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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.09 04:30:00 -
[61]
Originally by: tornpain Obviously you pick an item with less volume. Do I have to do all the work for this for you and your alt?
LOL at the idea that FL is the alt of the OP.
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tornpain
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Posted - 2007.11.09 04:34:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: tornpain Obviously you pick an item with less volume. Do I have to do all the work for this for you and your alt?
WTS: clues, by the cartload. Complementary cluebats and cluehammers included. The mineral market is NOT like "any other market". "Insights" you gather over price manipulation in any other markets DO NOT apply verbatim to the mineral market.
Here's a clue for you: focusing on a pair of minerals might indeed involve less than 300 billion in volume. Or even a different hub, zomgs~!
In the future please feel free to convo me with similar brilliant additions to the discussion so that I may berate you more directly and appropriately -- I've added you to my address book so you may do so without CSPA charge.
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Ricdic's Hoe
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Posted - 2007.11.09 04:46:00 -
[63]
I <3 this thread
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.09 05:00:00 -
[64]
Originally by: tornpain
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: tornpain Obviously you pick an item with less volume. Do I have to do all the work for this for you and your alt?
WTS: clues, by the cartload. Complementary cluebats and cluehammers included. The mineral market is NOT like "any other market". "Insights" you gather over price manipulation in any other markets DO NOT apply verbatim to the mineral market.
Here's a clue for you: focusing on a pair of minerals might indeed involve less than 300 billion in volume. Or even a different hub, zomgs~!
In the future please feel free to convo me with similar brilliant additions to the discussion so that I may berate you more directly and appropriately -- I've added you to my address book so you may do so without CSPA charge.
How interesting that another person equally annoying has the same first letter in his name. I'm curious, have you had problems with dancing staplers?
Tanking Setups Compared
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tornpain
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Posted - 2007.11.09 05:05:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Shadarle I'm curious, have you had problems with dancing staplers?
What sort of epicurean delight lies buried in this subject? I might have to charge you isk for continuing this line of discussion.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.09 05:12:00 -
[66]
Originally by: tornpain
Originally by: Shadarle I'm curious, have you had problems with dancing staplers?
What sort of epicurean delight lies buried in this subject? I might have to charge you isk for continuing this line of discussion.
Do you honestly think you sound enlightened or intelligent using words like epicurean? I'm as much a fan of hedonistic delights as the next guy, more so perhaps, but I fail to see the point in bringing it up on these forums, thus I plan never to mention it.
Tanking Setups Compared
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Ricdic's Hoe
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Posted - 2007.11.09 05:21:00 -
[67]
Pfft. Well I can spell Internationel!
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.11.09 07:06:00 -
[68]
Originally by: tornpain Here's a clue for you: focusing on a pair of minerals might indeed involve less than 300 billion in volume. Or even a different hub, zomgs~!
Since we're trading clues here, how's about the value of a SINGLE mineral in a SINGLE day in a SINGLE hub ? Would it surprise you at all to find out that, oh, we're talking anywhere from 5 to 40 BILLION ISK per day per mineral per ANY major hub ? Oh, I'm sorry, did that somehow screw up your math ? "oops..."
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New character creation guide | [CNVTF] corp recruiting | Stacknerfs explained |
tornpain
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Posted - 2007.11.09 13:41:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: tornpain Here's a clue for you: focusing on a pair of minerals might indeed involve less than 300 billion in volume. Or even a different hub, zomgs~!
Since we're trading clues here, how's about the value of a SINGLE mineral in a SINGLE day in a SINGLE hub ? Would it surprise you at all to find out that, oh, we're talking anywhere from 5 to 40 BILLION ISK per day per mineral per ANY major hub ? Oh, I'm sorry, did that somehow screw up your math ? "oops..."
You're wrong. You pulled that 5-40 billion number out of thin air.
I've personally pushed the bid/ask spread on pyerite to 37% in Rens with less than 5 billion, and done about 30million units of volume before the bid crept back up.
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Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.11.09 13:48:00 -
[70]
Originally by: tornpain
You're wrong. You pulled that 5-40 billion number out of thin air.
No, Akita is not. That information is available if you know were to look.
Originally by: tornpain I've personally pushed the bid/ask spread on pyerite to 37% in Rens with less than 5 billion, and done about 30million units of volume before the bid crept back up.
IĈm not interested in pushing one mineral spread for a few days. My goal is to manipulate and control the mineral market.
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tornpain
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Posted - 2007.11.09 16:01:00 -
[71]
Lonetrek only did 3.5B, 5.3B, and 2.8B in tritanium the previous three days. Region-wide. How's that translate to 5-40 billion in a single system?
Your numbers are completely fictitious.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.09 16:21:00 -
[72]
Originally by: tornpain Lonetrek only did 3.5B, 5.3B, and 2.8B in tritanium the previous three days. Region-wide. How's that translate to 5-40 billion in a single system?
Your numbers are completely fictitious.
Because as soon as you start to manipulate the price, buying out all orders below a certain point, other people will start hauling in greater quantities of that mineral. The amount sold for that day will be far greater than a "normal" day.
You should know this as you claim to have done it yourself, which I somehow doubt. People who have actually done this know that you have to at least double the normal traded quantity of a mineral per day if you want to manipulate the market very well. I personally would want 10 times the regularly traded amount at minimum, so I could sustain the manipulation a little longer if I had to.
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tornpain
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Posted - 2007.11.09 16:48:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Shadarle buying out all orders below a certain point
This is pretty much the dumbest way to get your start in market manipulation.
I flooded enough pyerite to clear the buy orders down to my target level, put up my own buy order, and undercut the lowest sells for a 37% spread. I get my minerals somewhere between the highest buy order and my target level. It really works best when there's a thin level of demand, as I noticed has been the case during the week in Rens lately. I could have kept going but I ran out of cheap pyerite to dump into the buy orders and I spent my freighter money on poker.
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Kilda Shepp
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.11.09 18:29:00 -
[74]
Originally by: tornpain
Originally by: Shadarle buying out all orders below a certain point
This is pretty much the dumbest way to get your start in market manipulation.
I flooded enough pyerite to clear the buy orders down to my target level, put up my own buy order, and undercut the lowest sells for a 37% spread. I get my minerals somewhere between the highest buy order and my target level. It really works best when there's a thin level of demand, as I noticed has been the case during the week in Rens lately. I could have kept going but I ran out of cheap pyerite to dump into the buy orders and I spent my freighter money on poker.
You need to come back when you've spent more then 5 minutes looking at the Market screen. Filling buy orders doesn't lower the sell orders price, all it does is give a larger spread. A spread in which will be filled by sell orders. You're manipulating the wrong side.
If you place a cheap sell order others will most likely undercut you by 0.01 isk. You can't manipulate people who HAVE the product already. It's much easier to manipulate the people who have the ISK but not the product.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.09 18:34:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Kilda Shepp
Originally by: tornpain
Originally by: Shadarle buying out all orders below a certain point
This is pretty much the dumbest way to get your start in market manipulation.
I flooded enough pyerite to clear the buy orders down to my target level, put up my own buy order, and undercut the lowest sells for a 37% spread. I get my minerals somewhere between the highest buy order and my target level. It really works best when there's a thin level of demand, as I noticed has been the case during the week in Rens lately. I could have kept going but I ran out of cheap pyerite to dump into the buy orders and I spent my freighter money on poker.
You need to come back when you've spent more then 5 minutes looking at the Market screen. Filling buy orders doesn't lower the sell orders price, all it does is give a larger spread. A spread in which will be filled by sell orders. You're manipulating the wrong side.
If you place a cheap sell order others will most likely undercut you by 0.01 isk. You can't manipulate people who HAVE the product already. It's much easier to manipulate the people who have the ISK but not the product.
Not to mention that if he actually knew how to manipulate a market effectively he wouldn't be so short on money he couldn't afford a freighter.
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Pang Grohl
Gallente Sudo Corp
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Posted - 2007.11.09 19:12:00 -
[76]
Originally by: tornpain
Originally by: Shadarle buying out all orders below a certain point
This is pretty much the dumbest way to get your start in market manipulation.
I flooded enough pyerite to clear the buy orders down to my target level, put up my own buy order, and undercut the lowest sells for a 37% spread. I get my minerals somewhere between the highest buy order and my target level. It really works best when there's a thin level of demand, as I noticed has been the case during the week in Rens lately. I could have kept going but I ran out of cheap pyerite to dump into the buy orders and I spent my freighter money on poker.
Hmmm... so you lowered the bid price and the ask price by supplementing existing supply and replacing existing demand in an already oversupplied market. Good on you for making money at it, but that's not a trend you want to sustain for long term growth. If you paid attention to the OP you'd see that the goal is not just short term gains, but long term equity growth as well.
In your scenario you're decreasing the value of the market which will disinterest suppliers and speculators. If you're a supplier making this manipulation, this is a good thing in the long run. If you're a speculator making this manipulation, it's a bad thing in the long run. You need other speculators and a steady supply to drive market prices up in an efficient and cost effective manner. Otherwise your stuck investing a lot of effort and cash in pushing and pulling the market. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) Improve Share Transfers |
tornpain
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Posted - 2007.11.09 20:54:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Kilda Shepp You need to come back when you've spent more then 5 minutes looking at the Market screen. Filling buy orders doesn't lower the sell orders price, all it does is give a larger spread. A spread in which will be filled by sell orders. You're manipulating the wrong side.
If you place a cheap sell order others will most likely undercut you by 0.01 isk. You can't manipulate people who HAVE the product already. It's much easier to manipulate the people who have the ISK but not the product.
You need to come back when you understand what I did. I don't care what the sell orders are, I'm taking pyerite bought at 37% below the lowest sell order and reselling it.
Originally by: Pang Grohl Hmmm... so you lowered the bid price and the ask price by supplementing existing supply and replacing existing demand in an already oversupplied market. Good on you for making money at it, but that's not a trend you want to sustain for long term growth. If you paid attention to the OP you'd see that the goal is not just short term gains, but long term equity growth as well.
In your scenario you're decreasing the value of the market which will disinterest suppliers and speculators. If you're a supplier making this manipulation, this is a good thing in the long run. If you're a speculator making this manipulation, it's a bad thing in the long run. You need other speculators and a steady supply to drive market prices up in an efficient and cost effective manner. Otherwise your stuck investing a lot of effort and cash in pushing and pulling the market.
I like having markets to myself What makes a supplier in your opinion though? Anyone who can get the product in question outside of a buy order? That's pretty trivial for minerals as one might imagine...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.11.10 01:14:00 -
[78]
Ok, let's tone the insults down a bit and reasoning up a notch.
First off, not everything scales well, and not everything that does scales linearly. So, no, starting smaller scale won't help you much in determining how things will evolve on a larger scale.
Granted, in manipulating the market, buying off all sell orders and "holding on" to it is not always the best option. This is only the best option is supply is relatively scarce, and you have enough ISK to buy off most of the supply for days at an end.
But on the other hand, so is creating an artificial spread by dumping your goods on the buy orders. For that to work, those that do set up buy orders normally need to watch their orders only rarely, or else the spread shrinks again soon.
Bottom line is, your "touch" needs to be gentle but steady, and over a longer period of time, if you wish for serious profits out of speculations like the OP describes.
_
New character creation guide | [CNVTF] corp recruiting | Stacknerfs explained |
Galgorth
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Posted - 2007.11.11 01:40:00 -
[79]
How would FIX being kicked out of 0.0 space impact this plan of yours?
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Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.11.11 12:37:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Galgorth How would FIX being kicked out of 0.0 space impact this plan of yours?
None at all. This venture will be carry out in empire and run by alts.
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Pang Grohl
Gallente Sudo Corp
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Posted - 2007.11.12 06:55:00 -
[81]
Originally by: tornpain
Originally by: Pang Grohl Hmmm... so you lowered the bid price and the ask price by supplementing existing supply and replacing existing demand in an already oversupplied market. Good on you for making money at it, but that's not a trend you want to sustain for long term growth. If you paid attention to the OP you'd see that the goal is not just short term gains, but long term equity growth as well.
In your scenario you're decreasing the value of the market which will disinterest suppliers and speculators. If you're a supplier making this manipulation, this is a good thing in the long run. If you're a speculator making this manipulation, it's a bad thing in the long run. You need other speculators and a steady supply to drive market prices up in an efficient and cost effective manner. Otherwise your stuck investing a lot of effort and cash in pushing and pulling the market.
I like having markets to myself What makes a supplier in your opinion though? Anyone who can get the product in question outside of a buy order? That's pretty trivial for minerals as one might imagine...
A supplier is the person introducing new product to the market, in EVE terms, miners, re-processors, importers, manufacturers, and NPCs. The fact that it's trivial to source minerals is part of the reason there's over supply in so many places. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) Improve Share Transfers |
Hanoi Hana
Mitsubishi Group
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Posted - 2007.11.14 01:56:00 -
[82]
Am I to understand that you have essentially made the decision that you will be rolling out an IPO for this? I was under the impression that this idea was lukewarmly received, due to your general theory on how this will work, the massive funds needed to be raised, the necessity of a long-term manipulation, and the very small profits, estimated at not likely less than 3% and hoping for 5-6%.
Maybe I've been looking at this thread through the wrong sunglasses, but I'm not fully confident that this business venture is more worthwhile than many others.
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Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.11.14 12:23:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Hanoi Hana Am I to understand that you have essentially made the decision that you will be rolling out an IPO for this?
Yes, I made the decision to do a public offering. I have a prospectus ready for it.
I am working on a document outlining MinMaĞ Trustee rules and regulations and creating some incentives for large investors.
I am currently looking for Underwriters.
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tornpain
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Posted - 2007.11.14 16:06:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Hanoi Hana Maybe I've been looking at this thread through the wrong sunglasses, but I'm not fully confident that this business venture is more worthwhile than many others.
I say this about every public EVE IPO I've ever read. I'm not sure this argument holds much water; obviously many people are interested in any sort of return involving none of their own time and effort.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.14 21:29:00 -
[85]
Originally by: tornpain
Originally by: Hanoi Hana Maybe I've been looking at this thread through the wrong sunglasses, but I'm not fully confident that this business venture is more worthwhile than many others.
I say this about every public EVE IPO I've ever read. I'm not sure this argument holds much water; obviously many people are interested in any sort of return involving none of their own time and effort.
But I also happen to know you do not have all that much money personally, so you don't really fall into the category of someone who has to find uses for large chunks of money that would otherwise sit idle.
I also wondered why this moved in the IPO stage already when it really didn't seem to be getting luke-warm support at best. I don't quite know who will be investing in this. But perhaps there are enough people who will settle for 3-6% expected returns (in a fairly risky venture) to launch this. I'll see what the final draft of the IPO says to see if there is any reason a large investor would want to buy into it.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.11.14 22:06:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Shadarle
I also wondered why this moved in the IPO stage already when it really didn't seem to be getting luke-warm support at best. I don't quite know who will be investing in this. But perhaps there are enough people who will settle for 3-6% expected returns (in a fairly risky venture) to launch this. I'll see what the final draft of the IPO says to see if there is any reason a large investor would want to buy into it.
you agreed earlier that most people will invest in a known name for 5% or less
its a fact that there are not enough ipos to invest in compared to the investors lately ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.14 23:49:00 -
[87]
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: Shadarle
I also wondered why this moved in the IPO stage already when it really didn't seem to be getting luke-warm support at best. I don't quite know who will be investing in this. But perhaps there are enough people who will settle for 3-6% expected returns (in a fairly risky venture) to launch this. I'll see what the final draft of the IPO says to see if there is any reason a large investor would want to buy into it.
you agreed earlier that most people will invest in a known name for 5% or less
its a fact that there are not enough ipos to invest in compared to the investors lately
Sure, if it is ISSO obviously there are some people willing to get 5%. Ionia, Ricdic, DS, PP, and tons of others could easily get a fair bit of investors at 5% I'm sure. I didn't say anyone who posts on these forums could get 5%. Plus this isn't even guaranteed 5%. It is a guess of 3-6%... but there is even a chance you'll lose a ton. So this is nothing close to what I've ever referred to in the past.
I've already said there is a chance he will get enough investors to move forward. I will never discount that there is a chance people will invest in a new venture that seems "cool". I just doubt any massive investors will chip in and I know I am very unlikely to.
I would have been far more interested if it was done by allowing large investors to buy their own minerals based on directions from Block. But that is not how it is going to be done.
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tornpain
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Posted - 2007.11.15 00:50:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Shadarle I would have been far more interested if it was done by allowing large investors to buy their own minerals based on directions from Block. But that is not how it is going to be done.
What price would you be willing to pay Block for this service?
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.15 02:53:00 -
[89]
Originally by: tornpain
Originally by: Shadarle I would have been far more interested if it was done by allowing large investors to buy their own minerals based on directions from Block. But that is not how it is going to be done.
What price would you be willing to pay Block for this service?
I have no clue. Honestly it doesn't seem like he is in it for the money, he seems to want to try to impact the entire market with his actions. But it would be beneficial for all parties to do so. It's a pointless discussion atm though as this is not the direction things are going.
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