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Jacob Lyon Chieve
Sanguis Mortem Industrial
1
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Posted - 2012.01.27 15:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
My question is, how do other corps handle pay for their members - particularly NON-maxed skillsets and low-grade mining ships/frigates/cruisers?
Currently, the corp that I co-lead pays it's members by giving everyone the same rate, calculated as such:
Rate = (Contract_Price/Corp_Total_Hours)*0.9 Pay = Rate * Member_Total_Hours
The 0.9 factor accounts for a 10% Corporation "skim" so we can keep the Wallet up. Currently, we're new-ish (2 months old) so we don't yet push the numbers we need in order to provide 100% financing on ships/books/etc. But I feel we make up for it by an aggressive pay rate.
Now, I realize this helps young players, and hurts veteran players due to the "average" efficiency it is calculating. However, since we are in the recruiting stage I feel this is attractive to the base we are speaking to.
And lastly - the contracts we are responsible for filling typically take a while to complete, meaning there is usually a period of time where members are waiting for ISK that is tied up in contract deliveries. I imagine that once our wallet is where it needs to be, we'll be paying on a consistent schedule... how to handle this properly?? Immediate gratification is very attractive in EVE, and the longer someone waits for pay the less the pay *appears* to be! |
Vex Thee
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.27 15:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
* Pay by amount mined works for both veterans and newbies. Look into something called mining buddy
Another possibility for tax is to just charge member dues monthly bi weekly instead of taxing on the ore straight up.
p.s: If your isk is being tied up your taking contracts that are probably to big to fill for you. and you should accept more smaller ones to keep the isk flowing. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
457
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Posted - 2012.01.27 15:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Personally, I like Dedaf's approach on the payout scheme.
I assume that "contract work" means you get an order for say 10m trit and various amounts of other materials? |
Jacob Lyon Chieve
Sanguis Mortem Industrial
1
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Posted - 2012.01.27 16:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yes, by contract work I mean Hi-Sec mineral acquisition. The contracts we have now are large for us, no doubt - but it's keeping a good bankroll going, just not every day... once per week or so.
I've tried mining buddy, never got to like it though. The spreadsheets I've developed (*quite extensively* I might add) contain all the data pertinent to our operation. It's not that I *can't* track how much ORE is produced, it's that we collectively agreed on the method currently being used.
I'm not against our method - I'm just trying to improve pay-times and keep the instant gratification flowing. When a member is owed ~80mil and that same member is eyeing a Hulk purchase, the pay cycle can seem unbearable. |
Vex Thee
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.27 16:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
so essentially your asking us how you can fill your orders?
your flaw i see is that :
|Miners - > Corp - >Client
|Miners <------------Client
so the corp has no money to pay its miners. and thus the miners need to wait on the client. I don't know what your spending the tax but you should have that looked at.
anyway on point
your contracts are to large
solutions? Get more miners
Get a smaller contract
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GreasyCarl Semah
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2012.01.27 17:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
It is a cash flow problem. Now you know why businesses need short term loans such as commercial paper. Or your corp needs more assets. Even with more assets, sitting on the cash may not be the wisest use of capital. If your short term borrowing rate is less than your return on the equity you employ then you should keep your wallet empty and keep your equity working.
Btw, if any of you guys want to come down to Winmatar space and mine, I'll buy all the ore you can pull at reasonable prices, you don't have to haul it either, just dump it at a station and go back out to the belt. |
Jacob Storms
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.27 17:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Why not just sell ore wiht instant sell and split the money right away. When corp finances are better that you can start paying your miners then move back to the contracts to make even more Isk. With this plan then you can keep your miners happy and thus corp is happy and like real life, Don't bite off more than you can chew.
But, if you want you can always place the ore for sale at a few isk below the local price and still be above the insta sell rate to make a little more isk.
What are you mining?
I mine (my alt does) Plag then i refine it and sell the minerals on instant sell and I make good isk at it. I run a hulk / Orca combo and my skills suck compared to others so I could stand to make a lot more down the road.
But I woiuld think insta sell your ore or minerals which ever is higher and corp pockets their cut and miners go away happy.
I wonder if you would divide the profit up via percentage if it would work... for instance.
100% all ore/isk - 10% corp
90 % for miners then divide that up by number of miners and take 5% off frigs and 2% off cruisers and redistribute that among the hul/ret pilots. eh.. basic idea, i am sure it can be worked out, but i would go insta sell it till you get your corp finances to the place you can pay miners out right.
Just my 2 cents but I am at work and i have not thought it through. :-)
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Jacob Lyon Chieve
Sanguis Mortem Industrial
1
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Posted - 2012.01.27 17:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Positive feedback and ideas, all. Thank you.
I'll be the first to admit that we need more miners to properly deliver on the contracts. One contract is a weekly contract by nature, and it takes almost half the week to fill it at our current membership level. The price on the contract is quite comfortable, so I would be remiss to turn it down.
Nobody is complaining about income, yet. It's just the forward-thinker in me that is creating solutions in advance of upcoming problems.
The Corporate Take isn't being spent at all - we are trying to pad the wallet as much as possible so we can begin to get aggressive with recruitment and ship loan programs. |
Jacob Storms
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.27 18:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Where are you mining at? if I may ask.
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Jacob Lyon Chieve
Sanguis Mortem Industrial
1
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Posted - 2012.01.27 18:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Greater Jita area, like most hi-sec corps. We're not experiencing stiff competition locally, outside of the usual anti-Carebear harassment. It's been said before: Hi-Sec mining is really cake right now. |
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Kestrix
Industrial Renaissance MinTek Conglomerate
3
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Posted - 2012.01.27 18:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
The way we do it is when the mining Op starts every member of the fleet types 'start' in the fleet window. There is no chatting in the fleet window. When a player leaves they type 'stop' This gives us log of how long each member has worked for. The ore from the mining Op is contracted to the corp and a report is filed on the fourm detailing who was prestent and for how long and what was mined. The Op is paid out at prices set by the corp and posted on our forums. It is refined and a breakdown of the minerals is posted in our forums and the ISK is split accross the members according to their time spent mining. If everyone mined for the same length of time it's an even split reguradless of skills or ships this helps the lower skilled miners who might otherwise have been put off by seening most of the isk go to the experanced miners. This also rewards the players who put the most work in. |
Skorpynekomimi
E.A.D Alliance Omega Vector
96
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Posted - 2012.01.27 19:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
I suggest you take smaller contracts at the same time as larger ones, to provide some cashflow while you fill larger ones. Otherwise, pay the miners when the corp gets paid. Commission-based rather than wage-based.
Also, a question. Why are you mining for OTHER people? Why not just cut out the middle man and manufacture stuff yourself? You'll see more of the profit, and faster. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
462
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Posted - 2012.01.27 21:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Skorpynekomimi wrote:I suggest you take smaller contracts at the same time as larger ones, to provide some cashflow while you fill larger ones.
This, TBH... at least until you get enough ISK to bankroll larger contracts... |
GreasyCarl Semah
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2012.01.27 22:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Skorpynekomimi wrote:I suggest you take smaller contracts at the same time as larger ones, to provide some cashflow while you fill larger ones. Otherwise, pay the miners when the corp gets paid. Commission-based rather than wage-based.
Also, a question. Why are you mining for OTHER people? Why not just cut out the middle man and manufacture stuff yourself? You'll see more of the profit, and faster.
You can always mine more ore than a single character will use for manufacturing, even with perfect production skills when producing ammunition. It takes few minerals and a lot of time. I find that I just can't produce fast enough to use it all. The ship market isn't all that profitable. And stepping up to capital component production is costly. So you end up selling minerals. |
Jason McCoy
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
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Posted - 2012.01.27 22:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
We developed this spreadsheet a few years back. We loved it and lived by it. At first it may be very intimidating, but its straight forward.
THe fleet commander has to input all the ore mined, update the prices queing the market and the sheet does all the math. You can even manipulate the corp tax amount and again it does all the math for you.
Obviously the corp must have a bankroll in order for this to work. We started out with 100M and it worked out like a charm.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhDXWxDU4z-udFZDMW1kNzFtb2N6M1MwalctM3hUWlE
hmmm seems like you must sign in, in order to see the document.
try it and let me know. |
Radelix Cisko
The Adjustment Team
21
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Posted - 2012.01.27 23:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jacob Chieve, I myself am starting to get into production. If you have free time I would like to talk about making use of your services. I am located in the area of Jita so the product would not have to be moved far.
Contact me in game or by evemail. I'm US TZ BTW
-Radelix |
Lakhthaar
STK Scientific
5
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Posted - 2012.01.28 02:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
There is one thing I would recommend to help with your capital situation.
At least twice a month have a corporate mining operation. Everybody online needs to be in fleet and mining, hauling, tanking or providing bonuses via Orca/Rorqual. Nobody gets paid. It's common cause for the betterment of the corporation. Sure there will be some people that complain. Who cares, kick them out then. Do you really want people in the corporation that cannot give up two days a month for something bigger than themselves?
You'll notice that some people won't log in on those nights too. Either give rewards to people that consistently show up or lean on the ones that do not.
It won't make you rich over night but it will help in the long run. |
Sarell Ensa
Unour Heavy Industries
0
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Posted - 2012.01.28 02:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
We just pay people for whatever ore they mine. It's up to them how much to drop in a contract at once, but we make sure we're fast about accepting them. In that way, it's similar to solo miners who have to decide when to stop mining and haul their products to market.
And in response to the guy above, we try not to have "for the corp" mining ops. Unless your corp directly gives its members something substantial ("a chill place to hang out" doesn't count) you're going to have people asking "what's in it for me?"
If capital is really that much of a problem, you can pay them a bit less for these ops than you would normally.
But frankly, if capital is a problem, you need to look at your sources of income more closely. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1307
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Posted - 2012.01.28 03:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
My preferred method is to accept a nice big, monthly contract, have everyone mine at a fevered pitch until it's full, then kick everyone and take the minerals to Jita.
EDIT: You're also now seeing the problem with new-ish or poor-ish CEOs. You need a fair bit of capital to start a corp and keep it running until it becomes self sustaining. Mining corps (while silly) are no different. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
Ireland VonVicious
Gurista Saints Assassin Confederacy
17
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Posted - 2012.01.28 04:46:00 -
[20] - Quote
1. Get orca pilot.
2. Have orca lead the mining opperation.
3. Have him tractor beam in each players jet can.
4. Have him keep track of what is pulled in with each player using window mode and a spread sheet.
5. Have corp take small cut ((5% or so)). 10% is too much for miners.
6. Have orca take % of ore after tax income based on the number of players in the fleet.
7. Have orca give all the miners the ore they mined at the station you are opperating from.
Done. On to the next.
If your group manufactures:
Post contracts for corporation at buy order levels from your local market for the minerals you need. Corp mates won't mind selling at buy order prices if they know it helps the corp. Build the stuff your miners use. Ships/lasers/drones. Sell the items produces to corp members at less then market sell orders. Now they feel even better about the tax and selling of minerals to the corp.
Populism at it's finest
What to do if all noobs and have no orca?
If you want to run a few smaller scale things look into GSC's in a couple of systems. Setup 7 or so per belt. Different password per belt and assign the belts. Pickup the ore in them yourself or use a trusted corp hauler take a cut for hauling ((10% roughly)) and a cut for corp ((5%)). Contract them the rest.
Make it all optional! Have your corp tax match your mining tax. Give better discounts on ships/parts to those who are most involved to encourage people to join the fleets. Recommend a 3 tier system and only adjust price by 5% between them. Something like: 1% below lowest sell order in area for new members. 3% for vetrans. 5% for those who take leadership roles. |
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Skorpynekomimi
E.A.D Alliance Omega Vector
97
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Posted - 2012.01.28 06:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Skorpynekomimi wrote:I suggest you take smaller contracts at the same time as larger ones, to provide some cashflow while you fill larger ones. Otherwise, pay the miners when the corp gets paid. Commission-based rather than wage-based.
Also, a question. Why are you mining for OTHER people? Why not just cut out the middle man and manufacture stuff yourself? You'll see more of the profit, and faster. You can always mine more ore than a single character will use for manufacturing, even with perfect production skills when producing ammunition. It takes few minerals and a lot of time. I find that I just can't produce fast enough to use it all. The ship market isn't all that profitable. And stepping up to capital component production is costly. So you end up selling minerals.
Someone buys the minerals. For manufacturing. If you're selling excess, you're thinking too small. Build moar. |
Jacob Lyon Chieve
Sanguis Mortem Industrial
1
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Posted - 2012.01.28 12:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
I have been reading everyone's replies, and I must say there is a wide base of options to choose from. A lot of good ideas here, some more attractive than others. I have received a few emails from interested business leaders, to which I will respond. I am currently on the road for business IRL so I will get back to all inquiries in a few days. |
Jacob Lyon Chieve
Sanguis Mortem Industrial
1
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Posted - 2012.01.30 14:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
Just a couple updates:
1.) Based on feedback that you guys so kindly provided, we've canceled our largest contract and are actively looking for small/manageable sized contracts. 2.) I have replied to those who have already contacted me or have expressed interest in business relations with Sanguis Mortem Industrial
I've spoken with our members at length and we have agreed the best method is to have daily/bi-daily contract execution. Our mineral production (and existing assets) will easily allow for small contract execution every day, or small-to-mid every other day.
That said, my perspective on what "small" and "mid" are may be askew... anyone have guidelines on that? |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1329
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 14:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jacob Lyon Chieve wrote:Just a couple updates:
1.) Based on feedback that you guys so kindly provided, we've canceled our largest contract and are actively looking for small/manageable sized contracts. 2.) I have replied to those who have already contacted me or have expressed interest in business relations with Sanguis Mortem Industrial
I've spoken with our members at length and we have agreed the best method is to have daily/bi-daily contract execution. Our mineral production (and existing assets) will easily allow for small contract execution every day, or small-to-mid every other day.
That said, my perspective on what "small" and "mid" are may be askew... anyone have guidelines on that?
Whatever you can comfortably mine/xport in the 1-2 day window you're looking at. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
323
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Posted - 2012.01.30 20:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jacob Lyon Chieve wrote:Just a couple updates:
1.) Based on feedback that you guys so kindly provided, we've canceled our largest contract and are actively looking for small/manageable sized contracts. 2.) I have replied to those who have already contacted me or have expressed interest in business relations with Sanguis Mortem Industrial
I've spoken with our members at length and we have agreed the best method is to have daily/bi-daily contract execution. Our mineral production (and existing assets) will easily allow for small contract execution every day, or small-to-mid every other day.
That said, my perspective on what "small" and "mid" are may be askew... anyone have guidelines on that?
So long as nobody was complaining, I personally would have kept the large contract and "coasted" until your corporation had enough liquid ISK to keep your miners paid on a per op basis. Once you can do that, then you focus on expanding.
Furthermore, I personally believe that corp taxes should be ideally less than the amount of ore generated by fleet bonuses. That is to say that you should NEVER make it more profitable for a member to mine on their own. If it is more profitable for someone to mine solo, you will get poor turn out for mining ops and will slowly bleed active members. Note that fleet bonuses only start to generate "extra ore" out of thin air when you have 1 Orca + 3 Hulks. i.e. 1 Orca + 3 Hulks mine more ore than 4 hulks mining individually. Corp taxes should be taken from the difference between these two values. |
AstarothPrime
Eternal Profiteers Eternal Syndicate
5
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Posted - 2012.01.31 15:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
2 things:
#1) once a month - you announce corp mining day, set tax to 100% and everyone and their mother must gather in specific system and mine it all out.
You fly out your orca into a belt, and grab jetted cans and take them away...
All mats gathered go to corp...
#2) Other then that - you can charge "immediate money services" -> meaning you organize orca patronised mining and pay out 90% of jita value of stuff ppl mine on the spot as you pick up their cans... Your orca links will cover the difference anyways... and ppl dont need to dock / reprocess and sell stuff in jita. They fill a can - rename it "pick me up" and you cash them their dues... easy simple and win win...
Regards
I. |
Ireland VonVicious
Gurista Saints Assassin Confederacy
25
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Posted - 2012.02.01 05:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tax does not do anything for mining. |
Heimer
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.02.01 08:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:Tax does not do anything for mining.
During a CTM mining op, a 100% tax will take all bounties and mission rewards from people who 'don't get it'. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
662
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Posted - 2012.02.02 13:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
Taedrin wrote: Note that fleet bonuses only start to generate "extra ore" out of thin air when you have 1 Orca + 3 Hulks. i.e. 1 Orca + 3 Hulks mine more ore than 4 hulks mining individually. Corp taxes should be taken from the difference between these two values.
With the new T2 links and a maxed out Orca pilot, the boosts now total up to about +70% more ore per hour from the Hulk. Even the older T1 links pushed that up to around 50-55% boost. So the orca pilot paid for itself as soon as you had at least 2 Hulks in the fleet.
2 * 1.7 = 3.4 "effective mining ships 3 * 1.7 = 5.1 effective mining ships
The magic number has always been "2" for "when does the orca start to make sense?". And as soon as you have (3) hulks in the fleet, you can afford a 2nd orca to start hauling full time (or be very good about keeping dock time to a minimum). |
Jacob Lyon Chieve
Sanguis Mortem Industrial
1
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Posted - 2012.02.02 14:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
We're currently at 1 Orca and 3 Hulks, with 1 Orca in training (just started) and 2 more hulks in the pipeline.
Our plan is to run 2 belts in the same system, with 3 hulks and 1 orca each. The orca pilots will stagger their transport/station runs so there is always 1 orca active at any given time. It will be quite a while before either orca pilot is "maxed" but we're working toward it. And our hulk pilots are far from "perfect miners" so we're still producing sub-awesome numbers.
Like anything else: time and patience.
Also, we've had 2 corp-profit nights and have gotten our wallet to where we can float ISK weekly so we can pay for nightly ops and make full freighter runs to Jita to market the ore (until we can find a reliable weekly/frequent contract). |
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