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Dragon Outlaw
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
43
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 16:23:00 -
[151] - Quote
When my daughter put her gold fish in a bigger fish tank... it got bigger. |

Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1276
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 16:41:00 -
[152] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:No theories, just facts. Knowledge about this is laid out on this and the old forums.
In short:
CCP ****** up bigtime, people rioted (Google: Jita riots) and unsubbed, CCP got their ass kicked, Crucible came to make it better.
The End.
And yet were still at 50k players despite this crappy CSM endorsed circle jerking expansion.
Its just 2 or 3 alliances spamming alt accounts and trying to put public pressure on CCP to turn Eve online into "rifters online"
Give us WiS without touching/changing FiS and see the player base grow.
|

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5435
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Posted - 2012.03.12 16:57:00 -
[153] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:And yet were still at 50k players despite this crappy CSM endorsed circle jerking expansion. No. Not GG#stillGG%. We're back up to 50k, from the just-over-40k that Incarna caused, and it's because of (not despite) the excellent issue-focused expansion that came out.
Quote:Give us WiS without touching/changing FiS and see the player base grow. No, that's what caused the crash down to 40k. What needs to happen is to give us WiS while simultaneously giving us constant touches and changes to FiSGG* and they're apparently not able to do that. GG#If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GkmvGkm you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GG%
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |

Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
67
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 17:05:00 -
[154] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:Most new players get suckered into joining small corps that dont really do anything. They have a bad/boring experience there and eventually quit.
A lot of players want to "get in on the ground floor" which is admirable but it leads to lots and lots of boredom usually.
I've run a highsec corp and i know my corp's lack of activity was the direct reason for at least 2 people quitting. Since then, i've closed my corp and recommend to newbies to join only large alliances.
I recommend increasing Corp/Alliance creation fees to discourage small corps that almost never survive. Or place a limit on how often a player can create a corporation AND require standings to create a corp.
That is a problem with a lot of small corps, even corps that have a 100+ players registered yet only a handful actually playing.
Problem is made worse due to the fact that if you leave the starter corps to try out one of these corps you can't get back to the starter corp you end up in another NPC corp where players have left player corps. In general the starter corps are better that the other NPC corps especially for newer players. |

Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
46
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Posted - 2012.03.12 17:47:00 -
[155] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:Word of mouth about EVE has been bad for the last few years.
I am on some forums that are not primarily gaming forums and the consensus opinion on these is that EVE is a game that is going downhill. No one is enthusiastic about EVE and no one says you must try it or it is a great game and at best you say EVE is ok. I have been gaming since 1978. I started with Adventure games (Space Quest), went to Flight Sims (F117 Stealth Fighter, Falcon, etc) and played heavily for years in FPS games. Me and my wife played 8 or so years in versions of Unreal Tournament. I was never really interested in MMO's and I wonder if that put on blinders in some way. It wasn't until 2008 that I even heard of EVE and when my work buddy explained it to me, how it worked I thought "Hmm sounds like a blast." I wanted to do ECM and fly a Scorpion. I started 2 accounts the first week and never looked back, It's all I play now and while I reached my early goal of ECM, I am doing that and much more.
But my point here is that it seemed to take so long in my gaming career before I even heard of Eve Online. I don't live in a cave... Sometimes I wonder if I had heard of it and it didn't click.
So what I am saying, I think the word needs to be spread more. But then again I could just be stupid and not paying attention... |

Ai Shun
351
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 17:57:00 -
[156] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Until we grow bored and leave the game as there is no endgame for hisec, no endgame for soloers, and no endgame for people with a life
It does. You have to decide what your endgame is. That is the nature of the game.
|

Jame Jarl Retief
State War Academy Caldari State
2
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 18:00:00 -
[157] - Quote
Hans Hoff wrote: Theories?
Speaking for myself, EVE is much slower-paced than other MMOs. Some other MMOs are more grindy, but their pace is typically faster. That is, the more you grind, the faster you progress. EVE's real-time training is a major stumbling block for most people.
For example, when I first looked at Ishtar, and saw it would take me 57 days JUST to be able to fly it, without any supporting or weapons still training at all? That's crazy. Show me an MMO where you have to wait 57 days real time for anything. Most other MMOs you hit "endgame" with 6-10 days played - that is have access, at least theoretically, to the best gear in the game.
My first few days in EVE were actually fun. Skill training took from 10 mins to a few hours at most. But then you start hitting skills that take 21+ days, which feels like a plateau, and pushing through it while being acutely aware that nothing you do can speed it up is a bummer.
Yes, I know, there's a general view that everyone these days is looking for instant gratification, and that's what killed WoW (no it wasn't, it was killed by Activision just like Bioware was killed by EA) and blah blah blah. But you have to remember that it was supposed to be a GAME, and people play games for FUN. And honestly, for whom is it fun to wait 30+ days real time to get access to new stuff? I get the whole "EVE is a hobby" thing though, but that's also partially what keeps this game's population from taking off.
I mean, graphically, EVE is probably the best MMO out there today. The amount of detail and quality of it is pretty astounding. Character creator? One of the best, if not THE best, available in an MMO today. If the game itself wasn't so horribly tedious and boring at times, I feel population could have skyrocketed ages ago.
I also don't feel that the whole "risk vs reward" is what's keeping people away. it's part of it, yes, but seeing as 60% of players are in high-sec anyhow and never leave it, what risk is there for them outside of suicide ganks? None. |

Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
165
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:49:00 -
[158] - Quote
EvE is a niche game that doesn't hold your hand in any way which is both a blessing and a failure. Players come to EvE full of hope, and then they get crushed by veteran players, who will bald faced tell you that they really don't have an advantage over new players, and walk away laughing at you.
You can either:
1. Realize that you fit right in here, and go on to become a veteran player yourself, by joining a corp, moving to nullsec and waiting for fleets to form 2. Find a way around the problem by doing things that won't put you in combat with veteran players (industry and a host of other solo endeavours) 3. Quit in horror (or shame)...and go on to badmouth the game everywhere you can.
Option 1 seems to appeal to some people. Option 2 seems to appeal to more people than option 1. Option 3 keeps the population static along with normal attrition.
You can't solve this problem without breaking EvE as we know it. |

JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
42
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:55:00 -
[159] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:(...
Then there are the players of high-sec, who play eve because they get enjoyment out of the game by doing all the boring stuff. (...) Until we grow bored and leave the game as there is no endgame for hisec, no endgame for soloers, and no endgame for people with a life Then of course, if a player got a life, or don't feel like making new friends who can stab his back for free, or think that losing his means to have fun is not fun at all, then such player should not be playing EVE... and they aren't, actually. They are leaving the game almost as fast as new players subscribe, thus EVE doesn't grows.
You dont understand.
It is not loosing that is fun. * It is accumulating riches and avoiding loss when there is a threat to your doing or someone wants to kill you, it gives a sense of accomplishemts that you did something despite of circumstances.
- Hi sec is totally stripped of that thus its boring and people quit fast.
|

Karl Hobb
3
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:16:00 -
[160] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Until we grow bored and leave the game as there is no endgame for hisec, no endgame for soloers, and no endgame for people with a life Christ, you're a ******* whiner...
I've got a pregnant wife plus a full-time job and I've got so much solo content in this game I don't know where to start. Maybe the difference is that I don't limit myself to high-sec and I don't create endless whine threads when I lose my 'Cane to a gate camp. I don't PvP much either (playing the prey is as much a thrill for me as blowing other people up), but I don't shy away from it; it's the bread and butter of this game. I'm ******* terrible at EVE.
"Fun fact: carebears are not necessary for the game to function." --aTippia |
|

Ai Shun
352
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:42:00 -
[161] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:For example, when I first looked at Ishtar, and saw it would take me 57 days JUST to be able to fly it, without any supporting or weapons still training at all? That's crazy. Show me an MMO where you have to wait 57 days real time for anything. Most other MMOs you hit "endgame" with 6-10 days played - that is have access, at least theoretically, to the best gear in the game.
Now I don't entirely agree with that. Can you really go, in World of Warcraft as an example, from 1 to 85 in less than 57 days as a new player and be raiding the top-end content?
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Yes, I know, there's a general view that everyone these days is looking for instant gratification, and that's what killed WoW (no it wasn't, it was killed by Activision just like Bioware was killed by EA) and blah blah blah. But you have to remember that it was supposed to be a GAME, and people play games for FUN. And honestly, for whom is it fun to wait 30+ days real time to get access to new stuff? I get the whole "EVE is a hobby" thing though, but that's also partially what keeps this game's population from taking off.
It is a slower paced game; that is just the way it is. The key is to set yourself intermediary goals and to not only focus on "ZOMG I iz getting more powerful !11!!". You can do a lot with other ships that you are trained to fly and you can accomplish a lot in-game.
But that is the design difference - EVE is aimed at people who can set goals for themselves in-game. It is not intended for people who need to see skill / power / gear levels increase. |

Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
165
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:49:00 -
[162] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote: Now I don't entirely agree with that. Can you really go, in World of Warcraft as an example, from 1 to 85 in less than 57 days as a new player and be raiding the top-end content?
Yes. Easily. The barriers for getting into endgame content have drastically dropped over the years in WoW. You can level to 85 in a couple weeks, run some five mans, run the "Looking for Raid" tier, and bam you are geared for top end content.
In ToR you can hit the endgame even faster than that, granted its a new game without a lot of endgame content yet. |

Ai Shun
352
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:53:00 -
[163] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:Yes. Easily. The barriers for getting into endgame content have drastically dropped over the years in WoW. You can level to 85 in a couple weeks, run some five mans, run the "Looking for Raid" tier, and bam you are geared for top end content.
Wow. I last played actively with Burning Crusade, dabbled a bit with Lich King but had no idea that it was so easy now to get to the top tier hardmodes! So what do people do when they are fully geared out and max level within a couple of weeks? They're basically out of content. Or do they just sit there in their pretty gear doing the same things over and over and over?
|

Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
165
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:57:00 -
[164] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:Yes. Easily. The barriers for getting into endgame content have drastically dropped over the years in WoW. You can level to 85 in a couple weeks, run some five mans, run the "Looking for Raid" tier, and bam you are geared for top end content. Wow. I last played actively with Burning Crusade, dabbled a bit with Lich King but had no idea that it was so easy now to get to the top tier hardmodes! So what do people do when they are fully geared out and max level within a couple of weeks? They're basically out of content. Or do they just sit there in their pretty gear doing the same things over and over and over?
Yeah, BC had raid attunements which drew out that process quite a bit.
These days, the hardcores sit around and dream of Kung-fu pandas and Pokemon pet fighting that's coming in the next expansion. Subs are dropping continually.
The EvE model with no defined endgame has a lot going for it...but the ruthless PvP style will make it so that we never see the big numbers here. That's fine with me, personally. |

Ai Shun
352
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:26:00 -
[165] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:The EvE model with no defined endgame has a lot going for it...but the ruthless PvP style will make it so that we never see the big numbers here. That's fine with me, personally.
Same. |

Avid Bumhumper
Furian Necromongers
32
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:50:00 -
[166] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. Then over that time you should have noticed the average player count has steadily increased. Details available at eve-offline. I logged on on Wednesday to a server with 10k on (it was shortly after patch after all), which used to be the actual daily average back in 05-ish. The only hiccup recently was Incarna, where no growth happened and some people left, Crucible has seen people return and slow growth.
You do realize that Eve-offlines graphs go right to left?
Eve still has not recovered from the stupidity of last year....and personally, spiffing up noob ships really shouldn't even be on the radar....
|

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1228
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 21:58:00 -
[167] - Quote
Avid Bumhumper wrote:Buzzmong wrote:Hans Hoff wrote:I started playing EvE just over 3 years ago. Then over that time you should have noticed the average player count has steadily increased. Details available at eve-offline. I logged on on Wednesday to a server with 10k on (it was shortly after patch after all), which used to be the actual daily average back in 05-ish. The only hiccup recently was Incarna, where no growth happened and some people left, Crucible has seen people return and slow growth. You do realize that Eve-offlines graphs go right to left? Eve still has not recovered from the stupidity of last year....and personally, spiffing up noob ships really shouldn't even be on the radar.... 
And yet subscription numbers continue to rise... When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |

Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
321
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:15:00 -
[168] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Until we grow bored and leave the game as there is no endgame for hisec, no endgame for soloers, and no endgame for people with a life It does. You have to decide what your endgame is. That is the nature of the game.
I dissent. I figured my first goal in the first months here, and then I learned that such goal was unachievable by the rules.
I don't want a new ride. I want to be able to set long term goals that can be achieved on my own (solo endgame), one hour at a time (casual endgame), without it all being fukked by the first ******** blob passing by (hisec endgame), or being stolen by the first moderfuker I entrust (solo endgame again).
Or, if none of the above, i want to be able to realize my first goal and be able to hit back griefers as hard and as impunely as they do to innocent players, so they shed a lot of tears and leave the game with a lesson that actions have got consequences. EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% non-Highsec residents.
EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...-a |

Ai Shun
352
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:18:00 -
[169] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:I don't want a new ride. I want to be able to set long term goals that can be achieved on my own (solo endgame), one hour at a time (casual endgame), without it all being fukked by the first ******** blob passing by (hisec endgame), or being stolen by the first moderfuker I entrust (solo endgame again).
You want to play a single-player game.
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Or, if none of the above, i want to be able to realize my first goal and be able to hit back griefers as hard and as impunely as they do to innocent players, so they shed a lot of tears and leave the game with a lesson that actions have got consequences.
Nobody is stopping you except yourself. Go for it!
(We were ganked, so this may be a double post) |

Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
70
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:25:00 -
[170] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:(We were ganked, so this may be a double post)
I've been getting that a lot today, 1st time I've been getting that over the last two months. |
|

Ai Shun
352
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:34:00 -
[171] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:I've been getting that a lot today, 1st time I've been getting that over the last two months.
Yes, it started happening very regularly for me since Sunday. Ah well, CCP. Got to love them.
|

Schmacos tryne
Norsk Testosteron
31
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:43:00 -
[172] - Quote
I don't get it... Thousands of players knew thousands of potential players whom would join just if they got rid of learning skills...
They did get rid of learning skills so where are thos thousands of newsubs?
Oh wait... there was another motive.................. |

Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
413
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:51:00 -
[173] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:The EvE model with no defined endgame has a lot going for it...but the ruthless PvP style will make it so that we never see the big numbers here. That's fine with me, personally. Same. Meh... you never know. It's about incentive. If EvE gameplay provides a significant challenge and is a well balanced, well-oiled machine, word might get out that EvE is in and of itself the definitive video game "end game". While I agree that may not bring in WoW numbers, it might just bring in a mil or two to the player base, and those players will represent the upper cusp of competitive players around the world. We could have a very long way to go until we see what EvE could be.
I don't think it's the ruthless PvP style that's holding EvE back atm though. I think the ruthless PvP style is a draw. 
|

Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
413
 |
Posted - 2012.03.12 22:53:00 -
[174] - Quote
Schmacos tryne wrote:I don't get it... Thousands of players knew thousands of potential players whom would join just if they got rid of learning skills...
They did get rid of learning skills so where are thos thousands of newsubs?
Oh wait... there was another motive.................. /signed. I'm on-board with dropping SP altogether. (97mil SP here...)
|

Jame Jarl Retief
State War Academy Caldari State
2
 |
Posted - 2012.03.13 02:07:00 -
[175] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Now I don't entirely agree with that. Can you really go, in World of Warcraft as an example, from 1 to 85 in less than 57 days as a new player and be raiding the top-end content?
Yep, you totally can. At least when I was playing the game (vanilla and for a while following TBC, until Activision took over). I don't know more recently, but I'm guessing it's only gotten easier since then. Yeah, Molten Core with a bunch of new level 60s wasn't a walk in the park, but with proper crafted gear it was doable.
And it's also 57 days JUST to get to fly the ship. Doesn't include weapons, support skills, done skills. What is Ishtar without T2 sentries or heavies? Add a month for each. Drone Interfacing V? Another month! T2 medium hybrids? Another month, month and a half. Fitting skills? Another month. Etc.,etc. See the problem? In EVE, it takes months JUST to get to the hull.
For giggles, I just went to EVEMon and took Ishtar and the skills recommended for it with certificates. Result? 89 days! And this is on a character that easily runs L4s. Imagine what it would be for a brand new character. And this isn't "endgame", which is just a HAC.
Quote:It is a slower paced game; that is just the way it is. The key is to set yourself intermediary goals and to not only focus on "ZOMG I iz getting more powerful !11!!". You can do a lot with other ships that you are trained to fly and you can accomplish a lot in-game.
But that is the design difference - EVE is aimed at people who can set goals for themselves in-game. It is not intended for people who need to see skill / power / gear levels increase.
There are limits to what is acceptable and what is not. As a new player, just trying the game out of curiosity, a 100+ days commitment is a little more than can be reasonably expected. Heck, I know people whose longest lasting serious RELATIONSHIP was shorter than 100 days for crying out loud. And this is a GAME, or supposed to be.
First, remember the learning skills? Yeah, they're gone now. But until about a year ago, they were a reality every new player had to face. You were basically told "Welcome to EVE. Unless you want to gimp your training horribly, start training learning skills." So you asked "OK, what can I do in the meantime?" And the answer? "Uhh, why around in your newbie ship? That's about it." That, by itself, must have cost the game tens of thousands of subs. Seriously, picture WoW, where before you could actually play the game you had to wait for a month for your character to learn how to learn, and meanwhile you are stuck at level 1 killing level 1 pigs. Can you see the game succeeding?
Now it's slightly better. But still far, far too slow. For example, a player decides he wants "endgame", to fly a carrier for example. Lofty goal. But realistically, how long before he can do it even remotely effectively? As a new player? 200 days, minimum? And that's without skilling up to V on everything. If you want to level V everything, it'll take you a little over THREE YEARS. I'm sorry, but some of us had pets that didn't live that long (it was a hamster! I'm not a horrible person).
That's the issue with EVE. Most people expect progress, and they want to have fun while progressing, without getting bored. EVE doesn't deliver on this front, not at all. Within a month of starting to play the game, you'll start hitting plateaus with seemingly meaningless skills taking up to a week to advance just one level. Good example is Mechanic V, which is required for a LARII. Takes a week to train it. And by itself, all it does it increase HULL hitpoints 5%. How useful is that, honestly? It's just a means to an end. But still far too slow.
I know old hands are really attached to their ginormous SP buffer and all the advantages it offers, but for a new player this is fairly crippling. Even if it can be argued that perhaps it's not so bad if you only come up against people who stick to frigates, just MENTALLY it's really depressing to be looking at a 3 months' wait before you can even get inside a ship you want to try. Now imagine if the ship doesn't handle the way you hoped it would, or the weapons system you liked doesn't quite work the way you expected it to. Time to retrain, starting with level 1?
Sorry about the gloomy post, but that's the main reason EVE was so hard to get into. For me, anyway. Very few MMOs do such a fantastic job of totally depressing a player as EVE. Especially now that time to train shows up in the info window. Nothing beats looking at a module and seeing 42 days, 68 days, etc. Yeah, not depressing at all... 
I'm not asking for instant gratification, mind you, but EVE sometimes goes past ridiculous and goes right to...LUDICROUS SPEED! GO! |

Ai Shun
353
 |
Posted - 2012.03.13 02:21:00 -
[176] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Sorry about the gloomy post, but that's the main reason EVE was so hard to get into. For me, anyway. Very few MMOs do such a fantastic job of totally depressing a player as EVE. Especially now that time to train shows up in the info window. Nothing beats looking at a module and seeing 42 days, 68 days, etc. Yeah, not depressing at all... 
Ok, my experience is vastly different and I'm a year and a bit old as a character. I set myself goals; e.g. I want to train for F. But while I'm training for X, I can already do A - E and will continue doing those until F is ready. Then it is on to the next goal. It seems reasonable to me, not depressing at all. Even though this is a game, it is a different game from others that requires a bit more planning, intelligence and commitment.
(P.S. Enigeiets te doen met Piet Retief?)
|

Tarsus Zateki
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
 |
Posted - 2012.03.13 02:43:00 -
[177] - Quote
Given that the number of active accounts continues to grow at a steady rate and has since the day Eve went online, even through the utter filth that was Incara, why does this thread even exist?
I'll see if I can dig up a lovely graph made by a corp mate showing a nice gentle population curve with little dips and humps where the awful content and awesome content was introduced, respectively. |
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