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Tanthalas Astarte
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Posted - 2007.10.26 22:30:00 -
[1]
Title says it all, what are your thoughts on using these two ships in PvP?
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Laqua
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Posted - 2007.10.26 22:31:00 -
[2]
They can be great in a fleet, not the worst solo vessels either if fit and used correctly.
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Sorja
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.10.27 00:41:00 -
[3]
The drake has the highest DPS of all sub-BS ships.
Not because of it's missiles though, missiles and damage don't fit in the same sentence, but because you're the less likely to be targeted in fleet fights. It takes ages to kill a properly fitted Drake and the damage output is so low that people don't bother killing it.
So what happens is that you just stay there for the whole fight spamming missiles and happily make opponents warp away (and often kill them because of your secret 9th high slot: Improved Server Lag Generator III).
Raven is good for small gangs, that's about it. After patch, torps could bring life to that sore brick, wait and see. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Terianna Eri
Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out
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Posted - 2007.10.27 01:00:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Sorja The drake has the highest DPS of all sub-BS ships.
For the reasons you described, this isn't actually DPS, but DPF (damage per fight), because it sticks around to apply its low DPS for a longer period of time.
Missiles don't generally go with fleet fights though due to flight time issues - but I could be wrong. __________________________________
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Incantare
Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.27 01:16:00 -
[5]
The Drake and Raven aren't solo boats, though they can work as such you would be better off in an armor tanking ship. They aren't fleet ships either because of flight time.
That leaves small gang, where they are ok, though with the new torps the Raven just might become great.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2007.10.27 01:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Sorja The drake has the highest DPS of all sub-BS ships.
For the reasons you described, this isn't actually DPS, but DPF (damage per fight), because it sticks around to apply its low DPS for a longer period of time.
Missiles don't generally go with fleet fights though due to flight time issues - but I could be wrong.
They work only if the missile ships pick their own targets instead of firing on the primary. That's assuming it's a large scale, long range fleet battle. At mid to close range, missile ships have no problems whatsoever.
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Smakko
Ad Astra Vexillum Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.27 03:48:00 -
[7]
Solo / Small Gang Raven: (lows) 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II 2 x Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II (mids) 3 x Kapteyn Sensor Array Inhibitor I (phased muons are nice but too damn expensive imo) 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Medium F-RX Prototype I Capacitor Boost Warp Disruptor II (highs) 6 x Cruise Missile Launcher II Large YF-12a Smartbomb Heavy Energy Neutralizer I (or whatever named version you have lying around)
Carry med ecm drones and light t2 combat drones. It's a very slow ship so you have to know when to motor back to the gate, or to go ahead and engage. Faction cruises are a must have. The edge they give is too good to pass up. The ecm drones can be pretty effective on HACs and Recons, but larger ships with stronger sensors won't notice them too much. But 3 damps with decent skills can be crippling on anything up to BS class. Some ships are worth throwing both the ECM drones and damps on, because if they get close to you they'll rip you apart, ie Blaster-Megas.
Solo / Small Gang Drake: (lows) Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Beta Reactor Control: Reaction Control I (t2 reactor controls are a pain to train for) Overdrive Injector System II (mids) 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II (highs) 7 x Heavy Missile Launcher II Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I (rigs) Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I (drones) 5 x Warrior IIs (they're fast)
Always carry faction Scourges and Widowmakers. They are pretty awesome for compensating for the gimpy paper dps of the Drake. One key to doing well in PvP as a missile boat pilot is learning the resists of all ships and being able to switch damage types quickly. Most people will plug up any resist holes with a hardener or two, so it's the type of thing you need to do before you engage or when you get close to reloading. I usually split my rack with Kinetic and Thermal missiles and just hedge my bets that those are gonna give me the highest dps. If I notice any big difference in damage between the two types then I'll switch, otherwise I'll just leave it be. Many pilots don't expect a web and scram on a Drake. I've killed inties that got too close by neuting them, then MWD'ing close enough to get a web on it. They usually orbit around 12-17km or so which put them barely in med neut range. The shield resist rigs are relatively cheap, and I don't think a PvP Drake really warrants super nice rigs. If I wanted to pimp out a missile boat I'd do it to a Cerb or a Sac. T2 launchers are important because occasionally you might need to load precisions, especially if you're trying to take down a bunch of heavy drones or some tackling frigs. Short range boats can really chew you up as usual, but the resists on this loadout are pretty formidable. With decent skills and faction heavies you'll be able to break most tanks BC and lower. The one time I solo'd a Harbinger I was able to chew through his tank slowly but steadily. He got me into structure, and also approached me from 50km away, giving me a head start on damage dealing, but harbinger tanks are probably one of the tougher nuts to ***** for a solo-drake. I run from Sacs. I'll probably train Amarr Cruiser 5 in a couple months specifically to fly that ship.
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Mr Bodacious
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2007.10.27 03:51:00 -
[8]
I met a drake with an RSD and nano setup. Seriously, I couldn't beat him. He was slow, but fast enough to keep me out of lock range at some times. Being a speed tank, I didn't have a web, so of course, it was an uphill battle, especially with that monsters recharge. I had to MWD out and warp away.
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Arvald
Caldari House of Tempers
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Posted - 2007.10.27 03:54:00 -
[9]
in my experience, drake + caracal = win ---------------------------
Im in your forums derailing your threads |
AnKahn
Caldari Dark Star LTD Atrocitas
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Posted - 2007.10.27 06:32:00 -
[10]
Yes, Caldari are PvE easymode.
But we are also PvP hard mode. Perhaps tied with Amarr?
I wonder how many toons grow up on Caldari and turn into great PvPers using other races ships against them?
Just a late night thought.
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Acoco Osiris
Gallente Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.10.27 12:00:00 -
[11]
Caldari missile boats do decently in small gangs, with one exception.
The Crow is the penultimate solo interceptor. Its missiles need not track, so you can do full DPS even when MWDing around.
Otherwise, there's ECM boats (small gang work), the Rokh (extreme range fleet sniping), the Eagle (sniping out small ships), and the Harpy (sniping out frigates). I've also heard the Flycatcher interdictor does fairly well. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars. |
Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.27 12:25:00 -
[12]
Quote: It takes ages to kill a properly fitted Drake and the damage output is so low that people don't bother killing it.
Then it's not a properly fitted Drake. That "uber" tank is a useless waste of med- and lowslots - until someone shoots at you. Which, as you yourself point out, they won't, because no-one primaries a Drake.
Fit for ewar or HAMs to be useful in a Drake, and never fit SPRs, imo.
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Sorja
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.10.27 14:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote: It takes ages to kill a properly fitted Drake and the damage output is so low that people don't bother killing it.
Then it's not a properly fitted Drake. That "uber" tank is a useless waste of med- and lowslots - until someone shoots at you. Which, as you yourself point out, they won't, because no-one primaries a Drake.
Fit for ewar or HAMs to be useful in a Drake, and never fit SPRs, imo.
HAMs on a Drake? Won't connect and limits your target picking, I'm not even fond on HAMs on a Cerberus tbh, for various reasons. For small gangs, it's a different story, I'd fly a Rook over a Drake. E-War? Yep, before ECM nerf, I used to fit jammers even on the raven with only an armor med rep, those times are gone and with the incoming dampeners nerf, well...
When flying the drake in fleet fights, I always take fire at some point and what happens is that before my tank is down whoever was firing at the drake is either dead or warped out. That's with 3 BCUs in lows, 'properly fitted' doesn't mean PvE fitting ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.27 14:48:00 -
[14]
After the next patch the Raven will gain some soloabilityb but itwont really be perfect at it. Still it will be a dps monster everybody should have some in gang:) The drake/ferox i never liked thus my BC skill is still on lvl 2 and im not gonna change this soon... so no comment from me there..
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Ipos
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Posted - 2007.10.27 14:50:00 -
[15]
I'm not fond of HAMs for two reasons, grid and the lack of precision missiles. The last mentioned makes up for the crappy DPS in many situations.
- Mind you that this is theorycrafting aswell, not everything goes as smoothly as it'd seem on paper. Drakes do on occassion get primaried first, sometimes there's not even anyone calling out primary.
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Noisrevbus
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Posted - 2007.10.27 18:00:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 27/10/2007 18:03:35
Drakes and Ravens are not the outmost Caldari problem with Rev.
Sure they may not be great at everything, but they fill their nisches and/or at least will with the Trinity changes (Torpedoes and PvP Ravens). They do PvE and they can blob and mop things up in camps, good beginner's boats and bait ships. While not being PvP monsters they are however not really part of the allround problem.
Caldari rather suffer the same issues as Amarr in many situations, lack of mobility on other ships, not dictating their preferred ranges, low number of free midslots (which contain a brunt of the PvP driven modules, not only EWar but also active speedmods and capmods), mixed weapon slots killing dedicated (sniper-) damage roles and limited bonuses restricting the advantages of selective ammunition (KN bonus rather than DMG or ROF).
While the Drake and Raven are not wondeful omni ships they fill their PvE and tank roles quite well. The problem is rather the railboats (possibly barring the Rokh), the HACs and Recons. Moa -> Ferox -> Eagle, to a lesser extent Caracal -> Cerberus, and the Recons suffer the same issues as you portrait with the Curse and Pilgrim here; being the best at a certain type of EWar that have been diminished to a point of specialization and where it's questionable wether you really want a specialized ship for such a volatile and chancy role. EWar taking our tankslots also diminsh our already quite stationary ships further.
So all in all, lack of synergy is the main issue: Take a Rook for example.
- You don't nano it. - The damage output is not extreme, and suffer travelling issues, thus alpha. - Your EWar slots are shared with your primary tank slots, thus your EWar is your tank. - Your EWar of choice has been diminished to a point where you must stack modules. - The upkeep cost and PvP attraction makes several T-1 Blackbirds more appealing. - Fitting is nightmarish even with many AWU points, but that's an issue on the side.
Would you spend 100mil on a chancy ship to fill a onesided nische? Perhaps you would.
I wouldn't though, i'd rather throw away 10 Blackbirds to fill that role. EVE is a numbers game after all. Perhaps the Rook has it's place if you exclusively fly small gangs, have a good economy to rely on and really demand a lockpop in your team. That feels like a pretty narrow approach to me though. The Rook could also be the best standalone (solo) PvP ship, fitting tackle and hoping you crush your poorly tanked opponent under the jam. Still, it's allround application feel very narrow and expensive.
That's just me however, someone may know more or have more positive experiences .
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2007.10.27 18:17:00 -
[17]
In my experience, for every role a caldari ship fills, there is another ship that fills it better. Missle-spewing-rock-in-space tends to be their only function not filled by another race, and you'll probably still be out dpsed by a Thorax. Caldari arn't even the best ratters; they just have it easier because of the damage choice.
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