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Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
24
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Posted - 2012.02.03 15:02:00 -
[31] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Would be cool if they would allow wallets to just go negative and that toon could not set up any orders until returning to positive wallet. They would also have to make it so you can not delete or transfer a character off an account with a negative wallet. If I could double my ISK every time this suggestion was made, I'd still not have anywhere near the amount of infinite ISK the above would give me.
And how would that work?
If it just allowed the characters wallet to go negative then yes but if you could not place any market orders or delete that character to create a new one while the character had a negative wallet how would you use that mechanic to make money? One scam per alt 3 alts per account = 3 scams max per account compared to the unlimited scamming that can be done currently.
The only way around it would be to repeatedly start new accounts, and if they made margin trading a non trial account skill as many other skills are that would get expensive very fast. either buying plex to activate each new account or spending a butt load of real money.
True most of these scams make more than enough to cover the cost of a plex, still a big chunk out of the profits, but if you could only do 3 scams per account before needing a new account. And if someone messed with you profits by under cutting your sell orders you could actually lose isk.
It would make these scams still possible but far less appealing as it would involve a lot more work and risk to pull it off. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 15:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
I can understand that.
But there should be a mechanic added that will allow you to have the minimal escrow but not allow the orders to fail. In the real world, if you are margin trading and you do not have the cash to back your orders at the end of the day, there is hell to pay. They can seize your assets and throw you in Jail.
Would be cool if they would allow wallets to just go negative and that toon could not set up any orders until returning to positive wallet. They would also have to make it so you can not delete or transfer a character off an account with a negative wallet.
You can transfer a character with a negative account but you cannot sell a character with negative account; CCP will reverse the transfer, refund the purchase and hunt down the pip taking out of wallets.
Regarding "the real world", you don't understand the complex nature of margin trading and the rules on all parties, please don't talk about it. I'm a professional forex trader now for 3 years and the rules are all the same governing margin trading in the US and abroad . Your broker is 100% responsible for the margined account as they provide the margin to you based on the governing bodies rules. My account can trade at 50:1 in the US, other forex brokers outside the us offer 100:1 or 1000:1 on mini's. Futures are the same and stocks usually get a 2:1 or 5:1 depending on the broker.
What does this mean to you. You place money into escrow and open the trade with margin. While the trade is on the broker is calculating your profit/loss. If your loss exceeds your remaining equity the trade is automatically closed at the zero point and that's it. There is no negative as the broker is 100% liable for you going negative and must eat the loss. So they will not allow you to go negative. While the trade runs negative you'll also notice your available equity shrinks at a rate of the margin size to keep the overall margin in place until available equity hits near zero.
Similarly CCP is doing the exact same thing. You have a margin and money is placed in escrow for the trades. As the trades go they monitor your wallet and will cancel or zero out the trade when it exceeds your remaining equity, they will not allow you to go negative as well. Leveraged trading is a very powerful tool for traders and a small portion of scamers use it as well. Should we ban can ejection in space because a small portion of scamers use it on newbies to kill them or flip miners who then die?
As for going to jail, stop spouting out the stupid please. You only go to jail for committing a crime and exceeding your margin isn't a crime, its a civil matter. Also they don't "seize" all your assets, they merely take your remaining equity and you've blown your account. If somehow you went negative, with forex at least and I'm sure this is the same across the board as CFTC governs futures too, the broker can't go after you as they are required to have rules & trading procedures in place to prevent that from occurring.
The scams people pull in real life is not margin trading. They are complex ponzi's typically. Those break the law and those go to jail....even if the account margin never went negative! |
Armed Maniac
The Rock and Roid Band
1
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Posted - 2012.02.03 15:24:00 -
[33] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote: And how would that work?
What would stop someone from using the max of 3 per account to make 100b off of a single trade on a single character? with a little time invested in margin trading training they would only need to put up less than 30% and could gain more than 70% of any order they made up. |
BabySeal Clubber
KittehsofDoOoOoM
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 16:57:00 -
[34] - Quote
myFORUMalt alts wrote:David Forge wrote:It serves a legitimate function, roughly the same function margin trading provides IRL. In real life you get thrown in real federal bu** FU** prison for sca[i][mming people out of millions. In real life you cant create just delete yourself and pop up in 8 other forms immune to the government. I agree it serves an enormous role in real life economics and wealth creation, but here it just is an exploit.
Actually if you hit "agree" in real life without reading the fine print or doing your homework, no one goes to "butt f*ck" prison as you put it. Every 'scam' is someone using the rules and the fact that not everyone reads them to their advantage. An 'exploit' on the other hand is when someone breaks the rules. This is not an exploit, its a scam, and ccps position on scams is and always has been "good luck". If you hadn't figured that out before now, welcome to eve. |
myFORUMalt alts
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 17:06:00 -
[35] - Quote
Oh really, I missed that fine print you speak of where under the market order it says, the order is placed but the funds to back it are absent. Would you kindly point it out for me Yes, I complain about things I don't like. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 17:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
myFORUMalt alts wrote:Oh really, I missed that fine print you speak of where under the market order it says, the order is placed but the funds to back it are absent. Would you kindly point it out for me
You're really offbase here but if you want where it says that here: margin trading.
YOU improperly assume there is some contract between YOU and the market which is incorrect. The contract regarding buy orders is between the BUYER and CCP who runs the market. CCP said the BUYER can place a margin order but if the BUYER fails to have the funds to cover the order then the order fails.
YOU purchased from a contract to sell to the market. The market ran the rules and failed the order as the BUYER didn't have the funds available. However, you were not scammed as you misunderstand what the contract seller sold you....GREED. You bought a large amount of greed and were probably gitty and happy. That is what you bought, now you have buyer's remorse.
Lets look at your thought process to make this "scam" occur.
- You see a contract being offered in local for officer tags that they want to sell quickly
- You look at the contract and see probably some high priced tags and low priced ones
- You check the market and see the buy order for the tags is higher than the tag's contract value
- You probably stupidly ignored the fact that there was a buy order @30m/tag with the next highest buy order @1m
- You probably extremely really stupidly failed to see that the tag was being sold on the market @2.9 and I'm willing to bet this is a price that is lower than the contract price for the tag/item
- You may or may not have seen the min value for the buy order, if you did you apparently didn't find it at least suspicious that the contract was selling the exact or just about exact amount as the buy order; if you didn't then you didn't properly read the market
- But your purchased Greed is running high right now and your endorphins are up...you think you are about to make a nice 700m, buy a plex a new ship all
- However, you failed to ask the question: why would this contract seller want to give ME the opportunity to pocket 700m when they could just press contract cancel, be out 10k broker fee and pocket the 700m?
- Finally you press the buy button and nothing happens. Suddenly the greed you purchase ran its course and now you are suffering from greed buyer's remorse.
From this list at what stage did you need someone from CCP calling you to tell you there was a HUGE RED FLAG hanging around nearly EVERY step in the process? If its too good to be true, its probably a scam. Read over everything, run the number crunch. If you are under a time pressure let it go. But even then follow this rule:
If it looks like you can make money buying from a Jita Contract and selling to the Jita market.....it is 100 percent a scam all the time all day long. |
Fara'a
BALKAN EXPRESS
5
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 19:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Buruk Utama wrote:[quote=Bugsy VanHalen] What does this mean to you. You place money into escrow and open the trade with margin. While the trade is on the broker is calculating your profit/loss. If your loss exceeds your remaining equity the trade is automatically closed at the zero point and that's it. There is no negative as the broker is 100% liable for you going negative and must eat the loss. So they will not allow you to go negative. While the trade runs negative you'll also notice your available equity shrinks at a rate of the margin size to keep the overall margin in place until available equity hits near zero. Similarly CCP is doing the exact same thing. You have a margin and money is placed in escrow for the trades. As the trades go they monitor your wallet and will cancel or zero out the trade when it exceeds your remaining equity, they will not allow you to go negative as well. Leveraged trading is a very powerful tool for traders and a small portion of scamers use it as well. Should we ban can ejection in space because a small portion of scamers use it on newbies to kill them or flip miners who then die?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but te big difference is the lack of the broker party in Eve that is filling the purpose of a real life margin trading. Thus the possibility of a margin trade scams. Hate it or love it, the underdog's on top, And I'm gonna shine until my heart stop. |
myFORUMalt alts
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 19:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
I guess to sum it up.
Now i know. Dont trust market orders.
Yes, I complain about things I don't like. |
Dethmourne Silvermane
The Threat Beyond
9
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 19:16:00 -
[39] - Quote
myFORUMalt alts wrote:David Forge wrote:It serves a legitimate function, roughly the same function margin trading provides IRL. In real life you get thrown in real federal bu** FU** prison for scamming people out of millions. In real life you cant create just delete yourself and pop up in 8 other forms immune to the government. I agree it serves an enormous role in real life economics and wealth creation, but here it just is an exploit.
Technically there is no scam involved here, from a mechanics perspective. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
76
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 20:22:00 -
[40] - Quote
Fara'a wrote:Buruk Utama wrote:[quote=Bugsy VanHalen] What does this mean to you. You place money into escrow and open the trade with margin. While the trade is on the broker is calculating your profit/loss. If your loss exceeds your remaining equity the trade is automatically closed at the zero point and that's it. There is no negative as the broker is 100% liable for you going negative and must eat the loss. So they will not allow you to go negative. While the trade runs negative you'll also notice your available equity shrinks at a rate of the margin size to keep the overall margin in place until available equity hits near zero. Similarly CCP is doing the exact same thing. You have a margin and money is placed in escrow for the trades. As the trades go they monitor your wallet and will cancel or zero out the trade when it exceeds your remaining equity, they will not allow you to go negative as well. Leveraged trading is a very powerful tool for traders and a small portion of scamers use it as well. Should we ban can ejection in space because a small portion of scamers use it on newbies to kill them or flip miners who then die? Correct me if I'm wrong, but te big difference is the lack of the broker party in Eve that is filling the purpose of a real life margin trading. Thus the possibility of a margin trade scams.
Sorta. I think the mechanic just needs a minor tweek really. In real life I can place the trade but my equity is eaten while it is negative until it is at 0. In EVE it's all or nothing which can be changed. To prevent these scams all CCP has to do is partially fill the order with the isk in escrow + remaining isk in wallet.
IN this respect, if the person can't fulfill a buy order of 20 but could fulfill a buy order of 5 then the game should eat their margin escrow and the wallet to zero. From an ethics standpoint I think it is in good form as well. Yes the buyer wanted 20 units at once but never had the isk to cover the buy, this is in bad faith. Therefore forcing the buy @ 5 units is a very equitable situation.
Also the margin trader (like myself) will not be affected by this type of change since we will watch our exposure. The only people affected are those unreasonably extended with margin and the scammers.
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GreenSeed
17
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 20:50:00 -
[41] - Quote
myFORUMalt alts wrote:I guess to sum it up.
Now i know. Dont trust market orders.
you are not supposed to "trust" anything...
the HUGE mistake ppl make on this game, is to trust the market window at any given time. for example if at any given time the market shows a buy order for X item at 100k/u with a minimum volume of 200k units, and you see that as legitimate and go lose money trying to furfill it. you cant say you were scammed.
why? well... the market window clearly showed to you only one buy order, and a price history of say 10kisk/unit over the last 6 months and a traded volume of 100 units per day. the mistake is YOURS for taking the snapshot of market orders activity as a reliable source of market information.
again, the market window only shows market orders, not knowing that market orders are in no way a snapshot of the market value of the goods traded is your mistake, and ppl abusing your ignorance of that fact is not a scam.
the information is there, use it, or get used to giving money away. |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
101
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 03:47:00 -
[42] - Quote
corestwo wrote:That said CCP has clarified contract pricing and added the II/III/faction */other corner icons to items, so maybe they'll bow to the careless in the end, and the game will get a little less fun.
See, I think that the changes to contracts are perfectly fine, because those scams were only really possible due to poor UI and graphics choices on the part of CCP. It makes sense for the UI to indicate prices legibly, and it makes sense for the graphical icons to give a good visual differentiation between, say, BPCs and BPOs (and given that there are so many different types of each individual module, between tiers as well).
I don't quite think that these sorts of UI/graphics changes are really an issue of bowing to the carebears, because those changes make sense even in a non-scam-reducing context.
Changing the Margin Trading skill, or making certain visual cues on the market window just to alert people of this "scam," is really not the same sort of thing. That would be a clear move on the part of CCP to bow to carebears, because the only real point would be to reduce the effect of a known "scam."
We agree fundamentally, but I differ with you in that regard. The contract changes were necessary and good, even if ultimately they made it harder for contract scams to occur, because they made logical sense outside of the scamming context. |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
101
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 03:53:00 -
[43] - Quote
myFORUMalt alts wrote:I guess to sum it up.
Now i know. Dont trust market orders.
No, you don't know. The summary is: "Don't trust a very small number of obviously out-of-whack and easily-spotted market orders."
Stop being disingenuous. |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
101
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 03:56:00 -
[44] - Quote
Buruk Utama wrote:Yes the buyer wanted 20 units at once but never had the isk to cover the buy, this is in bad faith.
Why is it in bad faith? By the time that order would have been filled (less likely because it's demanding a higher quantity to be sold to it at one time), I could have been expecting to have the money to cover it. That's the entire point of Margin Trading, after all, to give a trader the ability to not have the cash on hand to cover the order. If I must have the cash on hand, then the Margin Trading skill is useless. |
Jaqa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 10:27:00 -
[45] - Quote
Yeah, had something like this happen to me; I'm hoping they answer my petition, but I'm not holding my breath. Kind of surprised to see scams on the market itself, as opposed to the contracts. |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
104
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 11:26:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jaqa wrote:Yeah, had something like this happen to me; I'm hoping they answer my petition, but I'm not holding my breath. Kind of surprised to see scams on the market itself, as opposed to the contracts.
What are you petitioning? That you bought a bunch of overpriced crap of your own accord, and then a buy order for that stuff no longer existed when you tried to sell to it? Doesn't sound like an exploit to me. |
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
76
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 15:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:Buruk Utama wrote:Yes the buyer wanted 20 units at once but never had the isk to cover the buy, this is in bad faith. Why is it in bad faith? By the time that order would have been filled (less likely because it's demanding a higher quantity to be sold to it at one time), I could have been expecting to have the money to cover it. That's the entire point of Margin Trading, after all, to give a trader the ability to not have the cash on hand to cover the order. If I must have the cash on hand, then the Margin Trading skill is useless.
I'm not saying gut the margin trading skill but these scams are easy to identify from a code perspective. If suddenly you have a buy order that is over 2000% above the market sell order and market buy orders with an attached min to avoid clearing out the market then it is only a scam and the change I described could kick in.
I'm also not condemning people who use the trick nor do I expect CCP to put this issue on anything but the back burner as it's not a major issue and not something deserving of a bunch of attention. Like everything in EVE, people need to be careful of that honey pot with a huge shinning spotlight lighting it up. |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
104
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 15:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
Buruk Utama wrote:I'm not saying gut the margin trading skill but these scams are easy to identify from a code perspective. If suddenly you have a buy order that is over 2000% above the market sell order and market buy orders with an attached min to avoid clearing out the market then it is only a scam and the change I described could kick in.
I'm also not condemning people who use the trick nor do I expect CCP to put this issue on anything but the back burner as it's not a major issue and not something deserving of a bunch of attention. Like everything in EVE, people need to be careful of that honey pot with a huge shinning spotlight lighting it up.
Scammers would simply find out where the line is drawn and make sure that they set it up just outside the range where the system would kick in to stop it. |
Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 02:57:00 -
[49] - Quote
It's called a 'scam' but in fact is not. Below is what happened.
- YOU bought an item, which is exactly the same item YOU intended to buy, at the price YOU decided was appropriate. - YOU tried to sell the item at the price YOU decided was appropriate. - The market mechanic properly functioned and legitimately cancelled the buy order so that YOU don't end up selling the item at a price lower than YOUR set price. - The item still remains in YOUR possession.
The only thing that went wrong here is that YOU misjudged the current value of the item.
Misjudging the value of an item is itselft very difficult to do because market price history data up to 1 year is instantly available in-game. Also, just make a few jumps and you can check other region's price data as well.
Nothing wrong with the market mechanic here.
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myFORUMalt alts
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 03:01:00 -
[50] - Quote
Fat Buddah wrote:It's called a 'scam' but in fact is not. Below is what happened.
- YOU bought an item, which is exactly the same item YOU intended to buy, at the price YOU decided was appropriate. - YOU tried to sell the item at the price YOU decided was appropriate. - The market mechanic properly functioned and legitimately cancelled the buy order so that YOU don't end up selling the item at a price lower than YOUR set price. - The item still remains in YOUR possession.
The only thing that went wrong here is that YOU misjudged the current value of the item.
Misjudging the value of an item is itselft very difficult to do because market price history data up to 1 year is instantly available in-game. Also, just make a few jumps and you can check other region's price data as well.
Nothing wrong with the market mechanic here.
Dammit, i thought this post was buried and was dying. The part i love "The only thing that went wrong here is that YOU misjudged the current value of the item" Your an idiot. The value of an item is projected as the price people are willing to buy it at. Which is broadcast to all the eve players by market orders. VALUE=what people are willing to pay for it. BUY ORDERS= what people are willing to pay for it. But yes, the matter has been resolved and I got my isk back Yes, I complain about things I don't like. |
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Fat Buddah
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 03:27:00 -
[51] - Quote
myFORUMalt alts wrote:Fat Buddah wrote:It's called a 'scam' but in fact is not. stuff
Dammit, i thought this post was buried and was dying. The part i love "The only thing that went wrong here is that YOU misjudged the current value of the item" Your an idiot. The value of an item is projected as the price people are willing to buy it at. Which is broadcast to all the eve players by market orders. VALUE=what people are willing to pay for it. BUY ORDERS= what people are willing to pay for it. But yes, the matter has been resolved and I got my isk back
Sorry, but as far as I know you have to enter YOUR price when you are setting up any sell/buy order.
Since you just mindlessly agree to someone else's prices, by god please tell me the station and the system where you generally hang out and I will gratefully set up some buy/sell orders right there.
Thank you in advance for billions |
Srioghal moDhream
B and T Inc
8
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 14:18:00 -
[52] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Would be cool if they would allow wallets to just go negative and that toon could not set up any orders until returning to positive wallet. They would also have to make it so you can not delete or transfer a character off an account with a negative wallet. If I could double my ISK every time this suggestion was made, I'd still not have anywhere near the amount of infinite ISK the above would give me. And how would that work? If it just allowed the characters wallet to go negative then yes but if you could not place any market orders or delete that character to create a new one while the character had a negative wallet how would you use that mechanic to make money? One scam per alt 3 alts per account = 3 scams max per account compared to the unlimited scamming that can be done currently. The only way around it would be to repeatedly start new accounts, and if they made margin trading a non trial account skill as many other skills are that would get expensive very fast. either buying plex to activate each new account or spending a butt load of real money. True most of these scams make more than enough to cover the cost of a plex, still a big chunk out of the profits, but if you could only do 3 scams per account before needing a new account. And if someone messed with you profits by under cutting your sell orders you could actually lose isk. It would make these scams still possible but far less appealing as it would involve a lot more work and risk to pull it off.
Buddy trial + plex reward = infinite accounts for free. |
WarProfit
Ubuntu Inc. Lonely Maple Conglomeration
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 21:35:00 -
[53] - Quote
So in conclusion for every item you put up on the market have your broke alt put up a buy order for twice the listed price and watch your items sell and the tears flow. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
8
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 00:14:00 -
[54] - Quote
I've been an active equity and options investor/speculator for over five years. Buruk pretty much hit the nail on the head with his comments. The system in Eve needs to change, the order placer needs to get a kick to the shorts with a negative wallet. I hope they make this change and don' t tell anyone, that would be hilarious!
As for the scam side of it, while it is a rather amusing use of game mechanics, it isn't realistic at all. And yes, I did say "realistic" when referring to an internet space ship game. PEW PEW PEW |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
116
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 00:25:00 -
[55] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:I've been an active equity and options investor/speculator for over five years. Buruk pretty much hit the nail on the head with his comments. The system in Eve needs to change, the order placer needs to get a kick to the shorts with a negative wallet. I hope they make this change and don' t tell anyone, that would be hilarious!
As for the scam side of it, while it is a rather amusing use of game mechanics, it isn't realistic at all. And yes, I did say "realistic" when referring to an internet space ship game. PEW PEW PEW
Regardless of what some over-enthusiastic players and devs might think, EVE is NOT real, at least not this real.
Margin Trading in EVE is very simple. I place a buy order. A portion of the order's value is placed in escrow. If someone attempts to fill the order and I don't have enough to cover it, the order is cancelled and I'm out the broker's fee.
I'm not sure why there should have to be any greater downside than that. |
Antigena
Opportunity Cost
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 00:54:00 -
[56] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote: you are not supposed to "trust" anything...
So... I'm not supposed to "trust" that when I click something on the UI, that thing happens? I'm not supposed to "trust" that when I click the "quit game" button on the escape screen that the program will exit? I'm not supposed to "trust" that when i want to buy a ship and i have the isk, that i can say "buy this" and it happens? I'm not supposed to trust that if there is a buy order posted by someone who has decided they want to buy an item for a certain price, that i can go do the work to go retrieve that item, and then i can go fulfill the buy order, and that it will happen?
That's just ridiculous.
people are not understanding the difference between what you should be able to trust and what you should not.
people are not understanding the difference between what is a scam and what is an exploit.
people are not understanding the difference between "intelligence" and "intuition".
Plain and simple - this is a problem, and there are lots of viable fixes. Trouble is, it looks like the topic is far too clouded with verbal battles to allow the very viable proposals that people have made to get fair discussion.
Clearly, the margin trading concept was a nifty idea that has legitimate uses, but it has a flaw that allows it to BREAK THE GAME. and BADLY. "very" badly, in fact. - normally when such a thing is found, it is fixed. Especially when there are ways to fix it that dont break anytihng.
Cant we talk about how to fix this properly? |
GreenSeed
25
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 01:39:00 -
[57] - Quote
Antigena wrote:GreenSeed wrote: you are not supposed to "trust" anything...
So... I'm not supposed to "trust" that when I click something on the UI, that thing happens? I'm not supposed to "trust" that when I click the "quit game" button on the escape screen that the program will exit? I'm not supposed to "trust" that when i want to buy a ship and i have the isk, that i can say "buy this" and it happens? I'm not supposed to trust that if there is a buy order posted by someone who has decided they want to buy an item for a certain price, that i can go do the work to go retrieve that item, and then i can go fulfill the buy order, and that it will happen? That's just ridiculous. people are not understanding the difference between what you should be able to trust and what you should not. people are not understanding the difference between what is a scam and what is an exploit. people are not understanding the difference between "intelligence" and "intuition". Plain and simple - this is a problem, and there are lots of viable fixes. Trouble is, it looks like the topic is far too clouded with verbal battles to allow the very viable proposals that people have made to get fair discussion. Clearly, the margin trading concept was a nifty idea that has legitimate uses, but it has a flaw that allows it to BREAK THE GAME. and BADLY. "very" badly, in fact. - normally when such a thing is found, it is fixed. Especially when there are ways to fix it that dont break anytihng. Cant we talk about how to fix this properly?
no, we can't talk about fixing something that isn't broken. you complain of the market information the same way newbies were complaining about faction ship scams.
houndreds of thousands of idiots fell for dominixes renamed "Navy Dominix". untill in adition to the information on the damn "show info" window CCP added the Faction icon...
ofc, nowdays idiots still fall for faction scams buying Navy Megas renamed "vindicator". because its too much work to right click the damn ship before accepting the contract.
the problem is, unlike with ships, all the information you need is shown on the SAME window... so theres noone to blame but your own stupidity if you fall for one of those buy orders. and yeah, i said buy orders, not scams... because they are frikken buy orders. get over it.
im dead tired of repeating this, but i have to, ppl like you will never understand how this buy orders aren't scams utill you see that the market window is NOT "the market" it's just a listing of buy and sell orders. you can trust the information it shows because its real, the buy orders are there. now if you confuse them with the real price points of the goods you are trading, you deserve to go broke and go live under a bridge. |
myFORUMalt alts
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
53
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Posted - 2012.03.05 01:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
Just so you know the eve market IS made of buy and sell orders
Oh, and there is an information window that indicates who the buyer is, and what his current wallet balance is. Can you show me this window.
Tool
Yes, I complain about things I don't like. |
GreenSeed
25
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Posted - 2012.03.05 02:36:00 -
[59] - Quote
myFORUMalt alts wrote:Just so you know the eve market IS made of buy and sell orders
no, thats the information that the market window shows, the market isnt limited to it.
myFORUMalt alts wrote: Oh, and there is an information window that indicates who the buyer is, and what his current wallet balance is. Can you show me this window.
Tool
that information isnt displayed because you dont need to know it.
is the price over the price point you estimate from the information on the market history?
if it is, then its your call to decide wheter you fill that buy order or not. if you're a producer unloading your stuff on jita you dont really care, you just hit sell and if you like the price you hit "ok". if at any point a buy order has no isk to back it, it falls and you get another confirmation prompt for the next one. makes NO difference to honest sellers to find botched orders on jita.
NOW if you think youre clever and want to play station trader buying some crap off a contract to fill market order then its your choice and an informed one it is... the orders where there, the market history was there, hell even the fact thet the market buy order and the sell contract were on the same station is something to take into account.
if you decide to fill that buy order by buying low and selling high, then YOU are marging trading, and that has risks. one being having that buy order fall, get furfilled by someone else, or getting stuck with a bunch of useless Elite Drone AIs, or whatever you got scammed with.
im sorry if this offends you but where you see a scam i just see stupidity. |
Ravenesa
The Bastards The Bastards.
22
|
Posted - 2012.03.05 22:08:00 -
[60] - Quote
The Tags or other rare/low volume items make this an obvious scam for the uninformed, however you can use meta0 items to do the same thing. Raw ISK potential may not be there, but the amount of people that will fall for it goes up sharply. I know a few people that routinely pull in a few hundred million using everything from minerals to Meta1-4 items that are common rat drops sold on the market at or slightly above their mineral values. 20-50k an item, but done in batches of 100's works just as well. |
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