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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.12.10 00:51:00 -
[61]
Edited by: J Valkor on 10/12/2007 00:51:12
 Originally by: Gypsio III
Edited by: Gypsio III on 09/12/2007 23:56:41
Nighthawk has two main problems - gimped PG and the fact that it does only slightly more DPS than a Drake, when both are gank-fit. As such, I can't see the point of it in pvp - it can't fit a gang mod without multiple T2 RCUs, and Drake does almost as much damage - and can tackle - for a fraction of the price.
The difference between a Drake and a Nighthawk is that a Nighthawk is better than the Drake on every conceivable level in exchange for having higher skill requirements and a higher price tag.
But you probably have never flown a Nighthawk, nor ever plan to. That is fine. More Drakes to kill :P
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Verlaine Glariant
Knights of the Flame
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.12.10 02:06:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Edited by: Gypsio III on 09/12/2007 23:56:41
Nighthawk has two main problems - gimped PG and the fact that it does only slightly more DPS than a Drake, when both are gank-fit. As such, I can't see the point of it in pvp - it can't fit a gang mod without multiple T2 RCUs, and Drake does almost as much damage - and can tackle - for a fraction of the price.
Probably never flown a Nighthawk. It's alright. Not anyone is suitable for it.
Verlaine Glariant. Tactical Weapons Specialist.
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Gavri
The Republican Guard
Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2007.12.10 05:48:00 -
[63]
On Armageddon Day, I tested an astarte versus an absolution, and it was basically a no contest win for the abso. Astarte can't exactly kite an abso, and the abso can tank the astarte's damage a lot better than the astarte can tank the abso's damage. I capped out long before teh abso got anywhere close to running out of cap charges.
The lesson I learned from that duel was that first, fighting another cs solo generally isn't a good idea, and second, attempting to solo a abso with an astarte is a very risky proposition. :P
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Ruah Piskonit
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.10 06:48:00 -
[64]
I've been running the numbers with a 220VII (Barrage) and 3 gyros, I'm getting 400 or so DPS (a little less), with a full rack of HPLIIs (Scorch) I'm hitting 600 DPS (a little less) - now considering that optimal on 220VIIs is 3k or so, and Optimal on HPL with Scorch is 15k. Now yes, falloff is fantastic on a Sleph especially with Barrage - but its always in Falloff (a sleph at 3k means something went wrong) while the lasers are always in optimal (since thats the style of play). . .now I have not considered resistances but still, I don't see the sleph as doing more damage. . .
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.10 09:03:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 10/12/2007 09:03:47
Verlaine and J Valkor - I'd be interested to see your NH fits, thanks.
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Wardeneo
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Posted - 2007.12.10 09:20:00 -
[66]
so what about a vulture? i have herd its shield tank is as good if not better than a slep
wardeneo
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Niestrenna
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Posted - 2007.12.10 23:39:00 -
[67]
vulture has a fantastic tank indeed, but the damage potential of a wet paper toilet roll.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 00:03:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Gavri
On Armageddon Day, I tested an astarte versus an absolution, and it was basically a no contest win for the abso. Astarte can't exactly kite an abso, and the abso can tank the astarte's damage a lot better than the astarte can tank the abso's damage. I capped out long before teh abso got anywhere close to running out of cap charges.
The lesson I learned from that duel was that first, fighting another cs solo generally isn't a good idea, and second, attempting to solo a abso with an astarte is a very risky proposition. :P
properly skilled and fitted, an abso can stand 1v1 against any of the other Command Ships.
I would argue tho, that the other Command ships are better at lower skills. Plus speed is huge in 0.0....abso is a beast with web, scram, and injector in its meds...but getting stuck nullifies any tank.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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Distrans
n0thing Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 00:04:00 -
[69]
Sleipnir sucks 4ss for the buck
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 00:05:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
I've been running the numbers with a 220VII (Barrage) and 3 gyros, I'm getting 400 or so DPS (a little less), with a full rack of HPLIIs (Scorch) I'm hitting 600 DPS (a little less) - now considering that optimal on 220VIIs is 3k or so, and Optimal on HPL with Scorch is 15k. Now yes, falloff is fantastic on a Sleph especially with Barrage - but its always in Falloff (a sleph at 3k means something went wrong) while the lasers are always in optimal (since thats the style of play). . .now I have not considered resistances but still, I don't see the sleph as doing more damage. . .
fighting an sleip is a risky proposition for an abso, easiest the toughest of the command ships for the abso to face. This is mainly due to the sleips golden minnie t2 shield resists. And while the abso is stuck doing EM damage, the sleip is not limited to barrage, and while phased plasma wont have the range, it IS an option to consider....especially if the abso is a 0.0 fitted setup with a mwd and no web.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 00:07:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Distrans
Sleipnir sucks 4ss for the buck
only real arguement against the sleip is its price....but its mix of great damage of varying type, awesome tanking potential (if even for a short time) and best in class speed and agility...the sleip is not to be underestimated.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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Niffetin
Gallente
CONsordium Infinate
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Posted - 2007.12.11 00:16:00 -
[72]
Absolution, Sleipnir.
Although I shouldnt say Absolution, it might prevent the "needed" Amarr Boost 
WTS: Armageddon / Void L / Mobile Large Warp Disruptor |
Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.12.11 00:19:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Gavri
On Armageddon Day, I tested an astarte versus an absolution, and it was basically a no contest win for the abso. Astarte can't exactly kite an abso, and the abso can tank the astarte's damage a lot better than the astarte can tank the abso's damage. I capped out long before teh abso got anywhere close to running out of cap charges.
The lesson I learned from that duel was that first, fighting another cs solo generally isn't a good idea, and second, attempting to solo a abso with an astarte is a very risky proposition. :P
Hmm, had you gotten in web range, he would have been a dead Abso.
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
I've been running the numbers with a 220VII (Barrage) and 3 gyros, I'm getting 400 or so DPS (a little less), with a full rack of HPLIIs (Scorch) I'm hitting 600 DPS (a little less) - now considering that optimal on 220VIIs is 3k or so, and Optimal on HPL with Scorch is 15k. Now yes, falloff is fantastic on a Sleph especially with Barrage - but its always in Falloff (a sleph at 3k means something went wrong) while the lasers are always in optimal (since thats the style of play). . .now I have not considered resistances but still, I don't see the sleph as doing more damage. . .
Ok:
1) Even with 3 HS II, you only do 548 DPS with max skills with Scorch loaded. Add to that 5x Hobgoblin IIs and you get 647 DPS with max skills. In theory, you could also add a missile launcher to that, but that means you are either running only 1 med rep, or don't have a cap booster, and that's just silly. Also, lol at fitting 3 HS on an Abso. A practical Abso setup will only have 2 HS, which will give you 586 DPS (drones included)
2) You generally don't fit 220s on a Sleipnir; you fit 425s. With 3x Gyros (not a problem to fit since it's a shield tank), you get 574 DPS with max skills. Add to that 3x Hammerhead IIs and 2x Hobgoblins, you get 709 DPS, which is already more than the Abso. Than you can easily add a missile launcher on top of that.
Now granted, the Sleip will be in falloff. On the other hand, it won't have a tracking problem, fitting 3 damage mods isn't impractical, and its not doing the worst damage type in game.
Now when you move to close range ammo (for carrier ganking, for example), the difference becomes even more marked.
There you go.
D-F-C recruitment closed |
Distrans
n0thing Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 00:20:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
only real arguement against the sleip is its price....but its mix of great damage of varying type, awesome tanking potential (if even for a short time) and best in class speed and agility...the sleip is not to be underestimated.
Nope. Been quite a bit on testserver with this one against all the other CS, they outtank You, they web, they kill You (ok caldari only outtank you but not funny either).
Speed tanking is not an option as it maybe fast for a BC but it's still slow and running a XL-booster melts your cap in no time even boosted. Damage is sub-par no matter which type. I prefer a BS or a Vaga anyday, sticking to Claymore with mods for the gang-thing.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.12.11 00:32:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Distrans
Nope. Been quite a bit on testserver with this one against all the other CS, they outtank You, they web, they kill You (ok caldari only outtank you but not funny either).
Speed tanking is not an option as it maybe fast for a BC but it's still slow and running a XL-booster melts your cap in no time even boosted. Damage is sub-par no matter which type. I prefer a BS or a Vaga anyday, sticking to Claymore with mods for the gang-thing.
*******s, tbh. Yeah, you won't kill a Nighthawk any day soon, but neither will it kill you. Astarte you just need to orbit at 20 and he's dead meat. Absos can't fit a web, a point, a cap booster and a MWD all at the same time, so if he's webbing you, try to warp out. if you can't warp out, nav away (you'll still be faster than him if you are running your MWD). If he's keeping up, then he'll soon be dead cause he won't be able to run his MWD, guns and rep without a cap booster.
D-F-C recruitment closed |
Distrans
n0thing Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 01:17:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
*******s, tbh. Yeah, you won't kill a Nighthawk any day soon, but neither will it kill you. Astarte you just need to orbit at 20 and he's dead meat. Absos can't fit a web, a point, a cap booster and a MWD all at the same time, so if he's webbing you, try to warp out. if you can't warp out, nav away (you'll still be faster than him if you are running your MWD). If he's keeping up, then he'll soon be dead cause he won't be able to run his MWD, guns and rep without a cap booster.
*******s is to claim to be able to steer a BC in the tight between 15-20km against the same class. Means he either aligns hits mwd and warps off or approaches hits mwd webs and kills you (more likely). And yes abviously against Absolution You can try to warp out, fun stuff.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.12.11 01:25:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Distrans
*******s is to claim to be able to steer a BC in the tight between 15-20km against the same class. Means he either aligns hits mwd and warps off or approaches hits mwd webs and kills you (more likely).
Then there's something wrong with your fit, cause I do it quite easily.
D-F-C recruitment closed |
Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.11 03:22:00 -
[78]
A Sleipnir can die easily to someone who heat-pulses their MWD and web at the same time, since the overview doesn't update fast enough and an overheated MWD Astarte would be moving faster than the Sleipnir.
It's a nice ship but it's much less forgiving than a Vagabond. The XL tank variant caps out very quickly as well.
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Philipius Maximus
DEATH'S LEGION
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Posted - 2007.12.11 03:53:00 -
[79]
IMO, the Absolution is the best CS for its price. You can fit one with T2 mods and perform brilliantly.
For solo, go Astarte. For gang, go Abso or Sleip.
If I had another race's CS to fly, it would be the Sleip, hands down.
Phil
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Ruah Piskonit
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 05:36:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Ruah Piskonit on 11/12/2007 05:37:31
ok fair enough, but with 425IIs, you need to be within 11km in order to outdamage (on pure unresisted numbers - just based on chance to hit with same ammo damage with tracking/falloff for Barrage and scorch calculated) an absolution. And this is just slightly (we are talking 8%) more damage after which the Absolution passes the Sleph in damage and at 17km hits more, and does over 50% more damage (again without resistances calculated) on target at 22km. They meet again at 34k after which the Absolution drops to 0 damage while the Sleph misses an ungodly ammount and does practically no damage.
Now I don't fit 3HSIIs on my Absolution, I fit 2, and I can perma-run 2 MARIIs with considerably higher resists then a sleph while fireing all my guns and running a webber or warp disruptor II. . .now with 2 Auxillary Nano Pumps (and yes I have 'max skills' because I'm PIE) I have an ungodly more powerful tank.
The Sleph on the other hand can run a large dread gurista shield rep (on my alt) for 11 mins as long as I have cap charges and thats with the MWD turned off. . .
So while the Sleph can run (I get 1300km/m) from some things (not inties or vegas which are quite common) it cannot sustain its tank (11 mins is a lot granted) especially with a MWD (which is a burst thing anyway - but it eats cap like a explitive) and its dps is lower at BC/CS ranges which I consider to be 15km+. . .
Now I know you trained for it, and while I can see the Vega as something people would train for just because the idea of a nano Zelot does not appea. . .when it comes to CSs, the Absolution is hands down a superior gang ship. And yes, this is from experience in combat with both of them.
Now Des, tell me, now that you have both in your hangar - which do you find yourself taking out more and why - and saying "Absol because its cheaper' is cheating.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.12.11 12:47:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
Edited by: Ruah Piskonit on 11/12/2007 05:37:31
ok fair enough, but with 425IIs, you need to be within 11km in order to outdamage (on pure unresisted numbers - just based on chance to hit with same ammo damage with tracking/falloff for Barrage and scorch calculated) an absolution. And this is just slightly (we are talking 8%) more damage after which the Absolution passes the Sleph in damage and at 17km hits more, and does over 50% more damage (again without resistances calculated) on target at 22km. They meet again at 34k after which the Absolution drops to 0 damage while the Sleph misses an ungodly ammount and does practically no damage.
You just can't ignore resists. Base DPS figures are only good for e-peen boosts. And actual DPS is why the Sleip does better damage, even in falloff (up to a point, I suppose, but I'm not sure how one would go about calculating that).
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
Now I don't fit 3HSIIs on my Absolution, I fit 2, and I can perma-run 2 MARIIs with considerably higher resists then a sleph while fireing all my guns and running a webber or warp disruptor II. . .now with 2 Auxillary Nano Pumps (and yes I have 'max skills' because I'm PIE) I have an ungodly more powerful tank.
The Sleph on the other hand can run a large dread gurista shield rep (on my alt) for 11 mins as long as I have cap charges and thats with the MWD turned off. . .
So while the Sleph can run (I get 1300km/m) from some things (not inties or vegas which are quite common) it cannot sustain its tank (11 mins is a lot granted) especially with a MWD (which is a burst thing anyway - but it eats cap like a explitive) and its dps is lower at BC/CS ranges which I consider to be 15km+. . .
Thing is, "burst" tanks aren't bad, per se. Far from it. The Sleip's tank is better for when you need to deagress and jump through when called primary (better "reinforced" tank than the Abso's).
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
Now I know you trained for it, and while I can see the Vega as something people would train for just because the idea of a nano Zelot does not appea. . .when it comes to CSs, the Absolution is hands down a superior gang ship. And yes, this is from experience in combat with both of them.
I disagree. Aside from the reasons already stated, you can't credibly fit a gang link on an Abso without gimping your DPS, your tank or your speed, while you can fit a gang link easily on a Sleip just by downgrading from 425s to 220s, which only lowers your DPS slightly (but gives you better tracking at the same time).
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
Now Des, tell me, now that you have both in your hangar - which do you find yourself taking out more and why - and saying "Absol because its cheaper' is cheating.
The Sleipnir: Faster, more agile, more actual DPS at most ranges, can fit a gang link, better burst tank. In fact, I basically haven't used my Abso in months now.
D-F-C recruitment closed |
Malaphar
Making Our Way to Stars
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.12.11 14:19:00 -
[82]
Absolution is IMHO by far the deadliest FCS out there :
High Slots = 6 x Heavy Pulses II w/TS or DB or Amarr Navy Multifreq.M
Med Slots = 1 x 10MN MWD II ; 1 x Stasis Webber II ; 1 x Cap Booster w/800s
Note : can switch Webber for a Tracking Disruptor II w/Track Speed Disruptor script in case of Minmatar/Gallente CS
Low Slots : 2 x TS/DB Medium Armor repairer ; 2 x TS/DB Heat Sinks ; 3 x TS/DB/Amarr Navy EANMs
Rigs : 2 x Capacitor Control Circuit I
Drones : 2 x Webifier Drones or 1 x Webber + 1 x ECM drones
Highlights :
Max Speed = around 1300-1400 m/s = more than enough to get in optimal of ANY CS/BS/BC extremly fast!
Rezistances (EM/Kin/Expl/Therm) = 86 / 90 / 92 / 83
Average RAW DPS = 890
Can sustain everything on for almost 15 mins , with only 1 repper running Cap never ends!!
Repairs around 1000 armor every 7 secs = roughly 145 per sec,meaning RAW DPS tanked as follows (EM/Kin/Expl/Therm) : 891 / 1305 / 1668 / 708 or roughly 1039 ANY RAW DPS
Beat that!
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E Vile
Fifth Exiled Legion
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.11 15:17:00 -
[83]
Speaking dps
Can I get someone to post numbers to compair.
1. max skills with 2 dmg mods in lows (bcu, mag stab ex..)
2. no dmg mods other then skills.
To me the nighthawk is way lower then the others when it comes to dps.
Would be nice to have a 7th launcher to bring it up to par with the others.
Don't tell me the nighthawks tank is better and thats the reason because you can dedicate all meds and lows in the others and tank just as well. I've seen all commands tank like madmen.
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Jeetah
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Posted - 2007.12.11 15:18:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Riho
i can fly sleip and astarte.... both are great... but id go whit absolution tho... VERY uber ship :)
Gotcha!
Nerf amarr. |
Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.12.11 16:14:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Malaphar
Highlights :
Max Speed = around 1300-1400 m/s = more than enough to get in optimal of ANY CS/BS/BC extremly fast!
Rezistances (EM/Kin/Expl/Therm) = 86 / 90 / 92 / 83
Average RAW DPS = 890
Can sustain everything on for almost 15 mins , with only 1 repper running Cap never ends!!
Repairs around 1000 armor every 7 secs = roughly 145 per sec,meaning RAW DPS tanked as follows (EM/Kin/Expl/Therm) : 891 / 1305 / 1668 / 708 or roughly 1039 ANY RAW DPS
Ok, first of all, your numbers are all wrong:
Top speed: 1233 m/s
Resistances (EM/Kin/Expl/Therm) = 86 / 84 / 89 / 77
Raw DPS: 637
Can sustain everything for 2m54s
Repairs exactly 720 armour every 9 secs = exactly 80 per sec, which means that the DPS you can tank is much lower than what you posted (CBA to actually do the math right now).
Oh, and you only have room for 1 Web Drone on the Abso.
Originally by: Malaphar
Beat that!
Ok:
Sleipnir
7x 425 II w/ Republic Fleet EMP (I'd use Hail normaly, but you used faction ammo, so I'll do the same)
1x HAM II w/ Caldary Navy Assault Missiles
1x 10MN MWD II
1x DG XL SB
1x Cap Booster w/800s
2x DG Invuln II
1x DCU II
3x Republic Fleet Gyros
1x PDS II
1x Anti-Kinetic Screen Solidifier
1x Core Defence Operational Solidifier
1x Web drone, 3x light ECM drones
Max Speed: 1422m/s
Resistances (EM/Kin/Expl/Therm): 86/81/85/81
Raw DPS: 734 DPS
Can only sustain everything for 33s, but that's shield tanks for you.
Repairs 825 Shields every 3.4 seconds = 242 shields/s.
So yeah, I got ya beat on everything but sustainability.
D-F-C recruitment closed |
Ruah Piskonit
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 20:20:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Ruah Piskonit on 11/12/2007 20:24:01
ell, you must be a better sleph pilot then most then, because every fight against one I have had (now there is a gang for both sides being called in. . .so its really not 'science') has been either the sleph runs or the tacklers get him and he dies. I have never had a sleph or any CS (expept a very powerful Astart) overpower my duel MARII with Aux nano pump tank - I rep too much and I just keep it on. . .
I suppose its style of play really. . .but the Absolution is a real monster in a gang, especially since I am usually flying with bigger ships, not smaller ones.
I am not say byy any stretch that the sleph is an inferior ship, I am simply stating that there is a trade off going on here.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.12.11 20:39:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Deschenus Maximus on 11/12/2007 20:44:10
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
ell, you must be a better sleph pilot then most then, because every fight against one I have had (now there is a gang for both sides being called in. . .so its really not 'science') has been either the sleph runs or the tacklers get him and he dies. I have never had a sleph or any CS (expept a very powerful Astart) overpower my duel MARII with Aux nano pump tank - I rep too much and I just keep it on. . .
I'm not the greatest pilot ever, but I know enough to usually stay alive. The thing with an Abso vs Sleip fight is that the Abso hits almost exclusively the Sleip's highest resist when in Scorch range, whilst the Sleip will be hitting the highest resist, but also the second lowest. Basically, it's going to end up a long fight, but if you're careful, you should win in the end, because an Abso cannot run guns + dual rep without cap charges, whilst the Sleip only needs to cycle his SB enough to keep up with damage, and occasionaly his MWD (to maintain 20km orbit), and his guns will keep going without cap. And failing that, as you said, it's usually possible to just run away.
Originally by: Ruah Piskonit
I suppose its style of play really. . .but the Absolution is a real monster in a gang, especially since I am usually flying with bigger ships, not smaller ones.
There's one area where the Abso totally has the Sleip beat, and thats as a heavy support in large fleets (plates + resist bonus = win). Thing is: do you really want to use a 200M uninsurable ship in a laggy fleet fight?*
The way I see it, the Abso needs a 7th turret (Amarr should never be outdamaged by Minnie, never ever), and the EM damage issue really, really, REALLY needs to get sorted out ASAFP. Aside from that, a 4th med wouldn't hurt, but I could live without it if the other 2 aforementionned points are fixed.
*Of the 5 Absolutions I lost, 4 of them were lost in fleet fights IIRC... the 5th was lost when I decided that I was going to take down a Nyx on my own... epic fail.
D-F-C recruitment closed |
Distrans
n0thing Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 20:51:00 -
[88]
someone turn off that troll with the long posts and the windshield
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Distrans
n0thing Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 21:12:00 -
[89]
You make one wonna train Amarr BC to 5 just to hand it over to You and your fancy faction fit even with AC fitted to an Absolution.
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shinsushi
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Posted - 2007.12.11 21:13:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
The way I see it, the Abso needs a 7th turret (Amarr should never be outdamaged by Minnie, never ever), and the EM damage issue really, really, REALLY needs to get sorted out ASAFP.
QFT!
Why a quicker, more versatile races outdamages a 1-dimensional races is something I will never, ever get.
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. |
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