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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.11.05 19:06:00 -
[1]
Ok guys...
One of our new Directors, McRuder, began a discussion in the Director's Forums called "What is EBANK?" It's a good question.
This is really open ended, and if I can't a good response I'll try and steer this conversation a bit but...
What do you want out of a Bank? When you think about an EVE Bank...what do imagine?
What would make you use a Bank, what would be worth logging in every day for?
Exports? Graphs? Integration with your own wallet?
Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.11.05 19:20:00 -
[2]
What I would like to see is way out of current game mechanics.
Personally, I would like to see what I have done in real life. 25% of my earned ISK to automatically go into my ebank account.
Of course, this couldn't be done, outside of joining the ebank corp, and having a corp tax (or making my own corp, having it set at that tax rate, and then manually depositing it).
Until then, I am hoping, in the near future, to put in some ISK that I don't need, to save for a rainy day when I need it.
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Superstar Tradesman
Caldari Pro-Trade Industries Inc
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Posted - 2007.11.05 19:35:00 -
[3]
I see EBANK as a way to deposit extra cash, that will make a bit through interest ready to be used another day. Also I'm not too great with money once I acquire it I tend to spend it quickly. So EBANK for me is also away to stop me spending all my money, by putting some away, I know I will always have it in reserve just in case.
I like the idea of integration with my own wallet, for example a certain amount of money I earn through trade, NPC'ing etc could go straight into my EBANK.
This is how I see EBANK, but tbh I don't really know much about these sorts of things, but this is how I see it. Yes I realise I have a man's name |
Weros Ibi
Caldari The Synove Leigon
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Posted - 2007.11.05 19:37:00 -
[4]
I like the idea of it being integrated with my wallet. (sort of an ATM) But I like the idea behind Ebank! I am a member and have deposited a relatively small amount in it since I am new to the Eve financial side of things. It would be nice to have a loan system or revolving credit type of thing as well.
Thanks for Ebank. I like it so far and can't wait to see it improved upon.
Weros Ibi
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Mahavy Seth
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.05 20:04:00 -
[5]
Hexxx....I keep trying to contact you ingame, but your never on when I am :(.
I recently sold my character Keelabich, and I need my account to be changed over to this guy please.
Contact me ingame if needed, I can provide you with my account info, password, etc if needed to show you its my account.
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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order. United Connection's
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Posted - 2007.11.05 20:19:00 -
[6]
Saving bank accounts are suppose to be very secure and have a modest interest rate that never tanks. Not sure how that applies to Eve though as there is no Government agency that insures your investment.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.11.05 22:08:00 -
[7]
Unforunetly CCP has stated already that integration of the API in order to do anything more than "read" information probably will never be done. Automated transfers from your wallet to EBANK will probably never be possible, considering CCP's stance on this.
I was thinking integration in that you could see your total assets (EBANK balance + in-game wallet balance + growth relative to your total assets + integrated virtual shares + insert your idea here) or something along those lines.
So...150+ views and only 5 replies.
Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
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Superstar Tradesman
Caldari Pro-Trade Industries Inc
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Posted - 2007.11.05 22:29:00 -
[8]
I understand what you mean about the CCP side of things and how that sort of integration is not possible, but I don't really think IMO being able to see your total assets etc (i.e. the integration you meant) really brings that much to EBANK.
As for my own ideas and suggestions, I'm still thinking on them :) |
Adrimar
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Posted - 2007.11.05 22:30:00 -
[9]
Mostly I use Ebank as a strategic reserve for those days when the fecal matter hits the rotary device. There is currently simply no other real function for ebank until you enable transfers between accounts.
I would not mind a kind of quick loan function, kind of like an overdraft of your account. Accounts would have to be vetted in advance and the amount itself would probably have to be small, interest agreed upon beforehand, etc. Or to have a kind of "pre-approved" loan that you can enable on accounts. There are times when I need a quick amount of isk for a short time and then waiting for Ricdic to actually be online can be an exercise in frustration.
Of course I would just love a "wallet tax" type of thing where once a days 5 or 10% of my daily earnings go into my ebank account, but as you already said, Hexxx, most of the things I would really like to see are simply not possible because CCP does not want them to be possible.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.11.05 23:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Adrimar Mostly I use Ebank as a strategic reserve for those days when the fecal matter hits the rotary device. There is currently simply no other real function for ebank until you enable transfers between accounts.
I would not mind a kind of quick loan function, kind of like an overdraft of your account. Accounts would have to be vetted in advance and the amount itself would probably have to be small, interest agreed upon beforehand, etc. Or to have a kind of "pre-approved" loan that you can enable on accounts. There are times when I need a quick amount of isk for a short time and then waiting for Ricdic to actually be online can be an exercise in frustration.
Of course I would just love a "wallet tax" type of thing where once a days 5 or 10% of my daily earnings go into my ebank account, but as you already said, Hexxx, most of the things I would really like to see are simply not possible because CCP does not want them to be possible.
I'm actually a bit surprised how often people mention the scheduled automated deposits into EBANK...is the anything EBANK could do in this regard? E-mail alerts? Reports on how much you "save"? Some kind of automated reports generated from your wallet export to help you determine how much to "set aside" each week?
Just trying to be a bit creative here. =)
Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.05 23:53:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hexxx What do you want out of a Bank?
What would make you use a Bank
Decent returns and the ability to place a lot of money in it. Don't care about other features.
Tanking Setups Compared
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.06 00:04:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shadarle the ability to place a lot of money in it.
Can you define a lot in a monetary term?
I ask as I have been tossing up over the option of having 1-5 large wallet people on standby for times when deposit cap has been reached and lucrative loans etc become available but cannot be capitalised on due to the lack of available funds. So basically just a CD but it would be limited to only a few people being able to fund them.
Just throwing this out, it isn't happening it's just something I am thinking of taking before the board. There are a few people who have expressed interest in this kind of thing
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.06 00:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ricdic
Originally by: Shadarle the ability to place a lot of money in it.
Can you define a lot in a monetary term?
I ask as I have been tossing up over the option of having 1-5 large wallet people on standby for times when deposit cap has been reached and lucrative loans etc become available but cannot be capitalised on due to the lack of available funds. So basically just a CD but it would be limited to only a few people being able to fund them.
Just throwing this out, it isn't happening it's just something I am thinking of taking before the board. There are a few people who have expressed interest in this kind of thing
I'd hope for a minimum of 5 billion, but the amount deposited would depend on the rate.
I don't really care if I have instant access to it even, though it would be nice. Promised access within a week with the attempt to have it sooner would be enough for me to invest a bit. Proof is that I have maxed the amount I can put into FuryBank already, but he is offering an excellent rate. If no new decent IPO's with good returns come out soon then a bank may be a good place to put the money.
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Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.11.06 00:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hexxx
What would make you use a Bank, what would be worth logging in every day for?
BSAC has a buy back policy and it ussually takes 48-72 hrs, or longer if I'm not around, for investors to cash their shares. I would like EBANK's teller been able to cash those shares and to bill me later.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.11.06 01:30:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Hexxx
What would make you use a Bank, what would be worth logging in every day for?
BSAC has a buy back policy and it ussually takes 48-72 hrs, or longer if I'm not around, for investors to cash their shares. I would like EBANK's teller been able to cash those shares and to bill me later.
sounds like a case for share virtualization...
Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
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John Newport
Caldari Newport Family Trust Fund
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Posted - 2007.11.06 11:09:00 -
[16]
What EBANK has to be?
Three things spring to mind immediatly. Trustworthy, Quality, Insitution. A trustworthy quality institution.
Every transaction, every dealings, every communication published has to "breathe" trust. Every action made by EBANK has to "show" quality. Every product or service has to benefit EBANK as an institution and marker to emphasise Trust and Quality.
Trust for my "ease of mind"? ... perhaps, but more because it can elemininate an issue of trust between two parties making a business deal by using EBANK as a trusted third party. With the added trust of a professional banker, certain bigger deals could be made in a more relaxing manner for both dealing parties.
I'll give an example, I place an order at a corporation for ISK 250.000.000 in certain items, but because of the large production order the deliveries are spread out and a payment schedule needs to be handled. One of such a transaction might not be a lot of work, but handling the financials of more of these transactions might be a lot of hassle for an entrepeneur.
Making a deposit at EBANK and authorizing EBANK to handle the payments of such contracts upon certain conditions out of this deposit and reporting back on this in a structured manner would be ideal. I will be sure that payments will be keeping handled when I go on that 3 week holiday planetside and he will be sure he gets his ISK in time.
Antoher example could be to act as an umbrella organisation for sharebrokers and work together with an existing stockexchange. A corporation could deposit shares at the bank and let the bank handle the financials of an IPO and ofcourse you could go as far as handling my shares and their payments.
Well, come to think of it, you can think up of a lot of fun things if you put efforts in having EBANK as a trustworthy umbrella for lots of different activities and products.
But in whatever fun direction you turn the wheel towards the future, to reach 'Institution-office' you have to drive by 'Trust-road' and 'Quality-avenue'.
John Newport
P.S.
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Apple Blossom
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Posted - 2007.11.06 12:02:00 -
[17]
Originally by: John Newport But in whatever fun direction you turn the wheel towards the future, to reach 'Institution-office' you have to drive by 'Trust-road' and 'Quality-avenue'.
Do you talk like this in real life?
Seriously though, this and Shadarle's point are the two key areas for me.
At the moment EBANK is a toy investment for me and (I'm guessing) most customers. 250M and the interest paid is so small that I wouldn't bother unless I was interested in the project for other reasons. Up the maximum deposit level to 5B or so and it would start being actually financially worthwhile for me.
But, (big but) with the 100 (?) or so customers you have currently , making that change turns the Bank from a toy to a very serious thing indeed (potentially a 500B isk thing). At that point John's advice about trust becomes very important. Part of that trust will have to come from game mechanics (wallet divisions, roles etc...) and part will have to be out of game (trusting people essentially) . I don't know what the best way to establish that trust will be, but it doesn't seem like you're doing too badly so far.
As far as other banking features are concerned, the only major one I can think of is the ability to use the bank to make payments to third parties out of game. So if I'm browsing the sell forums or RESX at work and see a BPO or tranche of shares I have to have right *now*, I could log into EBANK and instruct a teller to wire the money (in-game) straight from my account.
Apple
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente Brotherhood of Wolves
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Posted - 2007.11.06 12:19:00 -
[18]
I use EBANK as a savings account like I do IRL. The 250m interest-bearing deposit I have in there is a 'slush fund'. Basically cash that's still pretty liquid and not tied up in really fixed assets (ships) or slightly less fixed assets like stocks. A slush fund is there as an 'emergency near-to-instant access cash reserve'.
I generally don't keep a lot of cash in my wallet (IRL or in game), as I tend to spend it without thinking. So I just put money in other places, and find I don't spend it so often :)
Overdrafts or Small Unsecured Loans I have an idea that might be a workable overdraft facility for EBANK. But it requires a but of explaining, so bear with me :)
1) A 90-day Moving Average Balance (MAB) is calculated per depositor.
2) Because EBANK normally pays 3% of this balance as interest, then it can easily afford in the same framework to offer 3% of the 90-day MAB as a quick overdraft facility. So assuming a MAB of 250m, you get a 7.5m overdraft facility (this is not including the compounding ofc, to keep the figures simple)
3) Because it is a moving average, the longer you are overdrawn, the less you are able to borrow in subsequent overdraws and subsequent days (by a very small amount), which is calculated as the difference between the old MAB on day 1 and the new MAB on day 2. This will be the total minimum payment on the loan.
4) In addition, the overdraft's interest rate should be a defined rate (lets say 4x the basic interest rate, so 0.4% per day). But as you can't overdraw a savings account, this means you can only OD on the current account at a rate of 12% plus the minimum payment discussed above in point 3.
5) Last but not least, if you don't pay the overdraft, on your next EBANK deposit, ISK is instantly removed from your account. Failing that, you get Ricdic's bailiffs on your case.
While 7.5m isn't a lot of money, I believe it's fine for EBANK to manage this as an unsecured loan. This is basically somewhere in between a credit card and a checking account overdraft facility.
You can borrow more, but to get more you put up collateral :)
Other ideas:
Secured Loans 1) Ask for X and provide collateral 2) EBANK values collateral at Y. If Y >= x*(1.04^Num_Days), then loan is go. Interest rate is assumed to be 0.4% per day (or 4x base savings account rate). 3) Debtor is given ISK and has to pay 0.4% per day equivalent on an agreed basis.
Obviously the rate and repayment period is assumed and may be different.
Shares I fully expect to be able to buy EBANK shares at some point and it being floated so as to generate more capital to play with and more liquidity. Or even both! Sell shares as capital growth, whereby investors take on a share of the risk of the bank. This'd be a direct profit share.
Also sell shares as bonds, to underpin the liquidity of the bank, like a government bond. This is a dated bond that always matures on a 3-month Moving cycle, depending on EBANK's liquidity needs.
This would be what Shardarle and Ricdic are describing above.
Escrow By this I mean 'real world' escrow, much like Chribba's third party Carrier-buying service, whereby you have 2 parties who don't trust each other or are doing such a significant transaction you need someone to independently handle it. Like Carrier purchases / corporation buy-outs / Character purchases etc.
Needless to say EBANK earns a handsome 'fee' as commission on such transactions.
Also, it provides a perfect excuse to use EBANK's inter-account transfer service.
API Yes, so that other EVE-related sites can command EBANK via a WebServices interface (ie SOAP for you non-.NET people), to transfer ISK between EBANK accounts. Approved sites of course, like EGSE or RESX for example.
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente Brotherhood of Wolves
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Posted - 2007.11.06 12:30:00 -
[19]
What is EBANK?
EBANK has a split personality between being a central and a commercial bank... however it kind of wants to be both in a monolithic organisation . If I were to write a mission statement, it'd be on the lines of:
EBANK is a player-managed service run by a consortium of trusted people (the directors) within the market community for other players. EBANK provides impartial, honest and good value services that underpin the market community. It's unique characteristic is that it is self-governed by the directors who naturally compete against each other while at the same time support each other for the Greater Good of EVE's free market economy.
It's goals are to underpin trust and handle and add value to any economic transaction, financial instrument or structure within EVE that isn't handled in-game correctly or fully.
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Amior
Amarr Pringles Inc. STYX.
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Posted - 2007.11.06 12:49:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Amior on 06/11/2007 12:52:06 What I want out of EBank?... hmmm
1. Shares & Bonds from other corporation to be shown... so to only Purchase Shares it has to go through EBANK and its transfer to the Characters.
Also this would involved a cool plan I guess where you can set-up other peoples IPO which is their business plan that also shows a monthly/yearly graph of profit that share increase and etc.. so basically you know if you want to buy the shares or not.
So basically from top to bottom the layout will be...
A. Logo to IPO or ISSO B. GRAPH Side by Side Monthly (2 Pervious Month + Current Month) and Yearly (12 Months) C. Business Plan D. Shares Sold by IPO E. Shares Sold by Other Shareholders F. Shares you want to sell with how much & amount & player name (must have an active EBANK account)
2. Host Events for EBANK or Announce Events so EBANK users can get involved with the EBANK/EVE community. 3. Offer Contracts such as Ore/Mineral Contracts to Freighter Contracts to Merc. Contracts.
This will also shown as Trust Factor... list of corporations/players who paid on time... the work is completed... etc.. EXAMPLE: 0 (DO NOT DO BUSINESS) -> 1000 (EXCELLENT SERVICE!!! A+++)
Thats all I can think of atm...
Once you pop, you can't stop! - Pringles I R PIEWATE! Yarh haha! I eat noobs for breakfast |
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Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.11.06 12:54:00 -
[21]
i'm sorry, but as long as ebank has director level (and higher, i.e. shar and ricdic) that will post in neutral persons' threads, to ONLY attack me, and not contribute one iota to the thread (good or bad, just an attack at me); then, i think it should be working on it's trolls.
it's fine to derail one of my posts by posting nothing other than a flame. but, don't go ******* up someone's monthly statement or questions because your *insert word(s) for justification of babified actions here* overruled your ability to not be weak.
make a new thread, or use evemail, or hell, jump onto ts/vent/something. so yeah, as long as there's thin-skinned wannabe-trolls derailing other folks' threads to flame; that should be worked on. solid liquid |
Saint Luka
The Illuminati. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.06 13:14:00 -
[22]
One question, possibly very short-sighted but....
The need for bank's in real life is keeping your money safe, avoid having massive amounts of money in your house or on person therefore a deterant too theivery, also an easy alternative too paying off financial commitments.
In EVE there is no such problems and the latter can be paid by your own wallet, on person.
So why is this E-Bank needed? I understand you'll be giving out interest on certain account types which is a small incentive, however what about those without this incentive, why use your bank?
Also on the note of interest, not that i've read any of your documentation to date how are you funding this interest? using the capital from other money you have in your account? - What happens if everyone has a panic and withdrawls money sharply, will you be left with a massive shortfall?
Again, regardless of your reputation within EVE everyman has his price, whats too stop you running off with said money once you hit an amount that pleases you? -
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.06 13:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd i'm sorry, but as long as ebank has director level (and higher, i.e. shar and ricdic) etc etc
Well, now we are even?
It's ok, EBANK will survive without your custom. But thank you for your concerns.
Kind Regards.
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Saint Luka
The Illuminati. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.06 13:34:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ricdic
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd i'm sorry, but as long as ebank has director level (and higher, i.e. shar and ricdic) etc etc
Well, now we are even?
It's ok, EBANK will survive without your custom. But thank you for your concerns.
Kind Regards.
Also a seveer lack of proffesionalism and direct ego/flames on the forum isn't a good image for the people handling such large volume of money. -
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.06 13:47:00 -
[25]
Unfortunately Saint Luka you don't know Ezoran very well. If you respond to his accusations he is quick to turn it into war. Feel free to see his last 20 threads he has posted in. I simply ignored his query to avoid yet another episode similar to all the others.
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John Newport
Caldari Newport Family Trust Fund
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Posted - 2007.11.06 13:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Saint Luka One question, possibly very short-sighted but....
The need for bank's in real life is keeping your money safe, avoid having massive amounts of money in your house or on person therefore a deterant too theivery, also an easy alternative too paying off financial commitments.
In EVE there is no such problems and the latter can be paid by your own wallet, on person.
So why is this E-Bank needed? I understand you'll be giving out interest on certain account types which is a small incentive, however what about those without this incentive, why use your bank?
Also on the note of interest, not that i've read any of your documentation to date how are you funding this interest? using the capital from other money you have in your account? - What happens if everyone has a panic and withdrawls money sharply, will you be left with a massive shortfall?
Again, regardless of your reputation within EVE everyman has his price, whats too stop you running off with said money once you hit an amount that pleases you?
Your the point about your ISK being safe in your own wallet is a pretty valid one. It is therefore that I think that EBANK should focus and concentrate on developping quality products for customers, rather then plain ISK-gathering and handing it out again to investors getting a margin to pay interests back to the customers.
But in Hexxx starting this thread I'm sure he is quite aware of that.
It would be very interesting to see this develop, as this project is of such a huge scope it needs not to be overstretched, but still needs progress to succeed.
I don't know exactly who are handling the project, but mad props for those that are actually working on it.
John Newport
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.06 14:01:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Saint Luka So why is this E-Bank needed? I understand you'll be giving out interest on certain account types which is a small incentive, however what about those without this incentive, why use your bank?
If they aren't interested in the interest rates EBANK provides, or the ability to utilise it in many forms without needing to be in Eve (basically things that don't exist) then chances are they won't want to be customers of EBANK. We won't force it down people's throats. We don't 'need' to entice people to become customers, we simply offer a service and welcome anyone who chooses too, to use the service.
Quote: Also on the note of interest, not that i've read any of your documentation to date how are you funding this interest? using the capital from other money you have in your account?
Basically yes. We have all the information you could require here in the Terms and Conditions of course. But yes, we will utilise partial amounts of the deposits as well as retained earnings (960m last month) to inject more isk into the bank. As every month passes the EBANK's personal wallet grows and as such is able to provide a buffer for things like loan defaults and the likes.
Quote: What happens if everyone has a panic and withdrawls money sharply, will you be left with a massive shortfall?
Absolutely. I don't believe a single financial savings institution on the planet could deny this occurance. See they usually have a reserve fund available to help handle runs on the bank. The Net value of EBANK is always well above the amount of isk invested (at this point approximately 2.5b of funds comprises of director deposits and last month's profits) and this will continue to grow.
But, I won't deny it. If all customers do a mass withdrawal right now, then EBANK will come up short, having to liquidate assets and delay repayments to customers. See, if EBANK holds all customer isk as available funds at all time, and uses it's own capital to generate funds, then it's not a business, it's a charity. Every customer is a net loss. Reserve funds are things under consideration but at this point if you choose to become a customer, do so under the assumption that they are not available.
Quote: Again, regardless of your reputation within EVE everyman has his price, whats too stop you running off with said money once you hit an amount that pleases you?
Absolutely agreed. I have always expressed concern with people in control of too much money. Whilst I couldn't put a price on myself, I don't want to ever be in a position where I feel the need to do so. So in section 6 of the terms and conditions it explains how we (as a board) address the issue.
It is always something we have under consideration. Shar and I have been speaking of other ways to secure funds, in things like NPC traded items locked down in corporate hangars (directors have the shares), or buying up huge supplies in minerals of highly deflated prices and locking them down, allowing them as both liquid, potential long term cash cows, and securities all in one. We are definetly interested in hearing people's ideas regarding security at any time either here or via the EBANK forums.
Thanks for the questions. Most could be answered via our T&C's however they can be a little daunting due to their length.
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Saint Luka
The Illuminati. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.06 14:20:00 -
[28]
Ok, thanks for the prompt, proffesional and educated reply. -
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.11.06 14:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Saint Luka Again, regardless of your reputation within EVE everyman has his price
Well it is no secret, to many who know me for the past 5 or so years, that I strongly deny this statement. It is not that there are no people in Eve with ethics un-purchasable by isk... it is finding them. And you'll never find any as long as you either believe this statement to be true or you this statement is nothing more than an admission of your own ethical shortcomings. I've said it before, "Just because some of you rarely show the intestinal fortitude to keep your zipper at your belt buckle does not mean the rest of us are so made." As to customer service and professionalism, I save that for customers. You will not find a one that is anything less then thrilled (perhaps stunned if they bought forum hype) with the manner I handle my affairs... in game. Here, on the forums, there is a constant trolling that occurs that can not be weeded through as effectively as I can in game. So... out here, in this "other world" I operate under one guiding precept. 50% of those reading these words right now are of less than average IQ. PS: You may want to read that sentence again if you missed the joke. BTW if you did, you proved my point as well.
It's A GIRL!!!!! |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.11.06 14:53:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Stuff
Thank you for a fine example of FUD.
It's A GIRL!!!!! |
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