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Brodde Dim
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Posted - 2007.11.29 06:59:00 -
[1]
Fellow contenders, we can finally give you the preliminary score from the last forum whining contest.
To no suprise, its another victory for the veterans of the caldari whine squads, and this time it wasnt much of a fight.
While we are still counting points, the results so far are:
Caldari = +12
Minmatar = 0
Amarr = -7
Gallente = -15
And while the complete list of wins and losses would be to long for one post, I will just point out the ones that actually does matter to the final score. (Only nerfs/boosts where the ships role (bonuses) are affected, and general changes that affect most ships).
Gallente:
Eos:
- drone bay
- gun slots
- drone bandwidth
- scoop drone healing
- Gang link, info superiority nerfed
Myrmid:
- drone bandwidth
- scoop drone healing
Ishkur
- drone bandwidth
- scoop drone healing
Dominix
- scoop drone healing
Vexor
- scoop drone healing
Ishtar
- scoop drone healing
Celestis
- RSD efficiency
Arazu
- RSD efficiency
Lachesis
- Lachesis RSD efficiency
Amarr
- Tracking computers nerfed
Curse:
- TD efficiency
- drone bandwidth
- scoop drone healing
Pilgrim
- TD efficiency
- drone bandwidth
- scoop drone healing
Minmatar:
- Tracking computers nerfed
Typhoon:
+ Torp damage
Caldari:
+ ship agility to most ships
Raven:
+ Torp damage
Scorpion:
+ ECM efficiency
+ ECM cap use
Falcon:
+ ECM efficiency
+ ECM cap use
Rook:
+ ECM efficiency
+ ECM cap use
Blackbird:
+ ECM efficiency
+ ECM cap use
Nighthawk
+ Gang link cap use reduced (boost for passive tank)
Vulture
+ Gang link cap use reduced (boost for passive tank)
Once again CCP balances the game with the precission of a blind man performing life saving surgery with a chainsaw, with guidance from a blood thirsty audience.
The question now is; Will the up and coming Gallente whining team take the challenge and try to recover? They have made a huge improvement and shown strong will the last couple of weeks. And will Amarr finally give up?
Is this post a whine? Offcourse it is. If one thing is to be learned from this next patch, it is that whining works. More forum whining will give you good stuff. And for those who dont want to whine? Tough luck.
Ok, Caldari whiners, show me your flaming skills.
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Incantare
Caldari
Kernel of War
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:03:00 -
[2]
Did it ever occur to you that Caldari isn't balanced as is and needs these buffs?
It's unfortunate Amarr weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue.
Many of the Gallente nerfs were much needed, some less so.
In short: shut up.
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Steakkbone
Helios Incorporated
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:10:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Incantare
It's unfortunate Amarr weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue.
Amarr weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue.
weren't given their oomph in this patch but the devs have stated they are looking at the issue.
weren't given their oomph
Oomph must be given.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:16:00 -
[4]
i am fantastic for performing lifesaving surgery 
you for got the ishkur and malus for the gallente damp/drone ship
and for the curse you might as well have put RSD nerf instead of TC nerf
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Phoenicia
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:16:00 -
[5]
So wait...
Pre-Trin, most of the pvp-ships of choice were Gallente. Least of the pvp-ships were Caldari. Most boosts to Caldari are pvp-related. Most nerfs to Gallente are pvp-related.
In my head it all makes sense!
My head is a scary place though...
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Phoenicia
So wait...
Pre-Trin, most of the pvp-ships of choice were Gallente. Least of the pvp-ships were Caldari. Most boosts to Caldari are pvp-related. Most nerfs to Gallente are pvp-related.
In my head it all makes sense!
My head is a scary place though...
go watch "mr stain on junk alley" you dont want to know where your head will be then 
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Merin Ryskin
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:18:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 29/11/2007 07:22:19
Well, when you add it up like that, counting the + or - once for every ship, of course you get a result like that. Especially when you include things like 'tracking computers nerfed' or 'command module cap needs' for only one race.... something that's just absurd. My Caldari railboats will definitely suffer from the tracking computer nerf, and my non-Caldari command ships will definitely benefit from more cap/sec. So how about a more realistic score:
Summary:
Gallente -5
Amarr: -3
Minmatar: +1
Caldari: +3
Gallente:
- Eos drone bandwidth
- Eos gun slots
- Myrmidon bandwidth
- Ishkur bandwidth
- RSD effectiveness
Amarr:
- Curse bandwidth
- Pilgrim bandwidth
- TD effectiveness (ok, granted, this is just insult to injury)
Minmatar:
+ Torp damage
Caldari:
+ ECM strength
+ Agility
+ Torp damage
Inappropriate:
- Tracking computer nerf (used by all races equally)
- Drone shield nerf (used by all races)
- Gallente gang mods nerfed (not changed at all)
- Gang mod cap use reduced (used by all races)
- ECM cap use reduced (ECM ships are already cap stable, so this is mostly irrelevant)
Doesn't seem so one-sided anymore, does it? Even with your absurd over-simplification of just counting nerfs/boosts without looking at how necessary they were and assuming all nerfs and boosts are weighted equally, the score is far less dramatic than you claim.
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Phoenicia
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:25:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
go watch "mr stain on junk alley" you dont want to know where your head will be then
Is that like "Two girls one cup"?
On-topic: Although I feel that the Gallente "nerf" and Caldari "boost" will go a long way towards some honest balancing in pvp, I feel that Amarrians also need a slight boost.
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Brodde Dim
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Well, when you add it up like that, counting the + or - once for every ship, of course you get a result like that. Especially when you include things like 'tracking computers nerfed' or 'command module cap needs' for only one race.... something that's just absurd. My Caldari railboats will definitely suffer from the tracking computer nerf, and my non-Caldari command ships will definitely benefit from more cap/sec.
Pointing out the changes that affects all ships doesnt does not change the balance in any way. Thats why I only list changes that directly improve or degrade specialized ships.
Some general changes affect 1 race a lot harder than the others, like tracking computer nerf, wich is a bigger problem for Amarr who are a lot more dependant on turrets than the others.
Also some changes look like they will boost all races ships, but some of the ships get a lot better by than others. Like the gang link cap reduction. It will not matter much to gallente, minmatar and especially amarr command ships, since they will allways fit a cap injector anyways. But if you would passaivly tank a Nighhawk or Vulture, the cap drain from the gang links make a lot of difference.
And boosts to ships that are fine allready should count. In the same way as nerfs for ships that are all ready broken should count. Actually that should really give bonus points in the whining contest to Caldari. And maybe Amarr should consider sacking their coach.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
- Gallente gang mods nerfed (not changed at all)
Gallente gang mods will get their bonus for RSD and TD changed from 2% to 1.2% (that is a change).
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NoNah
Tenth Legion Holdings
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:44:00 -
[10]
Edited by: NoNah on 29/11/2007 07:44:35
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 29/11/2007 07:22:19
Well, when you add it up like that, counting the + or - once for every ship, of course you get a result like that. Especially when you include things like 'tracking computers nerfed' or 'command module cap needs' for only one race.... something that's just absurd. My Caldari railboats will definitely suffer from the tracking computer nerf, and my non-Caldari command ships will definitely benefit from more cap/sec. So how about a more realistic score:
Summary:
Gallente -5
Amarr: -3
Minmatar: +1
Caldari: +3
Gallente:
- Eos drone bandwidth
- Eos gun slots
- Myrmidon bandwidth
- Ishkur bandwidth
- RSD effectiveness
Amarr:
- Curse bandwidth
- Pilgrim bandwidth
- TD effectiveness (ok, granted, this is just insult to injury)
Minmatar:
+ Torp damage
Caldari:
+ ECM strength
+ Agility
+ Torp damage
Inappropriate:
- Tracking computer nerf (used by all races equally)
- Drone shield nerf (used by all races)
- Gallente gang mods nerfed (not changed at all)
- Gang mod cap use reduced (used by all races)
- ECM cap use reduced (ECM ships are already cap stable, so this is mostly irrelevant)
Doesn't seem so one-sided anymore, does it? Even with your absurd over-simplification of just counting nerfs/boosts without looking at how necessary they were and assuming all nerfs and boosts are weighted equally, the score is far less dramatic than you claim.
Actually... While not quite agreeing with most said so far, theres quite a bit of things to much wrong here, for me to remain silent.
The rokh has had a problem so far, it needed the tracking from tracking computers, however not the optimal increase as it's allready on the boat. Making it end up with absurd ranges around 300km effective. With this change, it will need the same amount of tracking modules as before, while all other ships need the double. Same goes for all other caldari railships, but in lesser extent.
And I do hope you realize not all ships rely as heavily on drones as Gallente and the amarr arbitrator-serie? Drones are a factional weapon of Gallente as much as rails are a weapon of caldari.
Comparing the fleet commandships, you'll notice a difference when it comes to cap use. The vulture can go with a strong passive tank, however suffers severe cap issues when it comes to gang modules. It's by far the most cap hungry fleet command around. Guess what?
So... because ships are capstable as it is, more cap is not a buff? Come on...
Originally by: Patch Notes
Information Warfare Link - Electronic Superiority now has different bonuses to different type of electronic warfare:
ECM and target painters: 2%
Remote sensor dampeners and tracking disruptors: 1.2%
Postcount: 519225
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the thorn
Tres Viri
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Posted - 2007.11.29 07:58:00 -
[11]
a blackbird with more then 4 multispec jammers is not cap stable
a griffen with 4 multi spectracls is not cap stable
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Merin Ryskin
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Brodde Dim
Pointing out the changes that affects all ships doesnt does not change the balance in any way. Thats why I only list changes that directly improve or degrade specialized ships.
But the point is these changes do NOT only degrade or improve specialized ships. You're insane if you think only Gallente drone boat pilots ever did the scoop-relaunch trick.
Quote:
Some general changes affect 1 race a lot harder than the others, like tracking computer nerf, wich is a bigger problem for Amarr who are a lot more dependant on turrets than the others.
Every race has the same number of snipers and fits tracking computers with about the same frequency. My Vulture is just as nerfed by this as any Amarr ship, so counting the Amarr ship but not the Caldari ship is just absurd.
Quote:
Also some changes look like they will boost all races ships, but some of the ships get a lot better by than others. Like the gang link cap reduction. It will not matter much to gallente, minmatar and especially amarr command ships, since they will allways fit a cap injector anyways. But if you would passaivly tank a Nighhawk or Vulture, the cap drain from the gang links make a lot of difference.
Have you ever flown a command ship? I have, and I can tell you two things here:
1) All four races benefit from the cap reduction. Even when you're fitting a cap injector (and here's a hint: the Caldari command ships fit them too), lower cap drain from your gang mods means your charges last longer, and a borderline sustainable setup might become indefinitely sustainable.
2) Passive tanked Caldari command ships are far less common than you think, outside of missions. The Vulture is usually an un-tanked fleet sniper, and occasionally an active-tanked midrange railboat. The Nighthawk is pretty much useless with a passive tank in pvp, since it leaves you with minimal dps and horrible mobility. So even Nighthawks are best used with an active tank... and guess what, a cap injector! That is, if you could actually find a way to put a gang mod on a Nighthawk in the first place, with that horrible grid problem...
Quote:
And boosts to ships that are fine allready should count. In the same way as nerfs for ships that are all ready broken should count. Actually that should really give bonus points in the whining contest to Caldari. And maybe Amarr should consider sacking their coach.
It should count, but nowhere near as much as a boost or nerf that actually makes a difference. My Falcon is already sustainable until downtime. Adding an even bigger cap reduction provides absolutely nothing. The lack of slots prevents me from fitting any modules to use that extra cap even if I could think of one I actually wanted to use. This bonus just means my cap is stable at a somewhat higher percentage than it used to be, with no net result in the ship's effectiveness.
Now can you honestly tell me that this bonus deserves to be counted as +6 (you forgot the Kitsune and Griffin), while giving the Raven +33% more dps (up to the level of blaster ships) only counts as +1?
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
- Gallente gang mods nerfed (not changed at all)
Gallente gang mods will get their bonus for RSD and TD changed from 2% to 1.2% (that is a change).
Ok, point conceded. What the hell? Is this CCP's idea of a joke? Take the weakest of the four racial gang link types and nerf them even MORE??
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:00:00 -
[13]
Originally by: the thorn
a blackbird with more then 4 multispec jammers is not cap stable
a griffen with 4 multi spectracls is not cap stable
Don't use multispecs.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
the thorn
Tres Viri
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:07:00 -
[14]
Edited by: the thorn on 29/11/2007 08:06:54
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Don't use multispecs.
blackbird with 3 multispec jammers is not cap stable
blackbird with 4 racial jammers is not cap stable
(using the goodol All level V)
(nothing else, you dont have slots for cap mods anyway.)
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Phoenicia
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: the thorn
a blackbird with more then 4 multispec jammers is not cap stable
a griffen with 4 multi spectracls is not cap stable
Don't use multispecs.
That sort of logic is how teen pregnancies happen.
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Merin Ryskin
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: NoNah
The rokh has had a problem so far, it needed the tracking from tracking computers, however not the optimal increase as it's allready on the boat. Making it end up with absurd ranges around 300km effective. With this change, it will need the same amount of tracking modules as before, while all other ships need the double. Same goes for all other caldari railships, but in lesser extent.
Maybe true for the Rokh (at least when using spike ammo, which you shouldn't be doing 100% of the time), but it's definitely a nerf to the other railboats. It's a sniper nerf in general (especially added to the sensor booster nerf), and all four races have snipers. So counting it for just two races (Gallente? Ever hear of the fleet Megathron?) is just silly, it's a long range vs. short range nerf, not a racial nerf.
Quote:
And I do hope you realize not all ships rely as heavily on drones as Gallente and the amarr arbitrator-serie? Drones are a factional weapon of Gallente as much as rails are a weapon of caldari.
Of course I know that. But every ship with a drone bay is dependent on drones to some degree, and loses the benefit of easily repairing drones. Also notice that this penalty is somewhat offset by the increased drone bay size on the dedicated drone ships. While your Myrmidon can now carry spare drones to replace losses, my Vulture is stuck with only 5 Warrior IIs. We both lose instant scoop-relaunch, but YOU have the ability to simply drop a fresh wave while the old one recharges.
So if anything, it's LESS of a nerf to the dedicated drone ships!
Quote:
Comparing the fleet commandships, you'll notice a difference when it comes to cap use. The vulture can go with a strong passive tank, however suffers severe cap issues when it comes to gang modules. It's by far the most cap hungry fleet command around. Guess what?
The Vulture is almost never passive tanked. Its primary role is an un-tanked fleet sniper. Its secondary role is a mid-range railboat with an active tank (or passive buffer tank, but that doesn't care about cap regen). The only way to fit a passive tank on a Vulture is by giving up all mobility (no MWD, reduced ability to warp around) and firepower (5 heavy missiles instead of rails). If you're going to give up all combat power, just fit seven gang mods, cap recharge, and park the ship at a POS.
Quote:
So... because ships are capstable as it is, more cap is not a buff? Come on...
No, it's not. The ships can't even use the cap they already have, and have no room for fitting extra active modules. The only (very slight) difference is the ability to run a MWD for a bit longer, but that drains your cap so fast in either case that it makes almost no difference in the end.
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Raekone
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:18:00 -
[17]
Caldari aren't the only ones to use electronic warfare.
Amarr aren't the only ones to use tracking computers.
Gallente aren't the only ones to use drones.
L2P
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NoNah
Tenth Legion Holdings
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:27:00 -
[18]
Edited by: NoNah on 29/11/2007 08:31:31
Originally by: Raekone
Caldari aren't the only ones to use electronic warfare.
Amarr aren't the only ones to use tracking computers.
Gallente aren't the only ones to use drones.
L2P
Caldari are the ones using ECM(ECM != EW)
Amarr are the ones most affected by tracking computers and changes to them.
Gallente are the ones most affected by drones and changes to them.
Learn to comprehend.
And for Merin Ryskin, while that is true, gallente ships and even more so pilots are in general more aligned to drones. You're more likely to find a megathron pilot with millions in drones, than a amarr or caldari counterpart. And with the changes a droneship pilot is forced to specialize in a dronetype in a wider extent then before. Spares are far more important(especially if you rely on drone damage exclusively), which means less versatility, which means...
With that kind of logic, the torpbuff is a buff to the apoc aswell, seeing how it can fair well fitting 2 launchers. Not quite the case now is it?
Postcount: 307946
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Raekone
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:30:00 -
[19]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Raekone
Caldari aren't the only ones to use electronic warfare.
Amarr aren't the only ones to use tracking computers.
Gallente aren't the only ones to use drones.
L2P
Caldari are the ones using ECM(ECM != EW)
Amarr are the ones most affected by tracking computers and changes to them.
Gallente are the ones most affected by drones and changes to them.
Learn to comprehend.
Most affected, yes, but not the only ones. As I wrote. Look up the word balance somewhere. Oh and if you haven't met anything else than caldari ships using ECM you need to get out more 
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:34:00 -
[20]
You know, if you would count +1 for every Caldar ship whose agility gets boosted (all of them) you might be able to fabricate an even more absurd score for that race. Even now 8 out of your 12 points are ECM related... 
---
This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
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Brodde Dim
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
But the point is these changes do NOT only degrade or improve specialized ships. You're insane if you think only Gallente drone boat pilots ever did the scoop-relaunch trick.
Thats why I only count gallente ships that are specialized on drones. All the other ships with a drone bay gets evened out.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Every race has the same number of snipers and fits tracking computers with about the same frequency. My Vulture is just as nerfed by this as any Amarr ship, so counting the Amarr ship but not the Caldari ship is just absurd.
All of the amarr BS are turret boats. All of them need help with both range and tracking, and some of them have very few midslots available.2 of 3 of the Minmatar ones depend on guns. Gallente needs TCs for both range and tracking when sniping, but they both have enough midslots to fit them. And tracking is more important than range for a blaster setup.
Caldari has only 1 turret BS, and range is not a problem. So the TC change will actually be a boost here. And for the vulture, if it is an untanked fleet sniper it certainly have enough mids to fit 2 TC to get the effect of 1.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Have you ever flown a command ship? I have, and I can tell you two things here:
1) All four races benefit from the cap reduction. Even when you're fitting a cap injector (and here's a hint: the Caldari command ships fit them too), lower cap drain from your gang mods means your charges last longer, and a borderline sustainable setup might become indefinitely sustainable.
2) Passive tanked Caldari command ships are far less common than you think, outside of missions. The Vulture is usually an un-tanked fleet sniper, and occasionally an active-tanked midrange railboat. The Nighthawk is pretty much useless with a passive tank in pvp, since it leaves you with minimal dps and horrible mobility. So even Nighthawks are best used with an active tank... and guess what, a cap injector! That is, if you could actually find a way to put a gang mod on a Nighthawk in the first place, with that horrible grid problem...
Yes, I fly all except minmatar command ships atm. And yes, the cap reduction will offcourse help all of them. But the change to a passive tanked Damnation will be minimal. While it will be huge to a passive tanked Nighthawk. And a NH as bait or in a friendly system is pretty nice. So if the scoring would have decimals, I would only give 0.5+ to caldari for this boost then.
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Now can you honestly tell me that this bonus deserves to be counted as +6 (you forgot the Kitsune and Griffin), while giving the Raven +33% more dps (up to the level of blaster ships) only counts as +1?
Yes. I am not comparing the ships to eachother or trying to grade the changes differently and giving more points for a more usefull change. I am simply adding up the number of boosts and nerfs for each race.
Also, even if the boost isnt very beneficial for a pilot with a good setup and good skills, it will certainly help all the pilots who are not there yet. And it will be a lot more forgiving for creative fittings.
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Raekone
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:36:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Raekone on 29/11/2007 08:37:29
And besides I don't know what people are getting all hot and bothered about, you all know very well that you'll just go out and find some new uber setup/tactic in a matter of hours anyway. Changes come and people adapt, it's no biggie.
edit
I'm 100% specced for gallente ships/hybrids/drones btw
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InnerDrive
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Brodde Dim
Once again CCP balances the game with the precission of a blind man performing life saving surgery with a chainsaw, with guidance from a blood thirsty audience.
He's right though, this patch is a insane caldari buff.
Myself i only fly minmatar amarr and gallente, i never trained missile skills only gunskills.
When i looked at the new npc ships i got sick, the golem is going to be INSANE, a target painting bonus? and what does the gallente one get? a web bonus that applys to the amount of webbing but ur still only going to have 10km range on it? lol
How useless to have rails (range) fitted and u can only web stuff at 10km. Hows that going to help make u hit frigates at 12km with ur large guns? Allmost all frigates during missions orbit at more than 10km range and they web you to hell making getting closer to them pretty damn hard in a bs.... The golem just sits there spamming missiles at everything like a unstopable machine that dont even need to move to kill a entire complex.
The only usefull Marauder looks like its going to be the caldari one again the golem. Just like allmost all lvl 4 mission runners use ravens/caldari navy ravens.
And some more whining while im at it, WTF HAVE U DONE WITH CARRIERS. it was a ***** allready to get fuel for them, now you just removed 3/4 of the cargospace on them (the fuel ya coud put in indys inside the carrier is no longer possible), please give a carrier more space for fuel storage :(.
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Phoenicia
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Brodde Dim
Yes. I am not comparing the ships to eachother or trying to grade the changes differently and giving more points for a more usefull change.
So you're delivering a comparative list, split by race, but you're not comparing? Basically you're saying "I don't even care if the ships that got boosted needed the boost"?
Originally by: Brodde Dim
I am simply adding up the number of boosts and nerfs for each race.
Don't pretend to be unbiased:
Originally by: Brodde Dim in OP
To no suprise, its another victory for the veterans of the caldari whine squads, and this time it wasnt much of a fight.
The only part where you make a valid point (and that was random luck, cause you're really going for "zomg dont nerf my gallente ships!") is with the Amarr nerf. They're kinda weak already, and are in need of a boost, not a nerf.
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:49:00 -
[25]
Seriously, my caldari alt is dancing jigs over this stuff... but you can't pretend like this isn't over the top with Caldari boosts.
Liang
--
Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.29 08:54:00 -
[26]
Weep Additionally.
Sig removed for the third time, inappropriate content. Sig Locked. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com - Cortes |
Incantare
Caldari
Kernel of War
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.29 09:05:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Incantare on 29/11/2007 09:11:08
Some things that seem to have been lost in the above discussion: Amarr ships rely more on tracking enhancers than computers, TEs which remain unscripted. If anything it's a stealth Amarr sniper buff. Saying the Rokh doesn't need the extra range from TCs and can use them for pure tracking because it can already fire beyond locking range is narrow sighted. To have comparable damage to the other snipers at the same range, as is, the Rokh needs to fire lower range, higher damage ammo. Use tracking scripts and the Rokh loses raw damage.
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services
The Acquisition
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Posted - 2007.11.29 09:23:00 -
[28]
Ignoring the horrific inaccuracy and subjectivity that plagues your evaluation (if you can call it that!) of the impact the coming changes will have on various races/ships, I would like to point out that any negative changes to the performance of the Pilgrim and Curse at this point are fairly irrelevant, as those of us that were flying them for their efficiency jumped off that sinking ship a while ago. With a certain degree of accuracy, that statement can actually be applied to essentially any single Amarr ship, or indeed, the race in general. I actually have a suspicion that this is the primary reason Amarr have been such a comparatively low priority for CCP.
On the other hand, while years of Amarr specialization have made me a bitter man, I am glad for once we aren't the ones getting shafted worst in a major game altering patch. As such, I will now be partaking in consuming the sweet tears of your misery alongside the Caldari while buzzing around in my cap stable Crusader. |
Brodde Dim
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Posted - 2007.11.29 10:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Phoenicia
Originally by: Brodde Dim
Yes. I am not comparing the ships to eachother or trying to grade the changes differently and giving more points for a more usefull change.
So you're delivering a comparative list, split by race, but you're not comparing? Basically you're saying "I don't even care if the ships that got boosted needed the boost"?
Exactly. I am not saying that the Eos is getting nerfed way too much. And I am not saying that TD nerf is another tough blow to the allready hard nerfed amarr recons. (Im not denying it either).
What I am saying, is that forum whining apparantly makes CCP overcompensate all the time. Instead of fine tuning, they create new imbalances. And I am saying that, maybe because there are more caldari pilots than pilots from any other race, the caldari whine got attention from CCP again.
There are a lot of ships that need fixing. And I think there will be even more after the patch. But I kind of expect the forum whining to be as one sided as usuall even after the patch, and the next patch will probably mean another bunch of buffs for caldari ships that dont really need it, and another sad day for amarr. Getting closer and closer to Caldari online...
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N1fty
Amarr
Galactic Shipyards Inc
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.11.29 10:15:00 -
[30]
Energy neuts got a small cap need decrease. +1 to Amarr recons.
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Plaetean
Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2007.11.29 10:31:00 -
[31]
Stop bloody crying and just play the game.
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Tom Gunn
Caldari
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.11.29 10:35:00 -
[32]
The nerfs were to RSDs and a change to drones, and while it certainly affects Lolentte, it affects every other race too.
RSDs were that good that most pvp raven setups would field a rack of them and go with an armour tank setup.
Drones have needed looking at for a very long time. The very idea you could instantly heal drones shields was always more of an exploit than sensible.
As for the torp change, that really depends who you are talking too - i certainly welcome it, but as a pvper i don't speak for the majority of caldari who are pve pilots and far outnumber pvp players.
I'd wager they think its a bad change to their mission running setups.
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Augeas
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Posted - 2007.11.29 11:14:00 -
[33]
Quote:
The nerfs were to RSDs and a change to drones, and while it certainly affects Lolentte, it affects every other race too. RSDs were that good that most pvp raven setups would field a rack of them and go with an armour tank setup.
Absolutely - and a rack of RSD was a fine fit for the Drake also. Now the Drake and Raven will be seen more with HAM/torp gank fits and dodgy, EM-soft shield tanks. Resulting in a nice stealth boost for Amarr and lasers.
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Brodde Dim
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Posted - 2007.11.29 11:20:00 -
[34]
Yes, absolutely. Everyone can see the logic here. The nerf to tracking disruptors is really tough for Caldari, and a buff for Amarr. CCP should really get their act together and boost Caldari ships more.
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arbalesttom
Caldari
Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.29 11:26:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Phoenicia
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: the thorn
a blackbird with more then 4 multispec jammers is not cap stable
a griffen with 4 multi spectracls is not cap stable
Don't use multispecs.
That sort of logic is how teen pregnancies happen.
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Nice hamster! - Mindstar
Sorry, that hamster ate your sig.. - Random Guy123
Phear this sig! - Cortes |
August Personage
Caldari
Clarf Inc
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Posted - 2007.11.29 11:28:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Plaetean
Stop bloody crying and just play the game.
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.11.29 11:45:00 -
[37]
Well @OP: goal achieved
You pointed out an issue of a one sided approach by CCP and your post and the replies show that you are right. Well done.
If only it was not so sad to see such a biased approach by CCP...
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Oam Mkoll
Caldari
HUSARIA
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.29 11:56:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Brodde Dim
Edited by: Brodde Dim on 29/11/2007 10:31:33
Edited by: Brodde Dim on 29/11/2007 10:31:00
Fellow contenders, we can finally give you the preliminary score from the last forum whining contest.
To no suprise, its another victory for the veterans of the caldari whine squads, and this time it wasnt much of a fight.
While we are still counting points, the results so far are:
Caldari = +14
Minmatar = 0
Amarr = -5
Gallente = -15
And while the complete list of wins and losses would be to long for one post, I will just point out the ones that actually does matter to the final score. (Only nerfs/boosts where the ships role (bonuses) are affected, and general changes that affect most ships).
Gallente:
Eos:
- drone bay
- gun slots
- drone bandwidth
- scoop drone healing
- Gang link, info superiority nerfed
Myrmid:
- drone bandwidth
- scoop drone healing
Ishkur
- drone bandwidth
- scoop drone healing
Dominix
- scoop drone healing
Vexor
- scoop drone healing
Ishtar
- scoop drone healing
Celestis
- RSD efficiency
Arazu
- RSD efficiency
Lachesis
- Lachesis RSD efficiency
Amarr
- Tracking computers nerfed
Curse:
- TD efficiency
- drone bandwidth
- scoop drone healing
+ neut cap use
Pilgrim
- TD efficiency
- drone bandwidth
- scoop drone healing
+ neut cap use
Minmatar:
- Tracking computers nerfed
Typhoon:
+ Torp damage
Caldari:
+ ship agility to most ships
Raven:
+ Torp damage
Scorpion:
+ ECM efficiency
+ ECM cap use
Falcon:
+ ECM efficiency
+ ECM cap use
Rook:
+ ECM efficiency
+ ECM cap use
Blackbird:
+ ECM efficiency
+ ECM cap use
Griffin
+ ECM efficiency
+ ECM cap use
Nighthawk
+ Gang link cap use reduced (boost for passive tank)
Vulture
+ Gang link cap use reduced (boost for passive tank)
Once again CCP balances the game with the precission of a blind man performing life saving surgery with a chainsaw, with guidance from a blood thirsty audience.
The question now is; Will the up and coming Gallente whining team take the challenge and try to recover? They have made a huge improvement and shown strong will the last couple of weeks. And will Amarr finally give up?
Is this post a whine? Offcourse it is. If one thing is to be learned from this next patch, it is that whining works. More forum whining will give you good stuff. And for those who dont want to whine? Tough luck.
Ok, Caldari whiners, show me your flaming skills.
*Edit: Added Neut cap use boost, and boosts for griffin.
You sir are a baboon. While some of the nerfs are indeed ridiculous (like TD nerf and to a point SD nerf), this has nothing at all to do with Caldari Online. I agree, SD nerf affects Gallente recons badly but that doesn't mean that their Caldari counterparts just became powerful. They are simply better SUPPORT ships. The falcon still can't kill a light scout drone, the Rook set up for EW (the only sensible fitting) is much weaker than a Caracal.
The agility nerf doesn't change the fact that Caldari ships are still heavy, slow and maneuverable like a pregnant stegosaurus. ECM is still useless on non-dedicated ships.
The ONLY actual PvP boost for Caldari is the torpedo change. This introduces the ONLY heavy damage dealer for the race. Raven will be the only BS viable for killing stuff. The Rokh has range but no damage, the Scorp is a support ship. What does your oh-so-nerfed Gallente BS shop have left? Megathron, now the best fleet sniper in EvE, Hyperion with respectable DPS and a huge tank and the Domi, still powerful and very flexible.
This post is nothing more than a whine about the nerf that takes I-WIN ships from you and turns them into something balanced. Cry more and stop pretending you care about the minor and well-deserved tweaks to Caldari.
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I am violence boat
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Stuart Price
Caldari
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2007.11.29 13:05:00 -
[39]
I dunno, Rokh with blasters seems to do enough dps for my needs.
"I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.29 13:09:00 -
[40]
Caldari got candy and you didn't.
Last few times we went shopping Caldari didn't get any candy.
Maybe next time you'll get some.
To be honest there's not all that much to see here, ECM got a buff, and we got our agility boosted. As mentioned you've managed to heavily skew those numbers and not even managed to do so with any degree of subtlety.
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EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
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Monticore D'Muertos
Caldari
United Society Starfleet
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Posted - 2007.11.29 13:23:00 -
[41]
minmitar get the sabre nerf (
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Juha85
Beasts of Burden
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.11.29 13:29:00 -
[42]
Ok to summarize the upcoming patch:
Eos gets brought back in line with the other fleet commands - check
Myrmidon gets brought back in line with the other tier2 bc's - check
Remote sensor damp gets it's I-WIN fit on all ships role removed - check
The exploit of instantly healing drones gets removed - check
Extremely slow and heavy caldari ships get just a bit more agile - check
Caldari gets one BS able to deal damage - check
Falcon might actually be worth flying - check
Ok. The only thing that isn't justified is the heavy hit on the gallente recons. We will see but they will most likely get their bonus boosted in future patches. And perhaps they will introduce a low slot module to boost damp effectivenes.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.29 13:54:00 -
[43]
Originally by: N1fty
Energy neuts got a small cap need decrease. +1 to Amarr recons.
+1 to caldari. i fit them on my raven to:)
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.29 14:10:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Juha85
Ok to summarize the upcoming patch:
Eos gets brought back in line with the other fleet commands - check
False. After the patch, Eos is not just the worst fleet command (which would be ok, one of them has to be), but point-and-laugh worst one.
Originally by: Juha85
Myrmidon gets brought back in line with the other tier2 bc's - check
Might be. It will probably be the worst one out there, but that's ok.
Originally by: Juha85
Remote sensor damp gets it's I-WIN fit on all ships role removed - check
The exploit of instantly healing drones gets removed - check
Agreed with these.
Originally by: Juha85
Extremely slow and heavy caldari ships get just a bit more agile - check
Er. If the numbers published by someone are correct, they are now as agile as the most agile corresponding Minmatar ships. This is a bit much.
Originally by: Juha85
Caldari gets one BS able to deal damage - check
... and how. I worry about Megathron and Tempest getting marginalised by Raven. Too much of a boost.
On the other hand, the indirect boosts to lasers (more shield tankers) and target painters (that torps require) are good things.
Originally by: Juha85
Falcon might actually be worth flying - check
... might? Might?!? That thing is a stealthy force multiplier like no other.
Originally by: Juha85
Ok. The only thing that isn't justified is the heavy hit on the gallente recons. We will see but they will most likely get their bonus boosted in future patches. And perhaps they will introduce a low slot module to boost damp effectivenes.
Yes. Damps being useless also in specced ships = bad.
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Gradient forum |
The Anointed
Caldari
Spartan Industries
Triumvirate.
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