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NoobALTS
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Posted - 2007.11.16 11:32:00 -
[61]
Edited by: NoobALTS on 16/11/2007 11:34:36 For goodness sake.
Everything in eve belongs to CCP. Therefore it is impossible for any court case for people scamming/stealing etc etc. Your subs pay only the entry fee. Any concept of ownership is not real, as CCP own every item in this game as per ELUA
Computer Fraud such as stealing usernames/passwords etc can be charged in court. Image you play a game of poker and convert cash into poker credits. Someone hacks your account and steals your credits. You can take the theif to court because he commited computer fraud against you. Same thing as if someone hacks your bank account.
HOWEVER, If you are as rich as Michael Jackson, and can hire a army of the words top lawers and bribe the Judge, Jury and press, you can convict anyone in court on some form of technicality. However this is not a realistic scenario for the purpose of this thread.
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R3aliti
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Posted - 2007.11.16 11:41:00 -
[62]
Not This - THAT
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Lazuran
Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2007.11.16 11:48:00 -
[63]
Originally by: NoobALTS Edited by: NoobALTS on 16/11/2007 11:34:36 For goodness sake.
Everything in eve belongs to CCP. Therefore it is impossible for any court case for people scamming/stealing etc etc. Your subs pay only the entry fee. Any concept of ownership is not real, as CCP own every item in this game as per ELUA
It has been said over and over again ... The EULA has a limited scope and most EULAs contain invalid clauses (invalid in some/all countries).
CCP already has one foot in the door to RMT with their GTC => ISK conversion. RMT cannot be facilitated effectively with a "everything belongs to CCP" rule.
It's not an immediate danger to EVE in its current state, but wait and see. CCP will most certainly go further down the path of RMT and thus closer to the lurking danger of litigation for ingame "crimes".
"...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007) |
Semkhet
KR0M The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.11.16 12:18:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Semkhet on 16/11/2007 12:22:19
Originally by: NoobALTS
HOWEVER, If you are as rich as Michael Jackson, and can hire a army of the words top lawers and bribe the Judge, Jury and press, you can convict anyone in court on some form of technicality. However this is not a realistic scenario for the purpose of this thread.
Not always. Many years ago, political events projected the family of one of my wife's friends among the leading echelons of their country (outside europe). So we thought to go there and look for juicy opportunities. We swiftly got introduced to the prominent locals. One particular reception in a beautiful property draw my attention because it was offered by a young judge. When I naively asked how was it possible for a young civil servant to become wealthy (I had already taken some infos and knew the guy wasn't coming from a fortunate family), I learned that it was just a matter of allowing the right people to "bid" on critical sentences
Since I never trusted man-made justice anymore. Of course I'm not saying that it's everywhere like that, but you must always be aware that if your opponent has better relations or higher financial disponibility, you may have a hard time. Law, politics and business interests are a nasty mix.
Actually the good thing for CCP is that they don't have any real competition. But the picture could change the day other businesses attempt to get a share of the market. Lawsuits are used everyday as economic weapon in the industry. For example, try to find one of the big game publishers which does not have a pending case with a development studio or some other entity in the chain...
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Sallie Wonder
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Posted - 2007.11.16 12:53:00 -
[65]
the story linked by the OP isnt really about virtual property theft, its about fraud. he obtained login info through fraudulent, out-of-game means, and he should suffer the consequences of using fraud.
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Obidom Jax
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Posted - 2007.11.16 14:07:00 -
[66]
Didnt read every single post but you need to be clear on teh differences between EVE and whatever this other game was
Habbo Hotel? : The gamer pays real cash to receive in game currency, this currency is used to buuy items to decorate your rooms The suspect in question accessed these other rooms (hacking or whatever) and removed the items to his own room, these items can then be sold back for real cash the EULA for this game will no doubt indicate this is how the game works Therefore the dutch police were correct in arresting him on the charge or 'Virtual Theft'
EVE: A monthly payment is made to eve to access there servers, this is the only thing that is paid for, transactions in game Items for real cash in against the EULA and is not an integral part of the game, as Per EULA CCP own the 'virtual' items ingame
If you pay real cash for an item in game and get scammed etc there is no legal redress for this as it is agianst the games EULA There for it is not posible to arrest someone for virtual theft as they do not and cannot use real life cash to purchase items GTC codes work in a different way in which you purchase game time then trade them, CCP have authorised avenues and agents for this to prevent scamming, there for if you follow CCP rules you will not get robbed
As for the Evolution Hangar theft thing Nothing illegal there, just part of the game mechanics, happened in my corp where someone loaded up with every item in Corp hangar then took off
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Terminus adacai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.16 21:09:00 -
[67]
Obidom, as long as you can buy GTC and trade them for isk, your argument does not stand up.
Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance. |
xenoin
Kanagawa Industries
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Posted - 2007.11.16 21:14:00 -
[68]
I think there is a difference to scamming someone through the contract system or whatever and tricking them out of their log in details?
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Jenna Shame
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Posted - 2007.11.16 21:25:00 -
[69]
Actually this does have implications for EvE as the 'value' of ISK is clearly established by the GTC's.
Maybe not for the average corp theft, but lets say there is another exploitable loop hole in the contract system. Player get scammed. Player sues CCP for shoddly done contract system.
Sounds stupid but stupid and lawsuit go hand and hand.
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Earl Warren
Warren Commission
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Posted - 2007.11.16 21:57:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Jenna Shame Actually this does have implications for EvE as the 'value' of ISK is clearly established by the GTC's.
Maybe not for the average corp theft, but lets say there is another exploitable loop hole in the contract system. Player get scammed. Player sues CCP for shoddly done contract system.
Sounds stupid but stupid and lawsuit go hand and hand.
This is nonsense. Saying that GTC trades apply real moneytary value to ISK is absolute nonsense.
When you trade a GTC for ISK, you are simply agreeing to paying for someones subscription in exchange for an item, solely owned by CCP. You are not selling anything. You might call it sales, but the one receiving the GTC does not own anything in the game.
Let me also point you to this,
EULA 16. GOVERNING LAW AND EXCLUSIVE FORUM The EULA, and the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be governed and construed by and in accordance with the laws of the Republic of Iceland. The EULA shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.
The sole and exclusive forum for resolving any controversy, dispute or claim arising out of or relating to the EULA, or otherwise relating to any rights in, access to or use of the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content and/or the rights and obligations of the parties hereto, shall be the District Court of Reykjavfk, Iceland, (HTra=sd=mur Reykjavfkur).
And THIS:
11. PROPRIETARY RIGHTS B. Rights to Certain Content You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved. http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/eula.asp
The only thing of value in the game is entertainment. That's all. Saying that CCP sells ISK through GTC trades is cow exrement, nothing more.
And good luck filing a cow exrement law suits at the District Court of Reykjavfk. You'd be invited to talkshows for cheap laughs.
This is not directed at you Jenna, but the idea rather.
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Pitt Bull
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.16 22:24:00 -
[71]
The theives should spend some quality time cuddled up next to Bobo the fat convict in the local prison population. I have no sympathy for low-life scammers that defraud and steal from legitimate members of society. Hang them all, is what I say.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.11.16 22:59:00 -
[72]
It seems some people just dont see the plain unadulterated absurdity of any national court taking in game thefts or crimes seriously, it sounds like some new angle from the stupid American campaigners who persecute Rockstar games over GTA.
If theft and crime are part and parcel of the gameplay short of actually censoring crime in games and making it unlawful any concept of criminal court action is never going to happen.
And good luck with any civil cases as your very likely to just end up with a huge legal bill plus the defendants costs.
Originally by: MOTOK0 A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
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Quesa Ketahl
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Posted - 2007.11.16 23:02:00 -
[73]
The OP conveniently missed the point of the article he linked.
Quote: The teenage gang are suspected of moving the stolen furniture into their own online hotel rooms after conning other users out of their login details and passwords.
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Pitt Bull
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.16 23:04:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr It seems some people just dont see the plain unadulterated absurdity of any national court taking in game thefts or crimes seriously
SO its okay to steal as long as its virtual? Just ... No.
Its not okay to steal ever anytime, even if you play EVE where its encouraged, you're still a bottom-feeder and you should have to spend time with the other bottome-feeders in jail.
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Sarah McTeef
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Posted - 2007.11.16 23:06:00 -
[75]
You can't commit real theft in eve. CCP owns it, CCP never loses control of it. |
Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.11.16 23:12:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Pitt Bull SO its okay to steal as long as its virtual? Just ... No.
Its not okay to steal ever anytime, even if you play EVE where its encouraged, you're still a bottom-feeder and you should have to spend time with the other bottome-feeders in jail.
If this isn't a troll post, I would suggest you re read what you just posted and ask yourself "do I really mean this?" If the answer is no its all good, If the answer is maybe I suggest you cancel your sub and sell your PC and your DVD player and any games console or TVs that you own to prevent yourself being confronted by the whole concept of make believe violence and crime used in entertainment, this will save you from from much offense, anger and shock and will help cradle your fragile sanity,
Originally by: MOTOK0 A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.16 23:13:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Leya Marcsson
Originally by: Samiael what is "GCT Trade"?? Are you saying there is an official way to buy ISK?
There is no way to buy ISK, because it is against the EULA, and bad in general. BUT you can legaly sell Game Time Cards (GTC) for ISK using your Account Management. You don't get the difference? me neither...
The difference is nobody can sell isk for irl money but CCP. 2isk
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Pitt Bull
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.16 23:40:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Originally by: Leya Marcsson
Originally by: Samiael what is "GCT Trade"?? Are you saying there is an official way to buy ISK?
There is no way to buy ISK, because it is against the EULA, and bad in general. BUT you can legaly sell Game Time Cards (GTC) for ISK using your Account Management. You don't get the difference? me neither...
The difference is nobody can sell isk for irl money but CCP.
Just because its against the EULA doesn't make it a legal issue. It can be done, and it is done with some frequency, and nothing in the law can prevent it.
The only thing an EULA allows is for CCP to terminate your account at their discretion, it protects CCP from legal issues, not other players. If someone steals from my virtual character in EVE, I cannot sue them or CCP because there is no monetary value on ISK or game items. However, if someone hijacks my account (a form of theft) it is a crime, and they can be charged with fraud (I think that's a minimum of 4-7 years in prison these days?)
If you steal from people in-game, you can easily get away with it. Does this mean stealing in-game is okay? No. Its not okay, its against the norms of society and you should still consider yourself a bottom-feeder. That's pretty much all I have to say about that...
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Sarah McTeef
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Posted - 2007.11.16 23:49:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Sarah McTeef on 16/11/2007 23:49:24
Originally by: Pitt Bull Just because its against the EULA doesn't make it a legal issue. It can be done, and it is done with some frequency, and nothing in the law can prevent it.
The only thing an EULA allows is for CCP to terminate your account at their discretion, it protects CCP from legal issues, not other players. If someone steals from my virtual character in EVE, I cannot sue them or CCP because there is no monetary value on ISK or game items. However, if someone hijacks my account (a form of theft) it is a crime, and they can be charged with fraud (I think that's a minimum of 4-7 years in prison these days?)
If you steal from people in-game, you can easily get away with it. Does this mean stealing in-game is okay? No. Its not okay, its against the norms of society and you should still consider yourself a bottom-feeder. That's pretty much all I have to say about that...
You don't own anything. You don't own your character. CCP does, if you paid real money to get any of CCP's database items associated with the database item they allow you access to(your character) that makes you a very large idiot, particularly if you're going to cry about it. I hope you are perpetually stolen from so long as you play the game. Cry baby. |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Military Industrial Research
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Posted - 2007.11.17 11:48:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Terminus adacai Anyone can create a trial and spam isk for sale.
You kind of made my reply for me there, didn't you? There is not much CCP can do about it.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Military Industrial Research
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Posted - 2007.11.17 11:55:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Pitt Bull
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Originally by: Leya Marcsson
Originally by: Samiael what is "GCT Trade"?? Are you saying there is an official way to buy ISK?
There is no way to buy ISK, because it is against the EULA, and bad in general. BUT you can legaly sell Game Time Cards (GTC) for ISK using your Account Management. You don't get the difference? me neither...
The difference is nobody can sell isk for irl money but CCP.
Just because its against the EULA doesn't make it a legal issue. It can be done, and it is done with some frequency, and nothing in the law can prevent it.
The only thing an EULA allows is for CCP to terminate your account at their discretion, it protects CCP from legal issues, not other players. If someone steals from my virtual character in EVE, I cannot sue them or CCP because there is no monetary value on ISK or game items. However, if someone hijacks my account (a form of theft) it is a crime, and they can be charged with fraud (I think that's a minimum of 4-7 years in prison these days?)
If you steal from people in-game, you can easily get away with it. Does this mean stealing in-game is okay? No. Its not okay, its against the norms of society and you should still consider yourself a bottom-feeder. That's pretty much all I have to say about that...
Game != real life
By your logic, someone who stops paying their subscription could sue CCP for not allowing them access to their in-game property.
Not to mention, whenever someone blows up your ship in-game they can then be prosecuted for assault, destruction of property, etc. ... And when they blow up your pod, there will be a murder case.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.11.18 17:17:00 -
[82]
Quote: The teenage gang are suspected of moving the stolen furniture into their own online hotel rooms after conning other users out of their login details and passwords.
____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem |
Lilian Long
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Posted - 2007.11.18 17:50:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Lilian Long on 18/11/2007 17:53:33 I expect/hope that CCP doesn't give my name and address to some authority of another country, if someone wants to sue me for something that was within the game rules. ( Except they get forced to do it by the icelandic authorities. )
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Dao2SKP
Shillelagh Corp.
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Posted - 2007.11.18 18:35:00 -
[84]
sorry but that's not actually the worlds first they're just trying too sound cool ;p
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