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Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.27 05:27:00 - [31] to the top
Phaedruss	Posted - 2007.10.27 10:42:00 - [32] Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Phaedruss The Pilgrim is still a good solo / small gang ship after the NOS nerf, but it now requires some good cap management and reconfiguration of low slots/rigs. You think Pilgrim pilots have it bad now? Wait for the sensor damp nerf... I'm guessing you're suggesting I fit Cap booster, scram, web ECM burst+2 damps on the Pilgrim and a 1600mm plate+hardeners and maybe a small rep It works until you get some ****ed off heavy drones auto aggroed to you or you miss a jam (which happens much more often than you'd think) You're rolling the dice with that deal, not to mention with the increased cap needs you're gonna be chewing through even more cap with that ECM burst, meaning your tiny cargo most likely won't last even 1 fight with cap booster charges. It's just not an option. As for the Pilgrim being a good gang ship--I seriously want what you're smoking. Your average gang could make the Pilgrim a tertiary target and you'd die before the primary (not to metion stop EWarring to run your tank). A Pilgrim in gangs has Scorpion syndrome nowadays. I suggest you read what is written and stop filling in the blanks with fiction.
Corwain Gallente Down In Flames	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:39:00 - [33] Originally by: Phaedruss Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Phaedruss The Pilgrim is still a good solo / small gang ship after the NOS nerf, but it now requires some good cap management and reconfiguration of low slots/rigs. You think Pilgrim pilots have it bad now? Wait for the sensor damp nerf... I'm guessing you're suggesting I fit Cap booster, scram, web ECM burst+2 damps on the Pilgrim and a 1600mm plate+hardeners and maybe a small rep It works until you get some ****ed off heavy drones auto aggroed to you or you miss a jam (which happens much more often than you'd think) You're rolling the dice with that deal, not to mention with the increased cap needs you're gonna be chewing through even more cap with that ECM burst, meaning your tiny cargo most likely won't last even 1 fight with cap booster charges. It's just not an option. As for the Pilgrim being a good gang ship--I seriously want what you're smoking. Your average gang could make the Pilgrim a tertiary target and you'd die before the primary (not to metion stop EWarring to run your tank). A Pilgrim in gangs has Scorpion syndrome nowadays. I suggest you read what is written and stop filling in the blanks with fiction. Then I fail to see how a sensor damp nerf would affect Pilgrims. I still contest however that a Pilgrim is a good gang ship. It has poor damage, and no cap to run its tank while neuting. With the necessity to fit a cap booster its mids are now lacking. --
Crash Sagramo	Posted - 2007.10.28 21:00:00 - [34] Here is my 5 cents All amars energy ships i.e. curse, pilgrim, sentinel needs bonus to energy neuts capacitor usage. Or simply change this useless nosfs. I want old nosfs back )
Bilaz Minmatar Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2007.10.28 22:15:00 - [35] I think devs should give med nosfs and neuts a falloff, so pilgrim could kill cap from 20km but like twice as bad as from 12. so pilot could choose is it worth making this fight close and fast or long but somehow more safe. I dont see med neuts and nosfs much used around anymore so this could help to change it. and on curse i dont think 10+ km of reduced nosfing would matter much... Well maybe this option is too minmatarish for eve-online
Corwain Gallente Down In Flames	Posted - 2007.10.29 03:13:00 - [36] What needs to happen is for the pilgrim to get an extra mid to fit its new cap booster into, and perhaps a role bonus to neut cap use. Its problem right now is that it doesn't have the cap to neut and tank at the same time. Secondary problems are that its cargo bay (where the cap booster charges should go) is tiny. --
Aaron Mirrorsaver R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2007.10.29 06:44:00 - [37] Feng, please the td bonus is good. Other wise I couldnt solo turret ships, or kill that blasterthron I killed, I'd be in seconds once he opened up, as I was at half armor before turning on td's... just in those few seconds of click to activate the td. R.E.C.O.N. is recruiting
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.29 11:06:00 - [38] Originally by: Aaron Mirrorsaver Feng, please the td bonus is good. Other wise I couldnt solo turret ships, or kill that blasterthron I killed, I'd be in seconds once he opened up, as I was at half armor before turning on td's... just in those few seconds of click to activate the td. Sarcasm =p I don't really think Tracking Disruptors are all that overpowered. On the arbitrator / pilgrim / curse, they function very effectively; but.. isn't that what they are meant to do? Hence the bonus? The pilgrim is a solo ship. This is confirmed. Damps are getting nerfed (some pilgrim pilots used them, odd...); and Tracking Disruptors are getting nerfed. Nos has already been nerfed. The 3 modules which allowed the pilgrim to solo effectively, are all getting nerfed. Exactly what are we supposed to do? Hello, Dev's? helloooooo
Corwain Gallente Down In Flames	Posted - 2007.10.29 13:56:00 - [39] I'd really like to see a Devs input on the whole Pilgrim situation. Especially one that has actually flown one on TQ. --
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:43:00 - [40] Originally by: Corwain I'd really like to see a Devs input on the whole Pilgrim situation. Especially one that has actually flown one on TQ. you and I both. All I would like to know from him/her; is if the Pilgrim is performing as intended, if its broke, if its getting looked at, something, anything; and I'm sure all of the Pilgrim pilots would be grateful.

Corwain Gallente Down In Flames	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:33:00 - [41] Failing that I'd like a post from someone who actually is able to get the Pilgrim to work nowadays, and a description of what they've actually been able to kill with it and how. As it is any pilot with half a brain and an injector fitted can kill a Pilgrim due to the long neut cycle time, tiny Pilly cargo for its cap charges, and the HP advantage most ships hold over the Pilly. --
Grim86StonE Amarr The Black Sea Pirates	Posted - 2007.10.29 18:47:00 - [42] Meh....I hate to bring this to you...but you guys are just wasting your time...Dev's and CCP don't give a rat's a-hole about Amarr pilots and their ships. We always get nerfed. We almost have no solo pvp ship that is competitive with it's counterparts from the other races. We have no respectable battleship:our damage dealer is paper-thin, the Apoc is a sitting hunk of metal incapable of doing any damage and the abadon....come on...if you can finish the fight in 60 seconds you're ok...if not...you're spacedust. Assault frigates are the absolute worst in the game...ffs...Retribution has 1 mid slot...thx ccp...Vengeance doesn't do any damage with it's "mighty" rockets.... Only one inty is actually useable. Recons are crap...nos-nerf took care of that, upcoming nerfs to ecm, sensor damps and tracking disrupts will render this ship even more useless than it's t1 counterpart...thanks CCP.... You thought it was over? Think again... Because in less than a month we will feast our eyes on the new most useless t2 ship in the Amarr arsenal: The Paladin. Stasis webifier, tracking and Repair amount bonus. What in good God's name are you doing there CCP?! I want to fly only Amarr ships because I love the way their ships look and because Amarr is my race. Because of your idiocy and your lack of care for Amarr you are takeing all this joy away from me (along with my money) and you leave me and many others like me with no options besides: a) quiting the game b) get pawned each time I go to pvp c) train another race Lovely CCP...thx alot. PS: sorry for deviateing from the main subject, but each time a new expansion comes out, Amarr get the shaft once more. I am sick and tirred of this. /Signed
Corwain Gallente Down In Flames	Posted - 2007.10.29 20:08:00 - [43] Amarr do get shafted quite a bit, but I'm much more concerned with the Pilgrim than anything else. See, the Pilgrim is the ship that got me into PvP in the first place. Watched "Behind Enemy Lines" by Ginaz when I was a wee noob with 2 months under my belt. At the time I was doing hauling and mining for a living, this video changed my EVE career. I just loved the idea of stalking your prey unseen, and just decloaking right next to them and attacking. Nowadays instead of needing a new pair of shorts your enemy needs a new rib from laughing so hard. I got into PvP, learned the ropes with the Arbitrator and graduated to the Pilgrim. I fly other races (notably Gallente, a bit of Caldari, just now getting into Minnie) but I always came back to the Pilgrim. While I can fly many ships the Pilgrim was my first love and it tears me up to see her reduced to a pile of scrap. If no change is made I predict we'll see prices of 30mil apiece in the next year, which will be amazing for a T2 cruiser. --
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:53:00 - [44] Originally by: Corwain Amarr do get shafted quite a bit, but I'm much more concerned with the Pilgrim than anything else. See, the Pilgrim is the ship that got me into PvP in the first place. Watched "Behind Enemy Lines" by Ginaz when I was a wee noob with 2 months under my belt. At the time I was doing hauling and mining for a living, this video changed my EVE career. I just loved the idea of stalking your prey unseen, and just decloaking right next to them and attacking. Nowadays instead of needing a new pair of shorts your enemy needs a new rib from laughing so hard. I got into PvP, learned the ropes with the Arbitrator and graduated to the Pilgrim. I fly other races (notably Gallente, a bit of Caldari, just now getting into Minnie) but I always came back to the Pilgrim. While I can fly many ships the Pilgrim was my first love and it tears me up to see her reduced to a pile of scrap. If no change is made I predict we'll see prices of 30mil apiece in the next year, which will be amazing for a T2 cruiser. this is exactly how i started with the pilgrim as well. and here we are, 20M sp later, in skills i tailored to the pilgrim, only for this ship to be shafted into neuterless. not too mention, it'll be tough to kill even turret based ships with the upcoming nerf to tracking disruptors (and I use the term, "tough to kill," loosely, because if people know wtf they are doing, you can get around them w/o using ANY modules.)
Orar Ironfist Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:07:00 - [45] Edited by: Orar Ironfist on 29/10/2007 23:07:24 Originally by: Grim86StonE Meh....I hate to bring this to you...but you guys are just wasting your time...Dev's and CCP don't give a rat's a-hole about Amarr pilots and their ships. We always get nerfed. We almost have no solo pvp ship that is competitive with it's counterparts from the other races. We have no respectable battleship:our damage dealer is paper-thin, the Apoc is a sitting hunk of metal incapable of doing any damage and the abadon....come on...if you can finish the fight in 60 seconds you're ok...if not...you're spacedust. Assault frigates are the absolute worst in the game...ffs...Retribution has 1 mid slot...thx ccp...Vengeance doesn't do any damage with it's "mighty" rockets.... Only one inty is actually useable. Recons are crap...nos-nerf took care of that, upcoming nerfs to ecm, sensor damps and tracking disrupts will render this ship even more useless than it's t1 counterpart...thanks CCP.... You thought it was over? Think again... Because in less than a month we will feast our eyes on the new most useless t2 ship in the Amarr arsenal: The Paladin. Stasis webifier, tracking and Repair amount bonus. What in good God's name are you doing there CCP?! I want to fly only Amarr ships because I love the way their ships look and because Amarr is my race. Because of your idiocy and your lack of care for Amarr you are takeing all this joy away from me (along with my money) and you leave me and many others like me with no options besides: a) quiting the game b) get pawned each time I go to pvp c) train another race Lovely CCP...thx alot. PS: sorry for deviateing from the main subject, but each time a new expansion comes out, Amarr get the shaft once more. I am sick and tirred of this. /Signed Srry to be off topic again but i know nothing about pilgrim flying so i didnt see a point in sayin anything about that. The above statement(the qoute) I agree with all except the abaddon and the paladin. The abaddon with awesome skills plus rigs and you have amazing versatility(cause you can fit anything) And the paladin you cant complain about because they stated they wanted the marauders to be MISSION ships not based around pvp, thus the web bonus for taking down the frigs in lvl4/5 missions also a nice healthy bump to this page -=YYYAAAAARRRRRRR!!!!!=- Winning or Losing doesn't matter, as long as the fight itself was good.
Einar Lightfingers Domini Umbrus VENOM Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:34:00 - [46] Edited by: Einar Lightfingers on 30/10/2007 00:35:36 Well, after losing yet another 160 mil+ pilgrim due to not enough cap (ganked a farming raven, then got set upon by his buddies... could have tanked them if I had the cap) to sustain the tank, I'm shelving my pilgrims until they get addressed. I'm not willing to throw hundreds of millions in faction/deadspace modules on a ship that has the ability to sustain a tank the way a piece of paper has the ability to sustain it's form if thrown into a bowl of water. I love the ship, and the idea behind it. The fact that the WHOLE idea of the ship got nerfed into oblivion, thus ending any real reason to fly it, leaves me dejected and disappointed. 3 days before the nos nerf, I finished training for the pilgrim/curse combo. I was ****ed to say the least lol. My kill/death ratio with the pilgrim is about 3/1 - 3.2/1. That's against real targets who have fought back, AND with a small (2-4 tops) recon gang behind me. Pitiful, I know. My curse has a 13.3/1 k/d. Majority of my kills with the curse have been solo, although I'm starting to gain kills with my small gangs. I've also since switched from using cap boosters to other methods of keeping my cap, since I'm operating behind enemy lines. Here's to hoping we get a atleast a LITTLE love... _______________________ CEO of Domini Umbrus
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:37:00 - [47] i hear that =( well, maybe tomorrow a dev or someone from ccp will speak up about the issues that the pilgrim has. probably not though, i will be surprised if someone does though, heh.
Crane Marshal	Posted - 2007.10.30 06:13:00 - [48] Originally by: Orar Ironfist The above statement(the qoute) I agree with all except the abaddon and the paladin. The abaddon with awesome skills plus rigs and you have amazing versatility(cause you can fit anything) And the paladin you cant complain about because they stated they wanted the marauders to be MISSION ships not based around pvp, thus the web bonus for taking down the frigs in lvl4/5 missions also a nice healthy bump to this page Sorry but if you fit CCC rigs on an Abadon you can't fit a full rack of guns and a decent tank. You have to fit powergrid rigs due to the PG issues that ship has (like most amarr ships). And Feng, you can be sure that at least one Dev saw this post but like I said they don't care. Still I will be bumping this thread daily because I am curious as to when will a Dev actually post something worth mentioning.
Stellar Vix State War Academy	Posted - 2007.10.30 06:26:00 - [49] I hope you do realize there are cruiser sized Ewar specific ships on the database still unused currently labeled escort cruisers, similar to how the frigates that turned into the EWS used to be the patrol frigate. These ships will likely see sisi the next time its time to add more ships in. So the relation these ships are supposed to be the baby cousins of the force recon is a bad analogy, and they dont seem to get any cloaking bonuses either for movement or just plain use of. the only baby bro the recons have are the stealth bombersish and covert opsish traits. Other than that i do agree the pilgrim and curse needs another look into making them dangerous vampires. SWA PVP
BugxEarl Amarr Division 9 Golden Leaves Izanagi Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 11:19:00 - [50] My current fit of Curse can pwn a vaga 1v1 as well as just about any other HAC/Recon (including Rapiers) so I'm not too keen on 'buffing' them. If anything, Curse and Pilgrim needs more cargo space. As for pilgrim...well, RIP Pilgrim.

Grytok KL0NKRIEGER	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:09:00 - [51] I think the Curse and the Pilgrim need the ability to run at least two Neuts indefinately without using a CapBooster, as this is their intended role: CAP WARFARE! So if we give those ships maybe a little increased capacitor or reduced recharge time it would help alot. If I go through the numbers, it would be fine by giving them a 20% better recharge time, which is practically a built in CapRecharger II. CapBoosters just don't cut it for those ships, as the cargo is too small, and even with 300m¦ more cargo, you'll not be able to engage in more then 2 fights, without having to get some new charges somewhere. .
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.30 12:25:00 - [52] I wonder when we'll get input from someone that works for ccp
Chromakey Dreamcoat Caldari Model Of Aggression	Posted - 2007.10.30 13:06:00 - [53] Edited by: Chromakey Dreamcoat on 30/10/2007 13:06:56 TBH I don't think many people use the pilgrim so it really doesn't get the attention it deserves. The game is heading in gank/tank direction and EWAR mods seem to be a mistake. Once tracking disruptors and remote sensor dampeners are "fixed" these ships (curse,pilgrim) will be almost defenseless in most cases and not worth training for. My pilgrim is out of cap again.
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.30 15:16:00 - [54] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=625436
Grim86StonE Amarr The Black Sea Pirates	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:35:00 - [55] Daily bump
Corwain Gallente Down In Flames	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:10:00 - [56] It's funny, we haven't even gotten much negative feedback in this thread. I remember when the Nos nerf went into effect and people would post stuff like "Fill the lows with CPRs and put CCC rigs on it, it is still good!" Guess those people actually fought someone with it and died. I'd really like some Dev response on this issue! --
Gorakh S.T.A.L.K.E.R.	Posted - 2007.10.31 21:52:00 - [57] It is difficult to add anything else to this topic but I feel like I just need to add my own point of view. Pilgrim was heavily (and quitely) nerfed in the process of all changes. Nos nerfs, cloack nerfs, ecm nerfs and now even some drone nerfs. Throwing 100pg at pilgrim and nerfing noses is a huge loss to every Pilgrim ship. I understand that before nos nerfs maybe that ship was slightly overpowered but I would argue it was nerfed way to much. Esentially pilgrim lost one medium slot for cap booster and as many pointed out its very very difficult to manage that cap with such small cargo. So first of all if we are gonna to keep anything close to old setup this ship needs additional medium slot. Many people talked about increasing cargo on pilgim so it could hold more cap boosters. I think it is interesting idea although I would like to present also a different one which may also add some balance. Pilgrim is a drone boat and basically 100% DPS comes from his drones. It is quite strange that it's drone bay has only 75m3. It may be a problem before introducing a bandwith but I guess it won't be a problemy anymore to add that additional drone bay cargo. People are being crazy about the fact that (half as cheap) Myrmidon got nerfed drone bay. Pilgrim in fact does literally zero damage ones the drones are knocked out. While we are introducing new drone interface maybe its a good idea to add (I would even say double) drones bay in Pilgrim? It would give this ship some redunancy with weapon and it makes perfect sense when you think drones is it's only weapon. Its a drone boat but unlike dominix or ishtar doesn't have any space for drones replacements. Last but not the least is it true that scooping and redeploying drones won't regenerate shields anymore? I hope it is not true because in the light of what I wrote above such ship as pilgrim will be a joke and it means pilgrim can't be used anymore for fighting anything except ships up to cruiser t1.
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.31 21:58:00 - [58] it is true :\
Gorakh S.T.A.L.K.E.R.	Posted - 2007.11.01 01:52:00 - [59] I can't even say how sad it makes me. I can't imagine how possibly you can fly a ship which: 1. All its DPS comes from drones 2. Don't have any replacement drones in cargo drones 3. Can't protect its drones by scooping and releasing them. Seems that Pilgrim is the worst recon ever. How it can be balanced game for drone boats? It would only make sense if CCP would add a possibility to target weapons systems of missile and turrets ships as well. Otherwise it is a very unfair move or to be complete honest - insane. Well in that case bye-bye Pilgrim. Seems its time to skill for Vaga.
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 02:24:00 - [60] My idea: required change to the whole force recon class as there just aren't enough bonuses to flip around to do it. Also for curse to use 5 light drones and HAM's for damage to distinguish it from the Carthum designed Pilgrim. == Force Recon Ship adjustment. 80% less fuel for cyno creation and vastly reduced duration your ship is stuck in space. Role Bonus Change: 80% reduction in Liq Ozone for Cyno Field Generation and Duration. -99% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level. Replacement for Cloaking bonus: Arazu: 10% medium hybrid turret falloff per level of Recon ships Rapier: 5% medium projectile turret damage per level of Recon ships Falcon: (3 turrets: 10% optimal range for med hyb turrets) (3 launchers: 10% missile flight time) Falcon should either have 3 turrets or 3 launchers with appropriate bonuses applied. Turrets would give it some direct fire at range and distinguish it from the launcher happy Rook. Pilgrim: Cruiser Bonus: 5% bonus to TD effectiveness and 10% reduction in Energy Neutralizer capacitor use (50% less cap for energy neutralizers) Force Recon Bonus: 40% Nos/Neut Range and 10% Drone HP/Damage per level. Pilgrim now has nos/neut range matching Rapier extended web range, Arazu extended warp scram/dis range, and Falcon ECM range bonus. 2 hvy drones or 5 medium drones with hp/damage bonus is consistent with the damage other force recons can muster. ================ Curse is a Khanid ship possessing limited bonuses given it's creator Khanid Innovations, which is know for: Missiles/Electronics: curse has launcher hardpoints but no reason to use them due to drones. Close Range Combat Philosophy: can maintain 30km range with nos/neut and drones. Distain for Turrets: yes, it only has 2 turret hardpoints. Advanced or State of the Art Armor Alloys: yes Curse = Khanid, but: -possesses drone, a carry over from arbitrator -has 4 missile slots, rarely used with no bonus to them. -must fit medium cap booster due to cap issues caused by nos change and reliance on neutralizers to disable the enemy. Especially important for MWD use. -4 low slots makes for an extremely fragile armor tank; worse than pilgrim. CURSE: Khanid Now mid swapped for low slot. Less Drone Space. 5H: 4L/2T 5M 5L 50m Drone Bay 25Mb/s Bandwidth Main Damage is Heavy Assault Missiles* Cruiser Bonuses: 5% bonus to TD effectiveness per level 10% Energy Neutralizer Capacitor need per level (50% less cap needed for Neuts) Recon Ships Bonuses: 40% Nos/Neut Range per level 10% HAM velocity per level The neutralizers require less capacitor eliminating the manditory cap inject just for nos/neut operation, but make the HAM's the primary damage dealer instead of the drones -distinguishes it from the pilgrim's damage dealing drones. Slight PG/CPU adjust may be needed to accommodate to fit 2 nos/neut and 3-4 HAM II's, 10mn mwd and at least 1 medium armor rep. With Curse and Pilgrim requiring 50% less cap use for their neutralizers, the neutralizer becomes the weapon but doesn't kill their own cap to use. Pilgrim and Curse stay as ranged ships, but their main method of damage keeps them from being identical ships. but that was just my 2 cents... flame away THUKKER -Be Paranoid Skeet Skeet L33t



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