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Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.12.12 04:39:00 -
[31]
I assume 'playing the 0.1 game' refers to obsessively updating your order by .1 each time to always be the lowest guy.
I will undercut someone by 0.1, but then I leave it as is for a decent amount of time. If he undercuts me after a respectable amount of time, so be it, I'll wait a decent amount of time to undercut him, and then just by the 0.1 again.
I'm not doing it to be a ****, I'm doing it so that we can both have a slice of the pie without sending prices hurtling in a new direction. Typically my sell orders will be an order of magnitude smaller than his also, so he really doesn't need to feel very threatened. You sell some, then I sell some. Seems to usually work out.
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Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.12.12 06:25:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Nyphur I don't play the 0.01 isk game. Instead, I predict how high the price will rise on an upward trend and then put up sell orders just below this so that when prices do rise that much, my product is consumed by ordinary buyers. This works best for products on a weekly/monthly cyclical price scheme.
I routinely do this, as well, and laugh as the people who pushed the prices down by undercutting by large amounts get bought up at a fraction of the price my goods get bought at.
For a recent example, check out Armor Plates (the salvaged material).
MP --
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression! |
Dimitri Chandler
Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.12.12 06:30:00 -
[33]
I spread my stuff across many many stations and charge what the hell I like.
Fluffled -Suvetar "There is nothing as disconcerting as being bear-hugged by a giant Icelandic man in a kilt." |
Umami
Minmatar U.P.I.
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Posted - 2007.12.12 07:39:00 -
[34]
If someone raises an order by .1 isk or by 10,000 isk doesn't matter if you still makes a profit. The frequency of order changes will still be the same usually. Take Ravens for example, you won't sell your ship faster if you drop the price with several millions or just .1 isk. And as long there's a profit the other sellers will follow in the same pase. Trading is all about making isk, not giving it away for no good reason.
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.12.12 08:38:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jon Asus I see people under cutting me by 0.1 isk on a certain item in a certain region and all this does to me is annoy me so I drop my price by an even bigger margin [normally in the region of a couple of thousand on said item]. I simply do not see how it can be profitable for me to play what in my eyes is a petty and silly price war when I can force their hand.
Does anyone on this forum play the 0.1 isk game or does it annoy you equally as much as it does me?
lol, this always makes me laugh. I pretty much ALWAYS under/over cut by an insignificant amount of isk. Be it 0.01, 0.1, 1, 10, whatever.
If someone then goes over/under my order by 25,000 then, as long as it's still profitable, I'll simply match them and go another insignificant amount further.
Why would I want to pay more than I had to for an item? Why would I want to sell somthing for less than I could sell it for?
If I undercut you by 0.02 isk would you still get annoyed and drop the price much further? What about 10 isk? Where is the cutoff point? It's totaly ********!
I've learnt not to get annoyed by these things. I trade like a robot, no anger or grudges, just maximising profit. When someone undercuts me by a large amount I just smile because in the time the thier order has been above mine, they have needlessly been paying more for the item than they could have and now I've undercut them again anyway.
So to answer your question, yes, I play the 0.01 isk game because the only realistic, long-term alternative, is to take prices so close to the break-even point that I wouldn't even bother any more.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.12.12 09:37:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Dark Shikari No, a real hardcore trader understands the value of his time.
Anyone who thinks it is worth wasting hours to make an extra few million on top of a few hundred million profit is a fool.
qft
When I sell things (not often, I'm not much of a trader, and have a limited capital to speculate with), I'm not going to keep staring at the market panel more than twice an hour, at most. If someone undercut me by 0.01, I'll lower my price by 1 to 3%. If I still get undercut, then 5-10%. I don't care all that much about maximising profits, so long as I get a reasonnable price for whatever I sell.
There's also the ethic side of selling, a bit like CCP's risk vs reward: when you compete with someone to sell something, if you want to sell first, you have to accept lower profits. That's the moral side of the thing. But with 0.01 undercuts, the lower profit part is only a technicality, and that's just wrong, imho. Quite often I ignore sell orders with a xxx.99 price to buy the goods of someone who sell with a round number. It cost me a few more isks, at most, and my money goes to someone with more understanding of what his time is worth.. ------------------------------------------
What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs. |
Confuzer
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2007.12.12 09:41:00 -
[37]
I can do it, but I won't. I have like 500 orders out and updating them every time is SO boring.
They sell, they always do ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
Svanna Gulmi
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Posted - 2007.12.12 09:54:00 -
[38]
I do this game, although it's 1 isk not .01 isk Tbh it annoys the same people who like to do missions afk, if you want to go afk trading, expect to loose! I do trading a few weeks at a time but when i'm doing it, i spend the time needed. If someone udercuts me by 10,000 i just think they spat there dummy out because they don't have what it takes to trade! I only do a few different areas but i know how the market flows with them, if you undercut me enough i'll buy your stock and resell, ok sure you got your sale but i make isk from you, which is what i do!
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.12.12 11:02:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Dark Shikari No, a real hardcore trader understands the value of his time.
Anyone who thinks it is worth wasting hours to make an extra few million on top of a few hundred million profit is a fool.
Quite often I ignore sell orders with a xxx.99 price to buy the goods of someone who sell with a round number. It cost me a few more isks, at most, and my money goes to someone with more understanding of what his time is worth..
This always gets a chuckle.
The system will always make you buy from the LOWEST PRICED sell order, no matter which one you clicked. This means your actually just giving slightly more money than you need to to the guy with the xxx.99 price.
Grats.
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Anna Sofia
Lagavullin
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Posted - 2007.12.12 13:19:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Anna Sofia on 12/12/2007 13:19:29 edit: nothing of value whatsoever
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Fitz VonHeise
The New Order. United Connection's
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Posted - 2007.12.12 13:30:00 -
[41]
I both do and don't do the 0.1.
I do sell a lot of stuff in Jita. But since my selling alt is also off doing missions or traveling I will update orders as I am in Jita (once a day or every other day) to be either the lowest at the time if I want a quicker sell or if it is a product I think is going on a rising bubble I will estimate what I think the price will go to... or where I want to make my sale.
Usually what I put at the low price will sell eventually as the price goes up or down. And if it doesn't sell by the time I get there I reduce it again.
But there are many items I sell that are low volume but high margin sales. And I have spread them around all the larger markets. I have a lot of isk tied up in these products... but as I sell them I make a far higher profit. (Usually 50-70%) Sorta like a bank but with much better interest rates.
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Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.12.12 13:35:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jon Asus I see people under cutting me by 0.1 isk on a certain item in a certain region and all this does to me is annoy me so I drop my price by an even bigger margin [normally in the region of a couple of thousand on said item]. I simply do not see how it can be profitable for me to play what in my eyes is a petty and silly price war when I can force their hand.
Does anyone on this forum play the 0.1 isk game or does it annoy you equally as much as it does me?
I always play it, becouse in most cases higher undercut will be answered as fast as 0.01 one so I am only cutting my own profit by higher undercutting. There are different scenarios though:
a) The other person joins 0.01, so we basically entered into price-fixing pact, as long as update periods are not hilarious (minutes), we share the market and both enjoy good profits - ok for me and I will keep 0.01 game forever if needed.
b) The other person joins 0.01, but updates withing minutes - market camper. I usually try one big undercut, if he follows I leave the market and wait till he sells out (or I move stuff to another market if his stock is high). Destroying price by multiple large undercuts doesn't help me, it justs costs me time and ISK (assuming items can be sold later (or on different market) for better price).
c) The other person refuse to join 0.01 and does big undercut. Usually these ppl don't have time to update too often, so it is quite funny to undercut them back by 0.01. I do that until price reaches my minimum, then I keep my order there, so undercutter is forced to sell his stuff for price under my minimum profit or buyout my order. They usually choose to sell at low price (as my price is not low enough), so I just keep my order there until they sell out and when they are gone I raise price back.
Sometimes I buy out their stuff if they reach price close to build price, but usually they are not that dumb, so they just lock themselves in low profit selling by those big undercuts.
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Krugerrand
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.12.12 13:40:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Krugerrand on 12/12/2007 13:42:26 0.1...I do 0.01
If people undercut for more to a point where theres no point in doing above undercut, I stop and wait for it to be bought out.
All about profit :D
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Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.12.12 14:43:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Shadowsword Quite often I ignore sell orders with a xxx.99 price to buy the goods of someone who sell with a round number. It cost me a few more isks, at most, and my money goes to someone with more understanding of what his time is worth..
I, the xxx.99 seller, thank you for your donation.
MP --
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression! |
Daerkannon Shimmerscale
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2007.12.12 15:43:00 -
[45]
I think the answer here is "it depends". It depends on where you're trading and what.
Most of the markets I trade in are higher volume, very low isk/unit items. Your product will sell regardless of your sales price so to my mind the large undercut is just forcing the average selling price down. Not only that, but even a 1 isk/unit price drop can be more than a 1% price change, so it only makes sense to play the 0.01 game.
Most of the time I'm playing in a band of about 7% profit per trade, so if you force the price down 5% it is no longer worth it for me to trade that item and I'll wait for margins to recover before resuming. I guess in that sense you win, but if you're doing that you may as well sell to the buy orders.
Some people might scoff at such a small profit, but it's all about how fast you turn your money over. If I can churn my ISK so that I'm making those 7% trades twice per week, that's a 71% monthly return. Not bad in my books. --- Honest officer, the dwarf was on fire when I got here! Can't find a mechanical engineering agent? Need a non-Caldari Navy agent? http://www.eve-agents.com/ for all your agent needs! |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.12 17:49:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Umami Take Ravens for example, you won't sell your ship faster if you drop the price with several millions or just .1 isk.
This is 100% absolutely not true.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.12.12 18:39:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Umami Take Ravens for example, you won't sell your ship faster if you drop the price with several millions or just .1 isk.
This is 100% absolutely not true.
Definitely.
I would rather sell 100 ships at 5% profit than 20 ships at 7% profit.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated) |
Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.12.12 18:53:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Umami Take Ravens for example, you won't sell your ship faster if you drop the price with several millions or just .1 isk.
This is 100% absolutely not true.
Definitely.
I would rather sell 100 ships at 5% profit than 20 ships at 7% profit.
Yeah, but that's not what happens.
If you drop the price by 1 mil isk, others will just undercut you the same as they would have done if you dropped by 0.01 isk. Ok, not ALWAYS, I'll grant you, but the vast majority of the time this will be true in my experience.
Obviously, you'd rather sell 100 ships with 5% profit than 20 with 7% profit. Me, I'd rather sell those 100 ships for 7% profit... Making that statement does not prove anything or even argue for anything, it's just irrelevent.
I've tried both methods, large under/over cuts and the 0.01 game. Both have thier place and somtimes I'll still over or undercut by a large amount but averaged out over a month, playing the 0.01 game has ALWAYS given me better profits.
Also, I only check my orders 1-3 times a day, somtimes never in a day, so the whole '0.01 isk game is only good for people who play 23/7 is simply wrong'
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Iria Ahrens
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.12.12 19:16:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 12/12/2007 19:23:58 Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 12/12/2007 19:22:44 Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 12/12/2007 19:21:49 Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 12/12/2007 19:17:09 If game means keep updating my price so it's always the lowest then no.
I look at volume. If I'm not filling buy orders then I'm pricing slightly below if it looks like the market is correct. If, however, I, as an example see that the average daily volume is at 100,000 units and there are 20 people price-waring with a combined total of 50,000 units. Then I price at the highest I think someone will pay,which may be several times higher than the existing prices. I did this with Sulfuric Acid a couple of weeks ago. People were pricing at the 1300 and I put in a sell order for about 3000. Because the people below me were not enough to fill the market demand. I woke up 98m isk richer.
I check my prices every couple of days to see how they are doing, and figure out if there is a demand slump or a surplus in supply that is keeping my goods on the market. If it's a supply surplus, then I undercut slightly a few times over another week. and, then my sell order expires. I can't afford a 90 day order like many do, my capital isn't that strong. A 2 week order is the most I'm willing to tolerate. So If it hasn't sold over 2 weeks, then I consider moving my product to a different system, or just liquidate it and use the capital elsewhere.
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Tuborg
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.12 20:13:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Shadarle This is a simple situation. If someone updates 23/7 they should do .01 updates. I do not update often, usually twice a day maybe three times. If I try to compete on the same terms with .01 undercutters I will lose out to them. So I change the game. I drive the margins down to the point they don't want to stay in any more.
I'd rather have 100% of 5% than 0% of 20% margins. And if they stay in it then I have the satisfaction of knowing they are making 5% instead of 20%. It's a zero-sum game. Either I get money or my competitors do. If I don't get money I want my competitor to get a the least amount of money as possible.
QFT - For the first time ever, I find myself completely agreeing with the otherwise so annoying Shadarle
I will play the 0.01 game for as long as I get something out of it, but if a competitor is consistently undercutting me within 30 minutes of my own price adjustments, then my order is not getting any market exposure forcing me to go into the heavy undercutting mode.
Once in that mode I won't make much profit but neither will my competitor. If I think he goes too low, I buy him out, and vice versa. Then the order gets re-listed at a higher profit and the game starts again... Repeat until the competitor gets bored or realizes he can make more profit trading something else. And believe me... I can be very patient.
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Havok Pierce
Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.12 20:32:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Dark Shikari If someone undercuts me by 0.1, I undercut them by 10,000.
Teach them not to bring a knife to a gunfight.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.12 22:47:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ambo
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Umami Take Ravens for example, you won't sell your ship faster if you drop the price with several millions or just .1 isk.
This is 100% absolutely not true.
Definitely.
I would rather sell 100 ships at 5% profit than 20 ships at 7% profit.
Yeah, but that's not what happens.
If you drop the price by 1 mil isk, others will just undercut you the same as they would have done if you dropped by 0.01 isk. Ok, not ALWAYS, I'll grant you, but the vast majority of the time this will be true in my experience.
You say in your experience, but DS and I have quite a bit more experience. I've tried all sorts of different strategies and I've done them for months at a time. I question if the people on the other side of this have done the same. I played the .01 game for a long time. I speak from experience saying it is not even remotely as efficient. If you have 23 hours a day to update orders all the time then you will make more with .01 undercuts. If you do not have that time and instead update your orders 2-4 times a day or some such then .01 will not yield the best profits over time, only the best profits per unit.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Wieting Foyu
Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.12.12 23:08:00 -
[53]
Hell no I don't play this game... It all comes down to how much time you have to watch your orders. I work in 17 different regions with 300 different items. There is no way I can keep track of the .01 iskers out there. So if I get under bid by .01 isk, I first see how many items that person is selling. IF it is only 1-9 items then I just shrug it off because I have 100 on the market so I lose 10 sales big deal I get my price. If that person has the same amount as me then I lower it a little first to see how long they attack. I ALWAYS know what my prices are and what I can sell for. I will never go below a 10% profit,, so if you buy me out boom I made money. If you undercut me more than I can afford, I have 16 other regions I know where I can still make that 10% or more.
Basically if you have the time to watch all your orders, by all means play the .01 isk game. If you can't watch em, at least know your limits so you are still making a profit.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.12.12 23:33:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 12/12/2007 23:33:19
Originally by: Havok Pierce
Originally by: Dark Shikari If someone undercuts me by 0.1, I undercut them by 10,000.
Teach them not to bring a knife to a gunfight.
Its more like bringing a pushpin to a nuclear war.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated) |
Taince Milano
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Posted - 2007.12.13 02:56:00 -
[55]
Whether a person likes to 0.01ISK, or slash margins as their preferred strategy is *ENTIRELY UNRELATED* to how far they are able to go in the price war. Because of this, the only way slashing your margins is going to win you the battle is if you can *afford* to still make a profit where your competitors cannot.
If me and some other tard are both 'resellers' buying at the same price, and have similar skills, we will have the same cost. If he decides to slash it to a thin margin, the *only* gain he has is that during the period where my order is top, I wont be making much money. But then neither is he.
The only time I can see slashing margins as a viable strategy is when you *know* you can afford margins where all the other guys arent making a profit.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.13 03:37:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Shadarle on 13/12/2007 03:37:24 It seems everyone is assuming unlimited supply here which is a false assumption.
The faster I sell item A the faster I can move on to buying and selling item B.
EDIT> This is a gross simplification of course but the concept holds.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Zernin
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2007.12.13 04:30:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Motivated Prophet
Originally by: Shadowsword Quite often I ignore sell orders with a xxx.99 price to buy the goods of someone who sell with a round number. It cost me a few more isks, at most, and my money goes to someone with more understanding of what his time is worth..
I, the xxx.99 seller, thank you for your donation.
MP
I am always amazed by how few sellers have taken note of this mechanic yet. Non-sellers I can understand, but sellers make me cry...
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Sheial Tarlien
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.12.13 05:19:00 -
[58]
where do you the phrase "put in your 2cents" came from? orders work similarly in real commodity markets, people who get frustrated and amp up the sell/buy order prices they set in order to sell/buy goods faster tend to jump into the bankruptcy lines just as fast. Eve wise will that 10,000isk per unit hike u tossed in out of frustration probably wont bankrupt you but its still silly to believe that your competitors are out to annoy you. They just want to make isk and they're careful with their cash, so should u. There is no conspiracy hereึ
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.12.13 08:39:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Ambo
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I would rather sell 100 ships at 5% profit than 20 ships at 7% profit.
Yeah, but that's not what happens.
If you drop the price by 1 mil isk, others will just undercut you the same as they would have done if you dropped by 0.01 isk. Ok, not ALWAYS, I'll grant you, but the vast majority of the time this will be true in my experience.
You say in your experience, but DS and I have quite a bit more experience. I've tried all sorts of different strategies and I've done them for months at a time. I question if the people on the other side of this have done the same. I played the .01 game for a long time. I speak from experience saying it is not even remotely as efficient. If you have 23 hours a day to update orders all the time then you will make more with .01 undercuts. If you do not have that time and instead update your orders 2-4 times a day or some such then .01 will not yield the best profits over time, only the best profits per unit.
Well, yes, you do have more experience but I've spent around 2 months doing big over/undercuts and around 3 months doing the small over/undercuts. I'd say that's enough to get a good feel for which is best.
Because I've used my program to track profits, I can say with certainty that EVERY item I traded in for both periods gave me better isk/hour when I did small undercuts than when I did large ones. As I said before, I only check orders 1-3 times per day so that argument does not stand up.
I've got no doubt that there is money to be made either way but I have hard numbers collected over months of trading that say playing the 0.01 isk game will give you better profit over time for the items and regions that I deal with.
Maybe our businesses are too different or maybe you're just saying large over/undercutting is good so that you can take advantage of the suckers who do it!
On second thought... yes, I can categorically say that large over/undercuts work best.
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Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.12.13 10:19:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Ambo On second thought... yes, I can categorically say that large over/undercuts work best.
I agree with Ambo.
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