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Pazcal
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Posted - 2007.12.11 03:48:00 -
[1]
Javelin torpedoes were the only long range torpedoes thus the name "Javelin". Now there aren't any long range torpedoes. Reducing the max. flight time from 30 seconds to 5 seconds was way to overdo it, this makes them go nowhere now. On top of that the max. velocity is reduced too. To compensate this by increasing the firerate of launchers does not help a bit if the torpedoes never reach their targets. It took people a lot of time to train the appropriate skills to pefect the use of these. This is a quite serious matter I think.
That's why I want someone at CCP to look into this, perhaps a mistake was made.
It would be very kind of you [CCP] if you could forward this problem to the proper staff in order to resolve this issue.
best regards Pazcal
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Tek'a Rain
Gallente Isis Technologies
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Posted - 2007.12.11 04:01:00 -
[2]
if you want to fire over lone range.. use long range missles.
simple.
blasters/rails. torpedoes/cruise. short range/long range. high damage/less high damage.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.12.11 04:14:00 -
[3]
Well, the guy does sort of have a point. If you look at rockets and HAMs compared to torps, the differences are quite striking.
Javelin rockets have -10% raw DPS and almost triple (*2.88) range compared to regular rockets. Javelin HAMs have -15% raw DPS and more than quadruple the range (*4.08) compared to regular HAMs. Javelin torps have -15.55% raw DPS and barely half extra range (*1.5) compared to regular torps.
It's like somebody meant to write "15 sec flight time" and made a typo, entering "5 sec" instead for javelin torps. 1|2|3|4|5. |
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.12.11 04:26:00 -
[4]
Would be nice to hear a dev response on this. Even if jav torps were given similar range to jav hams @ a cost of -50% dps or some other penalty, it's just nice for torp users to be able to swap to a long range when needed. |
J'ghathii
Caldari 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.12.11 04:35:00 -
[5]
You don't hear of any Gallente players whining that their blasters don't hit out to 50km+ or any Minmatar pilots complaining that their auto-cannons don't fall off to 80km, now do you? Why do you whine about Torps not hitting 75km+?
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Haakelen
Gallente United Forces Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.12.11 04:41:00 -
[6]
Originally by: J'ghathii You don't hear of any Gallente players whining that their blasters don't hit out to 50km+ or any Minmatar pilots complaining that their auto-cannons don't fall off to 80km, now do you? Why do you whine about Torps not hitting 75km+?
Posted basically what I was going to say .
Your high-DPS weapon type now does high DPS. A consequence of high DPS in this game is short range. Fit an MWD like everyone else, or use cruises.
[ 2007.12.06 03:05:25 ] (combat) EVE Online belonging to CCP strikes you perfectly, wrecking your computer. |
Lazuran
Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2007.12.11 04:43:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Akita T Well, the guy does sort of have a point. If you look at rockets and HAMs compared to torps, the differences are quite striking.
Javelin rockets have -10% raw DPS and almost triple (*2.88) range compared to regular rockets. Javelin HAMs have -15% raw DPS and more than quadruple the range (*4.08) compared to regular HAMs. Javelin torps have -15.55% raw DPS and barely half extra range (*1.5) compared to regular torps.
It's like somebody meant to write "15 sec flight time" and made a typo, entering "5 sec" instead for javelin torps.
I agree, rockets and HAMs need to be looked at. Someone probably made a mistake when he gave such ranges to the long range T2 ammo.
"...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007) |
DarthJosh
DEATHFUNK Chaos Incarnate.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 05:22:00 -
[8]
as a pvper, i love the new torps! good job ccp -
Desusigs! |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.12.11 05:23:00 -
[9]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 11/12/2007 05:24:17
Originally by: J'ghathii You don't hear of any Gallente players whining that their blasters don't hit out to 50km+ or any Minmatar pilots complaining that their auto-cannons don't fall off to 80km, now do you? Why do you whine about Torps not hitting 75km+?
well then I'll take away your 80% range boost tech 2 ammo.
The op is not whining about hitting at 100km.
the op is bring up a good point, every race has short range guns and long range guns. every race has long range and short range ammo.
thus, he has a good point, where are the lower dps long range torps??
HE IS NOT WHINING ABOUT TORP RANGE!
sure we don't get 50km range on balsters but what would be wrong with the jav torp reaching out to say... 50km? if you know your stuff you know the drawbacks to using them are heavy, so they should give you something.
it's still a really slow weapon. plus the drawbacks. it can't hit anything small.
?I still wouldn't use them but ...
Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi |
Hait
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Posted - 2007.12.11 05:38:00 -
[10]
Your lower dps long range torps are called cruise/ |
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umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Fnck the blob.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 05:42:00 -
[11]
Get an MWD.
God I hate caldari.
If you dont like it use a Rokh.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.12.11 05:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hait Your lower dps long range torps are called cruise/
so you don't agree with tech 2 ammo increasing my turrets by 80%? because I should just use long range weapons?
yes yes cruise missles woo long range missles torps equal higher dps short range
tech two torps equal being able to hit far away while still having torp launchers fitted.
in other words you can fit 80% range bonus ammo on small guns. are you saying I should just use the medium guns and that tech 2 ammo is unfair?
Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.12.11 05:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: umop 3pisdn Get an MWD.
God I hate caldari.
If you dont like it use a Rokh.
wow! no one is reading the op at all!
good jorb forums your not at your peak today.
Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.12.11 06:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hait Your lower dps long range torps are called cruise/
And low dps long range blasters are called rails, after your logic. Hey, how about we compare instead pulse lasers with torpedoes (since they are the longest-range short-range weapons around) loaded with Conflag, Multifrequency and Scorch against ammo selection of Rage, T1 and Javelin torps respectively then ?
Conflag vs Multifrequency, same range, -50% tracking for +16.6% raw DPS. Rage vs T1, almost identical range, slightly worse radius/velo, +20% raw DPS.
Scorch vs Multifrequency, triple optimal (falloff negligible), -25% tracking for -8.3% raw DPS (and worse damage combo). Javelin vs T1, +50% range, slightly better radius/velo, -15.55% raw DPS.
1|2|3|4|5. |
umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Fnck the blob.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 06:22:00 -
[15]
Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 11/12/2007 06:24:52 Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 11/12/2007 06:22:55 Torps are meant to be short range.
Now they are.
Comparing them to other weapons and crying when you get very comparable DPS but without the hassle of silly things like tracking/falloff (half your damage at range? bet you'd love that on missles) and cap use to worry about.
Dont javelins also get a precision bonus? or was that removed.
Perhaps that is their new intended role, hitting smaller crap.
If you can hit for full damage from 50km away then you will still be unbalanced as far as close range weapons go.
And dont compare javelin to spike, compare it null and see how you go on anything thats not a rokh.
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bldyannoyed
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2007.12.11 06:36:00 -
[16]
Edited by: bldyannoyed on 11/12/2007 06:37:01 With all skills at 5:
Siege II on a Raven with Jav = 70 DPS at 45 KM
800 II on a Pest with Barrage = 66 DPS at 6KM, or 33DPS at 36 KM.
Neutron Blaster II on a Mega with Null = 64DPS at 11KM or 32 DPS at 27KM.
Mega Pulse II on a Geddon with Scorch = 59DPS at 45 KM or 26DPS at 55KM.
So what exactly was your problem again?
EDIT: Actually, having thought about it, NERF JAVELINS.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.12.11 06:39:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 11/12/2007 06:41:15
Hmmm.. Before torps got 'range nerfed' if you used a raven in pvp then 'lulz n00b' in local would be about the best you could hope to achive.. Now that they actually do awesome damage (at close range like every other races high dps weapon..) those same guys that would lulz at you after wtfpwning your raven are now looking at their pod floating in space going 'wtf just happened?'
Yeah torps really got it up the arse..
Originally by: bldyannoyed EDIT: Actually, having thought about it, NERF JAVELINS.
STFU n00b..
Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.12.11 06:40:00 -
[18]
Fine, let's compare then T2 blasters with Void, AM and Null then.
You can't completely ignore falloff on blasters, since the falloff is comparable to optimal regardless of ammo. Since at optimal+falloff the DPS falls slightly under 40% of normal, I'll use optimal+0.5*falloff in calculations, for "still decent" DPS output.
Now, depending on type of blaster cannon, you get slightly different results (ions have 80% optimal vs falloff, electrons 75%, neutrons 72%), so let's just use electrons as reference.
Void vs AM, you get roughly -8% range and half tracking, for roughly +16.6% DPS. Null vs AM, you get roughly +77% range and -25% tracking, for roughly -8% DPS. Hmmz... still, overall, I'd argue, blaster ammo selection is better as torp ammo selection.
1|2|3|4|5. |
bldyannoyed
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2007.12.11 06:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Akita T Fine, let's compare then T2 blasters with Void, AM and Null then.
You can't completely ignore falloff on blasters, since the falloff is comparable to optimal regardless of ammo. Since at optimal+falloff the DPS falls slightly under 40% of normal, I'll use optimal+0.5*falloff in calculations, for "still decent" DPS output.
Now, depending on type of blaster cannon, you get slightly different results (ions have 80% optimal vs falloff, electrons 75%, neutrons 72%), so let's just use electrons as reference.
Void vs AM, you get roughly -8% range and half tracking, for roughly +16.6% DPS. Null vs AM, you get roughly +77% range and -25% tracking, for roughly -8% DPS. Hmmz... still, overall, I'd argue, blaster ammo selection is better as torp ammo selection.
How can it possibly be better?
You realise that a Javelin does as much DPS at 45KM as a Neutron Blaster does at 4.5KM loaded with ANTIMATTER?
How can you possibly believe Javelins need any kind of buff?
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umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Fnck the blob.
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Posted - 2007.12.11 06:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Akita T
Void vs AM, you get roughly -8% range and half tracking, for roughly +16.6% DPS. Null vs AM, you get roughly +77% range and -25% tracking, for roughly -8% DPS. Hmmz... still, overall, I'd argue, blaster ammo selection is better as torp ammo selection.
I get the feeling you've never used large blasters.
With void you will miss battleships if you are moving more than a few hundred metres a second unless they are stationary and directly in front of you.
You need that speed to get into web range and start hurting them.
Missles are ****** easy to use, they need far more nerfs than those provided in this patch.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.12.11 06:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: bldyannoyed With all skills at 5: Siege II on a Raven with Jav = 70 DPS at 45 KM 800 II on a Pest with Barrage = 66 DPS at 6KM, or 33DPS at 36 KM. Neutron Blaster II on a Mega with Null = 64DPS at 11KM or 32 DPS at 27KM. Mega Pulse II on a Geddon with Scorch = 59DPS at 45 KM or 26DPS at 55KM. So what exactly was your problem again? EDIT: Actually, having thought about it, NERF JAVELINS.
Oh, aren't we forgetting something ? Like, oh, I don't know, number of high/turret/launcher slots, or dronebay capacity ? And other stuff, like, for instance, PG/CPU limitations ?
We were NOT comparing Blasters vs Torps vs other short range weapons. We were comparing relative reach/dps/effectiveness of shortT2/shortT1/longT2 ammo. You know, as in "Void vs AM vs Null, compared to Rage vs T1 vs Javelin", and not "Void vs Rage". OK ?
1|2|3|4|5. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.12.11 06:55:00 -
[22]
Originally by: bldyannoyed How can you possibly believe Javelins need any kind of buff?
They need a buff compared to T1 torpedoes. Now, if this means nerfing T1 torpedoes in the process, fine by me.
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Captain Agemman
Minmatar Legio Ultra
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Posted - 2007.12.11 07:13:00 -
[23]
Reduce the range of torps with all skills at 5 to the optimal range of neutron blaster cannon II, and I can agree with a range-boost for javelin torps over t1 torps by the same percentage as with blasters and void.
But as the range of torps is already very high for a close range weapon system, a 77% range increase would mean to much of a dps decrease. Also it would add a bit too much versatility.
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Tyrantus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.12.11 07:17:00 -
[24]
Torps are so obviously usless I'm simply at a loss for words.
Oh wait.
2007.12.04 14:53:00
Victim: NightmareX Alliance: The Church. Corp: Infinitus Odium Destroyed: Tempest System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 32958
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imperial Academy Ship: Raven Weapon: Mjolnir Torpedo Damage Done: 27660
2007.12.04 09:37:00
Victim: April Foley Alliance: NONE Corp: Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force Destroyed: Abaddon System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 32488
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imperial Academy Ship: Raven Weapon: Bane Torpedo Damage Done: 16737
2007.12.04 07:35:00
Victim: Krikin Alliance: Mercenary Services Corp: The Coalition Of Buccaneers Destroyed: Hyperion System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 29376
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imperial Academy Ship: Raven Weapon: Bane Torpedo Damage Done: 29376
2007.12.01 13:56:00
Victim: afonsoericeira Alliance: NONE Corp: V i r u s Destroyed: Hyperion System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 29111
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imperial Academy Ship: Raven Weapon: Bane Torpedo Damage Done: 29111
2007.12.01 13:26:00
Victim: Faltzs Alliance: Hydra Alliance Corp: Fracked Inc Destroyed: Hyperion System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 42355
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imperial Academy Ship: Raven Weapon: Bane Torpedo Damage Done: 18592
2007.11.30 07:00:00
Victim: Grigori Sokolov Alliance: NONE Corp: HULL DAMAGE Destroyed: Megathron System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 37282
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imperial Academy Ship: Raven Weapon: Bane Torpedo Damage Done: 37195
2007.11.28 13:30:00
Victim: Haceldema Alliance: NONE Corp: Uberfiend Destroyed: Typhoon System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 58998
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imperial Academy Ship: Raven Weapon: Bane Torpedo Damage Done: 58998
2007.11.28 12:49:00
Victim: JonShannow Alliance: NONE Corp: Regante Destroyed: Raven System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 42350
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imperial Academy Ship: Raven Weapon: Mjolnir Torpedo Damage Done: 42350
2007.11.28 11:40:00
Victim: TiMeZeRo225 Alliance: NONE Corp: Caldari Provisions Destroyed: Raven System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 56899
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imperial Academy Ship: Raven Weapon: Mjolnir Torpedo Damage Done: 38993
2007.11.28 11:11:00
Victim: OzDeaDMeaT Alliance: NONE Corp: The Goodies Destroyed: Deimos System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 18822
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imperial Academy Ship: Raven Weapon: Bane Torpedo Damage Done: 11917
2007.11.28 10:55:00
Victim: Phantom Phenix Alliance: NONE Corp: Doom Guard Destroyed: Armageddon System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 59996
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imperial Academy Ship: Raven Weapon: Bane Torpedo Damage Done: 51789
2007.11.28 09:32:00
Victim: CCP Redundancy Alliance: NONE Corp: C C P Destroyed: Infested Dominix System: FD-MLJ Security: 0.0 Damage Taken: 5740
Involved parties:
Name: Tyrantus (laid the final blow) Security: 4.0 Alliance: NONE Corp: Imper
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.12.11 07:23:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Tyrantus Torps are so obviously usless I'm simply at a loss for words. Oh wait. [...]
Kills upon kills with T1 torps. I don't see you using Javelins in any of them Which was kind of like the point of it all.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Haakelen
Gallente United Forces Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.12.11 07:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Akita T Fine, let's compare then T2 blasters with Void, AM and Null then...
... Void vs AM, you get roughly -8% range and half tracking, for roughly +16.6% DPS. Null vs AM, you get roughly +77% range and -25% tracking, for roughly -8% DPS. Hmmz... still, overall, I'd argue, blaster ammo selection is better as torp ammo selection.
The problem is that numbers don't let you adequately visualize the situation. 77% range bonus sounds great. However, the range on Blasters is (correctly) short. High DPS = Low range. Assuming maxed skills, your base optimal in a Megathron is 9km. T1 torps with maxed skills are 30.4, and do more damage.
Blaster ammo selection is better? Hardly. The only situation in which blasters have a raw advantage over torps now is with the 'long range' ammo, which provides a few DPS more than Javelins do. Of course, blasters with Null are good out to about 25, and Javelins are good out to 45.
Torps getting more DPS is great. Adds more spice to the game, there's nothing wrong with that at all. Cut range 30% and it's fine. Then they'll have greater DPS and more range than blasters, certainly you can't complain about that?
[ 2007.12.06 03:05:25 ] (combat) EVE Online belonging to CCP strikes you perfectly, wrecking your computer. |
Tyrantus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.12.11 07:29:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Tyrantus Torps are so obviously usless I'm simply at a loss for words. Oh wait. [...]
Kills upon kills with T1 torps. I don't see you using Javelins in any of them Which was kind of like the point of it all.
Yeah I know but I only had torps 3 on the test server. (Have cruise 5 but thats not really revelant.) I'm going to assume that when I get to T2 it will be even better. And whats funny is that I'm just a nub level 4 mission and cosmos raven alt.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.12.11 07:36:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Haakelen Blaster ammo selection is better? Hardly. The only situation in which blasters have a raw advantage over torps now is with the 'long range' ammo, which provides a few DPS more than Javelins do. Of course, blasters with Null are good out to about 25, and Javelins are good out to 45.
Torps getting more DPS is great. Adds more spice to the game, there's nothing wrong with that at all. Cut range 30% and it's fine. Then they'll have greater DPS and more range than blasters, certainly you can't complain about that?
Why do people keep assuming I mean "buff javelin range" when I quote all these numbers ? And that after stating it's not the case. Hell, nerf T1 torpedo range even more for all I care
The whole point was to make Javelins useful in some way compared to T1s. Heck, T2 ammo in general could stand a huge buff now compared to T1, especially with faction ammo around.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Tyrantus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.12.11 07:41:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Akita T The whole point was to make Javelins useful in some way compared to T1s. Heck, T2 ammo in general could stand a huge buff now compared to T1, especially with faction ammo around.
Understandable. I have a pvp alt too and I can't really think of many situations that faction ammo won't come out on top compared to T2 when all factors are considered.
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Haakelen
Gallente United Forces Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.12.11 07:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Akita T
The whole point was to make Javelins useful in some way compared to T1s.
Ah, I see. I wouldn't disagree, then. IMO, Javelins should be right around where they are right now with range and damage, but T1 should be significantly worse. Maybe (Assuming maxed skills), 20km / 72 DPS. Then there'd be a legitimate use for the Javs.
Quote:
Heck, T2 ammo in general could stand a huge buff now compared to T1, especially with faction ammo around.
Just boost T2 weapons/ammo period. Make it a bit more worthwhile and stealth boost invention / stealth nerf mission farming. On reflection, I agree with basically everything you've said.
I should learn to read better .
[ 2007.12.06 03:05:25 ] (combat) EVE Online belonging to CCP strikes you perfectly, wrecking your computer. |
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