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M Clarion
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Posted - 2007.12.04 04:28:00 -
[1]
Edited by: M Clarion on 04/12/2007 04:28:45 "When you clicked buy on that one on the market, you effectively placed a buy order for one ITEM at A isk. the buy order was immediately filled by one of ours, which was on the market for B isk."
Story: I accidentally paid for a ship that was WELL above market average, and contacted the "other party's" CEO and this is what he told me. He is saying he did not create a buy order way above market average, but that they had one listed for much lower that filled my buy order....
When I look at my market transactions, I see the "other party" recieved my fat isk...
I NEVER placed a buy order, I clicked on a ship that was for sale in the market and accidentally bought it.
I am not seeking my money back, but simply wanting to know if I should believe this guy's load...
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.04 04:34:00 -
[2]
Yay, another thread about this.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Treelox
Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2007.12.04 04:47:00 -
[3]
Working as intended, dont be such a careless fool with your isk next time. :)
And thank you for providing us with this required daily repeat of this topic, its great to have gotten it out of the way so early in the day. --
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M Clarion
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Posted - 2007.12.04 04:58:00 -
[4]
Edited by: M Clarion on 04/12/2007 04:59:06 Wow! Thanks for the constructive feedback guys, that was quite helpful!
I am simply curious if this is possible when I KNOW I did not place a buy order, instead I purchased a listing in the Sellers column.
I would just like to know if this person is taking advantage of me trying to make me think I placed a buy order...
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Jolaqa Voruska
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2007.12.04 05:14:00 -
[5]
Lowest priced item sells, for whatever price you pay for it. Here's how it might have happened, for example: 2 ships listed, one at 4M (other party), one at 12M (overpricing guy). You accidentally select the 12M one, right click on it, and buy it. You actually buy "Other party" ship that was selling for 4 M, but you pay 12M for it. So, "other party" got your isk, but he got 12M, instead of the 4M it was listed for. Hope that makes sense; If I don't have it 100% correct, I'm sure someone will correct me.
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Fader Bane
Black Knight Buccaneers Daisho Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.04 05:19:00 -
[6]
can't really see how the seller is at fault here. You preformed all the actions resulting in this accident. ________________________________________
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M Clarion
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Posted - 2007.12.04 05:50:00 -
[7]
Oh I completely agree it was my fault, I am in no way blaming the other party for my clicking buy.
I do not understand how this works if I did not place a buy order (to my knowledge).
If I select a ship and right click buy this and then click buy without changing anything, am I placing a buy order? or simply purchasing someone's sell order?
Originally by: Jolaqa Voruska Lowest priced item sells, for whatever price you pay for it. Here's how it might have happened, for example: 2 ships listed, one at 4M (other party), one at 12M (overpricing guy). You accidentally select the 12M one, right click on it, and buy it. You actually buy "Other party" ship that was selling for 4 M, but you pay 12M for it. So, "other party" got your isk, but he got 12M, instead of the 4M it was listed for. Hope that makes sense; If I don't have it 100% correct, I'm sure someone will correct me.
How does this work? Lets say the 4m seller is seller A and the 12m seller is seller B How can seller B create the sell order for 12m isk without me purchasing seller B's ship? How could I have purchased seller A's ship if I purchased seller B's sell order? Can seller B create a sell order without having any item backing it?
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.04 05:56:00 -
[8]
Originally by: M Clarion I do not understand how this works if I did not place a buy order (to my knowledge).
If I select a ship and right click buy this and then click buy without changing anything, am I placing a buy order? or simply purchasing someone's sell order?
You are creating a buy order. EVE uses a broker based system, not a shop based system.
When you click buy you tell your agent to offer that price to buy that item. If someone else is selling it for far less you will buy it from that person, but you will pay them the amount you told your broker to offer.
This is the most discussed topic on these forums, we get at least one post a week on average. I think we've had 3 this week now. We get a bit testy when people ask this over and over and over.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
M Clarion
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Posted - 2007.12.04 06:09:00 -
[9]
Edited by: M Clarion on 04/12/2007 06:11:28 Edited by: M Clarion on 04/12/2007 06:10:30 Edited by: M Clarion on 04/12/2007 06:09:38 Thank you so much for your patience.
I always like to help new players with questions, and I would be happy to pass this knowledge on to other new players so you don't have to
Originally by: Shadarle
When you click buy you tell your agent to offer that price to buy that item. If someone else is selling it for far less you will buy it from that person, but you will pay them the amount you told your broker to offer.
So you're telling me that nobody gets paid except for the person listing the item at the lowest price?
Lets say a Raven is for sale for 95 million isk(seller A), and I want to sell my Raven and put up a sell order for 100 million isk. If someone right clicks on my sell order and clicks buy seller A gets 100 million isk? and not me?
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Durente Galaica
Amarr Fortunate Few
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Posted - 2007.12.04 06:11:00 -
[10]
True.
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M Clarion
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Posted - 2007.12.04 06:14:00 -
[11]
Holy crapoly, I never knew that.... That is soooooo interesting
Thanks for your help!
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M Clarion
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Posted - 2007.12.04 06:44:00 -
[12]
Why doesnt somebody sticky this important market detail?
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Lake
The Praxis Initiative
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Posted - 2007.12.04 07:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: M Clarion Why doesnt somebody sticky this important market detail?
But would you have found the info in a sticky? How about the other 3 people this week?
Though the real question is: Why isn't in EVE's contextual Help?
Oh no wait it's: Why has EVE gone so frakkin' long without contextual help?
Wait, I got it this time: Isn't it great EVE is getting contextual help in a few days?!
-- Lake, Founder of The Praxis Initiative |
NeoTrade
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Posted - 2007.12.04 09:08:00 -
[14]
Edited by: NeoTrade on 04/12/2007 09:09:34
Quote: When you click buy you tell your agent to offer that price to buy that item. If someone else is selling it for far less you will buy it from that person, but you will pay them the amount you told your broker to offer.
I assume it takes "station" into account? So it will buy the cheapest item at that particular station?
What about if Person A is selling 5 units of Item A at 100 isk, and Person B is selling 100 units of Item A at 105isk. If I try and buy 50 units, does it buy 5 from Person A, and 45 from Person B? Or just 50 from Person B?
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Ryuga VonRhaiden
Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.
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Posted - 2007.12.04 10:12:00 -
[15]
holy crap...
that's the way the .01 iskers rob us honest traders. and even if i REFUSE to buy from them (cause i always buy the item with well rounded price), i'm still paying them, and i'm paying them EVEN THAT 0.1 ISK MORE....
this is madness...!!
Do not try and find the signature... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no signature. |
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2007.12.04 10:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: NeoTrade I assume it takes "station" into account? So it will buy the cheapest item at that particular station?
Depends if you have set the range of your buy order to station or not (right-click->buy defaults to station range). The location is considered a requirement of the order, so the market will only consider orders that meet the location criteria when deciding which sell order to use to fill your buy order. So if you put the range as station, it will only consider orders at that station. If you put it as region, it will consider all orders in that region. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.12.04 11:26:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ryuga VonRhaiden holy crap...
that's the way the .01 iskers rob us honest traders. and even if i REFUSE to buy from them (cause i always buy the item with well rounded price), i'm still paying them, and i'm paying them EVEN THAT 0.1 ISK MORE....
this is madness...!!
lol, I find people who do this very funny... mostly because I used to be one of them before I realised that it was ********.
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.04 13:51:00 -
[18]
Edited by: SencneS on 04/12/2007 13:51:20 You would think after the countless posts about this CCP would think of a better system. To be honest for a year now I've been saying the following.
When I right click on an Item and select "BUY" I want to BUY that item from THAT seller regardless of who has anything cheaper.
List all the Sellers. We all know Market is just as much PVP as anything else in EVE yet the lack of Selected buying means you could probably be filling your enemy's pockets. It also allows for the ultimate Market PVP move, offer subsidize for continued patronage. If they allowed this, I'm sure someone would setup an affiliate site where you sign up, enter your API key and get some ISK back for using their affiliate.
It's simple enough, if I don't want to buy something from someone who podded suicide ganked me in highsec space I shouldn't have to. I want the choice.
The only people that have anything to complain about choice over the current broker system are people who are exploiting the faults in the system and those who prey on the unknowing newbie.
Amarr for Life |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.12.04 14:01:00 -
[19]
Although I agree with and understand the mechanics of the system, there's ONE thing I don't understand and has never ceased to confuse me.
Char A has 10000 widgets for sale at 10. Char B has 50000 widgets for sale at 15. Char C has 5000 widgets for sale at 20.
The prices arent really important, but say I have to buy 55000. I can:
A) create a buy order for 55000 at 15. Result? I get 55000 at 15, 10000 from A and 45000 from B.
B) I can right click Char B's order and get a buy order window too. Except I can't enter a quantity greater than 50000, which doesn't make any sense because I click buy, get 5000 of char A's and 45000 of char B's, then need to right click char B's remaining 5000 to get the rest.
While I semi understand the sentiment here, I believe it's ridiculously confusing to people who dont understand the market system when they right click on an order and *can't* list more than what's there. This leads to a false assumption that you can't buy more because you're buying from *THAT* person, and they don't have more than that in stock.
Improve Market Competition! |
Ter Fordal
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Posted - 2007.12.04 14:44:00 -
[20]
Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 04/12/2007 13:51:20 You would think after the countless posts about this CCP would think of a better system. To be honest for a year now I've been saying the following.
When I right click on an Item and select "BUY" I want to BUY that item from THAT seller regardless of who has anything cheaper.
List all the Sellers. We all know Market is just as much PVP as anything else in EVE yet the lack of Selected buying means you could probably be filling your enemy's pockets. It also allows for the ultimate Market PVP move, offer subsidize for continued patronage. If they allowed this, I'm sure someone would setup an affiliate site where you sign up, enter your API key and get some ISK back for using their affiliate.
No I really dont agree but accept it is a little confusing at first. This is by design I think. Anonymous markets are a very healthy thing and encourage competition, just as in the real world. I think the fact you can see the seller after you have bought something is a half way house for market pvpers who really want info on who is shifting a particular item. Imagine the ease someone with 100B could bankrupt a market noob or grief play them if they could see all their orders on the market. If you want to offer 'special relationships' with valued customers you can station trade or set up contracts.
Originally by: SencneS
It's simple enough, if I don't want to buy something from someone who podded suicide ganked me in highsec space I shouldn't have to. I want the choice.
You didn't buy an item that got suicide ganked back from the same person did you? This is why anonymous markets and the lowest price brokerage system add to the evilness of the game.
Originally by: SencneS
The only people that have anything to complain about choice over the current broker system are people who are exploiting the faults in the system and those who prey on the unknowing newbie.
No, I am not either.
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.04 15:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ter Fordal Imagine the ease someone with 100B could bankrupt a market noob or grief play them if they could see all their orders on the market. If you want to offer 'special relationships' with valued customers you can station trade or set up contracts.
That's my point, you can bankrupt anyone if you have 100bil, just buy one of each item and use your API to filter out unwanted sellers. Don't mistake what might happen with what does happen right now. The only difference is, you (assumption) I, and others that know the system know how to use it for exactly that means. We all know the value of being the sole provider for an item.
The market newbie doesn't, and a market newbie can't anyway, they probably don't have hundreds of billions let alone hundreds of millions to attempt such a thing. But if the did have the ISK they don't know how and people like you and I are just taking advantage of them.
Originally by: Ter Fordal You didn't buy an item that got suicide ganked back from the same person did you? This is why anonymous markets and the lowest price brokerage system add to the evilness of the game.
If you get suicide ganked for an item, and the pirate doesn't know the value of it, and places it on the market for well below value, you see it, count your lucky stars you found a cheap replacement, only to find out it was the pirate that ganked you and stole it from you in the first place. If you want to about evilness and griefing this is a double hit.
You paid for it, died because someone thinks a suicide tactic if legitimate source if income (Even though it's an effective ISK sink, and actually loses ISK in EVE) then you PAY the pirate for essentially killing you.
Pirating aside if I had the choice I wouldn't reward the person for killing me.
Amarr for Life |
Eveskot
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Posted - 2007.12.04 16:13:00 -
[22]
Oooh, so that's how that happened.
Some guy was trying to transfer money to an alt by buying items from himself, and bought one from me instead. He bought a Basic Miner for three million.
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Calgorac
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.12.04 16:40:00 -
[23]
If you had read some of the threads listed in the "essential" threads sticky
you would not have made this post since your answer can be found easily in those threads.
anyway,
good luck with your future trading.
Latest News |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.04 16:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: SencneS If you get suicide ganked for an item, and the pirate doesn't know the value of it, and places it on the market for well below value, you see it, count your lucky stars you found a cheap replacement, only to find out it was the pirate that ganked you and stole it from you in the first place. If you want to about evilness and griefing this is a double hit.
You paid for it, died because someone thinks a suicide tactic if legitimate source if income (Even though it's an effective ISK sink, and actually loses ISK in EVE) then you PAY the pirate for essentially killing you.
Pirating aside if I had the choice I wouldn't reward the person for killing me.
Umm... this is a backwards way of looking at things.
If you happen to be lucky enough to find the very pirate who killed you, selling the very item he got from you under cost... then BUY IT! It means you've got it back for less money than it would cost you to buy it from someone else. You've just made a bit of profit off buying that item cheaper than it should be.
You cannot look at past events and use them as a source of your value equation. An item is worth X, it doesn't matter what it was worth 7 days ago, it doesn't matter if someone killed you to get it, it doesn't matter if you sold it for free by mistake. Everything is worth what it is worth. Once you lose an item it is no longer your item. If you then see another one of those for sale under-priced, you'd be a fool to not buy it up asap, thus you're turning a profit off the very person who killed you.
The anonymous market works very well. Changing to a shop-based system would require a MASSIVE overhaul of the entire market system. There are many things far more important than that for devs to look at, such as removing the market refresh after updating 2 orders, adding in folders to quickbars, adding in saved searches to contracts, etc, etc.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
M Clarion
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Posted - 2007.12.04 18:47:00 -
[25]
Thanks again for the help guys.
I did look in the Market Essentials sticky, however I could not easily find anything on the EVE market mechanics.
It may have been listed in the Trading 101 or something like that link, but none of these links lead me to believe I could find the information I was looking for, and to be honest I didn't feel like sorting through 100 pages of posts to find an obscure detail.
Maybe Jacques Archambault could add some descriptions to his links or add a more specific link for this important detail. I've played EVE on and off for about 3 years (of which about 2 years on) and I NEVER knew this fact (granted, Im not a trader...)
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WarlockX
Amarr Free Trade Corp Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.04 19:31:00 -
[26]
Originally by: SencneS Edited by: SencneS on 04/12/2007 13:51:20 You would think after the countless posts about this CCP would think of a better system. To be honest for a year now I've been saying the following.
When I right click on an Item and select "BUY" I want to BUY that item from THAT seller regardless of who has anything cheaper.
List all the Sellers. We all know Market is just as much PVP as anything else in EVE yet the lack of Selected buying means you could probably be filling your enemy's pockets. It also allows for the ultimate Market PVP move, offer subsidize for continued patronage. If they allowed this, I'm sure someone would setup an affiliate site where you sign up, enter your API key and get some ISK back for using their affiliate.
It's simple enough, if I don't want to buy something from someone who podded suicide ganked me in highsec space I shouldn't have to. I want the choice.
The only people that have anything to complain about choice over the current broker system are people who are exploiting the faults in the system and those who prey on the unknowing newbie.
NO. This is a horrible idea for multiple reasons. Gameplay reason why it sucks: It allows money laundrying. Logical Reason why it sucks: How do you know who is selling the item if you give it to a broker! You do not personaly go and hand the item to your worst enemy and have him pay you. The broker does all the work you have no way to get this info and would make no sense for you to "magicaly" know who is selling it. ----------------------------------------------- "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation." |
Havok Pierce
Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.04 22:31:00 -
[27]
EVE-Wiki: EVE's Broker System
Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
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NCP S2
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Posted - 2007.12.05 01:27:00 -
[28]
Hmm this doesn't sit well with me, for this reason:
I have an item for sale at 300 mil, say, for a single piece of trit.
You're saying that if someone clicks on buy from that item, whoever has trit up for sale at the lowest, let's say 3 isk per unit, gets the 300 mil?
I mean, the situation above is kind of shady to begin with, but if that is the case, the system seems totally f**ked up in my opinion. I know if you put up a buy order, it will fill your buy order at your price, even if there are sell orders below the cost, but clicking on buy from someone, like above, ... I just can't grasp this I guess.
I can understand how it works, but why should it work that way? Ugh I have a headache now >.<
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.06 01:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: NCP S2 Hmm this doesn't sit well with me, for this reason:
I have an item for sale at 300 mil, say, for a single piece of trit.
You're saying that if someone clicks on buy from that item, whoever has trit up for sale at the lowest, let's say 3 isk per unit, gets the 300 mil?
I mean, the situation above is kind of shady to begin with, but if that is the case, the system seems totally f**ked up in my opinion. I know if you put up a buy order, it will fill your buy order at your price, even if there are sell orders below the cost, but clicking on buy from someone, like above, ... I just can't grasp this I guess.
I can understand how it works, but why should it work that way? Ugh I have a headache now >.<
Because it is a broker based system, not a shop based system. It stops money laundering as said above.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Jin Lianmei
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Posted - 2007.12.06 02:12:00 -
[30]
And can the reverse happen? Just a few days ago i was the highest bidder on some product at 32M isk, but instead i got four items for just 4M each. Was it because someone tried to sell at the cheaper price?
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