rebalanced" and partly incapacitated, which is the "base ship" for both recons... I don't see the trend turning back anytime soon. So at the moment for me as someone having to decide to take a closer look at Tech-2 ships and being an Amarr player, recons rule out themselves. Or rather become ruled out by their performance or lack of it.
Anyone bothered to do a calculation already on how many SPs you needed to train to fly an Amarr recon well and what else you could have trained for with the same amount?
Thats my problem.. when i picked my character in 2003 i made an commitment.. i am an ammar only player.. And over the years i became a decent one.. however in commperison with other races it was actualy an bad choise.. i have to say tough that in the early days an geddon with heatsinks was the best ship to have..
People where so scared :) but sad to say these days are over..
mabe the paladin will compensate.. but it such an expensive ship.. its no fun losing it..
->My Vids<- |
Hydrogen
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.06 08:45:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Mortis Tyrathlion
Hey, easy boy! I didn't say there was nothing wrong with it, just that it wasn't as bad as I thought, seeing as I was heavily looking at just the bonuses. I can at least see potential for the ship, but I can also see what happens when something pounces on it instead of vice-versa. I certainly think the ship needs to be changed, especially considering that the zealot was something of an ideal situation, not having the hardeners draining my cap and dealing with an energy-intensive ship. I've flown blasterboats enough to know what would happen if it got an edge over Pilgrim.
Heya ;) your answer sounded very much like: "Hey, it is all ok". Sorry I got that wrong apparently - my fault. I hope no harm done.
- the ships have potential esspecially their roles
- currently the trend is even going down with the TD and drone bandwidth change.
Somehow I just look on Sisi daily and my jaw drops, that CCP is serious on applying these changes (50MBit, TD change) without tweaking both ships. Also... silence by CCP to these issues - more like: "Hey it is all ok". Maybe (only maybe) I tend to overreact to posts sounding as if all is ok and Hydrogen is just a drama-queen (ok, that also ;) ).
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Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2007.11.06 08:56:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Hydrogen
Originally by: Mortis Tyrathlion
Hey, easy boy! I didn't say there was nothing wrong with it, just that it wasn't as bad as I thought, seeing as I was heavily looking at just the bonuses. I can at least see potential for the ship, but I can also see what happens when something pounces on it instead of vice-versa. I certainly think the ship needs to be changed, especially considering that the zealot was something of an ideal situation, not having the hardeners draining my cap and dealing with an energy-intensive ship. I've flown blasterboats enough to know what would happen if it got an edge over Pilgrim.
Heya ;) your answer sounded very much like: "Hey, it is all ok". Sorry I got that wrong apparently - my fault. I hope no harm done.
- the ships have potential esspecially their roles
- currently the trend is even going down with the TD and drone bandwidth change.
Somehow I just look on Sisi daily and my jaw drops, that CCP is serious on applying these changes (50MBit, TD change) without tweaking both ships. Also... silence by CCP to these issues - more like: "Hey it is all ok". Maybe (only maybe) I tend to overreact to posts sounding as if all is ok and Hydrogen is just a drama-queen (ok, that also ;) ).
Nah your not a drama quen if it isnt for people like you nobody would even know whats going on.. there just a select group of players who actualy care about whats going on..
CCP would never know if they should rethink something with out poeple suggesting it..
ccp doesnt fly amarr them selfs.. so they dont know them selfs..
->My Vids<- |
Hydrogen
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.06 08:57:00 -
[216]
Well I changed the topic - tell me if you disagree. If it is ok with you, I leave it as it is now.
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.06 10:51:00 -
[217]
Gives me a great laugh, when I see people telling, that the Amarr-Recons are fine as they are 
As stated in this thread so many times, they are not.
They are Drone-Boats -> Drones get nerfed: no Shield-Recharge when scooped/redeployed, Bandwith
They are NOS/Neut-Boats -> NOS got nerfed, which is good in general, but it killed the Pilgrim, as it cannot run Neuts like the Curse
They have bonus to TDs -> TDs get nerfed and they allready were useless against Missiles and Drones
As a general Note maybe: Noone want's to have a soloPWN-mobile and there should'nt be one.
Problem with the Pilgrim is, that it cannot perform it's role, as it has no range-bonus like all other Recons. So it's impossible to stay @ 30+km. This results in a close-combat-tactic, which is not achievable anymore with the NOSchanges, as it cannot run it's tank. 350m¦ Cargo = 10x 800er CapCharges = 220sec till death. With only Medium-Drones now, thats not enough to slowly chew away someone.
Problem with the Curse is, it's only viable in a speed-fit, which translates into ZERO tank.
It can permarun 3 Neutralizers without CapInjector if fitted for heavy Cap-Recharge, but this results in the lack of tank, speed or EW. So the Curse is somewhat good in a small gang until someone decides to fire at it.
Rapier/Huginn, Arazu/Lachesis, Falcon/Rook: These ships are very effective in using their EW as a general defense, as they can stay out of troubles with their ranged EW. They also do not need their High-Slots for their bonused modules, which makes them more flexible, like fitting a Remote-Rep, Smartbombs or even NOS.
So this is all about a little bit of tweaking, to bring the Amarr-Recons back on par, with the others.
There was given alot of suggestions allready in this thread, and some of them would really do the trick, without overpowering the ships.
*still waiting for Dev response, and the Oomph*
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Hydrogen
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.06 12:02:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Grytok
Gives me a great laugh, when I see people telling, that the Amarr-Recons are fine as they are
As stated in this thread so many times, they are not.
<snip>
Woot, thanks - decent summary of the thread so far :)
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Lord Amentia
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Posted - 2007.11.06 13:03:00 -
[219]
Nice thread and valid points. What bothers me and makes me feel uneasy?
There are changes applied due to whine-threads, which even lack arguments. Changes to ships, which were not even really broken, but which were subpar.
Here we got a thread with valid arguments, valid points, reasoning, a heated discussion but still mature. Nothing happens.
This is very disappointing.
It offers a questionable view on the developers in charge - the least said.
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Depp Knight
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.06 13:40:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Garia666
Just one page to go 2 beat the eos... i know we can do it.. !
post more valid comments plz..
Imagine if that was possible. Eos nerf hasnt made it on TQ yet
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Mortis Tyrathlion
Twisted Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.06 15:33:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Hydrogen
Heya ;) your answer sounded very much like: "Hey, it is all ok". Sorry I got that wrong apparently - my fault. I hope no harm done.
- the ships have potential esspecially their roles
- currently the trend is even going down with the TD and drone bandwidth change.
Somehow I just look on Sisi daily and my jaw drops, that CCP is serious on applying these changes (50MBit, TD change) without tweaking both ships. Also... silence by CCP to these issues - more like: "Hey it is all ok". Maybe (only maybe) I tend to overreact to posts sounding as if all is ok and Hydrogen is just a drama-queen (ok, that also ;) ).
No harm done 
I'm playing around with a suggestion for the Game Development section which will no doubt stir up a hornet's nest (or at least, I hope it will. Nothing worse than zip response ) saying that the main problem with the Pilgrim is that it has a completely different mission profile to other Recons, purely because of the range problem, along with suggesting a new ship class to keep everyone happy. Your comments about assassins earlier on got me thinking about how they could be implemented without being unbalanced - because at least part of the problem is that the Pilgrim and Curse used to have a monopoly on the 'assassin' role, and they're kept down because no one else will have an equivalent. I'll put a link in here when I finish it, I'll be interested to see what you old vets think
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Dlardrageth
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.11.06 15:49:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Hydrogen
[...]Also... silence by CCP to these issues - more like: "Hey it is all ok".[...]
Rather more like:
"He's dead, Jim!"
if you'd ask me. Except that they are not even marginally as talkative as a certain doctor was, these days.
Quote:
[...]- the ships have potential esspecially their roles[...]
Look at it realistically. With the impeding "rebalancing" of drones and TDs upcoming, aka "Amarr Recon Nerf Mk. 2" (just kidding, of course this is totally advantageous for Amarr...), the Curse will yet lose a bit more of its standing in its class, and the Pilgrim will even be harder to justify to fly. In effect, if you discount the cyno business, there's not much a Pilgrim will be able to do better than a plain CovOps frigate. For a much steeper price tag.
It basically will have the same chance in PvP as the Anathema, it will have no beef in PvE either. And if the only real application it works in is scouting cloaked, heck, as fugly as the Anathema looks, I still don't see most people dishing out the extra cash for a Pilgrim if they just want a plain scout who can cloak. Frankly, it won't make much difference if CCP just completely deleted the Pilgrim from EVE as it is now.
I still do not expect to happen much. IMHO the Amarr have the worst cruiser class across the board anyway in general. So it makes kind of sense to CCP, I guess, to make all Amarr ships based on cruisers also (among) the crappiest in their class in the long run. I don't think it's a mere coincidence the Arbitrator gets hit by the nerf bat, I don't think it's a mere coincidence Amarr are the only race to have a Tier-1 faction cruiser only, I don' think it's a mere coincidence the Devoter is probably the least desirable HI to come and I don't think it's a mere coincidence the probably best design based on a cruiser-hull for Amarr is the Khanid-built Sacrilege.
Well, Amarr may debatably have some of the best capitals, yeah, duh, start training capitals all you Amarr! Go figure...
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Hydrogen
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.06 19:37:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Dlardrageth
Originally by: Hydrogen
[...]Also... silence by CCP to these issues - more like: "Hey it is all ok".[...]
Rather more like:
"He's dead, Jim!"
<snip>
I hear ya. Again: my fault somehow was to pause EvE for some time, so I came back for the 7 last glory days of Amarr Recons. Still, since those came out, my training focused solely around Amarr Recons (like I said earlier - heavy missile spec 5 ftw with all missile base skills just for the Curse ;) - no kidding).
Persistency pays - that is how I look at it.
About this thread:
1. Either it is simply locked - if they do, then go figure about a capitulation against sane reasoning by CCP or
2. there is a definite dev answer or
3. something changes on Sisi and then on TQ. Something reasonable, not a throwaway grid increase for only one ship, which addressed no issue for real.
For that long, this thread stays and you are all invited to add your comments. And if it is only just because you see this thread on a daily basis ;)
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Maglietto
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Posted - 2007.11.06 22:06:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Maglietto on 06/11/2007 22:14:30
Well, what can i say...
As a strictly Amarr pilot i was thinking on in which way to improve my skills. I'm not really interested in PVE, so the choice was made to become skilled with frigates, ending up with Retribution/Vengeance ships, having all the skills at 5 and then to go not for HAC, but for the recon ships, Curse to be certain.
Curse, because as i've assumed it was the ship to make something with all those raving Vagabonds out there. The Curse, because Amarr HACs (Zealot for ex.) can't do much about those Vagas. And what i've faced on my hard way to the flashing fetish of the Curse. That Amarr have no recon ships anymore. Not a single one. Let's all fly Vagabonds and Navy Ravens. 
One more... A half-year earrlier, i wish they put a sign for the players who come to EVE that says: Choose your race: Amarr, you would suck untill you get a battleship, Minmatar, you would suck after you'll get a battleship and so on..." ...but there were no such sign, really.
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Nhi'Khuna
e X i l e
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2007.11.06 23:10:00 -
[225]
Quote:
*sigh* I am sorry Nhi, but please read full thread before posting this way.
Wow Hydrogen, you came out guns a blazing. See here I was looking to provide some constructive criticism but then you came out looking to knock me out at the knees.
To clarify on your 'research'
That KB has only been up for a while and I haven't gone out soloing in my ships for a bit
The Raven kill was my own damned fault, I had that guy into structure and if I hadn't been a fool and turned off my sensor disruptors than I would have been cap sustainable long enough to pop him. Bad piloting, not a bad ship.
Yup, I nano my curse, isn't that what she's designed for? Honestly. With as many mids as it has why wouldn't one be thinking of speed and sheilds? Is this a bad thing?
I think you are confusing sarcasm with patronizing... Neither of which win you any arguements mate.
Solo'd plenty of times in the past with both ships, successfully. Care for a demonstration?
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Hydrogen
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.06 23:46:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Nhi'Khuna
Quote:
*sigh* I am sorry Nhi, but please read full thread before posting this way.
Wow Hydrogen, you came out guns a blazing. See here I was looking to provide some constructive criticism but then you came out looking to knock me out at the knees.
To clarify on your 'research'
That KB has only been up for a while and I haven't gone out soloing in my ships for a bit
The Raven kill was my own damned fault, I had that guy into structure and if I hadn't been a fool and turned off my sensor disruptors than I would have been cap sustainable long enough to pop him. Bad piloting, not a bad ship.
Yup, I nano my curse, isn't that what she's designed for? Honestly. With as many mids as it has why wouldn't one be thinking of speed and sheilds? Is this a bad thing?
I think you are confusing sarcasm with patronizing... Neither of which win you any arguements mate.
Solo'd plenty of times in the past with both ships, successfully. Care for a demonstration?
Nice answer - read the thread it is all answered there. Esspecially on shield tanks, Nano,...
The remark: "Pilgrim is fine, I can kill stuff - nothing wrong" (that is what you sound like) is either dumb, a blatant lie, ignorant or you got the super-setup and tactic which someone did not find yet besides you.
You hint on the latter one - after you have shown you didnt read the thread, basically saying: you are all newbs here. Read your first post again and yes: "came out guns blazing" is correct.
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.07 01:32:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Grytok on 07/11/2007 01:34:07
Please don't engage each other, as this thread is one of the few really constructive ones so far.
The Curse, as stated many times allready has not so much problems, as you can speed-fit it etc. and sure you can go for juicy targets with it, when the target is not expecting to face a nano-Curse.
Also like allready said it's usefull in Gangs, as an active tank-destroyer, even without CapInjector.
The question remains, if it's really necessary to speedfit a ship, which is not ment to do this.
The Pilgrim however just don't have a range-advantage, which results in it's inefectiveness, compared to the other Force-Recons -> can't speedtank, can't EW-tank, while engaging.
Furthermore TrackingDisruptors are not that kind of EW you'd like to bring into a Gang-Fight with the Pilgrim, as it's useless vs. drones and missiles. So the Pilgrim is clearly no Gang-Support-Ship -> has to find another role, which just is'nt achievable in it's current state.
*sorry for repeating the facts, again and again*
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Cailais
Amarr
W A R
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Posted - 2007.11.07 10:03:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Grytok
Edited by: Grytok on 07/11/2007 01:34:07
Please don't engage each other, as this thread is one of the few really constructive ones so far.
The Curse, as stated many times allready has not so much problems, as you can speed-fit it etc. and sure you can go for juicy targets with it, when the target is not expecting to face a nano-Curse.
Also like allready said it's usefull in Gangs, as an active tank-destroyer, even without CapInjector.
The question remains, if it's really necessary to speedfit a ship, which is not ment to do this.
The Pilgrim however just don't have a range-advantage, which results in it's inefectiveness, compared to the other Force-Recons -> can't speedtank, can't EW-tank, while engaging.
Furthermore TrackingDisruptors are not that kind of EW you'd like to bring into a Gang-Fight with the Pilgrim, as it's useless vs. drones and missiles. So the Pilgrim is clearly no Gang-Support-Ship -> has to find another role, which just is'nt achievable in it's current state.
*sorry for repeating the facts, again and again*
Im quite disappointed that ccp decided to apply scripts to TDs - they already had a significant disadvantage by being useless vs missiles, drones, and also neuts, webs and scrams: all potential attacks that the ecm jammer and sensor dampner could effect.
The combined impact of both the changes to TDs and to Nos makes the pilgrim a much poorer solo ship, and irrelevant in gang warfare.
However, fear not for I have found a use for it! Fit some stabs, a couple of cargo expanders and you can use it as a small cloaking hauler \o/  .
C.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
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Hydrogen
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.07 10:27:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Hydrogen on 07/11/2007 10:34:53
Edited by: Hydrogen on 07/11/2007 10:27:50
While having a nap, I just thought on what and why a Pilgrim would need it. So on a more constructive side to point out possible changes:
Role:
- Special role: Cyno-maker
- Solo Role: "Stealth-Assassin"
- Fleet Role: Scout and skirmish warfare
Design Comments:
- The Pilgrim by design is a fighting vessel with superb cloaking.
- Cloaking and EWAR (esspecially NOS/Neut) combined with fighting abilities are a powerful combination and need to be balanced.
- This design is a pure PvP design.
The "Pilgrim father" design:
Name: Pilgrim Father
Hull: Arbitrator
Role: Power Recon Ship
Power recon ships are the successfull merge of covert ops frigates and Heavy Assault ships. Strong armor, powerfull electronic warfare abilities paired with top-notch cloaking technology and the ability to set up cynosaural fields for incoming Capital ships make the Pilgrim father a huge assett to any fleet.
Since the failed design by Carthum Conglomerate, Viziam continued the Pilgrim design line and merged state of the art technology with the Pilgrim's original design.
Developer: Viziam
As if in response to Khanid Innovation's shield-intensive designs, Viziam have for their starship design opted to neglect shield systems in favor of the strongest armor plating in cruiser history.
Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% reduction to duration/activation time of modules requiring Astrometrics per level and 10% bonus to drone hit points and damage per level.
Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to Energy Neutralizer transfer amount and capacitor consumption and -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level
Role Bonus: 200-unit reduction in liquid ozone consumption for cynosural field generation and 50% reduction in cynosural field duration. Invisible in local when cloaked.
armor hitpoints: 1800 armor
60 armor em damage resistance
70 armor explosive damage resistance
53.125 armor kinetic damage resistance
35 armor thermal damage resistance
5 low slots
5 med slots
4 high slots
1050 powergrid output
350 cpu output
1 launcher hardpoints
0 turret hardpoints
150m3 drone capacity
80m3 drone bandwidth
43 km maximum targeting range
---
Hold your breath and read on:
- The Pilgrim father design is definitly versatile. Three major setup lines are feasible: Probe/Cyno Tackler, Probe/Solo Hunter, Skirmisher.
- When fitting the Pilgrim father design you will realize, that the additonal probe launcher - if used - heavily hurts the whole setup.
- Long range abilities do not exist at all. Any mid range ship or sensor dampener ship kills a Pilgrim without risk.
- When looking for versatility in a setup, the Pilgrim father must sacrifice low slots for fitting mods. And even then maximum skills are a must and not obligatory for a decent setup.
- The Pilgrim father is - when entering close combat - doomed to finish, no matter the result.
- The launcher hardpoint offers a chance to use Defender missiles, which plain suck, but could offer a needed edge vs. missile boats.
Bottom line: solo targets need a fast reaction to avoid a Pilgrim father. Also a cap booster is obligatory to be able to survive the Pilgrim father. Alternatively killing the drones renders the Pilgrim Father helpless.
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Mortis Tyrathlion
Twisted Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.07 11:40:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Hydrogen
Edited by: Hydrogen on 07/11/2007 10:47:06
While having a nap, I just thought on what and why a Pilgrim would need it. So on a more constructive side to point out possible changes:
<snip>
 Thief!
Ok, not really But like I said, I've been putting together something similar, but it looks like we've gone about it in very different ways. Got some time to work on it now, then I'll put it up to see what you think...
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moumou78
Soulbound.
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Posted - 2007.11.07 12:34:00 -
[231]
Plz fix the Pilgrim it really doesn't fit anywhere right now, and with the coming EWAR nerfs I dont see it getting any better.
\signed
moumou |
Hydrogen
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.07 12:37:00 -
[232]
Originally by: moumou78
Plz fix the Pilgrim it really doesn't fit anywhere right now, and with the coming EWAR nerfs I dont see it getting any better.
\signed
moumou
May I add that it is getting way worse with the new EWAR and drone changes for the Pilgrim.
broken ship + nerf = extinction
Without doing anything, there is no point at all to not delete the Pilgrim. Actually it would be fair to offer all pilots a one-time 100% recycling of their Pilgrim. At least it would show humor on CCPs side...
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.07 13:29:00 -
[233]
I still think that there is hope for the Pilgrim with a few little tweaks to it's stats.
1. double the bonus to TDs from 5% to 10% Tracking Disruptor Effeciveness
2. make it a "Cap-Monster" by giving it 20% better CapRecharge-Rate
3. get rid of the targeting-delay after decloaking
This would help allready to some extend imho.
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Hydrogen
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.07 13:53:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Grytok
I still think that there is hope for the Pilgrim with a few little tweaks to it's stats.
1. double the bonus to TDs from 5% to 10% Tracking Disruptor Effeciveness
2. make it a "Cap-Monster" by giving it 20% better CapRecharge-Rate
3. get rid of the targeting-delay after decloaking
This would help allready to some extend imho.
Actually - all discussion on EWAR aside - the tracking disruptor was meant to offer some sort of "EWAR-tank" for the Pilgrim, while the Pilgrim chews slowly through its target. At least that is how I interpret CCP's setup.
This idea is a huge fail - plain and simple. I doubt you can do the Pilgrim any good with this bonus. In case of the Curse it is totally different. Curse can fit Defenders (discussable, but can), Curse can be faster than most missiles and TD's help against turrets. Here a TD can help - for a Pilgrim I consider TD's by now a huge fail in any tweak.
Or where am I wrong?
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- click here - |
Indigo Johnson
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.11.07 14:15:00 -
[235]
Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 07/11/2007 14:16:21
Im sorry I didn't read all of that or this thread.
If you complaining about the lack of punch the curse/pilgrim has now wrt to cap denial try using a medium injector with cap 200 or 400 (at the most) with a rack of neuts. Really doesn't work all that badly.
Overall though, with the new electronic frigs coming out, recons niche is going to be "slightly" watered down.
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Madla Mafia
The Dead Man's Hand
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Posted - 2007.11.07 14:29:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Indigo Johnson
Edited by: Indigo Johnson on 07/11/2007 14:16:21
Im sorry I didn't read all of that or this thread.
If you complaining about the lack of punch the curse/pilgrim has now wrt to cap denial try using a medium injector with cap 200 or 400 (at the most) with a rack of neuts. Really doesn't work all that badly.
Overall though, with the new electronic frigs coming out, recons niche is going to be "slightly" watered down.
Making the Amarr recons even more worthless!!!
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Amarr - getting screwed since 2005. |
Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.07 15:03:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Hydrogen
Originally by: Grytok
snip
Actually - all discussion on EWAR aside - the tracking disruptor was meant to offer some sort of "EWAR-tank" for the Pilgrim, while the Pilgrim chews slowly through its target. At least that is how I interpret CCP's setup.
This idea is a huge fail - plain and simple. I doubt you can do the Pilgrim any good with this bonus. In case of the Curse it is totally different. Curse can fit Defenders (discussable, but can), Curse can be faster than most missiles and TD's help against turrets. Here a TD can help - for a Pilgrim I consider TD's by now a huge fail in any tweak.
Or where am I wrong?
Of course you are right, that TDs on a Pilgrim are nothing worthwile, if you look at it as a solo-ship, which is the only thing the Pilgrim can do actually, as it's no support at all for gangs.
It's the bonus from the Arbitrator however and I don't see CCP changing this unfortunately.
If CCP is willing to change this, well, then I suppose to change the bonus to a 5% Resistance-Bonus to stay inline with other Amarr-Ship-Boni, while changing the stats, like I supposed or to come up with something really usefull and give it a bonus like 5% Energy Neutralizer Activation.
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Aaron Mirrorsaver
R.E.C.O.N.
Black-Out
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Posted - 2007.11.07 15:14:00 -
[238]
i thought the boost was 100 grid.
also who are you kidding making the max targetting range 48 km?
one good thing would be built in high resistance to ecm and damps for the pilgrim. or any reocon.
R.E.C.O.N. is recruiting
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2007.11.07 15:26:00 -
[239]
Edited by: Grytok on 07/11/2007 15:29:58
Originally by: Ruciza
Edited by: Ruciza on 07/11/2007 15:17:27
You are wrong in the sense that Recons are not designed as solo ships but as gang support ships, much like any other ship actually. Tracking disrupts are not only a tank for you, but for all your friends too.
Caldari Recon - kills directed offense, retains speed and warp, defense and automatic offense like f.o.f. or drones.
Gallente - kills long ranged directed offense, kills warp, retains speed, defense and automatic offense. Retains close range offense and EW.
Minmatar - kills speed and helps tracking. Retains offense, warp and defense.
AMARR: Kills speed, cap dependent offense, active defense, EW, sometimes warp or jump. Considerably degrades every offense except missiles and drones. Switches off everything that needs cap.
For medium neuts to kill capacity quickly enough, especially if the target has a cap booster or is larger, it needs a neut amount bonus. The Pilgrim can therefore not switch to a range bonus, because a single med booster will retain the target's cap for as long it has units. The Pilgrim is an electronic warfare ship, it does not have much of a tank and needs to neuter the target quickly. Still the Pilgrim has a good tank compared to other recons, not the least by killing the target's capacity and therefore dps and tank. If the Pilgrim doesn't fit an active tank, it will not cap out quickly. 1600mm plate, small booster, AB, 3 med neuts all fits. Egress rigs will prevent quick cap out. Use implants. Use your cloak. Use your neutralizers, and forget nos.
Capless weapons are a counter to cap warfare. ACs are a counter to range disruption. Lamenting that Amarr recons are vulnerable to missiles is like lamenting that the Arazu must be able to solo a Vagabond. You have a fixation on soloing. They are NOT solo ships. Use them that way at your own risk.
You have no clue what Recon-Ships do in gangs, do you?
Arazu disables 1-2 targets with it's damps, if your gang-mates can engage above 25km. Scramrange helps here too.
Rapier disables 1-2 targets with it's webs, if you're in a proper setup gang, i.e. Speedships. Target Painter.. well, not so uber.
Falcon disables 2 targets easily with it's ECM, totally independent, from what your gangmates are flying.
Pilgrim disables maximum 1 target, if living long enough, by nuking it's cap, but has no ranged defence making it a sitting duck waiting to be called primary. Tracking Disruptors are useless against missiles and drones and do not affect Blasters or Autocannons very much, as you need no tracking or range while shooting a webbed target from 2km distance.
So it's pretty obvious here, that the Pilgrim is the only ship not having anything to add to a gang.
Not a gang-supporter? It has to be a solo-ship!
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Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2007.11.07 15:43:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Grytok
Edited by: Grytok on 07/11/2007 15:29:58
Originally by: Ruciza
Edited by: Ruciza on 07/11/2007 15:17:27
You are wrong in the sense that Recons are not designed as solo ships but as gang support ships, much like any other ship actually. Tracking disrupts are not only a tank for you, but for all your friends too.
Caldari Recon - kills directed offense, retains speed and warp, defense and automatic offense like f.o.f. or drones.
Gallente - kills long ranged directed offense, kills warp, retains speed, defense and automatic offense. Retains close range offense and EW.
Minmatar - kills speed and helps tracking. Retains offense, warp and defense.
AMARR: Kills speed, cap dependent offense, active defense, EW, sometimes warp or jump. Considerably degrades every offense except missiles and drones. Switches off everything that needs cap.
For medium neuts to kill capacity quickly enough, especially if the target has a cap booster or is larger, it needs a neut amount bonus. The Pilgrim can therefore not switch to a range bonus, because a single med booster will retain the target's cap for as long it has units. The Pilgrim is an electronic warfare ship, it does not have much of a tank and needs to neuter the target quickly. Still the Pilgrim has a good tank compared to other recons, not the least by killing the target's capacity and therefore dps and tank. If the Pilgrim doesn't fit an active tank, it will not cap out quickly. 1600mm plate, small booster, AB, 3 med neuts all fits. Egress rigs will prevent quick cap out. Use implants. Use your cloak. Use your neutralizers, and forget nos.
Capless weapons are a counter to cap warfare. ACs are a counter to range disruption. Lamenting that Amarr recons are vulnerable to missiles is like lamenting that the Arazu must be able to solo a Vagabond. You have a fixation on soloing. They are NOT solo ships. Use them that way at your own risk.
You have no clue what Recon-Ships do in gangs, do you?
Arazu disables 1-2 targets with it's damps, if your gang-mates can engage above 25km. Scramrange helps here too.
Rapier disables 1-2 targets with it's webs, if you're in a proper setup gang, i.e. Speedships. Target Painter.. well, not so uber.
Falcon disables 2 targets easily with it's ECM, totally independent, from what your gangmates are flying.
Pilgrim disables maximum 1 target, if living long enough, by nuking it's cap, but has no ranged defence making it a sitting duck waiting to be called primary. Tracking Disruptors are useless against missiles and drones and do not affect Blasters or Autocannons very much, as you need no tracking or range while shooting a webbed target from 2km distance.
So it's pretty obvious here, that the Pilgrim is the only ship not having anything to add to a gang.
Not a gang-supporter? It has to be a solo-ship!
amen
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