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C Black
Gallente
BLACK CARTEL
    |
Posted - 2007.12.14 13:13:00 -
[151]
 Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram
C Black, you're a tool. (Albeit a brave one)
You want the means to wardec farmers? If you get them it will mean others will get the means to grief regular players. Thats's bad for business.
Besides, farmers doing their 23/7 stuff isn't CCP's gripe. But when CCP find out they are selling ISK for RL cash. (Then again these farmers are playing cat/mouse game with CCP)
And still its always possible for people to evade wardecs. If you set a lvl 5 skill and don't log in for a week/month and use an alt you're hardly stopping farmers.
Cycle corp, cycle char. We all want them to cycle MMO that's for darn sure.
I will take the "tool" name. I am not asking for much. Just to limit the amount of Corp jumping. I am not asking for the permant hold on the corp members so that i can just keep the dec going to lock them into the corp. i am ask to put a limit on the time it takes to change corps. 48 hours to dec a corp and shot and 1 second to leave it as long as you dont have roles. IF you give up the roles when you get dec email from concord then you will be able to get out with out being in danger at all. And making them change names is not a Win.
Tool it will be.
C Black
Making new sign curently....Look back later...i am working on something cool...
Looking for all old friend of Wishsong Corp. eVe Mail me. C Black |
Illyrinia
Caldari
Epiphyte Mining and Exploration
Combined Planetary Union
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 13:18:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Ace Garpy
Edited by: Ace Garpy on 14/12/2007 11:43:45
Originally by: C Black
Originally by: Illyrinia
Originally by: Vadimik
Edited by: Vadimik on 14/12/2007 00:00:33
Want to make wardec meaningful ?
Force attackers to expose some valuable assets to counter-attack and make them pay contibution if they fail to protect the said assests, on top of premature wardec termination.
Only then implement any resrictions on avoiding the said wardec.
If you go as far as declare a war, there must be a way to beat you it. And since at the moment "attackers" can bail at any time without any penatly (just to resume pew-pew an hour later), it's pretty balanced that "victims" aren't compelled to anything just as well.
if you would stop being a noob and look at the options via war, deced corps can always make it mutual in which the attackers CANT withdraw, thank you very much. i used to be 2ic (2nd in command, on a former pilot) of a high sec pirate corp, many corps made a 30 minute stand, normally outnumbering us 2-1, but tactics and pvp experience made the difference. some corps even hired us AFTER they paid ransom to protect them in the advent that another corp like ours war decs them. but everything here is off from the OP, hes deccing KNOWN isk farmers, and they just corp hop... honestly now, look at those names 
thanks....they have jumped again. They leave the ceo alt in the corp and leave. And that crap about POS. Are you a DUMB. How many wars would be going on...only big corps could fight. I am trying my best to help clean up eve and all i end up doing is spending movey on war decs that cant be fought. i have ****ed off at least one GM already about this and showed him the corp history that proved that the character was war dodging. Leaveing the corp and then coming back in it. i was told that there was nothing wrong with that. One again i have to CALL BS on it. All of my character are in PC and can be targeted.
I have seen some good ideas and some really DUMB people. Once again i am wanting some way to lock the character into a corp long enough to make them fight. They can fight i have killed war ships but they use some wrong tactics and i keep getting them. Yes i have lost two ships to them.
I had a offer to join the corp to help out today. I had to tell him sorry. i am out of money to keep the war decs going for the time being. 30 mil to have 5 hours of shooting is really bad ratio.
thanks ILLYRINIA for the support. Good to see people helping to combat RMT/Isk farmers....cause CCP is supporting the hell out of them
C Black
I was in a corp a long time ago. We were constantly war decce'd over the 8 months we were active and it got tiresome at the end. We all jumped corp to get away from it. Some of us went NPC corp others started there own up.
Why should you ruin someone else's game if they don't want to play by your rules? There are some players who simply don't want to PvP. We all pay our money to play the way we want to.
If CCP doesn't care about the ISK farmers then why should you? It's not your problem. It's a game get over it there is life away from your monitor.
if you dont want war decced go join a large 0.0 alliance and go deep inside thier space and have fun carebearing, nothing stops you from gaining members that can pvp, or hiring a corp to dec the ones who dec u. its not all run and hide, make a stand, fight, never know you might like it.
You are trying to post to a locked thread
CONCORD has been notified
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Conjure
Killson Corp
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 13:30:00 -
[153]
After reading this I want to go PVP!
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Cailais
Amarr
VITOC
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 13:33:00 -
[154]
War Dodging Solution ver 1.1
The current War Dec system for Eve is essentially flawed - I would like to propose a alternative system which I believe would be of benefit both to an agressor and a defender.
1. Once a War is declared it remains active for 7 days (i.e it cannot be withdrawn) unless one of the following conditions is met.
 Attacker surrenders.
Defender surrenders.
2. At the end of the 7 day period the attacker may choose one of two options:
Ceasefire - the War ceases unresolved.
Maintain - the attacker pays for a second 7 days of war.
3. If the attacker chooses a Ceasefire the defender may choose:
Ceasefire - the War ceases unresolved.
Maintain - The defender assumes the role of attacker (and assumes all costs as a result).
Surrendering.
A corp which surrenders admits defeat. The surrendering corp is now a 'Tributary' to the victorious corp.
Tributary Corps.
A corp which has surrenderd a War becomes a Tributary Corporation. All pilots in a Tributary Corp now pay a 5% tax (like a normal corp tax) to their Oppressors (i.e. the corp that defeated them).
A corp may only pay Tribute to one other corp.
If a Tributary Corp is War Decced its Oppressor Corp may do the following:
Abandon Tributary Corp. - All tributes cease and the war between the ex-Tribute corp and its attacker continues as normal.
Intervention. - To hold onto its Tributary Corp the Oppressor Corp now joins the War.
Note: If an Oppressor corp itself is war decced its Tributary Corps are not involved in the war (i.e they are not valid war targets).
Disbanding / Fleeing a War - Refugees.
If a player leaves a Corp that is at War he becomes a 'Refugee'.
Refugees are still valid War Targets, however if they are engaged the attacker suffers a Sec Status loss as a result and the Refugee gains Kill Rights if his ship destroyed. Refugee status lasts for 7 days.
Refugee vs Refugee. Its possible pilots from both sides of a conflict will leave their parent corps. In this case refugees have no aggression rights against each other.
Ronin.
A player that does not join a Player Corp is classed as a Ronin (or masterless). Ronin cannot gain kill rights, and any attacker losses no Sec Status for attacking a Ronin player. (nb concord will still respond to an attack on a Ronin player). New players in NPC Corps will become Ronin after a period of 6 weeks.
Removing Tributary status.
A corp may relieve itself of Tributary status by declaring War on its Oppressor. The first 7 days of this Rebellion are treated as a free
War dec to both parties. At the end of the Rebellion period the costs and option to maintain the War are passed to the Oppressor Corp. During the Rebellion period if the Oppressor Corp surrenders it merely looses its Tribute Corp (it does not become Oppressed itself).
A corp may change its Tributary status by surrending to another Corp which has War Decced it (in essence it changes 'alliegance'). If the origonal Oppressor Corp intervened it is now at War with both the attacking corp, and its lost Tributary Corp.
An Oppresor Corp may abandon a Tributary Corp at any time.
Any comments welcome.
C.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
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DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Phalanx Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 13:44:00 -
[155]
Simple solution:
IF player wants to leave corp AND corp = wardecced THEN leave timer = 7 days ELSE leave timer = 0
- - -
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
|
C Black
Gallente
BLACK CARTEL
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 13:48:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Cailais
War Dodging Solution ver 1.1
The current War Dec system for Eve is essentially flawed - I would like to propose a alternative system which I believe would be of benefit both to an agressor and a defender.
1. Once a War is declared it remains active for 7 days (i.e it cannot be withdrawn) unless one of the following conditions is met.
Attacker surrenders.
Defender surrenders.
2. At the end of the 7 day period the attacker may choose one of two options:
Ceasefire - the War ceases unresolved.
Maintain - the attacker pays for a second 7 days of war.
3. If the attacker chooses a Ceasefire the defender may choose:
Ceasefire - the War ceases unresolved.
Maintain - The defender assumes the role of attacker (and assumes all costs as a result).
Surrendering.
A corp which surrenders admits defeat. The surrendering corp is now a 'Tributary' to the victorious corp.
Tributary Corps.
A corp which has surrenderd a War becomes a Tributary Corporation. All pilots in a Tributary Corp now pay a 5% tax (like a normal corp tax) to their Oppressors (i.e. the corp that defeated them).
A corp may only pay Tribute to one other corp.
If a Tributary Corp is War Decced its Oppressor Corp may do the following:
Abandon Tributary Corp. - All tributes cease and the war between the ex-Tribute corp and its attacker continues as normal.
Intervention. - To hold onto its Tributary Corp the Oppressor Corp now joins the War.
Note: If an Oppressor corp itself is war decced its Tributary Corps are not involved in the war (i.e they are not valid war targets).
Disbanding / Fleeing a War - Refugees.
If a player leaves a Corp that is at War he becomes a 'Refugee'.
Refugees are still valid War Targets, however if they are engaged the attacker suffers a Sec Status loss as a result and the Refugee gains Kill Rights if his ship destroyed. Refugee status lasts for 7 days.
Refugee vs Refugee. Its possible pilots from both sides of a conflict will leave their parent corps. In this case refugees have no aggression rights against each other.
Ronin.
A player that does not join a Player Corp is classed as a Ronin (or masterless). Ronin cannot gain kill rights, and any attacker losses no Sec Status for attacking a Ronin player. (nb concord will still respond to an attack on a Ronin player). New players in NPC Corps will become Ronin after a period of 6 weeks.
Removing Tributary status.
A corp may relieve itself of Tributary status by declaring War on its Oppressor. The first 7 days of this Rebellion are treated as a free
War dec to both parties. At the end of the Rebellion period the costs and option to maintain the War are passed to the Oppressor Corp. During the Rebellion period if the Oppressor Corp surrenders it merely looses its Tribute Corp (it does not become Oppressed itself).
A corp may change its Tributary status by surrending to another Corp which has War Decced it (in essence it changes 'alliegance'). If the origonal Oppressor Corp intervened it is now at War with both the attacking corp, and its lost Tributary Corp.
An Oppresor Corp may abandon a Tributary Corp at any time.
Any comments welcome.
C.
C that would be grand and there would be so many wars it would be awesome. Heading to bed for a while. i will check back in after i get some sleep.
C Black
Making new sign curently....Look back later...i am working on something cool...
Looking for all old friend of Wishsong Corp. eVe Mail me. C Black |
MongWen
Farmer Killers
United Corporations Against Macros
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 13:49:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Cailais
Disbanding / Fleeing a War - Refugees.
If a player leaves a Corp that is at War he becomes a 'Refugee'.
Refugees are still valid War Targets, however if they are engaged the attacker suffers a Sec Status loss as a result and the Refugee gains Kill Rights if his ship destroyed. Refugee status lasts for 7 days.
The sec status loss is a bit over the top, since it will be pain for some, tho it depends on how large it is ofc...
but i have to say for my part the rest of it sounds good.
Opinions are my opinions. They do not reflect view of UCAM, if it is not stated |
Ace Garpy
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 13:53:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Ace Garpy on 14/12/2007 13:54:20
Originally by: MongWen
Originally by: Ace Garpy
I was in a corp a long time ago. We were constantly war decce'd over the 8 months we were active and it got tiresome at the end. We all jumped corp to get away from it. Some of us went NPC corp others started there own up.
Quote:
Have you even read the OP?
Read further down before writing.
Quote:
Ok, so you say that you had a 8 months with wars, ok, what was the reason for those wars ? and as the OP says it total bs that people can jump the corp faster than he can dec and make a dent, and doing it over and over with all of the memmbers joining the same corp, not going thir own way like you...
You don't need a reason to war dec so it's easy to spam war dec's about on anyone. So it matters not one iota as to why we had war dec's. We were just in an area in Empire where certain characters (corps) liked to spam others. So why is it BS? I don't understand your reasoning? If the corp doesn't want to fight in PvP then why should they? Why enforce a player base to fight a war they do not want? Get over it.
Quote:
now if they had joined back to the same corp to avoid the dec it is a exploit.
Why? Again you can spam anyone with a war dec. Why ruin someones own game and all they have worked for to appeal to possible open bullying. You could actually call it harrasment if you continually war dec the same corp again and again...but it's not now is it.
Quote:
if you had read somemore of the posts you whod have seen that it issent about leaving a corp with a dec, its about doing it over and over and over again and just making new corps with new names, with the same members in them.
If you had done the same and actually thought about what you are writing instead of jumping on the tin foil hat brigade perhaps you would realise that actually these people don't want to fight. So move on with your life and stop harrasing other players (or whatever).
Quote:
Yes, but why shod other players change their play style when this is a PVP game and/or fit your play style?
Who said Eve is a pure PvP game? It has large elements of PvP but it's not strictly a PvP game. Many people play Eve just in Empire without touching PvP. Get this into your head a player can use whatever means he likes to avoid PvP. CCP has left this open so it keeps both areas happy. If you are not happy with it why not pop into 0.0 for a free reign. It's as simple as that.
Quote:
Now clearly you dont know what damage farmers can and will do to a mmo.. and CCP do care, but not in the way that we as players do.
OK can you please show me the stats of what damage farmers actually do in a MMORPG. So far I have seen very little evidence. You say CCP do care but not in the same way? Again what way? You are making off the cuff remarks on stuff you have no real facts on. If someone can show me that we cannot build A because Macro miners do B then fine. Other than that all I hear is you whinging but no actuall solid proof of anything.
Quote:
but the fact is that if some players hate them and have fun hunting them/killing them, who are you to say that we need to change our play style ?
Please also show me where I said you need to change your playstyle? I said (if you bothered reading) that if CCP do not care then why should you?
If it's the jumping corps you are getting cheesed off about then tough. The option is there for people who want to PvP. Don't like it then move to 0.0 and PvP with no restrictions.
Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact mods@ccpgames.com for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler
The Knight said - Oh that is an excellent story of payback, international romance, and James Bondery |
Ace Garpy
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 14:04:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Cailais
War Dodging Solution ver 1.1
The current War Dec system for Eve is essentially flawed - I would like to propose a alternative system which I believe would be of benefit both to an agressor and a defender.
1. Once a War is declared it remains active for 7 days (i.e it cannot be withdrawn) unless one of the following conditions is met.
Attacker surrenders.
Defender surrenders.
2. At the end of the 7 day period the attacker may choose one of two options:
Ceasefire - the War ceases unresolved.
Maintain - the attacker pays for a second 7 days of war.
3. If the attacker chooses a Ceasefire the defender may choose:
Ceasefire - the War ceases unresolved.
Maintain - The defender assumes the role of attacker (and assumes all costs as a result).
Surrendering.
A corp which surrenders admits defeat. The surrendering corp is now a 'Tributary' to the victorious corp.
Tributary Corps.
A corp which has surrenderd a War becomes a Tributary Corporation. All pilots in a Tributary Corp now pay a 5% tax (like a normal corp tax) to their Oppressors (i.e. the corp that defeated them).
A corp may only pay Tribute to one other corp.
If a Tributary Corp is War Decced its Oppressor Corp may do the following:
Abandon Tributary Corp. - All tributes cease and the war between the ex-Tribute corp and its attacker continues as normal.
Intervention. - To hold onto its Tributary Corp the Oppressor Corp now joins the War.
Note: If an Oppressor corp itself is war decced its Tributary Corps are not involved in the war (i.e they are not valid war targets).
Disbanding / Fleeing a War - Refugees.
If a player leaves a Corp that is at War he becomes a 'Refugee'.
Refugees are still valid War Targets, however if they are engaged the attacker suffers a Sec Status loss as a result and the Refugee gains Kill Rights if his ship destroyed. Refugee status lasts for 7 days.
Refugee vs Refugee. Its possible pilots from both sides of a conflict will leave their parent corps. In this case refugees have no aggression rights against each other.
Ronin.
A player that does not join a Player Corp is classed as a Ronin (or masterless). Ronin cannot gain kill rights, and any attacker losses no Sec Status for attacking a Ronin player. (nb concord will still respond to an attack on a Ronin player). New players in NPC Corps will become Ronin after a period of 6 weeks.
Removing Tributary status.
A corp may relieve itself of Tributary status by declaring War on its Oppressor. The first 7 days of this Rebellion are treated as a free
War dec to both parties. At the end of the Rebellion period the costs and option to maintain the War are passed to the Oppressor Corp. During the Rebellion period if the Oppressor Corp surrenders it merely looses its Tribute Corp (it does not become Oppressed itself).
A corp may change its Tributary status by surrending to another Corp which has War Decced it (in essence it changes 'alliegance'). If the origonal Oppressor Corp intervened it is now at War with both the attacking corp, and its lost Tributary Corp.
An Oppresor Corp may abandon a Tributary Corp at any time.
Any comments welcome.
C.
I PvP and I enjoy it. I also enjoy pootling about Empire trading.
The problem with war dec's they can be used for bullying (and have been). If a player base is purely into trading and are war dec'd by a local pirate corp in empire what then?
Your solution is also flawed as allows the attacker to get away with too much.
Let me put it another way. when I fist started playing 3 years ago the small corp my friends and I formed for trade in Empire were war dec'd by a load of lads (local pirates) and we didn't stand a chance. So we changed corps. We were war decc'd again because we were allegedly trespassing. No fun!
Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact mods@ccpgames.com for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler
The Knight said - Oh that is an excellent story of payback, international romance, and James Bondery |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
The Church.
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 14:06:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Ace Garpy
BS
Not going to bother picking your post apart, because it's basically all rubbish. You go on about chosing wether to pvp or not in a non-consentual pvp game. Then you defend macro's and pharmers.
Stop posting.
 |
|
Ace Garpy
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 14:25:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Ace Garpy
BS
Not going to bother picking your post apart, because it's basically all rubbish. You go on about chosing wether to pvp or not in a non-consentual pvp game. Then you defend macro's and pharmers.
Stop posting.
Then you obviously didn't bother to read it properly did you.
The FACT is numbnuts that you DONT have to PvP. Consensual or not the method to avoid PvP is there and CCP have already indicated it's THERE for a reason. Read the bloody posts!
I have not defended macro's OR farmers. Please show me where I have actually defended them? Again you did not read my post properly. I said please show me the facts as to what they are doing! Everyone bemoans them in every MMORPG but they ae still there. I don't care if they are there or not right now as they do not personally effect me or my game. If they are effecting someone (maybe you?) then fine then CCP should deal with them properly and work at deleting them off Eve forever.
They are not so what are you going to do about it?
Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact mods@ccpgames.com for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler
The Knight said - Oh that is an excellent story of payback, international romance, and James Bondery |
Nur Vadenn
Amarr
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 14:28:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Ki An
As you can see, there really IS a need for a mechanic that allows serial persecution of one specific individual in high sec by an arbitrary number of arbitrarily experienced and dedicated other players. However, the victim DOES have the means of sanctuary. It's called an NPC corp. In fact, it's such a good sanctuary that it needs to be penalized more.
There is not an additional need for such a mechanic because it already exists in the form of war declaration. As said in previous posts by you. A group can follow someone or a group of people around for as long as they have ISK, time, and are so inclined.
Originally by: Ki An
War dodging is done by people who won't take responsability for their own actions. All wars are fought for a reason. Wether that reason is that the target corp has cornered a market, stolen your ore, or simply failed to provide adequate protection for themselves doesn't matter.
Wrong. War dodging is done by either people who want a non-combat resolution to a war, or in order to shun some responsibility for something they might have done. If you're not interested in fighting a war you're left with very few options as a group. Negotiation, a path with various possibilities for success depending heavily on who you might be dealing with. Paying someone else to fight, also dubious in value since in gives the aggressors EXACTLY what they want, a fight. Most that don't want to fight likely don't want to encourage or perpetuate wars. Not playing the game, a path some follow, but most would only consider as a last resort. Finally, drop corporation and either reform under a different name, or go your separate ways. The thing is unless they switch characters the attackers have perfect surveillance regarding the corporation jumping. You have a ready made list served up to you telling you exactly where someone has jumped to. You have but to right click and show info.
Originally by: Ki An
Finally, a corporation, in Eve, is a group of players flying under a common banner. What's important is not the name of the corp, or the database entry of that particular corpname. What's important is, always has been, and always will be, the players in that corp. Those are the ones who's actions can get your corp decced, and those are the ones that needs to be able to take responsability. The name of the corp means absolutely nothing. However, with corp jumping being as prevalent as it is, wars are meaningless. They might as well be free of charge, as you get nothing out of them anyway.
So, to make this post a bit more constructive: Either remove the cost of a war declaration and leave the rest as it is now, or introduce a way to prevent unreasonable corp jumping and limit NPC corporations.
Again with changing how the game works. Why? War declarations are fine. An argument can be made that they are too cheap in fact, but they are indeed fine. Jumping corporations to avoid wars is fine within limits already defined by CCP as not being an exploit. So you didn't get that guy/group today, there is always tomorrow to nail them to the wall. NPC corporations are fine, they embody a different style of play. They also deal with the glaring issues inherent in player run organizations. Thinking that style of play is wrong or wrong headed does not make it invalid. Game changes to make a war aggressors life easier are simply not needed.
|
Ace Garpy
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 14:33:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Nur Vadenn
Originally by: Ki An
As you can see, there really IS a need for a mechanic that allows serial persecution of one specific individual in high sec by an arbitrary number of arbitrarily experienced and dedicated other players. However, the victim DOES have the means of sanctuary. It's called an NPC corp. In fact, it's such a good sanctuary that it needs to be penalized more.
There is not an additional need for such a mechanic because it already exists in the form of war declaration. As said in previous posts by you. A group can follow someone or a group of people around for as long as they have ISK, time, and are so inclined.
Originally by: Ki An
War dodging is done by people who won't take responsability for their own actions. All wars are fought for a reason. Wether that reason is that the target corp has cornered a market, stolen your ore, or simply failed to provide adequate protection for themselves doesn't matter.
Wrong. War dodging is done by either people who want a non-combat resolution to a war, or in order to shun some responsibility for something they might have done. If you're not interested in fighting a war you're left with very few options as a group. Negotiation, a path with various possibilities for success depending heavily on who you might be dealing with. Paying someone else to fight, also dubious in value since in gives the aggressors EXACTLY what they want, a fight. Most that don't want to fight likely don't want to encourage or perpetuate wars. Not playing the game, a path some follow, but most would only consider as a last resort. Finally, drop corporation and either reform under a different name, or go your separate ways. The thing is unless they switch characters the attackers have perfect surveillance regarding the corporation jumping. You have a ready made list served up to you telling you exactly where someone has jumped to. You have but to right click and show info.
Originally by: Ki An
Finally, a corporation, in Eve, is a group of players flying under a common banner. What's important is not the name of the corp, or the database entry of that particular corpname. What's important is, always has been, and always will be, the players in that corp. Those are the ones who's actions can get your corp decced, and those are the ones that needs to be able to take responsability. The name of the corp means absolutely nothing. However, with corp jumping being as prevalent as it is, wars are meaningless. They might as well be free of charge, as you get nothing out of them anyway.
So, to make this post a bit more constructive: Either remove the cost of a war declaration and leave the rest as it is now, or introduce a way to prevent unreasonable corp jumping and limit NPC corporations.
Again with changing how the game works. Why? War declarations are fine. An argument can be made that they are too cheap in fact, but they are indeed fine. Jumping corporations to avoid wars is fine within limits already defined by CCP as not being an exploit. So you didn't get that guy/group today, there is always tomorrow to nail them to the wall. NPC corporations are fine, they embody a different style of play. They also deal with the glaring issues inherent in player run organizations. Thinking that style of play is wrong or wrong headed does not make it invalid. Game changes to make a war aggressors life easier are simply not needed.
Good post and very well worded!
Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact mods@ccpgames.com for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler
The Knight said - Oh that is an excellent story of payback, international romance, and James Bondery |
MongWen
Farmer Killers
United Corporations Against Macros
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 14:33:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Ace Garpy
You don't need a reason to war dec so it's easy to spam war dec's about on anyone. So it matters not one iota as to why we had war dec's. We were just in an area in Empire where certain characters (corps) liked to spam others. So why is it BS? I don't understand your reasoning? If the corp doesn't want to fight in PvP then why should they? Why enforce a player base to fight a war they do not want? Get over it.
All wars are fought for a reason, a corp cornered a market, stolen your ore/ice, or they just happen to have a member(s) that is a pain in the neck for others, or more..
Originally by: Ace Garpy
Why? Again you can spam anyone with a war dec. Why ruin someones own game and all they have worked for to appeal to possible open bullying. You could actually call it harrasment if you continually war dec the same corp again and again...but it's not now is it.
quiting and rejoining the same corp has been a exploit for a long time, if you want more info on why ask a GM.
And redecing the same corp over and over, may have a reason to it dont you think ?
Originally by: Ace Garpy
If you had done the same and actually thought about what you are writing instead of jumping on the tin foil hat brigade perhaps you would realise that actually these people don't want to fight. So move on with your life and stop harrasing other players (or whatever).
Now i wonder why Farmers dont want to fight... it may have something to do with a stop and or drop in profits, now that is a good thing when it comes to farmers. and i can not say what other corps/alliances views on it are.
Originally by: Ace Garpy
Who said Eve is a pure PvP game? It has large elements of PvP but it's not strictly a PvP game. Many people play Eve just in Empire without touching PvP. Get this into your head a player can use whatever means he likes to avoid PvP. CCP has left this open so it keeps both areas happy. If you are not happy with it why not pop into 0.0 for a free reign. It's as simple as that.
hmm ok, so if you take 2 real players that playes the game by mining veld, both sell it on the market, and ofc they both want to sell it at the best price they can.
if the market issent Player VS Player, then EVE issent a MMO.
you see not all PvP is fighting, even the forums is in a way PvP tho it has not got a way to "Win"...
Originally by: Ace Garpy
OK can you please show me the stats of what damage farmers actually do in a MMORPG. So far I have seen very little evidence. You say CCP do care but not in the same way? Again what way? You are making off the cuff remarks on stuff you have no real facts on. If someone can show me that we cannot build A because Macro miners do B then fine. Other than that all I hear is you whinging but no actuall solid proof of anything.
I wonder why framers have destroyed a major part off Online games over the years....
and i wonder why i see belt by belt gone to players that are online 23/7 mining the same system and moving on to the next when the belts are gone....
and i wonder why i see laggy systems like Motsu, Salia, Isenairos, are laggy with 50-70 players in local with names that looks like they just pushed random letter when creating the char... now tell me that they are not making the lag?
Originally by: Ace Garpy
Please also show me where I said you need to change your playstyle? I said (if you bothered reading) that if CCP do not care then why should you?
If it's the jumping corps you are getting cheesed off about then tough. The option is there for people who want to PvP. Don't like it then move to 0.0 and PvP with no restrictions.
Since UCAM uses decs sometimes as a tool, and we feel the system is not the way it shood be.. shood we change our play style? ... no we go and find other ways to do what we do. and that is called adapting...
now going more into that is a diffrent topic..
Opinions are my opinions. They do not reflect view of UCAM, if it is not stated |
Cailais
Amarr
VITOC
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:39:00 -
[165]
If you look at my proposal again Ace you can see that your small corp would have had an option to surrender to those 'pirates' - not disband.
If you were war decced again, theres the potential for your 'oppressors' to come into the war on your side. So in fact, its rather heavily weighted against the attacker in that situation.
C.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:39:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Ace Garpy
The FACT is numbnuts that you DONT have to PvP. Consensual or not the method to avoid PvP is there and CCP have already indicated it's THERE for a reason. Read the bloody posts!
Yes, it's there, and with a few exceptions, it's legal. However, CCP has dilluted the war dec mechanic so much now that there simply is no reason to declare war. The targets will simply change corp, costing you a couple of million without you gaining ANYTHING. This is unbalanced, and that's why this thread is here. ****wad!
Originally by: Ace Garpy
I have not defended macro's OR farmers. Please show me where I have actually defended them? Again you did not read my post properly. I said please show me the facts as to what they are doing!
Which is the same as defending them. To take a, albeit much dispised, RL analogy: I say, "show me proof the ****s killed any Jews". You say, rightfully so, "you are defending the ****s by casting unneeded doubt on what they did". It's a bad example but it illuminates the point, which is: Don't ******* defend the macro's!
Originally by: Ace Garpy
Everyone bemoans them in every MMORPG but they ae still there. I don't care if they are there or not right now as they do not personally effect me or my game. If they are effecting someone (maybe you?) then fine then CCP should deal with them properly and work at deleting them off Eve forever.
If you cannot see how they affect the game then you are stupid beyond belief. I am done being nice here, and I'll just say what I am sure most reading your posts are thinking: Idiot!
Originally by: Ace Garpy
They are not so what are you going to do about it?
Deal with them ourselves? Which this is basically all about? Taking responsability? I know that's an alien word to you, but some of us actually enjoy this game, and would rather see it free of macro's. I'd also like to be able to dec idiots such as yourself, but given the fact that you hide in an untouchable NPC corp, I can't. How is that fair?
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Valora Grear
Tau Ceti Global Production
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:43:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Valora Grear on 14/12/2007 14:46:33
Originally by: MasterEnt
Clearly you outgunned them.
Get over it and find a prey that can bite back.
But maybe you like easy targets and are too scared to wardec a corp that has the potential to tear you to shreds
Did you even bother reading any of the posts in the thread. They are RMTs. There is no reason to feel anything but upset that CCP continues to allow them to function.
My suggestion is that a corp war dec applies to the personal lvl unless they join a NPC corp which they can only do after 24 hours of the war dec and which they then cannot leave for x time. Granted they can still function safely in NPC corps but that's no differnt from now anyway and my suggestion fixes your problem.
*courtesy of www.flickr.com
I hate the jpeg format... |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:45:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Nur Vadenn
There is not an additional need for such a mechanic because it already exists in the form of war declaration. As said in previous posts by you. A group can follow someone or a group of people around for as long as they have ISK, time, and are so inclined.
There is a need to protect the war mechanic enough for it to be effective. Right now, it really isn't. It used to be, but not anymore. Now people are just being pussies and jumping corp as soon as they smell the heat.
Originally by: Nur Vadenn
Wrong. War dodging is done by either people who want a non-combat resolution to a war, or in order to shun some responsibility for something they might have done. If you're not interested in fighting a war you're left with very few options as a group. Negotiation, a path with various possibilities for success depending heavily on who you might be dealing with. Paying someone else to fight, also dubious in value since in gives the aggressors EXACTLY what they want, a fight. Most that don't want to fight likely don't want to encourage or perpetuate wars. Not playing the game, a path some follow, but most would only consider as a last resort. Finally, drop corporation and either reform under a different name, or go your separate ways. The thing is unless they switch characters the attackers have perfect surveillance regarding the corporation jumping. You have a ready made list served up to you telling you exactly where someone has jumped to. You have but to right click and show info.
Really now, that's just stupid. To gain a non-combat resolution to a war there are several options, some of them listed here by you, and then promptly dismissed. Jumping corp should NOT be one of them, at least not for the entire corp to just disband and then reform at a whim. Can't you understand this now?
Originally by: Nur Vadenn
Again with changing how the game works. Why? War declarations are fine. An argument can be made that they are too cheap in fact, but they are indeed fine. Jumping corporations to avoid wars is fine within limits already defined by CCP as not being an exploit. So you didn't get that guy/group today, there is always tomorrow to nail them to the wall. NPC corporations are fine, they embody a different style of play. They also deal with the glaring issues inherent in player run organizations. Thinking that style of play is wrong or wrong headed does not make it invalid. Game changes to make a war aggressors life easier are simply not needed.
War declarations are NOT fine. They would be fine if they could actually achieve what they promise to achieve - forcing responsability. They cannot, because people just disband and reform, disband and reform, ad naseum.
NPC corporations are NOT fine. They are far too lucrative to stay in, and should be reserved for NEW players learning about the game. Anything larger than a cruiser should be off limits for an NPC corper. Nothing larger than a Tier 1 hauler. Nothing more advanced than named modules. No contracts. No trade channels. No nothing except the very basic needed to gain enough knowledge to proceed to the real game.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:46:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 14/12/2007 14:46:24
Originally by: MongWen
Have you even read the OP?
Ok, so you say that you had a 8 months with wars, ok, what was the reason for those wars ? and as the OP says it total bs that people can jump the corp faster than he can dec and make a dent, and doing it over and over with all of the memmbers joining the same corp, not going thir own way like you...
now if they had joined back to the same corp to avoid the dec it is a exploit.
if you had read somemore of the posts you whod have seen that it issent about leaving a corp with a dec, its about doing it over and over and over again and just making new corps with new names, with the same members in them.
And now would you explain exactly how all the ideas in this thread are going to help the OP's issue without screwing over all the legitimate players that don't enjoy PvP? Because EVERY idea in this thread is focus specifically on making someone fight that just wants to "play" within the boundaries that CCP has set. Come up with something that is within the spirit of the current rules and we will discuss it.
And give some drawback to the empire griefer corps that wardec just for the fun of wardeccing. Why should THEY have free reign to attack everyone they feel like at any time they wish, and be able to turn and hide if they bite the wrong dog's bone?
Quote:
EVE is a PVP game, always has been, and guess it will always be a PVP game.
I am getting really tired of everyone spewing this BS. READ OVUER'S QUOTE!!! It doesn't say "Eve is a PvP game", it says "Eve is PRIMARILY a PvP game". Big difference, but the main thing is PRIMARILY doesn't mean this is counter-strike in space, you cannot shoot everyone all the time. He went on to say IN THAT SAME PARAGRAPH that "balancing that PvP is difficult". Meaning that there must be a blend of PvP and non-PvP activities.
I really don't care about "farmers are ruining MMOs" if the only answers people can come up with will ruin it for the majority of legitimate players. If CCP won't deal with those players, then don't try to change the rules in such a way that screws over the rest of the more peaceful players. I can only hope that CCP agrees with my thoughts on this, and have a good idea they do based on the quote in my Sig....
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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MongWen
Farmer Killers
United Corporations Against Macros
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:50:00 -
[170]
Edited by: MongWen on 14/12/2007 14:55:12
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
I am getting really tired of everyone spewing this BS. READ OVUER'S QUOTE!!! It doesn't say "Eve is a PvP game", it says "Eve is PRIMARILY a PvP game". Big difference, but the main thing is PRIMARILY doesn't mean this is counter-strike in space, you cannot shoot everyone all the time. He went on to say IN THAT SAME PARAGRAPH that "balancing that PvP is difficult". Meaning that there must be a blend of PvP and non-PvP activities.
soo the market is PvE then, good to know that. fyi most of the tools in game is built for PLAYER VS PLAYER.
tbh this is waaay off topic, and it is alot of ideas here that are not 100% good, but they are better than the current system as it is today
Opinions are my opinions. They do not reflect view of UCAM, if it is not stated |
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Ares Lightfeather
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:51:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Cailais
War Dodging Solution ver 1.1
Disbanding / Fleeing a War - Refugees.
If a player leaves a Corp that is at War he becomes a 'Refugee'.
Refugees are still valid War Targets, however if they are engaged the attacker suffers a Sec Status loss as a result and the Refugee gains Kill Rights if his ship destroyed. Refugee status lasts for 7 days.
Refugee vs Refugee. Its possible pilots from both sides of a conflict will leave their parent corps. In this case refugees have no aggression rights against each other.
That solution would be a really bad one, for just one reason imo. The refugee mechanic you propose is completely flawed.
The point of leaving the corp when war-decked is to get a protection from the wardecking corp. With your system, you are still vulnerable as if you still were in the corp. Which means the only way to be safe is to set a long skill and not coming again for a week. Furthermore, you prevent them from attacking your opponent, leaving them even more vulnerable than they already are. Suicide ganking and low sec gankers have proven since a long time that sec status loss are not a concern.
Basically, you transformed wardecks, a tool made for having fun pvping in empire, into a tool made for griefing, but in the bad sense of the term : harassment.
Here are some changes to your refugees mechanics :
- gets into a "corp_name_refugees" corp for the duration of the war, during which they don't have access to any of the corp possession (hangars, POS, corp wallet are not accessible), this corp works like the noob corps do now (no wardecks). This will removing corp jumping as a game mechanic if you play legit.
- they come back into the corp at the end of the war(s).
What is the point of this ? To be able to log in the game. Going to a noob corp shouldn't be mandatory to play a game (that's what you propose for all casual players and people that enjoy pvp occasionnaly or not at all) except you also remove the noob corp.
Yes, your Ronin mechanics are also bad. The situation for people that don't work to get in a corp shouldn't get any worse than they are now. Besides, the name is really badly chosen since there is nothing in common with a real ronin in your description, what you describe much closer to a freelancer. This role is currently fulfilled with how the noob corp works. There is nothing to fix (especially not the sec loss when attacking), and nothing to change. This change is just aimed to remove some penalties for suicide gankers, and offers nothing useful to the game, except forcing people to be ransomed in corps.
Another point : I don't see anywhere the option of fighting another corp for the "ransoming" corp. Let's say corp A went to war with corp B, and beat it into submission. Corp A now has 5% of their income. Corp C wants this income : there should be an option to fight Corp A directly for the income rights, without bothering corp B.
In short, your idea just removes most of the penalties for pirates, gives them more possibilities, while creating some interesting possibilities (ransoming sounds fun), and has huge flaws that lets people use a tool meant to have fun for harassment purposes. Finally, it completely screws any attempt to make a trade / mining / industry corp in the process.
-- random eve-related content -- |
Ares Lightfeather
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 14:58:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 14/12/2007 14:59:10
And using the fact that some people are farming and selling isk, no matter how much "proof" you have, is no reason for destroying the game mechanics enough to screw normal players.
Otherwise, just jump on the stupid bandwagon :
- macro miners and isk sellers mine ! let's ban mining !
- macro miners and isk sellers do mission ! let's ban missionning !
- macro miners and isk sellers are ratting ! let's ban ratting !
- macro miners and isk sellers do pew pew(yeah sometimes they do) ! let's ban pew pew !
Oops. There is nothing in eve anymore.
-- random eve-related content -- |
Ace Garpy
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:59:00 -
[173]
God Ki-an and MongWen you guys are ******** beyond the point of it being sad.
If you want to analyse further about war dec's then fine. In a nutshell any corp can war-dec another for no other reason than they get kicks out of bullying smaller corps. I repeat there does not need to be a reason. This can be bully boy tactics or in my case when we first started we took up the challenge and won a few and lost a few. It was all good fun initially until we decided to go our seperate ways and were then war dec'd again and again regardless of the small corps we formed by the same people. That really is not fun when you have taken a different direction in your game.
So please tell me where there is a right for another player to continuously hound another one? Mature that is not and the abuse over the con was childish beyond belief.
Again you say I am as good as defending Macros / farmers. You made your own judgement on that based on some flawed analysis of my writing. I ask you how have they effected you directly? I mean you personally? Not basing your opinions on what you have heard etc? If they have not effected you personally then where is your beef? If you know someone (or yourself) where macro's have farmed all the ore in Gelfliven and it is making your life hell then you have a valid point and it is changing your gameplay and CCP should be looking at better methods at dealing with it!
CCP obviously doesn't see it as a major issue otherwise there would be a bigger push on deleting them.
Being refreshingly honest they do not effect me personally as I have not seen any facts as to where they are damaging Eve. But then I am not mining or doing whatever they may be effecing something? I am not defending them just asking a question that you don't seem to have an answer on?
If I wanted to defend them you could say how many people mine in Eve? Is the markets mass of minerals due to macro miners flooding the market? How many minerals would be on the market if someone wasn't mining constantly?
Personally I don't care (right now) as it does not effect my game or the way I play. Like I said if someone's game is effected then CCP should be listening more to the facts and perhaps placing certain conditions shall we say in place that ensure macro miners etc are killed off.
Again it boils down to this being a simple fun game so get over it.
Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact mods@ccpgames.com for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler
The Knight said - Oh that is an excellent story of payback, international romance, and James Bondery |
Nur Vadenn
Amarr
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 15:00:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Cailais
Ronin.
A player that does not join a Player Corp is classed as a Ronin (or masterless). Ronin cannot gain kill rights, and any attacker losses no Sec Status for attacking a Ronin player. (nb concord will still respond to an attack on a Ronin player). New players in NPC Corps will become Ronin after a period of 6 weeks.
I see two issues with your suggestion. Since every player in an NPC corporation will end up as Ronin, in addition to the current limitations they:
- Can't defend their ore from theft because of never getting killrights.
- Don't get killrights if ganked at a gate.
- Are free of consequence to the attacker when attacked by, but not limited to, high-sec suicides, low-sec gate camps, low-sec pirates, low-sec anti-pirates, low-sec bored PvPers, and anti-macro vigilantes.
Essentially you're painting a bullseye on their backs. Why? Is it so farmers are more easily accessible? Why does an entire group of legitimate players need to be punished because of a few eledged farmers? I'm surprised you still kept Concord responding to aggression toward Ronin. I suppose that might be too blatant though, right?
Originally by: Cailais
Disbanding / Fleeing a War - Refugees.
If a player leaves a Corp that is at War he becomes a 'Refugee'.
Refugees are still valid War Targets, however if they are engaged the attacker suffers a Sec Status loss as a result and the Refugee gains Kill Rights if his ship destroyed. Refugee status lasts for 7 days.
Refugee vs Refugee. Its possible pilots from both sides of a conflict will leave their parent corps. In this case refugees have no aggression rights against each other.
First, as I've said before, there is no good reason for an individual that leaves an organization to still be bound by that organization's conflicts. Not for 7 days and not for 7 minutes. Once their corporation ticker changes thats it. If your beef is with that individual you can watch and wait for them to join another player organization. Hell you can suicide a ship against them at any time. The current mechanics allow these remedies for the situation.
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Ace Garpy
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.14 15:05:00 -
[175]
Originally by: MongWen
Edited by: MongWen on 14/12/2007 14:55:12
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
I am getting really tired of everyone spewing this BS. READ OVUER'S QUOTE!!! It doesn't say "Eve is a PvP game", it says "Eve is PRIMARILY a PvP game". Big difference, but the main thing is PRIMARILY doesn't mean this is counter-strike in space, you cannot shoot everyone all the time. He went on to say IN THAT SAME PARAGRAPH that "balancing that PvP is difficult". Meaning that there must be a blend of PvP and non-PvP activities.
soo the market is PvE then, good to know that. fyi most of the tools in game is built for PLAYER VS PLAYER.
Yes the market can be PvE orientated if that's your style. How many people here do NPC mission runs for cash? Maybe they even run some NPC complexes too? All are PvE and I am sure all are used more often than not?
It's like any other MMORPG game with PvP you adapt to the mechanics it provides to your gameplay style. It really is that simple.
Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact mods@ccpgames.com for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler
The Knight said - Oh that is an excellent story of payback, international romance, and James Bondery |
Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
|
Posted - 2007.12.14 15:22:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Ace Garpy
...
The problem with war dec's they can be used for bullying (and have been).
...
Um... It's a war. Hence the term war dec. Bullying? Isn't that pretty much what wars are about? Seeing who has the biggest stick?
If you want to show up with no stick at all, that doesn't imply that the other side's motivations should be questioned ("you're just wanting to pick on defenseless blah blah"). It's just you trying to divert attention away from your own lack of preperations.
Originally by: Ace Garpy
...
If a player base is purely into trading and are war dec'd by a local pirate corp in empire what then?
...
They should die because they failed to evolve into something sustainable.
And that pretty much sums up the current problems with war decs. Players don't want to be bothered with preparing for such an eventuality and they expect the game mechanics to protect them from it.
->
CCP caves to these requirements.
->
Leaves loopholes through which isk seller farmers can easily slip through.
->
OP's complaint. It's not a hard trail to follow.
OP, I totally get your motivations and your complaint about the system. You can thank your fellow players for it.
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WSSH |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.12.14 15:31:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Ace Garpy
God Ki-an and MongWen you guys are ******** beyond the point of it being sad.
I would not throw rocks in glass-houses if I where you.
Originally by: Ace Garpy
If you want to analyse further about war dec's then fine. In a nutshell any corp can war-dec another for no other reason than they get kicks out of bullying smaller corps. I repeat there does not need to be a reason. This can be bully boy tactics or in my case when we first started we took up the challenge and won a few and lost a few. It was all good fun initially until we decided to go our seperate ways and were then war dec'd again and again regardless of the small corps we formed by the same people. That really is not fun when you have taken a different direction in your game.
So, you assume this corp you talk about had no reason for deccing you except being bullies? Looking at what you wrote, I am pretty damned sure they had a good reason to dec you, but you never bothered to ask them. Then when you all packed up and left, they where left with no choice but to dec your splinter corps, as you still hadn't either beaten them off or remedied the reason for them deccing you. Did you smack them maybe? Did you prance about in your CNR with a smug attitude? Both probable reasons, and legit ones at that.
Originally by: Ace Garpy
So please tell me where there is a right for another player to continuously hound another one? Mature that is not and the abuse over the con was childish beyond belief.
Where is the right? It's a CCP given right. Like I'm going to use my CCP given right to hound you should you ever leave the safe bounds of that NPC corp of yours.
Originally by: Ace Garpy
Again you say I am as good as defending Macros / farmers. You made your own judgement on that based on some flawed analysis of my writing. I ask you how have they effected you directly? I mean you personally? Not basing your opinions on what you have heard etc? If they have not effected you personally then where is your beef? If you know someone (or yourself) where macro's have farmed all the ore in Gelfliven and it is making your life hell then you have a valid point and it is changing your gameplay and CCP should be looking at better methods at dealing with it!
I find it incredible that you don't understand how macro's affect the game in a one-world game with a player based economy. The macro's are ******* up the market. They fill the market with minerals, allowing them to fall in price, messing up for every ship builder in the game. Including me. I am personally affected by this because I build ships. If you do nothing but run missions I can understand why you don't feel affected, but then again, if you do nothing but run missions you are the scum of Eve and should be Concorded everytime you undock imo, so I'm not particularly interested in your opinion in that case.
Originally by: Ace Garpy
CCP obviously doesn't see it as a major issue otherwise there would be a bigger push on deleting them.
God, your stupidity is horrendous.
Originally by: Ace Garpy
Being refreshingly honest they do not effect me personally as I have not seen any facts as to where they are damaging Eve. But then I am not mining or doing whatever they may be effecing something? I am not defending them just asking a question that you don't seem to have an answer on?
Originally by: Ace Garpy
If I wanted to defend them you could say how many people mine in Eve? Is the markets mass of minerals due to macro miners flooding the market? How many minerals would be on the market if someone wasn't mining constantly?
A lo |