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myFORUMalt alts
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2012.02.02 18:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yesterday I got a contract in jita (I know most of them are scams) for 1.8 billion. It had 8 republic fleet navy rear-admiral tags and some other items. But the tags had buy orders of 320 million a piece. So if i acquired 8 tags worth 2.49 billion in active buy orders, maybe some one is lazy or i found a mistake (which I have found in the past) Looks like an easy 700m profit.
Well, i go to sell the tags, everything looks normal, as the order at 320m was for ten of them. It showed up that i was to receive the 2.49 billion, and then poof. The tags disappear, no wallet blink, no record of the transaction at all. Today I log on, fly around lowsec, get back to jita en-route back to null and pow, there are the tags, with a whole new set of active market buy orders. How was it that I appeared to be filling the active buy order and then I sell the tags, they disappear, i get no isk, and the tags appear a day later. The sell order was still at 10 of the tags for 320 when i went to bed last night, that didn't stop existing until this morning.
Is it some kinda of trick with markest escrow and moving isk around after the order is put up? This happen to anyone else. Is it a huge market loop hole?
Yes, I complain about things I don't like. |
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
169
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Posted - 2012.02.02 19:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Look up margin trading scam - you won't need to look far. |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
320
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Posted - 2012.02.02 19:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tekota wrote:Look up margin trading scam - you won't need to look far.
This. Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
myFORUMalt alts
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2012.02.02 19:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Does ccp have an official response to this scam type so i can stop checking my petition Yes, I complain about things I don't like. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
20
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Posted - 2012.02.02 19:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
The way the margin trading scam works the buy order would have been for 10 tags with a minimum of 10 but not enough escrow to buy all 10 so the order would fail.
They make the money by putting the tags up for sale at inflated prices with no lower prices ones available. you are buying their tags off them for far more than they are actually worth and trying to sell back to the small trader(usually one of their alts) but the order fails as the escrow does not cover the buy order and the character placing the buy order has no isk to cover the difference.
In this scam you would be stuck with 10 tags that you way over paid for. If the tags disappeared out of your inventory and you got no isk for them they may be sitting in the deliveries hanger or might have bugged in which case you need to put in a petition. either way you will be stuck with some worthless items that you paid way way to much for. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
56
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Posted - 2012.02.02 19:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
myFORUMalt alts wrote:Does ccp have an official response to this scam type so i can stop checking my petition
The official response is that it's a clever use of existing game mechanics (specifically the margin trading skill) and that there's nothing wrong with it. |
myFORUMalt alts
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 19:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Well it seems I'm in the wrong business then. Yes, I complain about things I don't like. |
Trading Mathilda
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2012.02.02 19:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Normally these things will make you very rich,
It is best to try this +_5 times and for sure you will make a profit.
These are no scams |
Ruvin
Glorious Revolution The 99 Percent
17
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Posted - 2012.02.02 19:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
once you know it , but everything as you did , and relist then higher price , if you do it right someone else will fall for it and youl make even a profit
edit : "new" lol .... each week it pops up as new ... |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
322
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Posted - 2012.02.02 20:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Do not touch buy orders that are for more than 1 unit of something. Do not be greedy.
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myFORUMalt alts
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2012.02.02 20:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Once upon a time i had gotten a guristas faction spawn and got a dread guristas warp scrambler, worth about 24 million. Well, one person accidentally made a contract wtb a dread guristas invul field, but linked the warp scrambler instead. So that day, i made a quick 400 mil. Sometimes, you other people or lazy and make mistakes, other times they use a game mechanic to get yah. Now ive seen both
Yes, I complain about things I don't like. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
203
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Posted - 2012.02.02 20:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Look at the bumpers on that one .... mmm nevermind ... |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
20
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Posted - 2012.02.02 20:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
I hear yah.
I really do not understand why CCP has not removed margin trading from the game.
It's intent was so that you could place multiple buy orders in multiple markets while not tying up so much isk in escrow. I doubt it is ever used for this purpose. Generally when a game mechanic is used in a way other than intended for dishonest gain it is considered exploiting a flawed game mechanic and the mechanic is fixed or removed.
I really do not understand why it is still here. |
David Forge
Forge Enterprises
66
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Posted - 2012.02.02 21:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
It serves a legitimate function, roughly the same function margin trading provides IRL. |
myFORUMalt alts
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2012.02.02 21:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
David Forge wrote:It serves a legitimate function, roughly the same function margin trading provides IRL.
In real life you get thrown in real federal bu** FU** prison for scamming people out of millions. In real life you cant create just delete yourself and pop up in 8 other forms immune to the government. I agree it serves an enormous role in real life economics and wealth creation, but here it just is an exploit. Yes, I complain about things I don't like. |
Callean Drevus
Icosahedron Crafts and Shipping Silent Infinity
84
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Posted - 2012.02.02 21:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
I do not agree it is an exploit, but I do still think there should be a notification that tells you WHY your order failed. Now it just silently fails, which is pretty much only a source of petitions for CCP.
It would be interesting to see how many petitions are sent per day regarding this topic :P Developer/Creator of EVE Marketeer
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Dimitri Jackal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.02.02 21:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
it does not 'Silently' fail - it will tell you that the requested market order no longer exists - your market information may have been out of date or someone filled the order before you - is the phrasing. Unless you have disabled this warning, it does not silently fail.
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Callean Drevus
Icosahedron Crafts and Shipping Silent Infinity
84
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Posted - 2012.02.02 22:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
Dimitri Jackal wrote:it does not 'Silently' fail - it will tell you that the requested market order no longer exists - your market information may have been out of date or someone filled the order before you - is the phrasing. Unless you have disabled this warning, it does not silently fail. Ok, in that case, since it has been some time since I fell for this one, the problem is that the message you receive is not at all relevant to what just happened, since neither of the explanations in the message is correct. In fact, it will lead you (as it did me) to believe that someone cancelled the order right before you filled it, which we now all know is incorrect. Developer/Creator of EVE Marketeer
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myFORUMalt alts
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
49
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Posted - 2012.02.02 22:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
bottom line is, I didnt get a message. All i got was POOOOOFFFFF, nothing. no message, no wallet blink, and no tags for about 24 hours. This is a clear gaping huge hole in the financial mechanics of eve. It allows some one to just really screw other people over.
If you have an item, and if there is an open market order for said item, you should always been able to fullfill that market order for said item. In the current system, you can not always perform that simple task, and you should be able to. Its a game mechanic that needs fixing. Perhaps market escrow should be tied to standings as a credit check, and when you fail to meet the escrow when its time to get paid, you lose those standings. This way it takes time to build credit, and your credit means something.
Yes, I complain about things I don't like. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
245
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Posted - 2012.02.02 22:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
myFORUMalt alts wrote:David Forge wrote:It serves a legitimate function, roughly the same function margin trading provides IRL. In real life you get thrown in real federal bu** FU** prison for scamming people out of millions. In real life you cant create just delete yourself and pop up in 8 other forms immune to the government. I agree it serves an enormous role in real life economics and wealth creation, but here it just is an exploit.
In real life the orders are much more complex than this, some markets implement hidden orders / iceberg orders, staggered orders. To even be able to setup a "block order" you need to join certain groups and become an "Eligible Contract Participant" (I am sure every country has its obscure, nonstandard and ugly ways to do this). Certain clearing entities may be required to authorize the block trade.
If the seller / buyer does not satisfy this, his block order will be forcibly split among every best matching opposite order. In case of large block orders, a market could tank and hit a thresold (only certain markets have it) where transactions are halted due to excessive drop.
In real life your block sell order would be matched with the next best, possibly a 1 cent one. You would lose the money but also the inventory.
Don't even compare EvE to RL finance, the latter makes EvE look like a simplified, sweetened version of Hello Kitty Online. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Onlyasandwich
NewsRadio
3
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Posted - 2012.02.02 22:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:I hear yah.
I really do not understand why CCP has not removed margin trading from the game.
It's intent was so that you could place multiple buy orders in multiple markets while not tying up so much isk in escrow. I doubt it is ever used for this purpose. Generally when a game mechanic is used in a way other than intended for dishonest gain it is considered exploiting a flawed game mechanic and the mechanic is fixed or removed.
I really do not understand why it is still here.
Margin trading is probably the single most important skill for legitimate trading activity.
The margin scams are sneaky, but ultimately punish only the careless. You might find an "easy" market opportunity on your own, but nobody is going to advertise such an opportunity in a contract. Beware all contracts that consist only of regular market items. |
Ajita al Tchar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2012.02.02 23:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:I hear yah.
I really do not understand why CCP has not removed margin trading from the game.
It's intent was so that you could place multiple buy orders in multiple markets while not tying up so much isk in escrow. I doubt it is ever used for this purpose. Generally when a game mechanic is used in a way other than intended for dishonest gain it is considered exploiting a flawed game mechanic and the mechanic is fixed or removed.
I really do not understand why it is still here.
Of course it's used for its intended purpose. Just because you don't do it, doesn't mean that no one else does. I like it that I can place buy orders for fairly low volume items (or at prices that aren't the best, because I don't care about the volume coming in quickly) and still keep the ISK that would have otherwise been tied up liquid, for investing in things that make me more ISK quickly. The fact that I have more money in the wallet to invest in whatever means I make that much more money, when otherwise it would have all just been sitting in buy orders that aren't about to be filled in the next two hours.
As has already been pointed out, people make mistakes. Someone made a mistake with their WTB contract, and someone else capitalized on it. Someone else made the mistake of not looking up popular scams to see that this one is on that list, and someone else capitalized on it. Though in this case, if the OP is out of money and tags aren't to be found anywhere, it's a bug. |
David Forge
Forge Enterprises
67
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Posted - 2012.02.03 00:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
myFORUMalt alts wrote:David Forge wrote:It serves a legitimate function, roughly the same function margin trading provides IRL. In real life you get thrown in real federal bu** FU** prison for scamming people out of millions. In real life you cant create just delete yourself and pop up in 8 other forms immune to the government. I agree it serves an enormous role in real life economics and wealth creation, but here it just is an exploit.
My point was that the assertion that margin trading has no legitimate purpose is nonsensical. Of course it's used for scamming, but it also does the thing that it was meant to which is both useful and necessary for largescale trading.
Anyway, practically all the features of Eve can be employed in a way to screw over other players. Since, as it has been said, the margin trading scam is mostly only successful against the careless (and yes, sadly, a mistake by a player not familiar with the mechanics) I don't think it would be beneficial, overall, to remove it. It would do greater harm, in denying traders the ability, with little good. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
23
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Posted - 2012.02.03 03:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ajita al Tchar wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote:I hear yah.
I really do not understand why it is still here. Of course it's used for its intended purpose. Just because you don't do it, doesn't mean that no one else does. I like it that I can place buy orders for fairly low volume items (or at prices that aren't the best, because I don't care about the volume coming in quickly) and still keep the ISK that would have otherwise been tied up liquid, for investing in things that make me more ISK quickly. The fact that I have more money in the wallet to invest in whatever means I make that much more money, when otherwise it would have all just been sitting in buy orders that aren't about to be filled in the next two hours. As has already been pointed out, people make mistakes. Someone made a mistake with their WTB contract, and someone else capitalized on it. Someone else made the mistake of not looking up popular scams to see that this one is on that list, and someone else capitalized on it. Though in this case, if the OP is out of money and tags aren't to be found anywhere, it's a bug.
I can understand that.
But there should be a mechanic added that will allow you to have the minimal escrow but not allow the orders to fail. In the real world, if you are margin trading and you do not have the cash to back your orders at the end of the day, there is hell to pay. They can seize your assets and throw you in Jail.
Would be cool if they would allow wallets to just go negative and that toon could not set up any orders until returning to positive wallet. They would also have to make it so you can not delete or transfer a character off an account with a negative wallet. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
728
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Posted - 2012.02.03 03:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Would be cool if they would allow wallets to just go negative and that toon could not set up any orders until returning to positive wallet. They would also have to make it so you can not delete or transfer a character off an account with a negative wallet. If I could double my ISK every time this suggestion was made, I'd still not have anywhere near the amount of infinite ISK the above would give me. 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
663
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 05:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
The best that you can possibly hope for is either:
- CCP nerfs the margin trading skill (unlikely).
- CCP makes buy orders where there is not enough in the wallet to cover the transaction automatically filter (hide) from the buy window until there is enough ISK in the wallet. (Probably unlikely as well due to server load it would cause.)
- Learn how to spot the "too good to be true" deals and don't get suckered again.
EvE is a very cutthroat no-holds-barred market, if you can do it in-game, without using exploits, then it's allowed. And the margin trading scam is allowed (so is corp theft, scamming someone, cheating with lookalike items in contracts, shorting someone on a trade deal, stealing from their jetcan, blowing them up, etc.).
Which is one of EvE's central charms (over the long term). |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
100
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Posted - 2012.02.03 05:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:I hear yah.
I really do not understand why CCP has not removed margin trading from the game.
It's intent was so that you could place multiple buy orders in multiple markets while not tying up so much isk in escrow. I doubt it is ever used for this purpose. Generally when a game mechanic is used in a way other than intended for dishonest gain it is considered exploiting a flawed game mechanic and the mechanic is fixed or removed.
I really do not understand why it is still here.
I use it every day so I can keep 50+ buy orders up and running on a region-wide basis. Not everybody lives in Jita. |
Daddy's Princess
The Player Haters Corp
2
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Posted - 2012.02.03 06:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote:I hear yah.
I really do not understand why CCP has not removed margin trading from the game.
It's intent was so that you could place multiple buy orders in multiple markets while not tying up so much isk in escrow. I doubt it is ever used for this purpose. Generally when a game mechanic is used in a way other than intended for dishonest gain it is considered exploiting a flawed game mechanic and the mechanic is fixed or removed.
I really do not understand why it is still here. I use it every day so I can keep 50+ buy orders up and running on a region-wide basis. Not everybody lives in Jita.
Man, even people in jita use this skill. Pretty much it allows for many "catcher" orders for those times when price dips to its low point in the trend cycles. I wouldn't be too happy to have to tie up all those isk for weeks which is what you'd have to do without margin trading.
This skill is almost exclusively used exactly for its intended purpose. It would be extremely stupid to nerf it because occasionally someone gets played. I wouldn't even call it a scam. |
Herman Klaus
Touched By Klaus
40
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Posted - 2012.02.03 06:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Anyone that falls for the Martin trading scam is guilty of being greedy and thus deserves all they get. Im humoured daily by what people fall for in eve.
On the topic of failed contracts; I once got an 11b T2 BPO for 9m ISK. My best catch so far. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
57
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Posted - 2012.02.03 13:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Onlyasandwich wrote: but ultimately punish only the careless
This is true of every scam, but people would rather complain about a valid (illegitimate) use of a valid skill with valid (legitimate) uses in a game that's specifically sold as a sandbox in which anything (that is not an outright exploit (note that an exploit means actually breaking the game rules)) goes.
That said CCP has clarified contract pricing and added the II/III/faction */other corner icons to items, so maybe they'll bow to the careless in the end, and the game will get a little less fun. |
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