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Testing the golem in pve

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Author	Topic
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:20:00 - [31] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 25/11/2007 00:08:49 Originally by: Rezerwowy Pies Another noob which doesnt know what he alking. Nice Self-referential humor ... a lot of trolling on a subject that should be addressed in another manner. WHY is it that there is a % chance of them firering it?! soo if i fit 7 launchers instead of 4 they magically gets an extra launcher with defenders?! it's like the ecm's of npc it is totally ******!.. and yup the golem can be used, but seriusly as a T2 bs that will cost around the same as a carrier?! fcol this is just stupid... and then we have the speed issue of missiles which has not been corrected yet, why?! i have no freaking clue, i mean a T2 fitted maledictor (amarr interceptor with rockets) can't even hit a T2 fitted interceptor because it's rockets goes at a max of 4,8km/s while a T2 interceptor will go over 5km/s without implants. (even Bs's will go over 5km/s if you pimp them, so a interceptor weapon is not able to hit a bs?!) yer there was one more thing about missile that the **** devs didn't really think of... (calling them ****** because after so many years and still no fix, they most be close to that IQ ) defenders.-.. how many people actually use them?! NON. why?! because it is a "click when you see a missile or spam click".. WTF.. you should just be able to click it active and then it would shoot as much as it could whenever missiles is in the air (not doing this is like removing the auto reactivate module feature..).. once again they show their complete lag of intelligence.. arg... it's tiresome that such easy fixes and needed once aren't done yet...
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2007.11.25 21:47:00 - [32] this is slightly off topic but: you mission runners are so ghey I can honestly not understand how anyone on this planet would like to make a mission in eve at all. this is mind boggling ... why for gods sake try these MASSIVE games, like this EVE Massive Multiplaser Game, to immerse us with gawd awfully stupidly designed missions at all. I may get a forum warning for this post but thats worth it. Greetings Grim
Hozac	Posted - 2007.11.25 23:00:00 - [33] Originally by: Grim Vandal this is slightly off topic but: you mission runners are so ghey I can honestly not understand how anyone on this planet would like to make a mission in eve at all. this is mind boggling ... why for gods sake try these MASSIVE games, like this EVE Massive Multiplaser Game, to immerse us with gawd awfully stupidly designed missions at all. I may get a forum warning for this post but thats worth it. Your favorite band sucks.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.11.26 00:51:00 - [34] Originally by: Grim Vandal you mission runners are so ghey i dont know about the ... um ... preferences of mission runners, but have you considered that everything fun in eve (heh, even chatting - CSPA charge) costs ISK, and that missions are the single best way to get that ISK in a consistent manner?
Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 01:29:00 - [35] Originally by: Grim Vandal this is slightly off topic but: you mission runners are so ghey I can honestly not understand how anyone on this planet would like to make a mission in eve at all. this is mind boggling ... why for gods sake try these MASSIVE games, like this EVE Massive Multiplaser Game, to immerse us with gawd awfully stupidly designed missions at all. I may get a forum warning for this post but thats worth it. OMG! Missions are boring? This is big news! I can't wait to see your proof. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.11.26 07:24:00 - [36] Originally by: CCP Gangleri Posting here only to correct a couple of misconceptions: NPC's have a chance of firing a defender per missile launched at them, it is a myth that Golem suffers less DPS than CNR due to fewer launhcers. NPC's that target jam are not a problem for these ships. Yes, the Golem have definetly less DPS than the CNR, and there is not counted the defenders!!! X = DPS/launcher Golem = 42X = 8X DPS CNR = 71.33X = 9.31X DPS
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.26 08:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Buyerr and yup the golem can be used, but seriusly as a T2 bs that will cost around the same as a carrier?! fcol this is just stupid... Actually, with the "changed" invention/decryptors/etc stuff, Marauders should cost rougly 600-700 mil ISK a piece to invent and manufacture. That's more or less the same as an empire faction BS. C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:20:00 - [38] Edited by: Kerfira on 26/11/2007 11:21:57 Originally by: Grim Vandal I can honestly not understand how anyone on this planet would like to make a mission in eve at all. this is mind boggling ... Is ~50m ISK/hour with no risk a good enough reason for ye? EDIT: Yes, even though it provides my PvP funds, I still thinks high-sec mission income needs a nerf! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:34:00 - [39] Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 26/11/2007 11:21:57 Originally by: Grim Vandal I can honestly not understand how anyone on this planet would like to make a mission in eve at all. this is mind boggling ... Is ~50m ISK/hour with no risk a good enough reason for ye? EDIT: Yes, even though it provides my PvP funds, I still thinks high-sec mission income needs a nerf! While isk/h is indeed quite ok I would like to point out that 'no risk' is not entirely true. It IS true that it is very low risk but you are also risking around 2 bil to 5 bil in hardware for that '50 mil isk/h' figure. That 'nerf hi sec' tantrum has been disscussed several years already and propably will be until world ends. So let me iterate one more time: 0.0 space: low investment, moderate risk; Hi sec: high investment, low risk; Low sec - sucks. Rewards are approx the same isk/h wise in both 0.0 and hi sec mission running (0.0, T2 fitted Raven vs hi sec - faction pimped CNR). Risk wise it's from lowest to highest hi sec-> alliance 0.0->low sec->hostile 0.0 Altho granted, my rantings are not related to Golem in this thread. Just something that caught my eye and I felt compelled to comment. If your experience differs from mine then feel free to share it as my 0.0 experience is somewhat outdated (back then there was no exploration and complexses were still static, altho 'equal rewards' remarks are based on belt ratting).
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:23:00 - [40] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Grim Vandal I can honestly not understand how anyone on this planet would like to make a mission in eve at all. this is mind boggling ... Is ~50m ISK/hour with no risk a good enough reason for ye? EDIT: Yes, even though it provides my PvP funds, I still thinks high-sec mission income needs a nerf! While isk/h is indeed quite ok I would like to point out that 'no risk' is not entirely true. It IS true that it is very low risk but you are also risking around 2 bil to 5 bil in hardware for that '50 mil isk/h' figure. That 'nerf hi sec' tantrum has been disscussed several years already and propably will be until world ends. So let me iterate one more time: 0.0 space: low investment, moderate risk; Hi sec: high investment, low risk; Low sec - sucks. Rewards are approx the same isk/h wise in both 0.0 and hi sec mission running (0.0, T2 fitted Raven vs hi sec - faction pimped CNR). Risk wise it's from lowest to highest hi sec-> alliance 0.0->low sec->hostile 0.0 Altho granted, my rantings are not related to Golem in this thread. Just something that caught my eye and I felt compelled to comment. If your experience differs from mine then feel free to share it as my 0.0 experience is somewhat outdated (back then there was no exploration and complexses were still static, altho 'equal rewards' remarks are based on belt ratting). When you fit your ship properly (and has decent skills), high-sec mission running IS no-risk! What most people don't realise is that the addition of rigs to ships made the Raven SO easy to permatank. Apart from getting suicide ganked, there's NO risk in L4 missions (unless you deliberately aggro everything). 0.0 on the other hand might theoretically compete if you rat in a very low true-sec system, but there aren't many of those, and those that are there tend to get visited quite often by unfriendlies. This means you get idle time, you also get wasted time if you need to go back and forth between ratting and PvP ships. All in all, the idle time and time needed for logistics in 0.0 adds up, so realistic ISK/hour is better in high-sec. Secondly, the high-sec missions can be done semi-afk if you perma-tank your ship, meaning you do not need complete attention on screen as you need in 0.0. This is an enormous advantage! I've lived in 0.0 for 16 months now with 2 characters, I've ratted maybe 3 battleships in total. Money are much easier for me to make on a different account in high-sec, sometimes even while I PvP in 0.0. I may get instances of higher ISK/hour in 0.0 than I do in high-sec, but they can't be sustained as you'll have waste time here and there. High-sec mission running doesn't have any waste time! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:39:00 - [41] Originally by: Kerfira When you fit your ship properly (and has decent skills), high-sec mission running IS no-risk! What most people don't realise is that the addition of rigs to ships made the Raven SO easy to permatank. Apart from getting suicide ganked, there's NO risk in L4 missions (unless you deliberately aggro everything). That is not true. There is several missions capable of overloading constantly running XL booster over 4x rat specific T2 hardeners. For example Worlds Collide (serpentis/gurista) second stage (drone agro, buddy shooting angel spy gets mass agro) or Enemies Abound 1 of 5 (drone/buddy shooting scrambling delta frigate gets mass agro). So my point is that you don't need delibaretly to agro every thing to die, sometimes stuff happens and 'logs don't show anything' or you get lazy or overconfident. Most losses in EVE are human errors afterall and people die in PvP also setups what are 'unbeatable' by forum warriors same way they die to NPC's in their 'unbeatable' faction fitted CNR's. It is not high risk ofcource but that risk is there. If you 'normalize' it (investment vs risk) then in my opinion it ok. Ofc I have not ran the actual numbers as I don't have relevant data to do that, but I'm quite confident devs are keeping eye on statisticks. If there would be real 'no risk' area in EVE then I'm quite sure that guys with nerfcannon would be aiming at it with great consentration already.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:25:00 - [42] For those saying about defenders going to be worse against the marauders, please reread this : 'Chance based' defender launch for each missile. If the chance to launch is 1/4, then : If you have 4 launchers on a marauder, you will loose one (statistic) and 3 will hit. If you have 7 launchers on your CNR, you will loose 1.75 (statistic again) and others will hit. Chance based means it cuts off a portion of your firepower, you understand? Proportional. 'Missions are risk free' Risk free is not fun. If you people like to run missions in a CNR with billions in fit so you can fall asleep and it will tank forever, fine. But in this situation, I understand the next statement : 'Missions are boring' Only if you run them with an uber ship and no risk. Use an HAS, play with the damage/tank balance and find what will make it faster and maybe risky, use pilot skills to slip through ennemy fire, bring the fight to few kilometers... Use a deimos! The efficiency in a deimos in a serpentis mission is better than you think and it's not just F1 F2 F3 F4 F5... Play the game as you want, it's up to you to make it fun or not. I run missions with undersized ships (AS in lvl 3, destroyers in lvl 2, sometimes frigates in lvl 3 or drestroyers too) and it makes it fun! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Say hello to my tiny friends !
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:29:00 - [43] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Kerfira When you fit your ship properly (and has decent skills), high-sec mission running IS no-risk! What most people don't realise is that the addition of rigs to ships made the Raven SO easy to permatank. Apart from getting suicide ganked, there's NO risk in L4 missions (unless you deliberately aggro everything). That is not true. There is several missions capable of overloading constantly running XL booster over 4x rat specific T2 hardeners. For example Worlds Collide (serpentis/gurista) second stage (drone agro, buddy shooting angel spy gets mass agro) or Enemies Abound 1 of 5 (drone/buddy shooting scrambling delta frigate gets mass agro). So my point is that you don't need delibaretly to agro every thing to die, sometimes stuff happens and 'logs don't show anything' or you get lazy or overconfident. Most losses in EVE are human errors afterall and people die in PvP also setups what are 'unbeatable' by forum warriors same way they die to NPC's in their 'unbeatable' faction fitted CNR's. It is not high risk ofcource but that risk is there. If you 'normalize' it (investment vs risk) then in my opinion it ok. Ofc I have not ran the actual numbers as I don't have relevant data to do that, but I'm quite confident devs are keeping eye on statisticks. If there would be real 'no risk' area in EVE then I'm quite sure that guys with nerfcannon would be aiming at it with great consentration already. Of.c. if you do stupid things, the 'risk' gets higher, and all the examples you give ARE of people doing stupid things. You could also add 'if you shoot concord' to your list, and the risk would get even higher.... Does sending kids out to play on the highway make it more risky to be a kid, or does it just show that their parents are idiots? Bringing friends, or releasing drones before everything is aggro on you, is stupid behavior and not something any reasonably experienced mission runner would do when flying an expensively fitted ship, simply because it adds unpredictability to the situation. If you don't do stupid things like that, you have full predictability, meaning the risk is zero. If you know what you're doing, apart from suicide ganks, it IS as close to no-risk as anything can come in EVE. Sure you need to know what you're doing, but its easy to get to that point. WC is completely safe as long as you know which ships not to shoot. AE/GE are pieces of cake, with the bonus rooms requiring just a little bit of attention. EA I don't know about since I don't do it (I don't like the standings loss). Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:57:00 - [44] People do stupid things all the time. Sometimes it's just random lagspike also (overview freezing for a sec and shooting wrong rat etc). I'm not trying to tell that people in faction fitted CNR's are losing them left and right. Afterall risk of 'something happening' is low if you are competent and well fitted. In relatively unrelated parallel so is flying nanoship with full head of snakes and deadspace modules but sometimes people do mistakes and if you put a lot on line then those mistakes do cost a lot. In a sense people ranting about 'damn carebears' farming level 4's in hi sec 'without any risk' sound exactly like people yelling that 'nano vagabond is overpowered' and 'riskfree'. Neither of those ships dies if pilot does not do mistakes of judgement or be victimized by random short lagspike somewhere. People do die however (altho ofc NPC enviroment is a lot more predictable ofc). If you look at latest economic report then there is some pretty interesting statisticks about CNR losses. And I highly doubt that all of them are lost in 0.0 doing PvP.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc. Onnenpyora	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:54:00 - [45] Golem is just gonna be just another mission whoring ship (raven). :P Lets have fun doing what we do best.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:07:00 - [46] Quote: Is ~50m ISK/hour with no risk It's not low risk. Ravens are the most lost ship in EVE. The only thing that approaches their horrendous attrition rate is interceptors. Look at the latest econ dev blog for exact figures. Sure for a select few vets flying around billions of faction fittings and implants, it may be a very low risk, but overall, mission runners lose more ships than anyone but the folks flying the most epxendable PvP ships.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:17:00 - [47] Edited by: Ulstan on 26/11/2007 16:20:32 Quote: I'm not trying to tell that people in faction fitted CNR's are losing them left and right. CNR's are being lost left and right. From the econ dev blog: For Jan-Aug: CNR produced: 2300 Thanatos produced: 2800 CNR lost: 1500 Thanatos lost: 450 So, we can see that The CNR is produced less often than the Thanatos and lost at a far higher rate. Again, it doesn't look like mission running, even in an expensive CRN, is 'risk free', at least to the majority of the EVE population. CNR are suffering a 65% attrition rate. Ravens are suffering an 80% attrition rate. People who say it is 'risk free' are simply ignorant of the facts. Quote: If there would be real 'no risk' area in EVE then I'm quite sure that guys with nerfcannon would be aiming at it with great consentration already. The only real 'no risk' activity in EVE is low sec piracy, ganking outnumbered pve fitted ships with complete impunity. And, unsurprisingly, CCP is introducing a mechanism to once again place cap ships pirating in low sec at some risk.
Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:23:00 - [48] Originally by: Kerfira When you fit your ship properly (and has decent skills), high-sec mission running IS no-risk! What most people don't realise is that the addition of rigs to ships made the Raven SO easy to permatank. Apart from getting suicide ganked, there's NO risk in L4 missions (unless you deliberately aggro everything). 0.0 on the other hand might theoretically compete if you rat in a very low true-sec system, but there aren't many of those, and those that are there tend to get visited quite often by unfriendlies. This means you get idle time, you also get wasted time if you need to go back and forth between ratting and PvP ships. All in all, the idle time and time needed for logistics in 0.0 adds up, so realistic ISK/hour is better in high-sec. Secondly, the high-sec missions can be done semi-afk if you perma-tank your ship, meaning you do not need complete attention on screen as you need in 0.0. This is an enormous advantage! I've lived in 0.0 for 16 months now with 2 characters, I've ratted maybe 3 battleships in total. Money are much easier for me to make on a different account in high-sec, sometimes even while I PvP in 0.0. I may get instances of higher ISK/hour in 0.0 than I do in high-sec, but they can't be sustained as you'll have waste time here and there. High-sec mission running doesn't have any waste time! Permatanking a properly T2-fitted Raven is a myth. In order to permatank it you need ridiculously expensive gear. But not everyone can afford a permatanked Raven. So using it as the "cookie cutter" setup doesn't make much sense. I'll give you that Level 4 missions are easy for 2+ year-old players, but not risk-free. Even though I have a pimped CNR I run my level 4 missions in low sec with a fully T2 Raven (no faction/deadspace gear) to minimize pirate risk. Because of this choice I cannot afford to run missions AFK or even semi-AFK. In some missions I may even need to warp out because my tank can't hold long enough to kill the heavy damage dealers. And before you ask, my critical engineering (energy/shield) skills are all at level 5. A T2 Raven involves alot of micromanaging. Now, your typical 1-year-old player running missions in high sec will not face low-sec threats, but will still face some risk in a T2 Raven. Again, I agree that the risk isn't much, but it does exist. A couple of times I was scrambled on Lvl 4 missions and in need to warp out. "BOOM!" went my T2 Raven. I was out 100-200 million isk. Granted, this was all during the T2 market oligopolies, but still. The solution isn't to continually nerf high sec to accommodate those players that can afford to run their missions in their Pimped CNR's and with 30+ million skill points just because they can breeze through Level 4's. And I won't pretend to know what is the prudent course of action to take either. Personally, I think the introduction of Level 5 missions was a step in the right direction, even though at the moment they seem to be broken (reward/risk-wise). I also believe there's too huge a gap between level 4 and level 5 missions. Anyway, I'm getting off the subject now. Just thought I'd add my two cents' worth. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Dragon Lord Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:33:00 - [49] Ok back on topic. Golem for missions. Well im considering testing a duel painter golem setup. the reason is if think it would be possible to 1 volley any npc smaller than a bs. if i get my marauder skills to 4 and painter skill to 5. i can kill most ships in 1 volley atm, but some frigs take 2, now if all but bs's die to one volley mission speed should be pretty dam fast, but ill have to skill up to fin out for sure.

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