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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2007.11.19 20:09:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Estephania
Originally by: Steve Hawkings
Originally by: Estephania Edited by: Estephania on 19/11/2007 13:45:30
Originally by: Steve Hawkings
pwn him ?? Its empire, you are not prepared to risk anything to get rewards, neither is he. read and comprehend before you post next time.
No, it's you who are wrong. If he can be flagged, then by salvaging my wrecks he accepts the risk. And I accept the risk by shooting him. Ok? I think everyone is happy.
read up dude, i dont think you unbderstand. ill put it in caps so you might be able to read it better. IT IS NOT YOUR WRECK.
Finally we've reached the problem here. The current game mechanics need to be fixed, so that byproduct of YOUR work would be YOURS. If he wants to take the chance, he salvages and if you want to take the chance, you shoot. Everyone can bail out, because not to touch anything or not to shoot are also an option.
Within half an hour of this mechanic being introduced, perhaps less, there will be crying on the forums because some enterprising prober has quietly killed a ship in some mission, then wtfpwned the mission-runner when he unwittingly salvages it. Just ask a miner who's been can-flipped lately.
What next? You'll want kill rights if someone shoots "your" rats, I suppose? Why not just cut to the chase and ask to make being in the same grid as you a CONCORDable offence?
Or, you know, just play a single player game with a chat window open.
CCP deliberately made missions non-instanced, and they did it for a reason. Theft, treachery, deceit, non-consensual PvP and risk/reward are all integral parts of the game. You do NOT have the right to have the game protect you or your property. You can defend it or lose it.
This ...
I just did not put it so to the point.
Originally by: Aravel Thon
Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox...............
I am so so terribly sorry...
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.11.19 20:18:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Estephania
You say: it's your job to defend your property. It's right, it's my job, but now I have no tools to do it. Flag the poacher and it will be up to me to decide if to defend my property or not.
Well, I'd disagree with it being your job. The reason being that the salvage isn't your property in the first place. So you do have tools, but they consist of the means to actually -make salvage your property-. First tool on that list is a salvaging module. Other tools include working with other people or alts, and missioning outside of hubs.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.19 20:25:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Originally by: Estephania
You say: it's your job to defend your property. It's right, it's my job, but now I have no tools to do it. Flag the poacher and it will be up to me to decide if to defend my property or not.
Well, I'd disagree with it being your job. The reason being that the salvage isn't your property in the first place. So you do have tools, but they consist of the means to actually -make salvage your property-. First tool on that list is a salvaging module. Other tools include working with other people or alts, and missioning outside of hubs.
The game was not meant to be played with alts. It's a nice metagaming addition of overachieving players. Missions are not THAT profitable so that you would bring anyone with you and still earn good ISK. Hubs are in place because good agents are there. Your point is to cut your profit because there are only metagaming means of trying to stop someone from profiting from your effort without any risk or consequences for himself.
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Jack Freely
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Posted - 2007.11.19 20:35:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Jobe darkhunter If you want eve to flag wrecks so that only you or your corp can loot wrecks please post here.
You can come salvage my wreaks, but we will be running missions in .4 or lower keke
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 20:48:00 -
[95]
Gonna have to break down your post here, Estephania, to get to the goodies inside.
Originally by: Estephania The game was not meant to be played with alts. It's a nice metagaming addition of overachieving players.
Nor was the game meant to be played solo. It's called an MMO for a reason, and the fact is that those who group together have a much better chance of making it in this game.
Originally by: Estephania
Missions are not THAT profitable so that you would bring anyone with you and still earn good ISK.
Missions are rediculously profitable. I stopped ratting in 0.0 because running lvl 4's in Empire was much easier, safer and equally if not more profitable.
Originally by: Estephania
Hubs are in place because good agents are there.
Yes, but there are lots of good agents in other systems too. Generally those systems have a sec rating of <.5.
Originally by: Estephania
Your point is to cut your profit because there are only metagaming means of trying to stop someone from profiting from your effort without any risk or consequences for himself.
You don't need to metagame to stop others salvaging 'your' wrecks. You need friends. And it's not your wrecks anyway. You see, when wrecks where introduced, you had to loot them in order to salvage them. This meant salvagers risked getting popped by greedy mission runners such as yourself. CCP heard their call and changed the game so that the salvagers could salvage the space trash without you greedy mission runners able to do anything about it. In short, and in caps so you understand: THE GAME CHANGED FROM WHAT YOU WANT TO THE WAY IT IS TODAY. Point being: You're wrong.
Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.11.19 20:53:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Estephania
The game was not meant to be played with alts. It's a nice metagaming addition of overachieving players. Missions are not THAT profitable so that you would bring anyone with you and still earn good ISK. Hubs are in place because good agents are there. Your point is to cut your profit because there are only metagaming means of trying to stop someone from profiting from your effort without any risk or consequences for himself.
Alts. Well, EVE is a metagamer's game, really. I don't like it or make much of use of them myself, but I also don't pretend that's anything more than my choice.
Teamwork. If it's not profitable enough for you to team up to insure you collect salvage, then you probably shouldn't be bothering to salvage completely on your own either.
Moving. Sorry, that's not metagaming. That's pragmatic decision making in a huge, highly interactive, multi-player game.
Even hisec mission runners have interesting decisions to make beyond tank and dps. Enjoy. :) * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Pitt Bull
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.19 20:55:00 -
[97]
Next thing you know you'll start claiming rocks in space as 'yours.' First come first serve pretty much, same as mining.
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Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:03:00 -
[98]
Damn, is it hard to understand that: rocks, belt rats, exploration sites etc, etc are there regardless of what any of us will or will not do. Missions are spawned because of my interaction with the agent. Missions are ridiculously profitable? I heard that T2 ships and fittings are rather expensive too. And you lose them from time to time in PvP.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:06:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Estephania Damn, is it hard to understand that: rocks, belt rats, exploration sites etc, etc are there regardless of what any of us will or will not do. Missions are spawned because of my interaction with the agent. Missions are ridiculously profitable? I heard that T2 ships and fittings are rather expensive too. And you lose them from time to time in PvP.
I do believe it is you who have a hard time understanding this. Again, for your pleasure: The game used to be the way you want it. Then it changed to what it is now. This was explained by the devs as a boost to salvagers (ninja salvagers as they called them). If you don't like it, GTFO and play Wow.
And, yes, missions are rediculously profitable. If you think they are just right you should try 0.0 ratting, an activity that is supposed to be a whole lot more profitable as it actually involves some risk, as opposed to mission running.
Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:09:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Estephania To Angel DeMorphis:
Exploration sites are there for all. Your competitor can scan them too and be the 1-st to find them. They are there regardless if you find them or not. Missions are "spawned" because of my interaction with the agent. Without me clicking that agent chat, there'd be no mission, no rats and no wrecks obviously. That's the difference.
To Malcanis:
You say: it's your job to defend your property. It's right, it's my job, but now I have no tools to do it. Flag the poacher and it will be up to me to decide if to defend my property or not. Why would there be any cry from mission runners if wreck flagging would be implemented? Are you assuming that all mission runners have absolutely no idea how to PvP or how flagging works? Or may be those several-weeks-old alts that are ninja salvaging wrecks will be a big danger to me when I switch to PvP ship for their "revenge" attempt. Or even if I lose, so what? We lose some, we win some. And nobody in his right mind won't be sitting in a faction-fitted battleship after killing a poacher and waiting for his PvP ship to arrive. HAC or Command Ship would be more suitable for that.
Well gee I guess that means that those wrecks are not your property.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
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Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:11:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Estephania Damn, is it hard to understand that: rocks, belt rats, exploration sites etc, etc are there regardless of what any of us will or will not do. Missions are spawned because of my interaction with the agent. Missions are ridiculously profitable? I heard that T2 ships and fittings are rather expensive too. And you lose them from time to time in PvP.
I do believe it is you who have a hard time understanding this. Again, for your pleasure: The game used to be the way you want it. Then it changed to what it is now. This was explained by the devs as a boost to salvagers (ninja salvagers as they called them). If you don't like it, GTFO and play Wow.
And, yes, missions are rediculously profitable. If you think they are just right you should try 0.0 ratting, an activity that is supposed to be a whole lot more profitable as it actually involves some risk, as opposed to mission running.
Game was changed back then, it can be changed again, no biggie here. The missions are just about right when you have to replace a lost HAC or Recon or a Command Ship. You hvae to grind, but not to be bored out of your mind by grinding. May be some of you actually grow ISK on trees (some do, I know), but many have to work for it. And why salvagers needed a boost I don't know. After all those are mostly alts of lame and lazy players who can't be bothered to run lvl 4's themselves.
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Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:11:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Estephania
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Originally by: Estephania
You say: it's your job to defend your property. It's right, it's my job, but now I have no tools to do it. Flag the poacher and it will be up to me to decide if to defend my property or not.
Well, I'd disagree with it being your job. The reason being that the salvage isn't your property in the first place. So you do have tools, but they consist of the means to actually -make salvage your property-. First tool on that list is a salvaging module. Other tools include working with other people or alts, and missioning outside of hubs.
The game was not meant to be played with alts. It's a nice metagaming addition of overachieving players. Missions are not THAT profitable so that you would bring anyone with you and still earn good ISK. Hubs are in place because good agents are there. Your point is to cut your profit because there are only metagaming means of trying to stop someone from profiting from your effort without any risk or consequences for himself.
Breaking news: it's possible to fit a salvager in your mission ship!
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:17:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Estephania
Game was changed back then, it can be changed again, no biggie here. The missions are just about right when you have to replace a lost HAC or Recon or a Command Ship. You hvae to grind, but not to be bored out of your mind by grinding. May be some of you actually grow ISK on trees (some do, I know), but many have to work for it. And why salvagers needed a boost I don't know. After all those are mostly alts of lame and lazy players who can't be bothered to run lvl 4's themselves.
Yes it can change again, but I doubt it's ever gonna change enough a way to please you. After all, the standard whiner is only interested in one thing: him/her self. The fact that you don't realise that this situation is what the devs wants and intends is proof of that.
As for replacing lost hacs and recons, how can a player that's less than two months old fly any of those? Unless you're an alt of course. Perhaps you are an alt of a 0.0 alliance carbear who wants the easy life in Empire? I believe it was called a 'vacation in empire'. Sorry to break it to you, but Eve is designed to be a harsh and unforgiving place. Don't want people stealing 'your' salvage? Go to low sec.
Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:17:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Estephania Game was changed back then, it can be changed again, no biggie here.
It can be.
But it won't be.
Because there's no need for it to be.
It's fine.
Cry more. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets. |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:18:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 19/11/2007 21:18:42
Originally by: Estephania Damn, is it hard to understand that: rocks, belt rats, exploration sites etc, etc are there regardless of what any of us will or will not do. Missions are spawned because of my interaction with the agent.
And why does that mean you're legally entitled to salvage? Is it that hard to understand that (NPC) salvage has a new and different ruleset than (NPC) loot and that you have to do the additional work for the additional reward? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Myshella Drake
Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:22:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Estephania Damn, is it hard to understand that: rocks, belt rats, exploration sites etc, etc are there regardless of what any of us will or will not do. Missions are spawned because of my interaction with the agent. Missions are ridiculously profitable? I heard that T2 ships and fittings are rather expensive too. And you lose them from time to time in PvP.
Stop acting like the mission area belongs to you, when does the agent say that?. They only told you to go to that area in space and kill some NPCs. FFS ive replied in so many threads about this rubbish, how about reading through these before coming up with the same poor overused excuses for this change.
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Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:26:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Estephania
Game was changed back then, it can be changed again, no biggie here. The missions are just about right when you have to replace a lost HAC or Recon or a Command Ship. You hvae to grind, but not to be bored out of your mind by grinding. May be some of you actually grow ISK on trees (some do, I know), but many have to work for it. And why salvagers needed a boost I don't know. After all those are mostly alts of lame and lazy players who can't be bothered to run lvl 4's themselves.
Yes it can change again, but I doubt it's ever gonna change enough a way to please you. After all, the standard whiner is only interested in one thing: him/her self. The fact that you don't realise that this situation is what the devs wants and intends is proof of that.
As for replacing lost hacs and recons, how can a player that's less than two months old fly any of those? Unless you're an alt of course. Perhaps you are an alt of a 0.0 alliance carbear who wants the easy life in Empire? I believe it was called a 'vacation in empire'. Sorry to break it to you, but Eve is designed to be a harsh and unforgiving place. Don't want people stealing 'your' salvage? Go to low sec.
It's an alt. Not that hard to understand. Easy life in Empire? I guess those who have alts for invention, T2 production or trade don't deserve easy life in Empire too. What would you do about them? And how about making a life of ninja-salvagers (who are themselves mostly alts, ironic isn't it) a little bit less easy.
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Snake Doctor
MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:28:00 -
[108]
Adding this would be inviting a rise in grief play.
Do you really want to shoot me if I have 6 or 7 corpmates waiting for you to do just that?
Wrecks are fine. Find a way to adapt. If they are such a big deal to you, use some diplomacy or bring a salvager with you on missions. .
Join Macrointel! |
OOOSOOO
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:29:00 -
[109]
Lets try the dictionary.
Salvage:
# property or goods saved from damage or destruction # save from ruin, destruction, or harm # the act of saving goods or property that were in danger of damage or destruction # the act of rescuing a ship or its crew or its cargo from a shipwreck or a fire # collect discarded or refused material; "She scavenged the garbage cans for food"
No mention of ownership. Hmmmm...
---------------------------------- I post therefore I am bored at work. |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:30:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Estephania It's an alt. Not that hard to understand. Easy life in Empire? I guess those who have alts for invention, T2 production or trade don't deserve easy life in Empire too. What would you do about them? And how about making a life of ninja-salvagers (who are themselves mostly alts, ironic isn't it) a little bit less easy.
Then post with your main or STFU.
Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
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Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:31:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Estephania It's an alt. Not that hard to understand. Easy life in Empire? I guess those who have alts for invention, T2 production or trade don't deserve easy life in Empire too. What would you do about them? And how about making a life of ninja-salvagers (who are themselves mostly alts, ironic isn't it) a little bit less easy.
Then post with your main or STFU.
What does it matter which character I use? What matters is what si being said and not who said that.
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Caiman Graystock
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:33:00 -
[112]
Bull****.
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Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:33:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Estephania What does it matter which character I use? What matters is what si being said and not who said that.
Your arguments are not good enough. If I am going to discuss this with you I want to know who I am talking to. As it is now, it seems like you know your arguments are weak and you don't want to show your face in fear of ridicule.
Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:42:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Malcanis Breaking news: it's possible to fit a salvager in your mission ship!
This just in! You can run your own missions to create wrecks to salvage! ZOMG -- Support fixing the EVE UI | Suggest Jita fixes
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:43:00 -
[115]
Why don't you mission in lowsec? Risk analysis, perhaps?
Well, this is a pretty good case of the blurring of that line. The lowsec/hisec difference (as far as running missions) isn't so black and white.
You don't run the 18 quality agent in lowsec because you fear losing your ship to pirates. Ok, how's this any different? Perhaps you should consider certain hisec systems the ghetto of hisec. Not as dangerous as lowsec, but some have a chance of your salvage getting 'mugged'.
It's definitely not the case in all hisec systems. There's systems you can mission in and never be bothered.
I think it's pretty awsome that the game has evolved in such an interesting way. Player provided challenges are FAR greater in entertainment value than fake NPC stuff.
But, if the game must change, here's my suggestion. That's from August... About 200 of these threads ago.
And if I may I would just like to take this opportunity to say... I FRIKKEN CALLED IT!!! (note the bit about 'Dude, where's my wrecks?') And that was in march! Ha!
---- WSSH |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:44:00 -
[116]
Originally by: OOOSOOO Lets try the dictionary.
Salvage:
# property or goods saved from damage or destruction # save from ruin, destruction, or harm # the act of saving goods or property that were in danger of damage or destruction # the act of rescuing a ship or its crew or its cargo from a shipwreck or a fire # collect discarded or refused material; "She scavenged the garbage cans for food"
No mention of ownership. Hmmmm...
And didn't one of the devs specifically say as soon as someone brings up real life or Battlestar Gallactica, he stops reading... I dunno about you, but I would take that to mean that real life mechanics do not apply to eve. -- Support fixing the EVE UI | Suggest Jita fixes
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Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:45:00 -
[117]
My arguments are better than "deal with that", "cry more", "play WoW' etc. arguments. Tbh I've yet to hear ANY arguments in support of the current situation. Why 3 week old alts should live off someone else's lvl 4 mission without any risk at all? Anyone cares to explain instead of just forum l337 talk?
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Myshella Drake
Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:52:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Estephania My arguments are better than "deal with that", "cry more", "play WoW' etc. arguments. Tbh I've yet to hear ANY arguments in support of the current situation.
are you blind or cannot read? ------------------
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OOOSOOO
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:56:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: OOOSOOO Lets try the dictionary.
Salvage:
# property or goods saved from damage or destruction # save from ruin, destruction, or harm # the act of saving goods or property that were in danger of damage or destruction # the act of rescuing a ship or its crew or its cargo from a shipwreck or a fire # collect discarded or refused material; "She scavenged the garbage cans for food"
No mention of ownership. Hmmmm...
And didn't one of the devs specifically say as soon as someone brings up real life or Battlestar Gallactica, he stops reading... I dunno about you, but I would take that to mean that real life mechanics do not apply to eve.
It's salvage ffs. You don't own it, it's a free-for-all. CCP should just introduce NPC salvager ships. If you don't salvage the wrecks before a certain amount of time, these little buggers will. If you can salvage faster than the NPC's you have won the salvaging race and good job tbh. Or you could just fit a tractor beam and a salvager to your mission ship. ---------------------------------- I post therefore I am bored at work. |
Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.19 21:58:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Estephania My arguments are better than "deal with that", "cry more", "play WoW' etc. arguments. Tbh I've yet to hear ANY arguments in support of the current situation. Why 3 week old alts should live off someone else's lvl 4 mission without any risk at all? Anyone cares to explain instead of just forum l337 talk?
Why should you get to live without some risk of loss in your own personal fluffy mission world? (As someone who runs low sec missions, I know there's absolutely no risk in high sec missioning.)
If you absolutely have to run your missions in that overused 0.9 sec space hub, you accept the risk that someone probably will come and salvage any wrecks left laying around, not for profit, not because they're going to go buy their own faction fitted ship to do their own missions, but just for giggles.
That's right, giggles.
Welcome to the MMO side of EVE.
Learn it, love it, or leave it. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets. |
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