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syphurous
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.11.20 21:03:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai 5) CCP has already stated they do acknowledge this as a "issue" and will think about a way to fix it. so what are you guys whining about? and what are the smartasses trying to convince you otherwise?
Proof or it never happened. ___
All Ur Salvage R Belong 2 Me ! |
cal nereus
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.11.20 21:09:00 -
[212]
You want proof? Easy... CCP Prism X posts about salvage
Originally by: CCP Prism X If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former.
~ Prism X
CCP wants salvaging to be a profession, not just a supplement to a mission-runner. ---
Join BH-DL Skills |
Cailais
Amarr W A R
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Posted - 2007.11.20 21:12:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Originally by: Leemon As you put it the ôlazy greedyö mission runner deserves to get their salvage stolen because they are lazy and they are greedy. That is their punishment. On the other hand, the ôlazy greedyö salvage thief has no punishment, has no fear of a negative reaction to their action and can do what they do with absolute immunity. This is not balanced.
In hisec, we cannot shoot at you without CONCORD getting involved, or paying a war dec fee, and then if you are in a NPC corp, there is nothing that can be done. You can run missions with absolute immunity. That salvagers can claim salvage in your mission deadspace with complete immunity is elegantly, symmetrically, and poetically balanced. It is so beautiful I could cry.
Well put.
C.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
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Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.20 21:14:00 -
[214]
Originally by: cal nereus You want proof? Easy... CCP Prism X posts about salvage
Originally by: CCP Prism X If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former.
~ Prism X
CCP wants salvaging to be a profession, not just a supplement to a mission-runner.
Then they'd better make it a profession. One module, one rig and a couple of skills are not a profession - it's some safe way to get lazy ISK with monkey alt.
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cal nereus
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.11.20 21:18:00 -
[215]
It's a noob profession, but you're right, most people don't treat it as one right now. CCP should look into it, and guess what? They are. o_o ---
Join BH-DL Skills |
Ki An
Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.
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Posted - 2007.11.20 21:18:00 -
[216]
Originally by: cal nereus You want proof? Easy... CCP Prism X posts about salvage
Originally by: CCP Prism X If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former.
~ Prism X
CCP wants salvaging to be a profession, not just a supplement to a mission-runner.
Are you sure that's proof that CCP is "aware of the issue and looking into it" though? I mean, the full quote reads:
Originally by: CCP Prism X Argh! You're right! Best put stop to this carefest immediately.
But honestly (and seriously.. cause the above is a joke), I'm not promising anything is going to change nor that, if it does, it will solve all the problems in the multiverse. And that historical fact is quite relevant. If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former.
I'd say this is pretty conclusive support for the salvager's right as opposed to the mission runner's.
Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.20 21:33:00 -
[217]
Actually, if salvaging were a proper profession and some training and investement would be required to get anything useful from wrecks, I wouldn't be against salvagers salvaging wrecks right under my nose, because most likely I cba to learn salvaging skills. There are so many ways to turn it into proper Eve profession and hopefully CCP will think about it.
Now it is NOT yet a profession, it looks like blueprint for future profession which needs a lot of thinking and development. From the RP point of view, salvaging is about finding abandoned ship wrecks and not salvaging in the heat of the battle which is ridiculous.
From non-RP point of view, until salvaging would require some proper training and investment I don't want lamers to touch the wrecks I produce. That's why I'd like criminal flagging (which should be removed when salvaging would be turned into real profession).
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syphurous
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2007.11.20 21:34:00 -
[218]
Edited by: syphurous on 20/11/2007 21:35:19
Originally by: cal nereus stuff Originally by: CCP Prism X Dev Quote
stuff
I'm "salvager first to salvage it wins", I dont see how that quote hurts my side ? ___
All Ur Salvage R Belong 2 Me ! |
Tenebrion Darkness
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.11.20 21:35:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Estephania
Then they'd better make it a profession. One module, one rig and a couple of skills are not a profession - it's some safe way to get lazy ISK with monkey alt.
By that logic, a lot of professions, ie. mining, trade, industry, and science, aren't really professions but just lazy people making isk.
As for myself, I've been spending quite a lot of time recently ratting in roid belts of a few .5 and .4 systems. I've come across across belts that players have just left wrecks behind, with some of the proposed changes in this thread, I'd have to aggro the person who left them just so I can get the salvage? Also, comming upon corp/solo mining ops with upteen number of wrecks sitting around them (of course I ask if they intend to salvage, before I start in on them) would require me aggro them or their entire corp just for the salvage.
The timer suggestion isn't all bad, but it would make what I'm doing right now much less profitable, considering the time I'd have to wait around to salvage the wrecks, or just let em go to waste.
Talking about the risks is kinda absurd. Mission runners in high sec (yes, I'm one of them occassionaly) have zero risk unless they're unprepared or absentmineded. Now we have people asking for salvagers to take on "more" risk without any gain in the reward.
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Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.20 21:49:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Tenebrion Darkness
By that logic, a lot of professions, ie. mining, trade, industry, and science, aren't really professions but just lazy people making isk.
To be a good miner you need quite a lot of skills and rather expensive equip and ships. Industry requires some training too. To earn massive ISK with trading you'd have to train those trading skills (not much but still) and probably invest in a freighter. You also have the risk of being killed (even in high sec). Science has some long and expensive skills, after that it's an afk ISK making and is somewhat lazy if you ask me, but it is the way they designed it.
Tbh, it looks like most ISK making activities are also alt-only activities because industry, scinece and trade (even mining) is mostly done with alts, due to the nature of the task to be either extremely boring or even not requiring you to be logged on. It's a shame that truly rich ppl in Eve are multiple alt-owners. And no, I'm not saying that multi-account dudes should not get an advantage, I'm disappointed that really effective ISK making is DESIGNED the way it would encourage ppl to use alts specifically for that. Missions are one of the few activities where ppl can earn decent ISK with their mains, actually doing something, and it is missions, which are causing the major outcry here as an unbalanced ISK faucet and not altish megafaucets
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:04:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Estephania Missions are one of the few activities where ppl can earn decent ISK with their mains, actually doing something, and it is missions, which are causing the major outcry here as an unbalanced ISK faucet and not altish megafaucets
Rife with alts they may be, but those other activities aren't isk faucets at all.
Not that I think either your arguably correct point or your inarguably incorrect point have any bearing on the topic. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:10:00 -
[222]
Oh, and I agree that salvaging needs more depth. But the way I envision it, "basic" salvaging would still be very easy, and not too much less efficient than what we have today. So I don't think people who are unhappy about ninja salvaging now would be much happier with my ideas. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:23:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Originally by: Estephania Missions are one of the few activities where ppl can earn decent ISK with their mains, actually doing something, and it is missions, which are causing the major outcry here as an unbalanced ISK faucet and not altish megafaucets
Rife with alts they may be, but those other activities aren't isk faucets at all.
Not that I think either your arguably correct point or your inarguably incorrect point have any bearing on the topic.
This is off topic, but I have to say this:
Industry is a big ISK-making activity, Datacore farming is too and I haven't even started with T2 production which is THE ISK faucet. After all where do you think all those guys with 50 bill in personal wallet came from?
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Myshella Drake
Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:26:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Myshella Drake on 20/11/2007 22:33:32 Theres all this crap about salvaging not being a 'real' profession, but how do you define what is a 'real' profession? if you think its about how many skillpoints you need to have,then thats being pretty naive IMO. Your missing out on one of the big ideas in EVE ,that its a sandbox, a profession is whatever you want it to be in EVE, not some set path you have to walk down or have to have this many SP in. If you think like that then you shouldn't be playing EVE. I can say that salvaging was a full time profession to me at one point, thats how i generated all my income and what i spent most of my time doing. Sure the system is a little barebones right now, thats the whole reason why this "stealing" occuring, because the salvagers are looking for the best way to profit from their profession. They end up in other peoples missions (occasionally), because better opportunities are not in place to make more ISK.
If anything salvaging needs a buff,how about the wreck scan group, ive heard some good ideas about real salvage sites spawning and things like that. Make some salvage ships with bonuses, im sure you have heard it before. The only problem with wrecks and salvaging right now is that the two very real professions are colliding because one is less developed than the other
The profession of salvaging needs to be distanced and less related to mission running so ppl dont get confused and think its some sort of mission runners entitlement program which is the attitude i see is popular in these threads...THE WRECK IS NOT YOURS.THE SALVAGE COMPONENTS INSIDE (NOT LOOT) ARE NOT YOURS UNTIL YOU HAVE THEM IN YOUR HOLD BY USE OF A SALVAGER I. WHOEVER USES THE SALVAGER I ON THE WRECK SHOULD (AND DOES) OWN THOSE COMPONENTS, NOT SOMEONE WHO CANT BE BOTHERED TO FIT A SALVAGER I AT THE COST OF A HIGH SLOT. ------------------
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:36:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Estephania
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Originally by: Estephania Missions are one of the few activities where ppl can earn decent ISK with their mains, actually doing something, and it is missions, which are causing the major outcry here as an unbalanced ISK faucet and not altish megafaucets
Rife with alts they may be, but those other activities aren't isk faucets at all.
Not that I think either your arguably correct point or your inarguably incorrect point have any bearing on the topic.
This is off topic, but I have to say this:
Industry is a big ISK-making activity, Datacore farming is too and I haven't even started with T2 production which is THE ISK faucet. After all where do you think all those guys with 50 bill in personal wallet came from?
Where do you think the isk people get from those activities comes from? :P You're conflating isk being moved around from one player to another with isk being conjured up from the vaccuum of space by magic. The latter is an isk faucet, the former is not. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:47:00 -
[226]
All ISK in Eve originally comes from empty space, be it spawned roids, belt rats or missions rats. It was all spawned by the game. The point is - missions are the only way for a "small guy" to earn decent ISK without investing into an army of alts or being extremely lucky with the lottery some time ago. If you think missions are risk free and mission-runners are swimming in riches they earn without any risk, I pointed you to activities which are even more risk-less, more profitable and don't even require you to be logged on.
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Aziz Hekato
Vitai Lampada
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:48:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Jobe darkhunter If you want eve to flag wrecks so that only you or your corp can loot wrecks please post here.
So if I shot a criminal in the head, would that mean that I have the right to take his wallet?
I know I know.. You cant compare EVE with real life.. I just wanted to write something _____________________________ Entering the Intergalactic Summit forum is like walking into a Startrek convention; All you see are a bunch of nerds and you'll go "WTF?" |
Tenebrion Darkness
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:51:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Estephania All ISK in Eve originally comes from empty space, be it spawned roids, belt rats or missions rats. It was all spawned by the game. The point is - missions are the only way for a "small guy" to earn decent ISK without investing into an army of alts or being extremely lucky with the lottery some time ago. If you think missions are risk free and mission-runners are swimming in riches they earn without any risk, I pointed you to activities which are even more risk-less, more profitable and don't even require you to be logged on.
Though that doesn't mean mishs aren't "risk free" and profitable, just that other activities are more so.
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Cipher7
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:54:00 -
[229]
Lazy and Greedy is a good description of the human condition.
Human beings want the most for the least, this is universal.
In Eve players feed on each other.
If you mine, ppl can come rob you.
If you rat, ppl can kill you.
Why should it be different working for an Agent?
If all Level 4's were in lowsec, it would be balanced.
I don't think having your income level drop from time to time is a huge burden to bear, considering the highsec mission runner faces NO other risk.
I am content to say that thievery is THE risk faced by highsec mission runners.
Just as every profession has a loss, so should yours.
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Cipher7
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:57:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Estephania If you think missions are risk free and mission-runners are swimming in riches they earn without any risk, I pointed you to activities which are even more risk-less, more profitable and don't even require you to be logged on.
Such as?
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Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:08:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Cipher7
Originally by: Estephania If you think missions are risk free and mission-runners are swimming in riches they earn without any risk, I pointed you to activities which are even more risk-less, more profitable and don't even require you to be logged on.
Such as?
Read above: T2 production, Datacore farming, Trading (even classic trading is relatively risk free if you're not stupid, not to talk about station trading).
Problem with your mentality is that you see mission-runner as your equal and thus are offended by his gameplay style which allows him to earn good ISK relatively risk-free. You are not even thinking about those "godlike" players who produce masses of T2 staff or have hundreds of buy/sell orders open, or farm datacores from 5 alt accounts and have many many times more ISK than mission runners, and earn it ABSOLUTELY risk-free.
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Cipher7
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:12:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Estephania
Originally by: Cipher7
Originally by: Estephania If you think missions are risk free and mission-runners are swimming in riches they earn without any risk, I pointed you to activities which are even more risk-less, more profitable and don't even require you to be logged on.
Such as?
Read above: T2 production, Datacore farming, Trading (even classic trading is relatively risk free if you're not stupid, not to talk about station trading).
Problem with your mentality is that you see mission-runner as your equal and thus are offended by his gameplay style which allows him to earn good ISK relatively risk-free. You are not even thinking about those "godlike" players who produce masses of T2 staff or have hundreds of buy/sell orders open, or farm datacores from 5 alt accounts and have many many times more ISK than mission runners, and earn it ABSOLUTELY risk-free.
Read my response to you above.
"Risk" includes periods of not making as much money, due to economic downturn or whatnot.
Which is pretty much what wreck theft is.
You're not actually "losing" anything you're just making less than %100 optimal.
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Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:20:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Cipher7
Read my response to you above.
"Risk" includes periods of not making as much money, due to economic downturn or whatnot.
Which is pretty much what wreck theft is.
You're not actually "losing" anything you're just making less than %100 optimal.
So, their risk is virtually an out of game one, as economic downturn in Eve can occur only because CCP has decided to buff or to nerf something and module they produce becomes more/less popular. They have ZERO risk in game. Yet there's no public outcry about this. They are above risk vs reward equation.But mission runners are suddenly a center of attention. Why? Because you'd be slightly envious about your neighbor's new job where he earns a bit more than you, but you don't even think about Bill Gates billions. I know it's a RL example and it's bad, but it describes the situation pretty good I think.
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Cipher7
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:27:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Estephania General impression is that ppl who defend thieves are thieves themselves, or just plain hate mission runners for some reason (envy may be). Their logic is: if it's bad for mission runners then it's a good thing.
No.
You don't get it.
Crime is a valid profession in Eve.
It's not considered "griefing" or something abnormal, taking things that don't belong to you is part of the game, like shooting haulers in highsec or wardeccing people to demand extortion.
Go to the "Crime and Punishment" forum where crooks of all sorts gather to share ideas and teach newbie crooks.
Could be a newbie thief salvaging a 3 year old mission carebear's wreck.
My point is that Crime is not some abnormal condition that needs to be "fixed."
Crime is a normal part of Eve gameplay.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:28:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Estephania All ISK in Eve originally comes from empty space, be it spawned roids, belt rats or missions rats.It was all spawned by the game.
You're welcome for the information. I'm glad to have been of help, and it's so nice to see somebody on the forums who doesn't mind admitting he's wrong. :)
Quote: The point is - missions are the only way for a "small guy" to earn decent ISK without investing into an army of alts or being extremely lucky with the lottery some time ago. If you think missions are risk free and mission-runners are swimming in riches they earn without any risk, I pointed you to activities which are even more risk-less, more profitable and don't even require you to be logged on.
I don't really know where you're going with this. Some people do have a rabid hatred of missions, but who cares? Other people are ambivalent about them, because unlike those other things you mentioned, and unlike salvaging, they're an effectively unlimited, very uncompetitive, and frequently non-interactive way to get isk...by EVE standards. But that seems like a subject for another topic, or a thousand of them more likely.
Afaic, I don't see how this ties into changing salvaging unless you can demonstrate why mission bounties, completion rewards, loot, and LP are insufficient for the hisec mission runners unwilling to move from hubs; and why changing salvage ownership is the best way to address this.
And if you're truly just concerned here about iskies for the "small guy," like you say, then why you gotta be hatin on da salvage crew, bro?
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Cipher7
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:39:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Estephania
So, their risk is virtually an out of game one, as economic downturn in Eve can occur only because CCP has decided to buff or to nerf something and module they produce becomes more/less popular. They have ZERO risk in game. Yet there's no public outcry about this. They are above risk vs reward equation.But mission runners are suddenly a center of attention. Why? Because you'd be slightly envious about your neighbor's new job where he earns a bit more than you, but you don't even think about Bill Gates billions. I know it's a RL example and it's bad, but it describes the situation pretty good I think.
Yeah you caught me.
I'm envious of highsec mission runners and Bill Gates.
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Cipher7
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:44:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai
i mission and rat in 0.0 come and get me if u have balls.
oh, what? you're a lame lowsec gate camping and blobbing wannabe piewate? Boo hoo, this is my careface about opinions from noobs like you: -_-
Smacktalk noted. See you in space.
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Estephania
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:44:00 -
[238]
Edited by: Estephania on 20/11/2007 23:45:45 Missions, mining and datacore farming have about the same level of being uncompetitive, uninteractive and unlimited and they are primary methods of earning ISK, other activities redistribute ISK.
Where I am going? After reading this thread I understand that so many ppl are upset or even outraged by the lack of risk mission runners have, so they are happy when ninja-salvagers "stick it" to those hated mission-runners. They tend to repeat "risk vs reward" mantra. I'm showing you other activities that are simply not part of that risk vs reward thing, they are far above it and generate insane profits. But I don't see anyone here bursting with rage about those T2 producers, mass traders or datacore farmers.
You (not personally you) should stop being so fixed on mission-runners and your desire to punish them for the blasphemy of earning ISK without being the part of the Eve gods club (mass traders, T2 manufacturers, multi account datacore farmers). Those guys have no risk whatsoever and have enormous rewards. Think about them if you're risk vs reward fanatic. Leave mission runners alone.
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Tenebrion Darkness
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:56:00 -
[239]
No, people are "outraged" that highsec mission runners are actually complaining about this topic, when in all honesty we have it pretty good. All I see are people who are anal about their profits and want game changes to maximize them.
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Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:57:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Estephania Edited by: Estephania on 20/11/2007 23:45:45 Missions, mining and datacore farming have about the same level of being uncompetitive, uninteractive and unlimited and they are primary methods of earning ISK, other activities redistribute ISK.
Mining is subject to the whims of both the market and CCPs endless tinkering(re: *******). Nevermind that most profitable non-macro miners are doing it in 0.0. Datacore farming is about to take a hilarious plunge into the unknown when Rev 3 hits.
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