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Taince Milano
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Posted - 2007.11.26 00:37:00 -
[1]
Like many folk around here, I have developed my own set of optimisations to speed up updating market orders. I'm talking about window layout, sorting, using special markers in your orders...
You'd be surprised how long it still takes to do the usual updates. So I timed myself, including loading the actual EVE client, logging in - right through to being back at my desktop; because many of those steps I dont usually include mentally when I think about it.
A quick run-thru took me 20 minutes, and I suspect that the few times a week when I do a more exaustive run-thru it will likely be a good 40 minutes.
Worth doing IMO, because making ISK on the market is never free. It might sell while you sleep, but that doesnt mean you didnt have to work for it. So, how much work do you put in for your money?
(Obviously I'm an alt, and my market income supports my other activities rather than being my primary activity as it is for many of the regular posters on this forum. I'd expect their numbers to be quite high, if they're willing to even admit how much time it takes up!)
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Riethe
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Posted - 2007.11.26 00:54:00 -
[2]
Shadarle only spends 5 minutes a week and makes billions!
I've noticed that when using my home PC, which is really, really slow, I can spend a large amount of time updating orders.
However when using my girlfriend's laptop (which sadly is faster than my PC) I can get it done very quickly. No delays at all during the market window refreshing, clicking orders, checking items, etc.
For some reason I always had the impression that the eve interface was bulky and slow, but the moment I tried it out on another machine I realized I just need to upgrade this heap of crap.
So I think for some of us who are behind on technology, it actually takes longer simply because of all the overhead in EVE.
You'd think being in a station, with the station environment turned off and all graphical features at minimum, that playing as a trader would be more viable on less powerful systems. Oh well.
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2007.11.26 02:41:00 -
[3]
hehe yeah I'll admit to having timed myself a few times.
Although I didnt start the clock from the moment I started the client, instead I started the clock the moment I opened the market tab.
I have been able to in 25min do the following(not sure if this is fast or not, comparitively). I have also never had any stapler incidents while doing this.;
Check and adjust 135 sell orders(each order being a different item). That means checking my current sale price versus the system and regional sell price, adjusting them to be at the current low selling price, while making sure that the "low selling" price isnt a manipulated price (by checking order volumes, sale volumes and the 90 average of price and volume). I never timed myself when putting up new orders though, I wish I had just to see how quick I could do that.
Now the "speed test" that I am most proud of though, is my contracting skillz. On a few occasions, I have put up 50 contracts in 15min. The contracts were all set price BPC contracts. 4 different BS types, 4 different BC types, 3 types of t2 mining crystal bpcs. In the 15min, i would check the current regional contracts for the same item, and price my contracts to a quick moving price. Each of the 50 contracts also had a description typed in, for ease of the consumer, that reads "MExx PExx Runx"(x being the applicable number for each BPC). OFC i must admit that I used the empty corp hangers in that station to have already pre-organized the prints, so I didnt have to show info on each bpc before I listed it.
I hope thats the sort of answer you were looking for Taince.
--
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2007.11.26 02:44:00 -
[4]
ohh i should admit too, that most of the time it would take me twice as long or even a bit more to do the above task. Since normally I would also be involved in 2 or 3 channels worth of conversation in game( man I can be a chatty cathy). --
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.11.26 05:13:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Riethe Shadarle only spends 5 minutes a week and makes billions!
Thanks for the shout out!
Bout an hour a day of active updating, tho it's been less lately... been lazy.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Taince Milano
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Posted - 2007.11.26 06:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Treelox
I have been able to in 25min do the following(not sure if this is fast or not, comparitively). I have also never had any stapler incidents while doing this.;
Check and adjust 135 sell orders(each order being a different item).
Thats about 12 seconds per order! Thats fairly quick - you must really motor through them. I tend to take a little longer - always scared I've made a mistake.
Ofcourse if those are just sell orders, the question is whether you had to get them to that location! Admittedly I was talking more about the order update side of things (and thats what you mention in your post), but the cost to you (time-wise) for selling an item has to include some amount of time obtaining it...
Its certainly interesting to see what the likes of Shadarle put in given I'm sure the volumes they trade in are substantially larger than what I trade in.
I'm a lazy trader. I did the hauling gag for some time when I traded with my main, but nowadays my market alts just remain docked. I've even managed to use the contracts system to courier some stuff with moderate success - although it really eats into the profit... and its unpredictable nature is frustrating (we need more new players starting off as couriers imo!).
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.26 06:56:00 -
[7]
My epeen isn't as awesome as you guys
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Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2007.11.26 07:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Taince Milano Thats about 12 seconds per order! Thats fairly quick - you must really motor through them. I tend to take a little longer - always scared I've made a mistake.
Well I ten key like a mofo, to many years of RL experince doing numeric data entry.
Originally by: Taince Milano Originally by: Treelox
I have been able to in 25min do the following(not sure if this is fast or not, comparitively). I have also never had any stapler incidents while doing this.;
Check and adjust 135 sell orders(each order being a different item).
Ofcourse if those are just sell orders, the question is whether you had to get them to that location! Admittedly I was talking more about the order update side of things (and thats what you mention in your post), but the cost to you (time-wise) for selling an item has to include some amount of time obtaining it...
yeah the deck was stacked in my favor, it was wash/risne/repeat in nature. All the orders were constantly the same items, all at the same station, continiously. All the items were produced within the corp I was in, and were moved to a central station by myself or others. Also made easier since they were the same items, over and over again, everything was had a quick tab to quickly check the market.
It only ever went that fast, CCP's hamsters willing.
Yes it was crazy fast, but it was the same items in the same market, over and over and over again. Mental autopilot had become engaged at that point
--
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.11.26 07:40:00 -
[9]
I'd love to hear people's average time_per_order as well as on what size of swath they're working. Maybe I'll time myself on Wednesday.
Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar Where we hate people through words. |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2007.11.26 07:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ramblin Man I'd love to hear people's average time_per_order as well as on what size of swath they're working. Maybe I'll time myself on Wednesday.
yeah wednesdays are good, the damm hamsters always find it mirthful to bog down my attempts when trying for a speed trial on Fri/Sat/Sun. --
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.26 07:52:00 -
[11]
3 minutes max. I can finish up before the next ice cycle! What are we talking about here...
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Leora Nomen
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Posted - 2007.11.26 08:42:00 -
[12]
i'm really scatterbrained, log on but after 15 minutes might already be away from computer and doing something else ... so i have no idea ... timed myself with contracts once and each contract took me about 42 seconds to look up what's already selling and make my own
guide to game time codes |
Daeva Vios
PhaseShifter Technologies
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Posted - 2007.11.26 11:17:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Daeva Vios on 26/11/2007 11:17:41 I have never timed myself, since I tend to be doing other things. Between chatting in Help and the other two channels I frequent, it generally takes me about an hour to update anywhere from 60-120 orders. If I'm powering through them and not chatting, I can get it done in maybe 30 minutes, but I constantly check and re-check just in case I accidentally dropped a stapler and didn't notice.
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Confuzer
PBA Corporation The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2007.11.26 14:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Confuzer on 26/11/2007 14:31:05 Edited by: Confuzer on 26/11/2007 14:29:32 On minute a day for billions of isk.
I just start up, run my macro on a secondary computer - go PvP - and check back how many ISK I just made doing nothing...
No rly, I dunno. I have 2 computers running, my main has 2 clients on top of eachother where I PvP and update my trade stuff when we get the silent periods in PvP. Mostly I get called back by people talking in Mumble (like TS) when there is action. So you can say I spend a few hours, from which the idle time is spend trading. I almost never update orders though. I just overcut the buyers and it will get bought in about a 2 day period ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
Calel
Caldari S.H.I.E.L.D Co.
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Posted - 2007.11.26 15:07:00 -
[15]
OMG, reading this thread made me realise just how amateur I am!
S.H.I.E.L.D. Co
Space Haulage, Interstellar Exploration & Logistical Distribution |
Orontes Ovasi
COGNET SpaceSystems Ltd
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Posted - 2007.11.26 20:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Calel OMG, reading this thread made me realise just how amateur I am!
me too
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Chiralos
Merchant Princes
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Posted - 2007.11.27 00:15:00 -
[17]
My efficiency went up when I got a big screen: can have market page side-by-side with wallet orders page. Amarr Victor. |
Eveskot
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Posted - 2007.11.27 19:53:00 -
[18]
I just started this character and the number of active orders I can have is not that great, but I log in throughout the day spending about 15 minutes per login updating my orders. Usually breakfast, lunch break, as soon as I get home, and then a few more times before I go to bed. So may 1.5 hours on average.
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Saorla Gail
Caldari The Plane Walkers
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Posted - 2007.11.27 19:59:00 -
[19]
Heheh, Dual head monitors FTW. I don't buy or sell many items just a few so I can usually get through the market in about 5-6min setting up my buy orders and organizing my sell orders. Then I sit and monitors my goods. I undercut to a threshold where i believe the market will simply rebound to in a couple of days or by the weekend. Then I just let it be and wait. Patiently.
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Ulrich Sternaxe
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Posted - 2007.11.28 12:20:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Ulrich Sternaxe on 28/11/2007 12:21:12
Originally by: Riethe I've noticed that when using my home PC, which is really, really slow, I can spend a large amount of time updating orders.
However when using my girlfriend's laptop (which sadly is faster than my PC) I can get it done very quickly. No delays at all during the market window refreshing, clicking orders, checking items, etc.
For some reason I always had the impression that the eve interface was bulky and slow, but the moment I tried it out on another machine I realized I just need to upgrade this heap of crap.
So I think for some of us who are behind on technology, it actually takes longer simply because of all the overhead in EVE.
I guess that's my problem as well. It takes me at least 1 minute to check price and modify 1 order (that's a low estimate, minerals take longer because of all the marketupdates), 2 minutes when I'm trying to fly my ship through gates and such at the same time. So for 60 orders thats 2 hours of work.
So if I buy a new pc it will hopefully be better? I thought it was just because of the market update thingy. When I right-click an order to modify it takes about 3-5 seconds for the right-click menu to appear, sometimes I click modify but in the meantime the market is refreshing and I lose my right-click menu again, then I have to right-click again and wait another 3-5 seconds, sometimes I have to do this 3 or 4 times in a row (especially with trit). If the order is not on the first page of my orders, I have to scroll, this takes another 3 seconds to find my order (scrolling slowly because of lag), but when my orders refresh it shoots back to the top again and I have to scroll back again, another 3 seconds, this usually happens only once or twice before I'm able to modify my order. After modifying it takes about 5 seconds before I can click anything. When I start checking an order I usually go to market details and start scrolling to find my order. The same annoying shooting back to the top occurs here as well, at least 3 times during checking per item type, so there's another 3 x 3 = 9 seconds wasted.
The rest of that minute (or 2) I'm actually doing something useful (looking at prices, volume, flying around, rolling something that you are allowed to smoke in the Netherlands but nowhere else ).
private investment plan |
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Riethe
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Posted - 2007.11.28 12:29:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ulrich Sternaxe So if I buy a new pc it will hopefully be better?
Absolutely. Like I said I've had opportunities to play on a separate machine and the differences are incredible.
Of course, no matter what the market refresh will always be there, and it's always going to be something that would be nice to be able to turn off. But for people like us, the jump in speed really feels like a major difference.
Honestly for the longest time I felt like the EVE interface was simply clumsy. The moment you boot it up on something that wasn't made in 1995, it feels so smooth.
Definitely worth looking into.
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Ulrich Sternaxe
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Posted - 2007.12.12 11:38:00 -
[22]
I'm so extremely happy with my new pc now. I definitely recommend anyone who has a slow gaming experience and thinks it's because of lag to get a new pc.
Man, does it make a difference, even in the market! Even in Jita! I can adjust my orders at least 5 times as fast now.
Upgraded from 2.0 ghz, 512 MB RAM to AMD athlon 64 2 x 2.66 ghz and 1gb RAM.
private investment plan |
Oriella Trikassi
Trikassi Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.12.12 12:31:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Taince Milano So, how much work do you put in for your money?
Eve in a window on widescreen, Excel alongside...
The Buy cheap Sell for profit$ part of the business is steady and slow to change, the spreadsheet gets updated every 10 days or so and adjustments made in response to competition. 20 minutes per Region if I concentrate?
The Manufacturing side gets looked at whenever new stuff is hauled from Factory to Point of Sale, which is maybe two or three times a week. Post patch as now prices sometimes wobble so I might be making daily changes. 10 minutes?
And then there's Courier contacts, raw material purchase and factory slave slot filling. Busy busy...
--- Trikassi Enterprises, oiling the jumpgates of commerce without microbidding. |
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.12.12 14:49:00 -
[24]
Excel on the left monitor. In Eve, on the right monitor, the orders tab in my wallet is open in the upper-left, and the market's in the lower-right. If I'm putting up new orders, the ships or items hangar is in the upper-right.
I've certainly never timed myself, but it seems to work pretty well.
MP --
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression! |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.12.12 16:05:00 -
[25]
i guess mine would probably be hours at a time. i'll have one toon playing eve and another toon diddling about with orders during slow times for the one playing. if that made sense.
Originally by: Ricdic Ezoran is a dirty troll. Ezoran has been repoted to mods for trolling on this and many other threads As trolling continues Ezoran will continue to be reported If Ezoran persists then |
Danari
Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.13 07:13:00 -
[26]
Pretty easy really. If I spend more than 30 minutes, I miss my train.
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Taince Milano
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Posted - 2007.12.14 00:33:00 -
[27]
yeah, the key to making the whole process quicker is to simplify every step you can.
do you have overlapping windows that are frustrating? if so, find a way you can represent them without overlapping them. or if your screen res is small, align them so bits stick out in set places - so you know to get your market tab you click in a certain place because it will be poking out there.
do you have trouble with browsing the market tab and having it repopulate? if so, youre not using your quickbar effectively.
do you have to think about the buy order, then try find items for sale, and then look at sell orders before moving on to the next item? if so, group like activities together so your brain has less to keep in mind - update all buy orders, then list assets up for sale, then update sell orders.
do you wait for eve to respond to every click? if so, figure out which clicks dont need to wait for eve windows to update and do them while the windows are still fetching data from the server.
do you triple check the amounts you put in? if so, good move. dont skimp on checking, rather speed up how fast you enter/modify numbers than skip the double check at the end. i find it helps me increase my certainty of large figures by counting under my breath - especially when entering 0's.
do you have trouble telling which market order is yours on the list? if so, look through the information displayed on the orders list and ask yourself which bit can make your order distinct without impacting your trading (always using .99 or .69 is common, but is only one method of doing this)
basically, you want simple repeatable steps which have as few mouseclicks as possible and the information laid out in an easy-to-read visual format. i have managed to improve my updating slightly and its now between 6 - 11 seconds per order depending on what i need to do with it.
a good 2 or 3 seconds of that is still waiting for eve to respond. if the UI could open the window with the desired layout before pulling the data down, it would help very much!
even once you've got your time per order down to a bare minimum, there are still a lot of other things that can be done to increase the amount of ISK you make for time invested. ive now doubled what i was previously averaging per day in increased value on my alts without spending any more time on trading.
hopefully a few of the people who are taking a minute per order and wondering how they can speed their process up are enlightened to a new way of thinking about where they are wasting unnecessary time.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.12.14 00:34:00 -
[28]
I just got finishing timing myself. It was 12 minutes and 30 seconds. The missus keeps trying to tell me for her it felt like forever.
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