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Shakuul
Caldari O RLY corp YTMND.
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Posted - 2007.11.28 20:30:00 -
[1]
I'd imagine they are currently crashing because everyone decided mechanical engineering datacores were the best and always would be, so they rushed all of their alts to do it. I guess its just a question of how many alts...
Any guesses? 1mil? 500k?
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Matalino
Gallente Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.11.28 21:15:00 -
[2]
I am hopeful that they will stop before 800K - 600K.
I cannot give detailed reasons why I hope that as it would give away too much information about my business to competitors.
There is a point at which it is simply not worth the effort to grind up the standings required to gain access to the agents, to put in the months of skill training, buy the GTC's, etc...
By the time 600K is reached there is little profit left, certainly not enough to justify the expense in setting up the infrastructure required, so you might as well find something else to do.
************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO |
Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries Zzz
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Posted - 2007.11.28 21:17:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Matalino I am hopeful that they will stop before 800K - 600K.
I cannot give detailed reasons why I hope that as it would give away too much information about my business to competitors.
There is a point at which it is simply not worth the effort to grind up the standings required to gain access to the agents, to put in the months of skill training, buy the GTC's, etc...
By the time 600K is reached there is little profit left, certainly not enough to justify the expense in setting up the infrastructure required, so you might as well find something else to do.
Of course with new T2 ships and the current rumors of removing T2 BPO in future (no dates known, just rumors lurking on the forums) it could equalise as more people need more ships and more datacores needed.
Rate my charecters please http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=642081WTS Rorq |
Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.28 21:21:00 -
[4]
Be able to stay diverse is what it's going to be all about.
Everyone and their dog's mother is training for Mech Engineering.
There will be an increased demand for them in the weeks following the patch, but there's also people buying and holding stashes of them to sell for when they do, so prices could well fall for a while as a result.
Luckily for me I have backup for when they do. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets. |
Matalino
Gallente Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.11.28 21:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kirjava Of course with new T2 ships and the current rumors of removing T2 BPO in future (no dates known, just rumors lurking on the forums) it could equalise as more people need more ships and more datacores needed.
Increased demand will NOT increase long term prices as supply will rise to meet demand.
The detirmining factor for long term prices is the cost in effort and training required to begin production of those DC's.
Regarding the current decline in DC prices, I have mixed feelings.
Part of me wants the higher prices as I will personally make more ISK in the short term, making it faster and easier to repay my bond and start on other projects.
Part of me wants to see the market drop quickly so that prices become more steady long term which makes opperation of DATAC much more predictable.
************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO |
Minerva Vulcan
Caldari The Nexus Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.28 21:47:00 -
[6]
I think around 750k or so.
But that's just a feeling I have. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets. |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD Solidus Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.29 05:13:00 -
[7]
if connected to the costs of gametime:
hummm regarding my minnie agents; an account with 3 chars like that and all relevant skills to IV, i'd say... *calc* 630 datacores per month. 30d-GTC being ~210mil... *calc* 333k per core and an account can sustain itself.
's a ***** to get those standings, but as we all know: some empire-dwellers are still happy to e.g. sell stuff below mineral value. so they will undermine such a calculation eventually. besides, there's room for more skills: just bringing mech.eng to V will increase RP by ~26%. and people wont just stop farming because the price is bad; what else to do with 2 throw-away alts just designed for that purpose. counter that with constantly rising GTC prices, i'd still say the bottom line would be 300k - putting the gist back into logistics |
Silvercloud
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Posted - 2007.12.13 22:54:00 -
[8]
they will bottom out below the point where a full 6 agents can't pay for a GTC, since thats how markets work. At this point i would guess somewhere between 400.000 and 500.000 (might be higher if GTC prices go up). Especially with the IPOs trying to harvest datacores and use them to power accounts combined with regular players, prices cant avoid falling below this threshold.
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Von Ulrich
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Posted - 2007.12.13 23:15:00 -
[9]
Hmmm, let's hope my investment in DATAC doesn't lose me mucho dinero !!!
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Matalino
Gallente Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.13 23:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Von Ulrich Hmmm, let's hope my investment in DATAC doesn't lose me mucho dinero !!!
I wouldn't worry about that yet, I am generally pesimistic in my projections so that I can provide pleasent suprises.
************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO |
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Rho'varo
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Posted - 2007.12.14 02:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: Von Ulrich Hmmm, let's hope my investment in DATAC doesn't lose me mucho dinero !!!
I wouldn't worry about that yet, I am generally pesimistic in my projections so that I can provide pleasent suprises.
Well, now everyone'll be expecting pleasant surprises. So much for underpromising! |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.14 02:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Silvercloud they will bottom out below the point where a full 6 agents can't pay for a GTC, since thats how markets work. At this point i would guess somewhere between 400.000 and 500.000 (might be higher if GTC prices go up). Especially with the IPOs trying to harvest datacores and use them to power accounts combined with regular players, prices cant avoid falling below this threshold.
This is not accurate. Prices are always above the point of no profit, otherwise no one would bother.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Rock Brazen
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Posted - 2007.12.14 02:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Silvercloud they will bottom out below the point where a full 6 agents can't pay for a GTC, since thats how markets work. At this point i would guess somewhere between 400.000 and 500.000 (might be higher if GTC prices go up). Especially with the IPOs trying to harvest datacores and use them to power accounts combined with regular players, prices cant avoid falling below this threshold.
This is not accurate. Prices are always above the point of no profit, otherwise no one would bother.
I think alot of folks made up alts for the sole purpose of farming cores. That's pretty much a given. As the prices fall below what we are estimating as "profit" (cost to buy GTCs) do you think these folks will abandon their accounts or keep selling the cores and use their accounts for other additional profit based ventures? Someone with the time investment in farming status and training for core harvesting is going to want to give it a go before throwing in the towel. Thus, I do see how cores could fall below the "profit" level. LOTS of people did this and the volume of cores hitting the market is huge causing the downturn. It is also happening at a time when demand is probably close to a peak with Trinity hitting. I see as the demand slows a bit as the new T2 ship market gets less profitable, we will still see the volume of cores staying fairly close to where they are now. Net effect- less demand, similar supply = lower core prices.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.14 02:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rock Brazen
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Silvercloud they will bottom out below the point where a full 6 agents can't pay for a GTC, since thats how markets work. At this point i would guess somewhere between 400.000 and 500.000 (might be higher if GTC prices go up). Especially with the IPOs trying to harvest datacores and use them to power accounts combined with regular players, prices cant avoid falling below this threshold.
This is not accurate. Prices are always above the point of no profit, otherwise no one would bother.
I think alot of folks made up alts for the sole purpose of farming cores. That's pretty much a given. As the prices fall below what we are estimating as "profit" (cost to buy GTCs) do you think these folks will abandon their accounts or keep selling the cores and use their accounts for other additional profit based ventures? Someone with the time investment in farming status and training for core harvesting is going to want to give it a go before throwing in the towel. Thus, I do see how cores could fall below the "profit" level. LOTS of people did this and the volume of cores hitting the market is huge causing the downturn. It is also happening at a time when demand is probably close to a peak with Trinity hitting. I see as the demand slows a bit as the new T2 ship market gets less profitable, we will still see the volume of cores staying fairly close to where they are now. Net effect- less demand, similar supply = lower core prices.
I disagree demand will drop much. Sure people will stop building as many of the new ships soon, but prices on other T2 items will likely go up in price a bit... and thus be more profitable to invent and people will just switch over to them. But I'm sure we'll continue seeing more and more new T2 invention only items appearing each patch, to continue testing the invention system. This will pave the way for T3.
I also do not think many people bought accounts just to do this. I find that very hard to believe. Sure, some did... but I doubt many did.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Rasta Farian
Rasta Tropical Club
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Posted - 2007.12.14 03:10:00 -
[15]
Do not forget that inactive accounts keep generating RP.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.14 04:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Rasta Farian Do not forget that inactive accounts keep generating RP.
Which is why prices have dropped a bit due to the last patch. A lot of old timers came back and cashed in. Those stockpiles will be clearing up soon enough.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Cergorach
Amarr The Helix Foundation
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Posted - 2007.12.15 08:23:00 -
[17]
The break even point would be 120.000 isk for each ME DataCore, possibly even 80.000 isk (if a certain mechanic works as it's rumoured). That assumes that the 90 day GTC is available at 450M isk. Assuming of course you have all the relevant skills maxed out and have six of the best ME agents available (spread across multiple corporations), with three characters per account. Training those three characters would take a year, raising their standing would take many days, and collecting those ME DataCores would also take many more days.
The upside is that those accounts can do more than do DataCore research alone, each has six research slots the first year, and after the first year you can train the characters further for more research slots, sell/buy orders, contracts, POS gunners, etc....
So there's a long way further to drop, and to be brutally honest, i doubt that many folks have the patience or the willpower to keep that up for a year or longer. My educated guess is that as the ME DC price drops and a single research 'alt' can't pay for the upkeep for the account, the work involved (collecting and selling the ME DCs) will not be worth the time for a lot of folks, those alts will either be rededicated (with RPs accumulating in the background and only collected on an irregular basis) or sold to folks who still see the potential.
As time progresses a lot of the dedicated ME DC 'barons' will be able to start inventing themselves, so less ME DC on the market, an increase of T2 production, lower T2 prices, less demand for ME DC cores. But i suspect that the amount of ME DCs that won't make it to the market outweighs the decrease of demand (as more and more T2 items are introduced without BPOs).
ps. i just realised that if you let those characters be dormant for a year after the initial training year, and bought a 30 day GTC for 200M isk the break even price would be around 13.500 isk, depressing isn't it...
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Tessikhet
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Posted - 2007.12.15 20:26:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Tessikhet on 15/12/2007 20:27:11 Datacores are the only form of passive income that is available to non-traders. The costs to set the machine in motion is like one week of mission running, two weeks of skill grinding, and then it's basically free money for the rest of your character's life. The start-up cost is only like 55 million or so to boot.
Probably people will stop entering the market when there is some more profitable way to invest that same amount of game time, training time, and 55 million ISK. I can't see any such thing on the horizon. I would have still entered the datacore game if the price per core was only 150,000.
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Prodigal
Caldari New Genesis Project
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Posted - 2007.12.16 01:26:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Matalino
Originally by: Kirjava Of course with new T2 ships and the current rumors of removing T2 BPO in future (no dates known, just rumors lurking on the forums) it could equalise as more people need more ships and more datacores needed.
The detirmining factor for long term prices is the cost in effort and training required to begin production of those DC's.
I am pretty sure you understand that datacores are not produced. I thought it important that others who may not know any better do not get the impression that these are produced like other items.
Cheers,
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Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.12.16 18:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tessikhet Edited by: Tessikhet on 15/12/2007 20:27:11 Datacores are the only form of passive income that is available to non-traders. The costs to set the machine in motion is like one week of mission running, two weeks of skill grinding, and then it's basically free money for the rest of your character's life. The start-up cost is only like 55 million or so to boot.
Probably people will stop entering the market when there is some more profitable way to invest that same amount of game time, training time, and 55 million ISK. I can't see any such thing on the horizon. I would have still entered the datacore game if the price per core was only 150,000.
this.
plus those alts can always switch off to whatever datacore is doing well currently.
Originally by: Ricdic Ezoran is a dirty troll. Ezoran has been repoted to mods for trolling on this and many other threads As trolling continues Ezoran will continue to be reported If Ezoran persists then |
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.16 19:52:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Tessikhet Edited by: Tessikhet on 15/12/2007 20:27:11 Datacores are the only form of passive income that is available to non-traders. The costs to set the machine in motion is like one week of mission running, two weeks of skill grinding, and then it's basically free money for the rest of your character's life. The start-up cost is only like 55 million or so to boot.
Probably people will stop entering the market when there is some more profitable way to invest that same amount of game time, training time, and 55 million ISK. I can't see any such thing on the horizon. I would have still entered the datacore game if the price per core was only 150,000.
this.
plus those alts can always switch off to whatever datacore is doing well currently.
It's not quite so easy to just switch off to any data core you want.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.16 21:12:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tessikhet Edited by: Tessikhet on 15/12/2007 20:27:11 Datacores are the only form of passive income that is available to non-traders. The costs to set the machine in motion is like one week of mission running, two weeks of skill grinding, and then it's basically free money for the rest of your character's life. The start-up cost is only like 55 million or so to boot.
Probably people will stop entering the market when there is some more profitable way to invest that same amount of game time, training time, and 55 million ISK. I can't see any such thing on the horizon. I would have still entered the datacore game if the price per core was only 150,000.
You are speaking of operating with 1 agent, as Quote: two weeks of skill grinding
will not account for any meaningful level of a science skill and the skills for several agents.
Getting 5 agents and 1 science skill at 5 require about 40 days for a character build to be a R&D alt. The sixt agent is 35 days alone for a character with 30 intelligence.
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Tessikhet
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Posted - 2007.12.16 21:54:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Tessikhet on 16/12/2007 21:56:23 I didn't include the time to train science to 5 as that's useful for cybernetics.
The only things I had to train that I would not have otherwise trained where Mech Eng to 4, Research to 5, Lab Ops to 5, and Project Mgmg to 3. It was 14-20 days of training. I don't really have the exact amount engraved into my mind because it's a piddly amount of time in return for the benefit gained.
The point is that the barrier to entry into the cores market is practically non-existent, so don't expect it to be a big cash-cow forever. I expect to find myself clone-jumping back to empire once every 3 months for a 100 million ISK payout. Just like training up those learning skills, it's just another little grind that pays off in the long run.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.16 22:22:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tessikhet Edited by: Tessikhet on 16/12/2007 21:56:23 I didn't include the time to train science to 5 as that's useful for cybernetics.
The only things I had to train that I would not have otherwise trained where Mech Eng to 4, Research to 5, Lab Ops to 5, and Project Mgmg to 3. It was 14-20 days of training. I don't really have the exact amount engraved into my mind because it's a piddly amount of time in return for the benefit gained.
The point is that the barrier to entry into the cores market is practically non-existent, so don't expect it to be a big cash-cow forever. I expect to find myself clone-jumping back to empire once every 3 months for a 100 million ISK payout. Just like training up those learning skills, it's just another little grind that pays off in the long run.
But if it is done on alts specifically made for this then those skills are absolutely required and should be added to the time it takes.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:24:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Tessikhet Edited by: Tessikhet on 16/12/2007 21:56:23 I didn't include the time to train science to 5 as that's useful for cybernetics.
The only things I had to train that I would not have otherwise trained where Mech Eng to 4, Research to 5, Lab Ops to 5, and Project Mgmg to 3. It was 14-20 days of training. I don't really have the exact amount engraved into my mind because it's a piddly amount of time in return for the benefit gained.
The point is that the barrier to entry into the cores market is practically non-existent, so don't expect it to be a big cash-cow forever. I expect to find myself clone-jumping back to empire once every 3 months for a 100 million ISK payout. Just like training up those learning skills, it's just another little grind that pays off in the long run.
But if it is done on alts specifically made for this then those skills are absolutely required and should be added to the time it takes.
if it's done on an alt specifically for this purpose; then how many of the "needed" skills are there at creation?
plus the other lvl 5s you'll need for the OTHER sciences you'll need to train in order to use that lvl 4/5/whatever r&d agent.
Originally by: Ricdic Ezoran is a dirty troll. Ezoran has been repoted to mods for trolling on this and many other threads As trolling continues Ezoran will continue to be reported If Ezoran persists then |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Tessikhet Edited by: Tessikhet on 15/12/2007 20:27:11 Datacores are the only form of passive income that is available to non-traders. The costs to set the machine in motion is like one week of mission running, two weeks of skill grinding, and then it's basically free money for the rest of your character's life. The start-up cost is only like 55 million or so to boot.
Probably people will stop entering the market when there is some more profitable way to invest that same amount of game time, training time, and 55 million ISK. I can't see any such thing on the horizon. I would have still entered the datacore game if the price per core was only 150,000.
this.
plus those alts can always switch off to whatever datacore is doing well currently.
It's not quite so easy to just switch off to any data core you want.
if you're using a lvl 4 r&d agent (or multiple lvl 4 r&d agents), i don't believe you can just train mechanical engineering to lvl 4 and start using that toon, can you? don't those agents have like 5-8 lvl 4 *researchie* skills as skill prereqs? and you can choose any of the fields THAT agent (which you're currently utilizing) offers, correct?
i mean, i'm going on that assumption; but i could be wrong and you just need mech eng to lvl 4 and the agent will let you use it.
Originally by: Ricdic Ezoran is a dirty troll. Ezoran has been repoted to mods for trolling on this and many other threads As trolling continues Ezoran will continue to be reported If Ezoran persists then |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Tessikhet Edited by: Tessikhet on 15/12/2007 20:27:11 Datacores are the only form of passive income that is available to non-traders. The costs to set the machine in motion is like one week of mission running, two weeks of skill grinding, and then it's basically free money for the rest of your character's life. The start-up cost is only like 55 million or so to boot.
Probably people will stop entering the market when there is some more profitable way to invest that same amount of game time, training time, and 55 million ISK. I can't see any such thing on the horizon. I would have still entered the datacore game if the price per core was only 150,000.
this.
plus those alts can always switch off to whatever datacore is doing well currently.
It's not quite so easy to just switch off to any data core you want.
if you're using a lvl 4 r&d agent (or multiple lvl 4 r&d agents), i don't believe you can just train mechanical engineering to lvl 4 and start using that toon, can you? don't those agents have like 5-8 lvl 4 *researchie* skills as skill prereqs? and you can choose any of the fields THAT agent (which you're currently utilizing) offers, correct?
i mean, i'm going on that assumption; but i could be wrong and you just need mech eng to lvl 4 and the agent will let you use it.
Mech engineering 4 allows you to use to use a level 4 agent to research mech engineering. If you want to research something else besides mech engineering on a level 4 agent you'll need that skill at level 4 as well.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Professor Sprocket
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Posted - 2007.12.17 01:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Tessikhet Edited by: Tessikhet on 15/12/2007 20:27:11 Datacores are the only form of passive income that is available to non-traders. The costs to set the machine in motion is like one week of mission running, two weeks of skill grinding, and then it's basically free money for the rest of your character's life. The start-up cost is only like 55 million or so to boot.
Probably people will stop entering the market when there is some more profitable way to invest that same amount of game time, training time, and 55 million ISK. I can't see any such thing on the horizon. I would have still entered the datacore game if the price per core was only 150,000.
this.
plus those alts can always switch off to whatever datacore is doing well currently.
It's not quite so easy to just switch off to any data core you want.
if you're using a lvl 4 r&d agent (or multiple lvl 4 r&d agents), i don't believe you can just train mechanical engineering to lvl 4 and start using that toon, can you? don't those agents have like 5-8 lvl 4 *researchie* skills as skill prereqs? and you can choose any of the fields THAT agent (which you're currently utilizing) offers, correct?
i mean, i'm going on that assumption; but i could be wrong and you just need mech eng to lvl 4 and the agent will let you use it.
Mech engineering 4 allows you to use to use a level 4 agent to research mech engineering. If you want to research something else besides mech engineering on a level 4 agent you'll need that skill at level 4 as well.
You do not need your advanced science skill (mech eng, nanite eng etc.) to level 4 to use a level 4 agent. The formula is ((agent_level + your_skill_level) ^2) so, if you have the standing for a level 4 agent, these would be your base rp values:
Skill level Rps per day (double if doing missions) ====================================================== 1 25 2 36 3 49 4 64 5 81
Thus, even with a 3 science skill (very easy to get), you are getting over a core a day (the agent quality adds additional RPs as a percentage (multiply the number above by agent_quality / 100) and add to the above total.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.12.17 08:57:00 -
[29]
It takes approx 2 months of training time to get one char up to 5 agents at good potential. I know bcos I did consider possibility of using 'power of 2' to get myself one more R&D account with 3 research chars and activate it once ot twice per year with timecodes after that.
That approx 2 months is optimized for 'power of 2' offer tho and it's possible to cut approx a week or so off from there as it had some other not that essential skills also in the mix. It might be possible with as low as 1 month if you really want to save some training time, but then you would not get mech engineering level 5.
I did not go for it tho as I already have too many alts and grinding stadings for my alt on some lev 3 agent is very boring plus horrendously nonprofitable compared to chaining level 4 missions.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.17 09:09:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tessikhet Edited by: Tessikhet on 16/12/2007 21:56:23 I didn't include the time to train science to 5 as that's useful for cybernetics.
The only things I had to train that I would not have otherwise trained where Mech Eng to 4, Research to 5, Lab Ops to 5, and Project Mgmg to 3. It was 14-20 days of training. I don't really have the exact amount engraved into my mind because it's a piddly amount of time in return for the benefit gained.
The point is that the barrier to entry into the cores market is practically non-existent, so don't expect it to be a big cash-cow forever. I expect to find myself clone-jumping back to empire once every 3 months for a 100 million ISK payout. Just like training up those learning skills, it's just another little grind that pays off in the long run.
Time for 1 Amarr with maximum intelligence and +3 implants from the day he completed Science 5 (casually it is the first recorded skill in the skill list for him) and the time he had 4 agents and 3 in Amarr starship design 40 days.
You are speaking about training your main to do a little side activity as a datacore farming while we are speaking about building a character whose main activity is farming datacores.
For you Mechanics 5, Electronic 5, ecc. are a given as they are useful for ship combat, while for a datacore farming character they are a skill trained for his job.
Beside that I think you are forgetting several days of skill training in the skill you listed.
Later, when I can open EVE, I will put more precise time for the skills based on the skill completation messages. .
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