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Voth Syr
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Posted - 2007.11.30 02:18:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Voth Syr on 30/11/2007 02:20:42 Has this has been suggested before?
I find it odd that the floating cargo rigs, asteriods, bunkers, every object in space does not stop weapons fire. Weapons fire just passes through as if the objects were not there.
I personally think it would add a whole new dimension of reality and flight strategy if ships could fly into an asteroid belt for cover.
Something for the devs to consider? Or maybe it will slow the servers to a crawl to implement this for an MMO as compared to the fixed number of players in say an FPS?
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Helen Hunts
Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries
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Posted - 2007.11.30 04:20:00 -
[2]
Line of Sight (LoS) calculations take up a substantial amount of CPU time. (Figure about 4x the current load) In a small engagement with minimal scenery, this is not really noticable. A small gang in an asteroid belt might start noticing the effects. A busy system, or a fleet engagement.....can you say 'node death'? (or even worse, praying for node death as a means of escape)
If EVE were sharded/instanced, LoS would still be a load, but could be managed a *little* easier. Shards and instances are not what EVE is all about though. (And I'd like to keep it that way) _______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
Voth Syr
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Posted - 2007.11.30 05:55:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Voth Syr on 30/11/2007 05:57:05
Originally by: Helen Hunts Line of Sight (LoS) calculations take up a substantial amount of CPU time.
If EVE were sharded/instanced, LoS would still be a load, but could be managed a *little* easier. Shards and instances are not what EVE is all about though. (And I'd like to keep it that way)
Yeah I figured it would be a technical load issue that they couldn't handle.
You know I really wonder abt the Sharded thing.
Coz although we are all in the same universe, each solar system is still isolated from others. Compared to a continuous terrain MMO, EVE already has it pretty easy in terms of load issues in this sense right?
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Helen Hunts
Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries
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Posted - 2007.11.30 06:15:00 -
[4]
Currently, several solar systems can run on a single node of our beloved server cluster. Under times of high load, a solar system can monopolize a full node and borrow resources from other less-loaded nodes. This is still all one single cluster. (non-sharded, non-instanced)
Sharding is where the entire 'world' is running on multiple servers that do not interact with each other. (See also: WoW)
Instancing is where a player, or group of players enter an area that exists just for those who are in that place. An Instance does not exist for anyone outside the Instance, even though they may be on the same server. (Guild Wars, anytime you leave a city)
EVE is set up with no sharding, and no instancing. Anyone can go pretty much anywhere and interact with just about anything. The closest thing anyone's come up with to creating an Instance are the "Deep Safe Spots" which were made by warping directly away from the sun from an outer planet to get many AU's away from any spot where one could deploy probes. The mechanic that allowed warping without a solid destination is now disabled, so the only other way to do it would be running a MWD for weeks on end. (Get far enough out, and there's almost no way for anyone to find you.) _______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
Voth Syr
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Posted - 2007.11.30 13:24:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Helen Hunts Currently, several solar systems can run on a single node of our beloved server cluster. Under times of high load, a solar system can monopolize a full node and borrow resources from other less-loaded nodes. This is still all one single cluster. (non-sharded, non-instanced)
I guess it boils down to the fact that LOS calculation has to be handled on the server-side otherwise it would be hackable. I wonder if FPS like BF2142 does LOS client-side, relying on PunkBuster to handle the hacking problem?
Nonetheless, it would be really great to have obstacles blocking LOS. Imagine a scenario like... ducking behind an asteroid micro-colony to take cover from enemy fire forcing the enemy to flank while you make critical repairs to your beaten down armour. The enemy makes the mistake of flanking too close and you hit the afterburners, emerging on the other side, blasters on alpha, finishing off the enemy within seconds.
Damn! It'll add so much more dimension to the current mostly slugfest type combat now.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.11.30 13:58:00 -
[6]
Exploitable like hell.
Problems if concord doesn't treat accidental shots as agression:
Example:
Me and my corp-mate go to Jita in, say, two Hurricanes. We stand on opposite sides of undock ramp, load up on Hail M and HAMs and start pounding each other with just enough range between us that we regularly miss each other but hit people in between just nicely for a nice 700 DPS, murdering haulers witin seconds. Friend with a industrial just scoops the fat loots. In half a hour, we're multi-billionaires.
Ok, so let's say concord kills you if you do that:
Example #2: Me and my corpmate are having troubles in a, say, empire war (lol, with -9.7 sec status, but you get the idea). We're being station camped, so what do we do? I get a MWD-ing stabber, undock, and taunt them a bit, and he gets a noobship alt. So, they open up on me,and the noobship alt goes in the middle of the fire. He gets killed and podded, and concord kills them all and gives them a sec hit while my dear corpmate is out in a industrial scooping up the loot.
Either way you do it, it's exploitable.
Rifters!
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Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
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Posted - 2007.11.30 14:07:00 -
[7]
Easy to solve - guns just stop shooting when there's risk of hitting other objects. Do you loose DPS in a blob or between roids, but you never hit anything you don't want to hit.
Still, server CPU problem is deadly.
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punnani
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Posted - 2007.11.30 17:06:00 -
[8]
if implemented it would add a whole new dimension to PVP and not just blob and press f1-f8
/signed
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Quesa Ketahl
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Posted - 2007.11.30 18:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: punnani if implemented it would add a whole new dimension to PVP and not just blob and press f1-f8
/signed
Hardly the case.
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Ishii kun
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Posted - 2007.11.30 18:51:00 -
[10]
that sounds great. you could even go as far as if they duck behind a large enough object you loose lock, making it so the warp scrams turn off, making just enough time for a getaway
/signed
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Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
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Posted - 2007.12.01 11:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Voth Syr Edited by: Voth Syr on 30/11/2007 02:20:42 Has this has been suggested before?
It's actually be implemented before, and removed. Missiles used to work that way.
Way too much lag for what it's worth.
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Thenoran
Caldari Frontier Economics Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.12.01 12:56:00 -
[12]
Try attacking or defending yourself in an asteroid belt or a deadspace with alot of objects, sometimes a mission will even include a rat being in a hollowed out asteroid. Would be interesting to try but its not worth all the downsides.
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EadTaes
Minmatar Veni Vidi Vici. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.01 15:32:00 -
[13]
Yes it has been suggested before and like other people said it would add a lot of load. But we are getting a new graphic engine that will boost graphics up and suposedly run smother then the old one. If that does happen maybe the next big patch could be about a new physic engine that would fix our clunky physics and make it possible to have LoS for weapons and sensors. 0.0 Policing, Econnomic Control & NPC Agents |
James Duar
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.01 15:43:00 -
[14]
Over the distances most engagements take in EVE, there's very little chance of any ship hitting any other ship that it's not specifically trying to shoot at.
The only thing LoS would do is make terribly limited manoeuvering options get people killed or obfuscate their ability to shoot (i.e. obviously you would warp in in an all points sphere around your target, not a 2.5km ball of ships).
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EadTaes
Minmatar Veni Vidi Vici. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.03 02:02:00 -
[15]
It would need and make formation flying a need to when i keep thinking about it. 0.0 Policing, Econnomic Control & NPC Agents |
James Duar
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.03 02:52:00 -
[16]
It wouldn't though. The best way to attack any target would be to warp all your ships in in a hemi-sphere around the point you intend to shoot at.
The only reason it would be a problem is because EVE does not allow you to do this.
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oriani
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Posted - 2007.12.03 02:56:00 -
[17]
I disagree I think that having collision detection would be great. Not having it is almost as insane as the insane range limitations, why do small railguns have a range of 15 km in real life it would keep going and going and going unless it flies into a star, planet, moon or something else that altered its trajectory. I am saying a small rail should be able to shoot as farther than a large. The only range problems should be with the computer calculations but in a world of nanoprocessors that shouldnt be a problem (that world being eve).
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Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
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Posted - 2007.12.03 09:46:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 03/12/2007 09:49:38
Originally by: EadTaes Yes it has been suggested before and like other people said it would add a lot of load. But we are getting a new graphic engine that will boost graphics up and suposedly run smother then the old one. If that does happen maybe the next big patch could be about a new physic engine that would fix our clunky physics and make it possible to have LoS for weapons and sensors.
Graphics are on client side. Physics must be on server side. While client can be improved with relative ease, server side speed problems are really serious. CCP should and would (probably) not put anything CPU-heavy on servers before they optimize them enough to run big battles smoothly. Imagine player community reaction if CCP suddenly announced "we improved physics engine. Now you don't need 800 ships to cause node death, 50 will be enough, enjoy!"
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Russel Forbes
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Posted - 2007.12.03 11:44:00 -
[19]
Collision detection for weapons should be only for static objects that nobody can destroy like asteroids or garbage I think, this way we can hide behind an asteroid field, but there will not be the problem to shoot down another player when firing to someone...
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Voth Syr
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Posted - 2007.12.03 14:37:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Voth Syr on 03/12/2007 14:40:14 Edited by: Voth Syr on 03/12/2007 14:37:54
Originally by: Ishii kun that sounds great. you could even go as far as if they duck behind a large enough object you loose lock, making it so the warp scrams turn off, making just enough time for a getaway.
"...23% armour, 10km more... my active armour is almost gone... down to hull and its gameover. C'mon c'mon C'MON! 7km to the bloody station wreck. If I can swing behind it, his scrams will break lock and I'll have a few seconds to hit warp. 12% armour... 4km... should've fitted an extra Stab... 3km... c'mon..."
Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope CCP finds some way to fit in LOS in the future. Coz I feel space combat in EVE is very unrealistic without it. Afterall, the processors have been getting faster all these years no?
Maybe for a start do it with just lasers, hybrids and scrams.
Missiles, well... if they can't then I guess I could PRETEND that they have smart guidance AI and had "flown around" the asteroid.
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Lothros Andastar
Gallente Imperium Forces United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.03 15:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Voth Syr Afterall, the processors have been getting faster all these years no?
Ok, youve just showne you have no Idea.
If you want this either a) Pay for it yourself or b) stfu
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait i'm using vista 3bit business and i have no problems at all with most things really, including Eve.
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Russel Forbes
Amarr Phantom Positronique Industries L ecume QuantiQue
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Posted - 2007.12.03 15:57:00 -
[22]
I'm unsure how hard it is for CCP for doing this. It is just a matter of server overload... so they can perhaps put more powerful servers :) It is not a client side problem, and not a lag issue at all, because about weapons beeing blocked by an object, the server just have to stop the calcs and to send a "you miss" message to the player, as it already does when we miss the target...
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Dinakheron
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Posted - 2007.12.03 19:01:00 -
[23]
Actually LOS check is not that hard for hardware if you dont include physics to it. Example most games graphics already do it to determine do they draw objects that are behind others (done in client side tought).
Servers already calculate hit % and damage which take more calculation than simple LOS check would (still, it would be one more calculation to servers). |
Russel Forbes
Amarr Phantom Positronique Industries L ecume QuantiQue
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Posted - 2007.12.04 11:52:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dinakheron Servers already calculate hit % and damage which take more calculation than simple LOS check would (still, it would be one more calculation to servers).
One more, perhaps not always... Example: the server could calc the LOS FIRST, and then if the fire is blocked, the server doesn't have to calc the % hit and dmg thing...
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Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
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Posted - 2007.12.04 15:16:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 04/12/2007 15:20:38 Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 04/12/2007 15:17:17 Simply put; Current hit calculations;
Take position and speed vector of target Take position and speed vector of shooter Calculate distance and compare to shooters range Calculate tranversal velocity and compare to shooters damage.
With collision detection;
Take position and speed vector of target Take position and speed vector of shooter Take position and 3D bump model of asteroid #1 in grid and check if it crosses the straight line between them. If no, continue. Take position and 3D bump model of asteroid #2 in grid and check if it crosses the straight line between them. If no, continue. Take position and 3D bump model of asteroid #3 in grid and check if it crosses the straight line between them. If no, continue. ... Take position and 3D bump model of ship #128 in grid and check if it crosses the straight line between them. If no, continue. ... Take position and 3D bump model of drone #348 in grid and check if it crosses the straight line between them. If no, continue. ...
...
...
Hooray, after 3225 comparitions of all 3D objects in grid with a LOS vector we know we got clear line of sight! Calculate distance and compare to shooters range Calculate tranversal velocity and compare to shooters damage.
Now, lets get to next TachyonLaserShoots event of the 6000 shot events in this second of fleet battle.
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Yea yea, I know its optimised to logatythmic weight, but still.
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Voth Syr
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Posted - 2007.12.04 16:19:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
Hooray, after 3225 comparitions of all 3D objects in grid with a LOS vector we know we got clear line of sight!
I see your point, but Dinakheron made a good point 2 posts back. Most of it is already in the calculation for deciding whether you draw the ship or not if it's behind the asteroid. Just guessing.
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Grim Vandal
Caldari Burn Proof
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Posted - 2007.12.06 04:35:00 -
[27]
very important to me, bump now that trinity is live, the devs need something to do anyway.
Greetings Grim |
Helen Hunts
Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.06 04:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Voth Syr
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
Hooray, after 3225 comparitions of all 3D objects in grid with a LOS vector we know we got clear line of sight!
I see your point, but Dinakheron made a good point 2 posts back. Most of it is already in the calculation for deciding whether you draw the ship or not if it's behind the asteroid. Just guessing.
Drawing the ship is a graphics thing. Graphics are on the CLIENT side, not the server. LOS calculations for weapons would have to be on the SERVER side. The game runs on the SERVER. All calculations that matter happen on the SERVER. Graphics are on our end of things so we can see what's going on. The Client calculations don't change what the Server says is going on. _______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
Dinakheron
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Posted - 2007.12.06 09:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 04/12/2007 15:20:38 Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 04/12/2007 15:17:17 Simply put; Current hit calculations;
Take position and speed vector of target Take position and speed vector of shooter Calculate distance and compare to shooters range Calculate tranversal velocity and compare to shooters damage.
With collision detection;
Take position and speed vector of target Take position and speed vector of shooter Take position and 3D bump model of asteroid #1 in grid and check if it crosses the straight line between them. If no, continue. Take position and 3D bump model of asteroid #2 in grid and check if it crosses the straight line between them. If no, continue. Take position and 3D bump model of asteroid #3 in grid and check if it crosses the straight line between them. If no, continue. ... Take position and 3D bump model of ship #128 in grid and check if it crosses the straight line between them. If no, continue. ... Take position and 3D bump model of drone #348 in grid and check if it crosses the straight line between them. If no, continue. ...
...
...
Hooray, after 3225 comparitions of all 3D objects in grid with a LOS vector we know we got clear line of sight! Calculate distance and compare to shooters range Calculate tranversal velocity and compare to shooters damage.
Now, lets get to next TachyonLaserShoots event of the 6000 shot events in this second of fleet battle.
----
Yea yea, I know its optimised to logatythmic weight, but still.
Except that your example is not valid. You just need to make 1 line to target and if it connects anything except its target you have no LOS. Easy calculation to do.
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Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
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Posted - 2007.12.06 09:19:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 06/12/2007 09:21:13 Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 06/12/2007 09:19:53 Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 06/12/2007 09:19:23 What does it mean "make one line"? What does it mean "connect anything"? Lets try with a simplified example in 2D:
example
Data in example: Apoc [133,314] Taranis [372,213] Roid [[175,155],[164,193],[196,190]] Roid [[305,150],[281,191],[325,199]] Roid [[359,270],[412,268],[330,321]] Roid [[311,343],[258,370],[331,412]]
Now, show me exactly how with "checking if only one line connects anything" You check if this Apoc can hit this Taranis without checking all 4 rois.
AFAIK, this can be a log(N^2) algorith at best.
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