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Hardigeen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:03:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Taikun Because you can't prevent it.
A few weeks back soemone speculated on the Tritanium market and pushed the price of it up to 3.8 by gobbling up all the avaialabe sales in Jita 4-4.
That is what you are facing. Someone market speculating. This guy was burned because the demand wouldn't support that price level.
If the demand is enough to support your current min shortage then that is the new price and you should buy it and priuce your ships accordingly for your new input costs.
Does it suck?
Sure... instablity is crappy for manufacturers and consumers alike... but who knows, yo might be able to tag on an extra % returns on your prices as well if the market instability continues.
In other words, you might make more money because somebody is playing the market..
Taikun
Hmm , I'm not an expert in Tritanium but did't CCP introduce market cap to prevent price gouging?
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Hanoi Hana
Mitsubishi Group
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:05:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Hanoi Hana on 01/11/2007 02:06:09 The only person trolling this thread is Hardigeen. He constantly spurns advice, explanations, and intelligent conversation. Rather than to look for a rational discussion, I strongly suspect that he is here only to rile people up and get an emotional reaction. If I give him the benefit of the doubt on the issue, then the best I can say is that he is jealous of other people's money piles and doesn't want to work to earn his own.
By the way, this is our home and not yours. Before you call "troll" against some of the most established traders in this forum and in EVE, you should take some time to take a look around the forum and get a feel for who the main people are and why their advice is to be taken more often than not. I think the problem may be that you just painted into a corner by your earlier denials of helpful information and now you can't own up to it.
Here's some advice: Buy up a tenth of his stock of dysprosium when he drops prices again around 15 November, and wait for him to increase price again and then sell. What's that? It is a nice idea in theory, but you don't have the money to do that? Then let's punish the people who DID work hard to earn the money to now be able to enact such a plan.
Hardigeen, after the thread has gone this far, what exactly do you need to know now about dysprosium? That might help unrederail this thread (again).
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:10:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 01/11/2007 02:14:14 I guess i say something constructive. In the rare case that you are actually a misguided noclue, and not an entertaining troll:
You are mixing up 2 things that are entirely seperate: rarity of a good - and pricefixing / trading / providing liquidity to markets.
You are like those t2 whiners who accused t2 BPO owners or resellers of gouging back when cerbs sold for 200m each. The very same people complained about having to wait 12 months for their 80m cerb they ordered from Naga.
A trader CANNOT influence the price equilibrium at all. All he can do is either 1. cause temporal price fluctuations 2. remove volume out of circulation ("stockpiling"), thus influencing the supply / demand equatation. Obviously, this only works with things that have a fixed supply.
If the supply is variable, this can backfire badly. See Covetor BPOs. During the hulk rush, people just kept buying them from ORE and reselling them in empire. But during this goldrush economy, people bought TOO MANY, more then the market could actually support. Now people sell researched Covetor BPOs below NPC price.
So the thing you are complaining about isnt caused by a trader (as it cannot be caused by a trader). Its caused by the fact that invention and the seeding of t2 BPOS (you knew about that, did you?) finally increased demand for moon minerals, and some hit their physical cap (or are close to it).
Did you for one second think about the fact that it may be what CCP intended in the first place? 0.0 Moon minerals are finaly rare enough to fight over them. Thats what eve is about ...
Why did i write that anyway? People who read it already know it, and people like you dont read it. I could rant about how trading is not a crime but a service to the customer, but communists expect doctors to treat them for free, then whine because all the doctors starved to death.
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Hardigeen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:14:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Hanoi Hana Edited by: Hanoi Hana on 01/11/2007 02:06:09 The only person trolling this thread is Hardigeen. He constantly spurns advice, explanations, and intelligent conversation. Rather than to look for a rational discussion, I strongly suspect that he is here only to rile people up and get an emotional reaction. If I give him the benefit of the doubt on the issue, then the best I can say is that he is jealous of other people's money piles and doesn't want to work to earn his own.
By the way, this is our home and not yours. Before you call "troll" against some of the most established traders in this forum and in EVE, you should take some time to take a look around the forum and get a feel for who the main people are and why their advice is to be taken more often than not. I think the problem may be that you just painted into a corner by your earlier denials of helpful information and now you can't own up to it.
Here's some advice: Buy up a tenth of his stock of dysprosium when he drops prices again around 15 November, and wait for him to increase price again and then sell. What's that? It is a nice idea in theory, but you don't have the money to do that? Then let's punish the people who DID work hard to earn the money to now be able to enact such a plan.
Hardigeen, after the thread has gone this far, what exactly do you need to know now about dysprosium? That might help unrederail this thread (again).
I understand what hes doing and exactly how he is manipulating the market. I made post on this section of the forum after I figured out the whole cycle of artificialy increasing the price. The price history is there to show it. So nothing new there. As for me trading and doing what he does, or many of you do, I have no interest. I play in my field. My point still stands though, monopoly and price gouging to this extent is greatly affecting other areas of the game, and because this is not the real life, there should be a game mechanics that will prevent gouging without control. Simply saying that market will take care of it is not true.
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Hardigeen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:17:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 01/11/2007 02:14:14 I guess i say something constructive. In the rare case that you are actually a misguided noclue, and not an entertaining troll:
You are mixing up 2 things that are entirely seperate: rarity of a good - and pricefixing / trading / providing liquidity to markets.
You are like those t2 whiners who accused t2 BPO owners or resellers of gouging back when cerbs sold for 200m each. The very same people complained about having to wait 12 months for their 80m cerb they ordered from Naga.
A trader CANNOT influence the price equilibrium at all. All he can do is either 1. cause temporal price fluctuations 2. remove volume out of circulation ("stockpiling"), thus influencing the supply / demand equatation. Obviously, this only works with things that have a fixed supply.
If the supply is variable, this can backfire badly. See Covetor BPOs. During the hulk rush, people just kept buying them from ORE and reselling them in empire. But during this goldrush economy, people bought TOO MANY, more then the market could actually support. Now people sell researched Covetor BPOs below NPC price.
So the thing you are complaining about isnt caused by a trader (as it cannot be caused by a trader). Its caused by the fact that invention and the seeding of t2 BPOS (you knew about that, did you?) finally increased demand for moon minerals, and some hit their physical cap (or are close to it).
Did you for one second think about the fact that it may be what CCP intended in the first place? 0.0 Moon minerals are finaly rare enough to fight over them. Thats what eve is about ...
Why did i write that anyway? People who read it already know it, and people like you dont read it. I could rant about how trading is not a crime but a service to the customer, but communists expect doctors to treat them for free, then whine because all the doctors starved to death.
Some parts of your post might be worth replying, but then the trolling part just takes away the fun. Let me try your own words "you are an idiot".
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:18:00 -
[66]
Quote: My point still stands though, monopoly and price gouging to this extent is greatly affecting other areas of the game, and because this is not the real life, there should be a game mechanics that will prevent gouging without control. Simply saying that market will take care of it is not true.
Still waiting for a comment on my little price gouging experiment (proves people will always offer buy-orders well below market average, and people will always sell for well below average), tritanium and pyerite, *and* the four advanced materials I pointed out.
Point I'm making is that Quote: monopoly and price gouging to this extent is greatly affecting other areas of the game
this is simply not true.
Improve Market Competition!
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:20:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Hardigeen
Some parts of your post might be worth replying, but then the trolling part just takes away the fun. Let me try your own words "you are an idiot".
You got me. I was trying to troll you so that you slip up and tell us what else you do besides buying Dysprosium. So that i can pricefix that as well.
No seriously, a discussion with someone who doesnt actually say anything isnt fun, and you dont respond to my attempts at wit (neither does anyone else ...) so i leave it at that for now.
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Hardigeen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:24:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote: My point still stands though, monopoly and price gouging to this extent is greatly affecting other areas of the game, and because this is not the real life, there should be a game mechanics that will prevent gouging without control. Simply saying that market will take care of it is not true.
Still waiting for a comment on my little price gouging experiment (proves people will always offer buy-orders well below market average, and people will always sell for well below average), tritanium and pyerite, *and* the four advanced materials I pointed out.
Point I'm making is that Quote: monopoly and price gouging to this extent is greatly affecting other areas of the game
this is simply not true.
I think comparing Dysprosium and lets say Tritanium and Pyerite is just wrong, anyone can mine belt minerals, while Dysprosium moons are in hands of very few. As for price gouging, it certainly is affecting tech 2 production as I for one will not pay 100% more each time I need a batch of Dysprosium, so yeah 1 tech 2 producer less, at least for now.
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Hanoi Hana
Mitsubishi Group
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:27:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Hardigeen I understand what hes doing and exactly how he is manipulating the market. I made post on this section of the forum after I figured out the whole cycle of artificialy increasing the price. The price history is there to show it. So nothing new there. As for me trading and doing what he does, or many of you do, I have no interest. I play in my field.
My point still stands though, monopoly and price gouging to this extent is greatly affecting other areas of the game,
and because this is not the real life, there should be a game mechanics that will prevent gouging without control. Simply saying that market will take care of it is not true.
It's going to suck when it soon costs 30mil in parts now to build a T2 Inty but everybody is still selling them for 15mil!!!1 Oh, wait.....
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:27:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Hardigeen
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: Hardigeen Edited by: Hardigeen on 31/10/2007 23:49:45
Originally by: Shadarle Price gouging is not illegal in RL unless it is on an "essential" item. You are fully allowed to gouge on any item that is not required for survival in most cases, unless special laws have been written regarding that item or item class.
If it were illegal to gouge then a lot of markets would disappear very quickly.
Price-fixing, on the other hand, is illegal. You are now allowed to collude with other companies to agree on a price to charge for an item and to not lower your prices below this point. This is not what is going on here though.
Well I'm glad you gave up trolling and you came up with a valid point for this discussion. Question is, what is an "essential" item in RL or in this game? If no tech 2 item can be produced without Dysprosium, is that an "essential" material then? I don't understand why do you think that gouging the price of Dysporsium is ok, eventually everyone will have to pay more for tech 2 items including you while this guy is getting rich? Unless its in your personal interest....
If people are willing to pay a high price for something then that is what it is worth. If you don't want to pay for it then don't buy it. There is obviously enough other people purchasing it that its an acceptable price. This is market PvP at its finest and you lost. Pretty simple.
Seriously do you know what a buy order is?
Correct. But, if there is only one place/person to buy from then you MUST pay what he is asking for it. Like I said, you cant build 1 single tech 2 item without Dysprosium. IMO this situation is worst then farmers camping Cosmos complexes for decryptors and skillbooks.
Ok since you obviously have no clue what a buy order is I'll explain it in very simple English that I hope even you can understand.
A buy order is when you contract with an npc broker to purchase something for you at the price and volume you specify. If someone decides to sell whatever it is you are purchasing to you you then in turn pay the agreed upon amount for the item in question.
This is very different from a sell order where you are contracting with an npc to sell goods for you at the price and volume that you specify.
Can you comprehend the difference?
It's better then Quafe! |
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:28:00 -
[71]
Quote: I think comparing Dysprosium and lets say Tritanium and Pyerite is just wrong, anyone can mine belt minerals, while Dysprosium moons are in hands of very few.
Quote: Those items are not essential for game balance. Dysprosium is important as for example Tritanium. Its one of the basic blocks in tech 2 production process.
*cough*
But anyway, I think you're business sense is lacking if you refuse to pay more when your profit levels, combined with the amount of time to manufacture something, are unaffected.
As I said, with T2 battleships coming up, any spike will cause my base costs to rise, but will not affect my profit.
Improve Market Competition!
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Hardigeen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:37:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Hardigeen on 01/11/2007 02:40:22
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Ok since you obviously have no clue what a buy order is I'll explain it in very simple English that I hope even you can understand.
A buy order is when you contract with an npc broker to purchase something for you at the price and volume you specify. If someone decides to sell whatever it is you are purchasing to you you then in turn pay the agreed upon amount for the item in question.
This is very different from a sell order where you are contracting with an npc to sell goods for you at the price and volume that you specify.
Can you comprehend the difference?
Thank you for your advice, but I think you dont understand the fact that Dysprosium moons are owned by a handfull of people, and considering very high demand for it, they dont exactly need to go around and sell at low, when they can simply put it on the market and sell it at high, especially when someone wil buy it all as soon as they put up a sell order to resell it at his own gouged price.
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Hardigeen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:39:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote: I think comparing Dysprosium and lets say Tritanium and Pyerite is just wrong, anyone can mine belt minerals, while Dysprosium moons are in hands of very few.
Quote: Those items are not essential for game balance. Dysprosium is important as for example Tritanium. Its one of the basic blocks in tech 2 production process.
*cough*
But anyway, I think you're business sense is lacking if you refuse to pay more when your profit levels, combined with the amount of time to manufacture something, are unaffected.
As I said, with T2 battleships coming up, any spike will cause my base costs to rise, but will not affect my profit.
You are taking words or parts of the sentence out of context here...
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:44:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Hardigeen Edited by: Hardigeen on 01/11/2007 00:46:11
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote:
True, but if someone is capable of taking a control of one item/material then CCP should seriously consider increasing the available amount in game.
No. What about officer mods? Data Interfaces? There are a lot of people with a large combined wealth, any one of them could take control of EVE's many 'rare' markets. Scarcity means more erratic prices, and this *is* caused by market manipulation. One player can take control of one particular type of those and artificially raise prices too, I dont see complaints about 1.5 billion estamel's modified XL boosters tho, or 20 bil estamels invulnerability fields.
Further, try this too
Those items are not essential for game balance. Dysprosium is important as for example Tritanium. Its one of the basic blocks in tech 2 production process. Thats why price stability is a very important issue. You are comparing apples and oranges.
Better? Because the meaning still hasn't changed. I raised the issue of other controlled markets, you compared Dyspro to Tritanium. But semantics are off-topic.
Improve Market Competition!
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Hanoi Hana
Mitsubishi Group
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:45:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Hardigeen Thank you for your advice, but I think you dont understand the fact that Dysprosium moons are owned by a handfull of people, and considering very high demand for it, they dont exactly need to go around and sell at low, when they can simply put it on the market and sell it at high, especially when someone wil buy it all as soon as they put up a sell order to resell it at his own gouged price.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, GET OUT OF MY HEAD! WHEN DYSPROSIUM RISES AND NO OTHER MINERALS FALL, THERE IS AN INCREASE IN THE PRICE OF EVERYTHING THAT IS BUILT USING DYSPROSIUM. THIS MEANS YOU DON'T LOSE ANY MONEY BY BUYING EXPENSIVE DYSPROSIUM UNTIL THE GUY DECIDES (IF EVER) TO CASH OUT.
What are you still wondering??
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Hardigeen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:46:00 -
[76]
Anyways, I think this post I made is in the wrong part of forums. Most of the people that follow posts in here ARE the people that make a living in game price gouging and reselling so no point in arguing how much is that affecting the game, you all will obviously never agree with me for your own personall reasons.
Can mod please move this post to the appropriate section, and I think that would be Stations, Starbases and Outposts.
Thank you all for a nice discussion.
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Shadarles
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:52:00 -
[77]
Wow, we all got trolled REALLY badly by this guy.
He is an alt. He is blatantly trolling.
Best idea: Stop posting here and let him get bored with himself and go back to losing at market PvP.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.11.01 02:52:00 -
[78]
hmm, yes,, SSO, where there's apparently no concern at this judging by the topics, and it's business as usual for manufacturers.
Improve Market Competition!
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Benvie
Benvie Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.11.01 03:39:00 -
[79]
More spam: Question to tech 2 producers
Conspiracy hat on. I think this is the same person that posted this crap a month or two again. And I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same person who is controlling the market. Any publicity is good publicity right? Get people excited about dysprosium prices, etc etc.
Either way it's either trolling or manipulation.
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Hanoi Hana
Mitsubishi Group
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Posted - 2007.11.01 03:41:00 -
[80]
Now that you mention it, there has been several previous Dyspro articles in this forum, and I have posted on two of them that I could have sworn ALREADY having seen a Dyspro article here before.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.11.01 03:45:00 -
[81]
I <3 crossposts :)
Loving it more that there's still no responses because *shock* its not a big issue.
Improve Market Competition!
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Benvie
Benvie Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.11.01 03:46:00 -
[82]
Is someone trying to monopolise Dysprosium?
Dysprosium issue?
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.01 03:58:00 -
[83]
Alternatively, you could work out a deal with a third party to supply what you need.
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Hardigeen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 05:48:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Benvie More spam: Question to tech 2 producers
Conspiracy hat on. I think this is the same person that posted this crap a month or two again. And I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same person who is controlling the market. Any publicity is good publicity right? Get people excited about dysprosium prices, etc etc.
Either way it's either trolling or manipulation.
Your tinfoil hat looks really good on you.
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Hanoi Hana
Mitsubishi Group
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Posted - 2007.11.01 06:00:00 -
[85]
I thought you left? Sorry to be so "confrontive" (a perfectly cromulent word), but you are accomplishing nothing here, and it seems somewhat established that you are accomplishing nothing on purpose.
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Hardigeen
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Posted - 2007.11.01 06:10:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Hanoi Hana I thought you left? Sorry to be so "confrontive" (a perfectly cromulent word), but you are accomplishing nothing here, and it seems somewhat established that you are accomplishing nothing on purpose.
I did leave, but then I saw how you, residnet trolls of Market discusion forums on Evo site, troll anyone that would like to say something, I decided to come back and just be anoying as much as you are. So here I am, trolling back at you, calling you stupid idiots with no life, just because I like to do that at this moment.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2007.11.01 11:18:00 -
[87]
How about we all pretend to agree with him, and write flamming Jade Constantine-Style rants about how high dysprosium prices are relicts of the feudalistic past, supressing the free human spirit, keeping capsuleers from unlocking their true potential?
The one who has the best Jade Parody gets ... er ... a stack of Dysprosium?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.11.01 12:23:00 -
[88]
Or, you know, Hardigeen could be THE person who's buying all the dysprosium (well, his alt, whatever), waiting for everybody to start putting up insanely priced buy orders, then he'll just dump most/all of his overpriced stocks on the poor bastards who did think they'll make a killing _
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Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.01 12:50:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Hardigeen I play in my field. My point still stands though, monopoly and price gouging to this extent is greatly affecting other areas of the game
They're effecting your areas of the game.
And that gives me the lulz, because you're dumb and can't find a solution.
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Fabricati Diem
Burleigh and Strong
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Posted - 2007.11.01 15:27:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers How about we all pretend to agree with him, and write flamming Jade Constantine-Style rants about how high dysprosium prices are relicts of the feudalistic past, supressing the free human spirit, keeping capsuleers from unlocking their true potential?
The one who has the best Jade Parody gets ... er ... a stack of Dysprosium?
Can we hold off on that until I get my own stack of dysprosium ready?
I don't think the OP really came in here trolling. I think he's just seen his manufacturing costs steadily increasing, figured out someone is causing it intentionally, and is trying to do something about it. Raising the issue in this forum is akin to a gazelle appealing to lions about the predatory tactics of leopards.
Where the thread has gone now is another story, of course.
OP, can you still make a profit at his price? Can other people? Are people paying what he is charging? Then that's what dysprosium is worth. If you can't make a profit then stop doing what you are doing. He'll stop making a profit and stop doing what he's doing.
Of course, you can also start many threads about how there is great profit to be made undercutting the monopolist and hope for the best.
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