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Gin Sales
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Posted - 2007.11.07 00:25:00 -
[1]
Simple. An individual with relatively zero market experience, will attempt to create a new alt, invest 5 mil ISK, and turn a profit within 3 weeks.
I will not be training this character. They are currently parked in Jita.
I have until 1 Dec to make 20 million to obtain my goal.
I will attempt to keep an accurate record of progress, as well as insights into the market that I observe from my point of view.
Any tips or suggestions into the world of trading will be kept confidential, and not released to any other parties.
-Gin
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Gin Sales
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Posted - 2007.11.07 00:37:00 -
[2]
Day 1: (6 NOV 07) Character created, and placed in Jita.
Initial half hearted scans of the market, in search for an initial investment, showed this will be a very difficult endeavor. I am not particularly wanting to spend several hours trolling the market here, but it seems I have little or no choice if I wish to attain my goal.
I contemplated investing in a buy order of a single high priced object, or large quantities with a small price. I am attempting to go about this in a semi noob way, putting myself into the shoes of a starting player, as an additional handicap. I did not break out my calculator to determine percentages on theoretical returns today, but I imagine it will come to that shortly.
I opted to buy 4 mil worth of goods, via buy order, which had a very good turn around, around 40-50% if all goes well. Within the first 10 minutes, I had bought 4k of the total 100k I had on buy order, and someone had upped their buy order over mine. In the interest of self preservation, I opted to up my order over theirs, and attempted to sell my new items, undercutting the bare minimum to hopefully ensure quick sales.
My theory on this move is, I can sell my low amount quick enough for the undercut not to be an issue, thus prevent myself from being undercut. Buy orders will most likely work in the same fashion. These prices are easily raised or lowered, even when making a significant jump from the market norm. They are buying for 7.01, I buy for 7.10, they up to 7.11, etc. I think if I buy for 8.5, they will not chase me, and wait until my order is completed. However, experience with eve tells me lack of attention will just cause others to attempt to beat my price, thus raising the market 1.4 isk per item. This cuts into my own profit margin, and not something I am willing to do, the same goes with undercutting on sell orders.
Goal for tomorrow: Have tangible assets (not in escrow) back to 5 mil.
Goal for the week: Have all assets (including escrow) up to 7.5 mil.
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Redbad
Minmatar Mean Corp
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Posted - 2007.11.07 01:20:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Redbad on 07/11/2007 01:20:29
It is how I started Gin, before I was lured to the dark side. Really interested in seeing your progress.
Good luck and have fun.
RB
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.11.07 02:00:00 -
[4]
Three rules:
1. Diversify 2. Diversify 3. Diversify
Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.07 04:14:00 -
[5]
hehe yeh I done the exact same project a few weeks ago. It's amazing seeing how fast you can turn isk around. I used a 50m base though, which turned into about 89m in about 2 hours of playing in Jita.
It's quite fun to do regardless of age. Sure, it's only 5m but it's the idea behind it that's appealing.
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Gin Sales
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Posted - 2007.11.07 06:47:00 -
[6]
Day 2 (7 Nov 07)
Made a decision over night that putting all of my eggs in one basket was a bad idea, on many levels. I came back figuring I'd have bought more than I did, however. Sadly to say, I had bought a little over 6k in 20 hours, of an item that showed a lot of promise as far as trading volume went. I'm keeping some faith in it though, as my initial 4k turned around and sold in a matter of minutes of signing out for the night. So did my 6k this morning. A lot of buyers, not a lot of sellers. I could decrease my profit margin, but I think it would destabilize the market, and profit would be very small.
I researched a lot more today, to try and get a better feel of what I can turn around fast. I diversified my buy orders a little bit more, but still wasn't getting as much volume as I would like. I suppose if I'm going to do this for real, I need to be a lot more aggressive, and lower my expectations of what % I'll make in profit. I did notice, however, that there seems to be a cap on how high people will go before letting the other guy have it, as far as buy orders. I'm assuming most buy orders are from potential traders, with locked numbers in place for a long haul, and not casual buyers.
I busted out the calculator, and ran some numbers. It was nice to run some numbers other than compiling percentage points for weapons and speed boosts, and damage vs resists.
In short, I came no where near my goal of sitting back on top of my original 5 mil in the wallet.
Goal for tomorrow: Clear out all of my buy orders with successful buys
Thank you for the support, and boost of confidence. I still feel like I'm doing something wrong, but it is only my second day. I feel as if 5 mil is almost too small of a sum to start this with, but I'm sticking with it through this project. I'm determined, and I can do it!
-Gin
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Estate
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Posted - 2007.11.07 07:59:00 -
[7]
I started with 3m in Jita on March 1st, 2007. My wallet now has 11 digits. And I knew nothing when I started. You can do it. Keep up with the posts.
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.07 08:40:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste I started with 3m in Jita on March 1st, 2007. My wallet now has 11 digits. And I knew nothing when I started. You can do it. Keep up with the posts.
Man I started 4 years ago and my wallet is barely more than the OP. What am I doing wrong!
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Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2007.11.07 09:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ricdic
Man I started 4 years ago and my wallet is barely more than the OP. What am I doing wrong!
Re-investing absolutly everything?
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.07 11:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sphynx Stormlord
Originally by: Ricdic
Man I started 4 years ago and my wallet is barely more than the OP. What am I doing wrong!
Re-investing absolutly everything?
Aha that must be it. Well the first 3 years were isk blown on Gist Ravens and 0.0 blob ganks, but the last year is all reinvestment.
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Oleksiy1
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Posted - 2007.11.07 11:30:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Oleksiy1 on 07/11/2007 11:30:38 i started on the 10th of May 2007 with 70 mln. Now i have got 11-digit bank account and and it doesn't start with 1:)
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Investigador
Caldari Hator inc The Omni Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.07 11:33:00 -
[12]
I only got from a starting capital of 100mill to a end capital 300mill, and on 2 months, because I hadn't enough RL time to log in update the market orders :(
I still haven't got the time, so those 300mill are still stuck on my alt's wallet :P
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LaVista Vista
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.07 11:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste I started with 3m in Jita on March 1st, 2007. My wallet now has 11 digits. And I knew nothing when I started. You can do it. Keep up with the posts.
Is those 11 digit including the last 2? As in 10,000,000,000(11) or 100,000,000.00(11)? :)
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Oleksiy1
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Posted - 2007.11.07 15:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste I started with 3m in Jita on March 1st, 2007. My wallet now has 11 digits. And I knew nothing when I started. You can do it. Keep up with the posts.
Is those 11 digit including the last 2? As in 10,000,000,000(11) or 100,000,000.00(11)? :)
ain't funny
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.07 16:36:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Oleksiy1 Edited by: Oleksiy1 on 07/11/2007 11:30:38 i started on the 10th of May 2007 with 70 mln. Now i have got 11-digit bank account and and it doesn't start with 1:)
And
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
MindBender
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.08 03:15:00 -
[16]
Good read bud. I myself did small operation with a few friends. We dropped about 100mil apiece and had a starting capital of 300mil. We played the market, manufactures and sold what we made in 0.0 space and we came back with over a Bil, not including small expendetures along the way on ourselves. While we didn't work extremly hard and were very casual about it, we did it in 0.0.
Now I'm in Evol though and broke, it was a very fun expendeture. Though I have a small project I'm thinking about trying in the future with a nice little alt of mine, but we'll see... it's an idea at the moment. Best of luck and don't give up.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.11.08 04:19:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Dr Slurm on 08/11/2007 04:19:37 First off, good job. This is a very honest start to being a trader. My previous advice to people wanting to do this has been to train the social skills that increase standing and run level 2 missions until you have collected 50-100m ISK. This is a much better level to jump start from and it also gives you an idea of the market you are getting into.
Since you probably won't do that, I would suggest just investing slightly larger amounts of time managing your orders in the beginning. I relate this to working a soap into a lather. Occasionally stirring the soap will not generate a lather, but stirring fast and repeatedly will create a lather. This is how I see working your money. In this business it takes money to make money.
It's better then Quafe! |
tornpain
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Posted - 2007.11.08 04:21:00 -
[18]
Edited by: tornpain on 08/11/2007 04:21:46
Originally by: Dr Slurm My previous advice to people wanting to do this has been to train the social skills that increase standing and run level 2 missions until you have collected 50-100m ISK. 6.67 effective standing.
fixed your post. hope the OP can read between the lines ^_^
Jeeze, I can't imagine running level 2s for 50-100mil isk...that's insanity.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.11.08 04:43:00 -
[19]
Originally by: tornpain Edited by: tornpain on 08/11/2007 04:21:46
Originally by: Dr Slurm My previous advice to people wanting to do this has been to train the social skills that increase standing and run level 2 missions until you have collected 50-100m ISK. 6.67 effective standing.
fixed your post. hope the OP can read between the lines ^_^
Jeeze, I can't imagine running level 2s for 50-100mil isk...that's insanity.
Its really not that hard with a cruiser. Hell if you can do L3's go for it, but they will take longer to clear and thus less money for time invested. I'm not saying standings are bad for other reasons. They can take the quite a bit of the edge off broker fees but its really not that much of a difference. The difference between 5m and 50m in trading terms is a lot more. In the end depending on the skill of the player and luck either method could be faster to get to 50-100m ISK. Which is when the real fun trading starts.
It's better then Quafe! |
Prime Ori
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Posted - 2007.11.08 09:24:00 -
[20]
You might wanna resell some low quantity skill book in Jita... rich people are lazy and will pay at least 100k extra for a skillbook in Jita when they are there.
And if you join the 0.01 war, try alot of items, and with only 5 mil, start with alot of cheap ones so you can find a niche. You can also try putting 2 buy orders on a 2.5 mil item, focus on that one and sell it (watch for large gaps) which will make you more isk but can be risky because nobody might sell it to ya for so little.
Tbh, making 20 mil out of 5 in somany days is quite easy, reset your goal to at least 100 mil :)
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Hanoi Hana
Mitsubishi Group
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Posted - 2007.11.08 12:48:00 -
[21]
Where are the updates? :)
First, come to Jita and dock at the 4-4 Caldari Navy station, commonly known as Jita 4-4. Put up a buy order on Expanded Cargohold IIs that is exactly 0.01 isk higher than the top order (sort by price from high to low), then as soon as they start coming in put up a sell order on the modules for exactly 0.01 isk lower than the top order (sort from low to high). These modules sell quickly and you will turn a ~12% profit in minutes.
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Oleksiy1
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Posted - 2007.11.08 15:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Oleksiy1 Edited by: Oleksiy1 on 07/11/2007 11:30:38 i started on the 10th of May 2007 with 70 mln. Now i have got 11-digit bank account and and it doesn't start with 1:)
And
and nothing I just have stated my result, which i like BTW what about u? u have postioned yourself as a market whiz kid, but u never say any figure and i have never seen u on the market. do u trade incognito? or maybe u a kind of "theoretic" guy, who will never become practic.
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Ione Hunt
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.11.08 16:35:00 -
[23]
Good project, nice of you to share your experiences with some of the newer traders. I'm sure there's plenty who can learn from your mistakes (and success). Good luck! _______________
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Estate
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Posted - 2007.11.09 07:38:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Oleksiy1
u have postioned yourself as a market whiz kid, but u never say any figure and i have never seen u on the market. do u trade incognito? or maybe u a kind of "theoretic" guy, who will never become practic.
This isn't a ****ing contest and I didn't mean to turn it into such. I think most people here got that. I'm just trying to encourage this new kid because I like what I see. Obviously people have done both far better and far worse than I have. So whatever.
Anyway, more posts please OP, we want more =D
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Gin Sales
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Posted - 2007.11.21 00:13:00 -
[25]
Sorry about the delay in posting, and the above posts were more interesting views into the world of trading, even if they were somewhat depressing as my results have been very poor, albeit I've been unable to put much time into it lately.
I came back after 2 days of my last post, and virtually everything had sold, so I now had roughly 300k more than I had started. It was at this point that I started to become disheartened with my possibility of success. 20 mil still seems lightyears away.
I tried to diversify a little bit more, and reinvested into my hopefully niche market, and quickly learned that daily volume on the market bar can be very misleading. Even though I had the highest buy order for over 24 hours on a certain item, I only got a few hundred of the 10k I had on order. Other items in the same catergory were bought very quickly however, and I eventually canceled the buy orders on the slow moving items.
I invested a large chunk into a T2 item that has always been a favourite of mine, and found yet again another slow mover. With some competition on buy orders for this item, I was quickly run out of the war, as the other entrepenuer eliminated the profit margin.
I have so far dabbled in ore, misc ammo, weapons, and T2 modules. I am still searching for something with a fast turnaround with a noticable profit margin. Even researching higher priced items (50-100mil range) I did not notice a remarkable increase in profit, as the ratio was about the same.
Other than advice to diversify, I am feeling like I am missing a crucial step in the profit process. Lack of user friendly filters in the market add to the frustration. (when I click for range, or prices, neither scale on top of each other, so I will have to look at every single order in said station to find a lowest price. Albeit slightly trivial to the point, still frustrating from a traders or casual shoppers point of view) I have searched contracts for good deals, and usually find them as competitive as the regular market, with very little price deviation, and what deviation there is, is usually on ultra low volume items that don't seem to sell at any price.
While I know some are reading this and wondering how I am not successful yet, I know there are others reading this and feeling my pain. I now have 9 days to reach my goal, and at this point I am struggling to keep my numbers in the black.
I hope to be able to get back to you all in a few days with another update, but reality has struck yet another blow into any percievable time off that I might have previously had. See you soon.
-Gin
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Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
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Posted - 2007.11.21 00:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Gin Sales I am still searching for something with a fast turnaround with a noticable profit margin.
These items exist and you will find them. When you do, don't tell anyone about it :) Also be careful with large quantity sell orders - they have an interesting effect on your local market and I've found it can be better to actually place multiple smaller orders. Maybe I'm imagining it.
The market is very dynamic at the moment though with speculation from the upcoming patches. Keep diversifying, and remember to include the value of your own time in your transactions.
Keep it up!
Eve Web Design | PerthChat | Learning to Trade
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Gin Sales
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Posted - 2007.11.21 08:57:00 -
[27]
I was able to check back in on the project today, and saw my buy orders for a T2 module were successful. Due to a lack of foresight or research, the market shifted wildly from my buy prices, and thus my profit would be null with those items if sold today. I am holding on for a day or two hoping that prices will rise again, and if so, will then unload. If not, I will unload and reinvest in hopefully a better product.
Another lesson in the volatile state of the market.
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Daerkannon Shimmerscale
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Astorothe These items exist and you will find them. When you do, don't tell anyone about it :) Also be careful with large quantity sell orders - they have an interesting effect on your local market and I've found it can be better to actually place multiple smaller orders. Maybe I'm imagining it.
You aren't imagining it, I see it all the time (especially in Jita). I can move huge quantities of items using small orders (over a few days) without dropping the average selling price appreciably, but if I drop a large number of items on the market all at once it starts a panic, which is followed by a bidding war and (often) the price crashing. --- Honest officer, the dwarf was on fire when I got here! Can't find a mechanical engineering agent? Need a non-Caldari Navy agent? http://www.eve-agents.com/ for all your agent needs! |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.11.21 22:57:00 -
[29]
Very good read. I look forward to further updates.
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Slasher Arcana
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Posted - 2007.11.22 02:55:00 -
[30]
Hi Gin Sales (related to Gin Moon?)!
Just thought I'd share my own personal experience being a trader alt for only less than a month.
Like you I had zero EVE market experience but have about 5 months' EVE playing experience. I created an alt and seeded it with ISK from my main to dabble in trade.
Ever heard of the Rule of 72? It's a "magic" rule of doubling (or halving) your investment in 72 units of time (min/hour/day/year) given a FIXED rate of return. If interested do read it up.
Anyway after dabbling in the market for a month or so, I learnt a few things:
It helps to know the EVE game. From playing the game abit you can see opportunities (ie what players are selling and buying) in hisec, losec and nulsec. Personally after doing L4 Caldari missions I could see that certain modules are in high demand. This becomes very important especially considering the point below.
It helps if you are willing to haul goods to buy LOW at 1 place and sell HIGH at another. As an addendum to the above point, it's a fact that many players are willing to pay EXTRA to avoid travelling to market hubs. This is very true for mission hubs. Here's a tip, Eve-Agents.com is your friend. Therefore buying low at trading hubs and selling high at mission hubs will improve ur profit margin by ALOT. This is also true at hi-losec, lo-nulsec and hi-nulsec gateways/chokepoints.
It helps to train a few skills. Getting the right build is helpful for trader alts. The Amarr Ni-Kunni Entrepreneur is probably the best build, with 19 Char and lots of useful trading skills. But even then training a few skills will be worth it even if u take time off from training ur main. Training skills like Accounting will help improve ur profit margin. I currently have 0.8% for sales and broker taxes. When your orders get bigger those taxes will start to hurt.
Don't sell in Jita unless u have to Jita is so competitive the prices move very fast and the sell/buy prices are very very close. Therefore your profit margin is really small if at all if u add in taxes. You can use the competitive Jita prices to your advantage though, by quickly buying from Jita off Sell Orders to resell elsewhere.
Be willing to wait As a trader patience is the key. Nuff said.
Reinvest If you don't need the ISK, keep reinvesting. Idle ISK is profit lost.
Diversity, but also strike while the iron's hot Diversification will help you avoid losses if the prices crash or demand changes, but also try to watch the market. If something becomes hot all of a sudden (usually due to patch changes), strike! But learning when to get in and OUT is an acquired skill.
Just my meagre inputs from my own experience... nothing compared to the vet traders here but thought I'd share the stuff I learn these few weeks.
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