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Szap Light
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Posted - 2007.12.08 17:44:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Szap Light on 08/12/2007 17:47:25 Edited by: Szap Light on 08/12/2007 17:46:41 So are they too weak? I did some calculating in another thread and i think as this thread was whineing and flaming anyways i wont be able to do a decent discussion on the topic so i will grab my infos and repost them here. First I compared Torp and cruise launchers (all t2) with blasters and railguns. Only the base values of course. If someone could do this for both Lasers and Both projectile weapons i wouldn't have to do it :)
rof is rate of fire; dmg is Damage; base means without skills or anything 1 siege launcher 2 (14.4 sec base rof) with Rage torpedoes (540 base damage) = 540/14.4 = 37.5 dps same with javelin torp (380 base dmg) = 380/14.4 = 26.39 dps
1 Cruise launcher T2 (17.6 sec base rof) with Fury CM (345 base dmg) = 345/ 17.6 = 19.6dps Javelin CM (260 base dmg) = 260 / 17.6 = 14.77dps
Blasters: 1 Heavy Neutron Blaster t2 (base ROF 5.25 sec base dmg Modifier 4.2)with Void L (56 base dmg) = 56 * 4.2 / 5.25 = 44.8 dps Null L (44 base dmg) = 44 * 4.2 / 5.25 = 35.2 dps
Railguns: 425mm railgun 2 (damage modifier 3.3 base rof 9.56 sec)with Javelin L (56 base dmg) = 56 * 3.3 / 9.56 = 19.33dps Spike L (32 base dmg) = 32 * 3.3 / 9.56 = 11.05 dps
Then i calulated the misterious 1000 dps torpedolaunching ship. I have to say that i am completely unsure if this calculation is at all right. but nevertheless here it is:
Navy Raven with 7 launchers = 37.5 dps * 7 Which skills affect the damage? Raven ship bonus on lvl 5: 25 rof bonus = 25% damage bonus= 1.25 modifier Skills: (all counted on 5) Torpedo spec: 10% rof = 1.10 Missile launcher op: 10% rof = 1.10 Torpedoes: 25% damage= 1.25 Rapid Launch: 15% rof = 1.15 Warhead Upgrades : 10% damage = 1.10
Modules on the ship: maximum 2 warhead calefaction catalysts : (+stacking penalty)17.385% = 1.17385 5 BCUs: 10% rof 10.5% dmg each (with stacking penaltys that is: 1.37532 Damage and 1.309902253 to Rof
Implants: found a 5% rof hardwiring on slot 10 and a 5% torp damage hardwiring on slot 6 1.05 ^ 2
I am not sure if the stacking penalty is applied to the bonus of the rigs and BCUs combined or if this is true for implant bonusses and bcus and so on. i am calculating without this. if it were true i think the result would be about 20% lower.
Final Calculation: 37.5 * 7 * (1.05 ^ 2) * (1.10 ^3) * 1.15 * (1.25 ^ 2) * 1.17385 * 1.37532 *1.309902253 (calulated with goole) 37.5 * 7 * (1.05^2) * (1.10^3) * 1.15 * (1.25^2) * 1.17385 * 1.37532 * 1.309902253 = 1 463.72362
same thing for normal raven: 1 254.62024
so ok you got 1460 dps with a caldari navy raven with t2 launchers rage torpedoes and maximum rigs on damage maximum ballistic controls and maximum implants and all skills on 5 is
Edit: Same normal raven with Javelin torps: 882.918085 Navy with javelin torps: 1 030.0711
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.12.08 18:42:00 -
[2]
Where is "too weak" in this? If anything I'd say too powerful.
Yes you are far lower than Blasters but then that Neutron Blaster has an optimal of about 7km. You FAR outrange it with cruise. His DPS past 17km or so will be zero. Cruise DPS will be the same point blank or 60km away.
Now compare your cruise to the rails. They outdamage the rails. Have no tracking issues. No falloff issues. Travel time to target at long range is the only downside.
Seems more than fine for missile users to me (not to mention training up missiles is far simpler than for guns).
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Plekto
Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.12.08 19:02:00 -
[3]
q: how fast does an enemy ship have to be going to outrun your missile's fuel supply? How fast to cause it to spend half of its fuel catching up(assuming it's orbiting).
Answer that you you'll see why they are nearly useless in actual PVP versus anything other than capitol class ships. 1000dps in some theoretical situation on the slowest BS in the game that can't get that close in the first place is all meaningless if the missile doesn't detonate.
ie - 1000DPS on paper translates into 0 DPS versus a ship going 1500m/sec. Since the Raven here has max skills, the enemy ship has to also have max skills in propulsion and a couple of rigs and overdrives. AND, he's got the MWD on overload, of course. All he has to do is get going a bit over 1500m/sec and you can't hit him.
Wait - that's not max skills! That's one rig, two overdrives, basic skills(nothing more than level 3), and a 100mn MWD on overload.
Newbie setup just changed your max skill character's Raven DPS to *ZERO*. In a BS, no less. In a BC or a Cruiser... you might as well be shooting blanks unless they are very stupid and practically let you bump them.
The problem isn't the range. It's that it takes the torpedo too long to get there. Actually use this versus peolpe and you'll see what I mean. Rails and Blasters and the rest hit instantly by comparison.
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DOARota
Gallente Drones Of Annihilation. Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.12.08 19:11:00 -
[4]
Don't forget that turret ships won't be hitting a fast orbiting target either. Void is pretty much useless, gets a horrible tracking penalty so shouldn't be used for your damage calculations. If the addage of webbing a target and shooting it with void is used, it will also work to web it and use torps too. A disruptor will bork the turret, nothing will affect the torp. Seem unfair?
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Plekto
Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.12.08 19:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: DOARota Don't forget that turret ships won't be hitting a fast orbiting target either. Void is pretty much useless, gets a horrible tracking penalty so shouldn't be used for your damage calculations.
Remember, we're talking hitting a moving BS. It will hit unless you have raw newbie skills.
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Aion Amarra
Minmatar Ascent of Ages Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.12.08 19:42:00 -
[6]
Quote: Raven ship bonus on lvl 5: 25 rof bonus = 25% damage bonus= 1.25 modifier
Lolwhat?
A 25% RoF bonus reduces the refire time by that amount.
For simplicity, lets take a hypothetical missile launcher with 4 second RoF. In twelve seconds, that would be three missiles. Now reduce the RoF by 25%. The launcher now fires one missile every 3 seconds, or FOUR missiles in twelve seconds. That means that with a 25% RoF reduction, the launcher effectively launchers one THIRD (33.33%) more missiles in the same time frame.
25% RoF bonus equals about a 33.33% damage bonus.
It's similar for all the other RoF bonuses you listed. 10% RoF bonus increases DoT by about 11.11%, 15% RoF increases damage by 17.64%.
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.08 20:29:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Plekto
Originally by: DOARota Don't forget that turret ships won't be hitting a fast orbiting target either. Void is pretty much useless, gets a horrible tracking penalty so shouldn't be used for your damage calculations.
Remember, we're talking hitting a moving BS. It will hit unless you have raw newbie skills.
Stop posting that ******** scenario that NEVER happens. What BS is going to orbit you at 1500m/s outside webrange? He cant hit you and he will cap out real quick. What purpose would it serve?
Nano-bs doesnt exist anymore except to bump with.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.08 20:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Plekto Edited by: Plekto on 08/12/2007 19:19:11 q: how fast does an enemy ship have to be going to outrun your missile's fuel supply? How fast to cause it to spend half of its fuel catching up(assuming it's orbiting).
Answer that you you'll see why they are nearly useless in actual PVP versus anything other than capitol class ships. 1000dps in some theoretical situation on the slowest BS in the game that can't get that close in the first place is all meaningless if the missile doesn't detonate.
ie - 1000DPS on paper translates into 0 DPS versus a ship going 1500m/sec. Since the Raven here has max skills, the enemy ship has to also have max skills in propulsion and a couple of rigs and overdrives. AND, he's got the MWD on overload, of course. All he has to do is get going a bit over 1500m/sec and you can't hit him.
Wait - that's not max skills! That's one rig, two overdrives, basic skills(nothing more than level 3), and a 100mn MWD on overload.
Newbie setup just changed your max skill character's Raven DPS to *ZERO*. In a BS, no less. In a BC or a Cruiser... you might as well be shooting blanks unless they are very stupid and practically let you bump them.
The problem isn't the range. It's that it takes the torpedo too long to get there. Actually use this versus peolpe and you'll see what I mean. Rails and Blasters and the rest hit instantly by comparison.
EDIT: Also, this stupid scenario assumes that the guy will sit there slugging it out with you. Here's what really happens:
- I see a Raven and it's at 20km. It fires at me. I engage my MWD on overload and pilot away at from him at a tangent(quickest route away).
- I get hit by one or two volleys and then my BS is out of his range. If he follows me with his MWD on to catch me, because I'm already going faster than his missiles can go, his missiles will trail behind him and have a range of zero.
ie - the faster he goes to catch me/stay in range, the more range he loses - and quickly. 1000m/sec on your part makes his misiles have an effective speed of 500-800m/sec.
Every time I've tested this with other people, a simple turn on the MWD tactic foils all the DPS in the world.
The missiles are just too slow to be useable, since now with rigs, ANY BS or smaller ship can go over 1000m/sec.
Nice scenario, but then what are you doing to the Raven? if you are in a ship with short ranged weapons you will be too far away to do anything, if you have a long range set up and the raven a short range, I doubt he will stay to be killed.
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ElweSingollo
Starlancers Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.12.08 22:56:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Plekto Edited by: Plekto on 08/12/2007 19:19:11 q: how fast does an enemy ship have to be going to outrun your missile's fuel supply? How fast to cause it to spend half of its fuel catching up(assuming it's orbiting).
Answer that you you'll see why they are nearly useless in actual PVP versus anything other than capitol class ships. 1000dps in some theoretical situation on the slowest BS in the game that can't get that close in the first place is all meaningless if the missile doesn't detonate.
ie - 1000DPS on paper translates into 0 DPS versus a ship going 1500m/sec. Since the Raven here has max skills, the enemy ship has to also have max skills in propulsion and a couple of rigs and overdrives. AND, he's got the MWD on overload, of course. All he has to do is get going a bit over 1500m/sec and you can't hit him.
Wait - that's not max skills! That's one rig, two overdrives, basic skills(nothing more than level 3), and a 100mn MWD on overload.
Newbie setup just changed your max skill character's Raven DPS to *ZERO*. In a BS, no less. In a BC or a Cruiser... you might as well be shooting blanks unless they are very stupid and practically let you bump them.
The problem isn't the range. It's that it takes the torpedo too long to get there. Actually use this versus peolpe and you'll see what I mean. Rails and Blasters and the rest hit instantly by comparison.
EDIT: Also, this stupid scenario assumes that the guy will sit there slugging it out with you. Here's what really happens:
- I see a Raven and it's at 20km. It fires at me. I engage my MWD on overload and pilot away at from him at a tangent(quickest route away).
- I get hit by one or two volleys and then my BS is out of his range. If he follows me with his MWD on to catch me, because I'm already going faster than his missiles can go, his missiles will trail behind him and have a range of zero.
ie - the faster he goes to catch me/stay in range, the more range he loses - and quickly. 1000m/sec on your part makes his misiles have an effective speed of 500-800m/sec.
Every time I've tested this with other people, a simple turn on the MWD tactic foils all the DPS in the world.
The missiles are just too slow to be useable, since now with rigs, ANY BS or smaller ship can go over 1000m/sec.
lol yeah I can really see me orbiting in my abaddon at 1.5kps and hitting you everytime with mega pulse ( thats with 9 mil in gunnery btw) or not as the case certainly is.
Nano b/s often had one major thing in common they relied on "siege launchers" (before change) and Nos and drones to kill there target and any turret based b/ship orbiting you at 1.5kps may as well forget about hitting you 90% of the time
CCP and Eve Online... It's not a bug, it's a feature
In Before I Get M***** Again
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Szap Light
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Posted - 2007.12.09 10:48:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Aion Amarra
Quote: Raven ship bonus on lvl 5: 25 rof bonus = 25% damage bonus= 1.25 modifier
Lolwhat?
A 25% RoF bonus reduces the refire time by that amount.
For simplicity, lets take a hypothetical missile launcher with 4 second RoF. In twelve seconds, that would be three missiles. Now reduce the RoF by 25%. The launcher now fires one missile every 3 seconds, or FOUR missiles in twelve seconds. That means that with a 25% RoF reduction, the launcher effectively launchers one THIRD (33.33%) more missiles in the same time frame.
25% RoF bonus equals about a 33.33% damage bonus.
It's similar for all the other RoF bonuses you listed. 10% RoF bonus increases DoT by about 11.11%, 15% RoF increases damage by 17.64%.
Oh god ^^ i havent thought about this tbh so i would have to rewright the whole calculation. But jeah i think the point is you can reach a very high DPS with torps but only if your enemy is webbed and scrambd and painted (for rage torps doing their max damage) i saw such a setup on the testserver with a golem. Rage torps + painter + web + dev with max skills :D equals 2000 damage per torp (on shields with 0% em resists). but as you said next time i just brought a mwd on my kronos and he could not hit me too good.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.09 11:35:00 -
[11]
The new torps are overpowered. Crystal set + Raven + torps that don't use cap ftl.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.09 13:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Szap Light
Originally by: Aion Amarra
Quote: Raven ship bonus on lvl 5: 25 rof bonus = 25% damage bonus= 1.25 modifier
Lolwhat?
A 25% RoF bonus reduces the refire time by that amount.
For simplicity, lets take a hypothetical missile launcher with 4 second RoF. In twelve seconds, that would be three missiles. Now reduce the RoF by 25%. The launcher now fires one missile every 3 seconds, or FOUR missiles in twelve seconds. That means that with a 25% RoF reduction, the launcher effectively launchers one THIRD (33.33%) more missiles in the same time frame.
25% RoF bonus equals about a 33.33% damage bonus.
It's similar for all the other RoF bonuses you listed. 10% RoF bonus increases DoT by about 11.11%, 15% RoF increases damage by 17.64%.
Oh god ^^ i havent thought about this tbh so i would have to rewright the whole calculation. But jeah i think the point is you can reach a very high DPS with torps but only if your enemy is webbed and scrambd and painted (for rage torps doing their max damage) i saw such a setup on the testserver with a golem. Rage torps + painter + web + dev with max skills :D equals 2000 damage per torp (on shields with 0% em resists). but as you said next time i just brought a mwd on my kronos and he could not hit me too good.
Or if the target is a blaster or AC ship that need to get near to attack you, well within your torp range for example?
A gunship orbiting you at MDW speed probably will outrun your torpedos, but it will miss so much of his shots to be useless, especially with the tracking computer nerf (putting in the script for tracking mean that the ship will lose on range, so it is a trade off, with blaster being in a very bad position).
I am sure that getting the torpedos range by 80% his hard, but they are now more in line with the other short range weapons.
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