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Dax Jarvanus
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:03:00 -
[1]
Why do shield boosters get a mod that allows for a 30% shield boost bonus, when armor tankers get nothing of the like. And to follow this sort of logic, a race such as Gallente that have an advanced proficiency with drones as a racial characteristic get nerfed on the Myrm's use of heavy drones (75 bandwidth? come on). Seems like this is just a clear cut example of the hard-on that Devs have always had for Caldari. I just don't understand it. If you can explain it to me, then ill be happy, or if there IS a similar alternative for armor tankers, then id like to know that too. And before you accuse me of whining, I bring this up only because the drone nerf was enacted in the spirit of 'fairness', and continuing with this spirit, where is the fairness in this situation?
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Ozzie Asrail
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:06:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ozzie Asrail on 13/12/2007 19:06:22 Armour tankers use 2 reps. Works out about the same unless you start comparing huge isk faction mods. -----
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Matthew Cooper
Who What When Where Why and How
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:09:00 -
[3]
Before modules/skills, armor tanks have higher starting resistances overall than shield tanks.
Originally by: Tarminic Stop posting with your alt Kieron.
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Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:13:00 -
[4]
A shield tank is not an armour tank, switch if it annys you that much, In this game not all things are the same.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:13:00 -
[5]
Myrmidon was overpowered out of all proportion to other battlecruisers.
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Tashiell Gao
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:13:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Tashiell Gao on 13/12/2007 19:15:03 with above 2 replies, also shield tanking uses midslots
Edit: actually 4 replies god people posts fast.
Tashiell Gao,
Minmatar in-side, RolePlayer. |
Eduoard Dantes
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:16:00 -
[7]
Shouldn't even be in this forum. You'd get some really good technical answers to your question in the ships and modules forum, as many experienced players don't even check the general forums anymore.
Try asking again there, and you'll get some really good answers. Until then, <try> shield tanking. Are you trying to state that shield-tanking is better than armor tanking?
Don't try asking for things that would just homogenise the game. Shield-tanking != Armor tanking. It's way different, has different applications, strengths and weaknesses.
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Caligulus
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dax Jarvanus Why do shield boosters get a mod that allows for a 30% shield boost bonus, when armor tankers get nothing of the like. And to follow this sort of logic, a race such as Gallente that have an advanced proficiency with drones as a racial characteristic get nerfed on the Myrm's use of heavy drones (75 bandwidth? come on). Seems like this is just a clear cut example of the hard-on that Devs have always had for Caldari. I just don't understand it. If you can explain it to me, then ill be happy, or if there IS a similar alternative for armor tankers, then id like to know that too. And before you accuse me of whining, I bring this up only because the drone nerf was enacted in the spirit of 'fairness', and continuing with this spirit, where is the fairness in this situation?
Clearly you didn't examine armor rigs and shield rigs. Furthermore it's easier to achieve a higher overall resistance level in an armor tank then it is on a shield tank which means you don't need to rep as many HP. ------------------------------------------------- **** Name ONE thing that your windows comp can do that my MAC cant
**** Right click. |
Grim Vandal
Caldari Burn Proof
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:37:00 -
[9]
It is already a shame that armor tanking is so similar to shield tanking! its actually pretty lame in my book how simple eve handles that matter ...
balance is needed but definately not to reduce diversity.
I really hate WoW/blizzard for its lame playstyle but look at starcraft and you get a clue how balance can be achieved without destroying diversity.
Armor tanking should be TOTALLY different to shield tanking but thats too hard to figure out it seems.
Greetings Grim |
JamnOne
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:48:00 -
[10]
Hey Dax -
At what cost do they get the 30% shield boost bonus? I am sure there is something there that counteracts this. Do they take a hit to Sig Radius, Speed, or CPU?
As for the Myrm's use of heavy drones and a 75 bandwidth - Dude, that is 3 heavys...or wait 5 medium drones. The Drake can use 1 heavy or 5 small drones or 2 medium drones. Just an observation. ________________________
Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
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Praxis1452
The Bastards
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Posted - 2007.12.13 20:01:00 -
[11]
Originally by: JamnOne Hey Dax -
At what cost do they get the 30% shield boost bonus? I am sure there is something there that counteracts this. Do they take a hit to Sig Radius, Speed, or CPU?
As for the Myrm's use of heavy drones and a 75 bandwidth - Dude, that is 3 heavys...or wait 5 medium drones. The Drake can use 1 heavy or 5 small drones or 2 medium drones. Just an observation.
the drake can passive tank close to 1kdps.. it's also not a drone boat. ôHe who must expend his life to prolong life cannot enjoy it, and he who is still seeking for his life does not have it and can as little enjoy it.ö
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Sister Impotentata
Elite Angels Of Death
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Posted - 2007.12.13 20:13:00 -
[12]
If EVE were real life, and people were actually developing new technologies for life in New Eden, more resources would be devoted to developing shield technology than armor. Shields come first, they die first. It only makes sense to make the outer layer of three be the strongest. ----- TANSTAAFL
Originally by: Psycho John Petrucci If there's any point where you feel it's too difficult, then just stop. Because you just, you don't have it, you're just not good.
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Dax Jarvanus
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2007.12.13 20:31:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Dax Jarvanus on 13/12/2007 20:31:59 Thanks for all your replies, that was great... here are some of my own..
"Armour tankers use 2 reps." - Thats not 1 mod that provides a 30% bonus.
"Shouldn't even be in this forum...Don't try asking for things that would just homogenise the game." - I'm not just looking for technical answers, i started this thread to start a discussion on the topic, opinions, tech data, and everything else combined, not just one... :)
"Clearly you didn't examine armor rigs and shield rigs." - Guess I should have made it more clear i was looking for an equivalent mod.
"It is already a shame that armor tanking is so similar to shield tanking! its actually pretty lame in my book how simple eve handles that matter ...", "Shields come first, they die first. It only makes sense to make the outer layer of three be the strongest." - I think these two statements belong together because they show how different the whole process could be. I mean, Im not asking for a whole new combat design, but, if these are the ideas and reasons being suggested, then they deserve exploring. I would love a more in depth repair system. maybe where repairs can be made on the fly while in space, with spare parts kept in cargo holds? They do it on Star Trek all the time!!
Anyway, thanks for all the replies, im sure tehre will be more, and even more about how Im a big whiny baby, well, dont worry about it, cause i already cancelled my acct and am leaving eve... so, you wont have to deal with me much longer..
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N1fty
Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.12.13 20:32:00 -
[14]
You didn't use enough ?!?!?!?!??!?!?!'s I refuse to properly respond to this topic. =============================================
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Joie Mains
Vindicator A Team
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Posted - 2007.12.13 20:35:00 -
[15]
oh my ...
armor tank is not the same as shield tank its should to be like that
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Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.12.13 20:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dax Jarvanus "Armour tankers use 2 reps." - Thats not 1 mod that provides a 30% bonus.
You're right, that's one mod that provides a 100% bonus :)
Shield boosters are extremely cap inefficient - but they boost a lot very rapidly. Armor reps ARE extremely cap efficient - but they repair very little and at the end of a relatively long cycle.
So, what happens from this? Shield boosters are CPU intensive and become cap efficient from fitting a shield boost amplifier; effective shield tanks take 2 mid slots before hardeners. Armor tanks repair twice as much at the same cap:hp_repaired ratio; effective armor tanks take 2 low slots before hardeners.
Armor tanks also have passive EANM's, which after 2 reps are the armor equivalent of a second SBA for shields.
So what's the net result? Active shield tanks and armor tanks are nearly identical in most respects (Not including need for speed or tackling mods, or damage mods. With that there's variance in grid/cpu allocation and slot layout to balance individual ships). It's pretty in line really, I just wish the difference wasn't a 1 digit difference in the slot attribute. Maybe some more varying properties than just base resistances
T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers | Eve GUI Tweaks |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.12.13 20:45:00 -
[17]
lmao
OP has found the true way to fail eve
quitting because of boost ampliphiers
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.12.13 20:53:00 -
[18]
Why do armour tankers get a module that gives resistance to all damage type yet uses no cap? passive shield resistance amps only cover one damage type! EANMs and ANP are unfair Whaaaaaaa!! Whaaaa!! Whaaa!! --------------------------------------- Output folder: C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE Delete file: \boot.ini Extract: boot.ini... 100% |
mechtech
Silver Snake Enterprise
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Posted - 2007.12.13 20:55:00 -
[19]
Hmm, maybe, JUST MAYBE, because of the design differences between the 2 tanks?
Armor tanks are more cap efficient, but use more slots.
Shield tanks are much faster at burst repping, but are less cap efficient (unless you get a fully faction shield tank, those outperform armor tanks straight out, at a cost of 1-3 billion isk)
Quitting eve over variety, good riddance o/
And this post was in a whiny tone, if you presented your opinion in an approachable manner, and in the correct forum (ships/modules), you would have gotten a lively discussion, not flames.
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Ferric Orlofsson
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Posted - 2007.12.13 21:03:00 -
[20]
I found a video which explains tanking pretty well, worth a look
Tank it!
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2007.12.13 21:10:00 -
[21]
It would be great if armor repairing should need some kind of nanite paste or similar. So you would have to carry around nice amount of that to repair your armor and once you run out of it, it's done. Shield tanking is way better because you don't need stuff like that.,
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
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Final Requiem
Gallente White Shadow Imperium Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2007.12.13 21:12:00 -
[22]
i'll admit i hate armor tanking simply because you use low slots, meaning no slots for weapon upgrades unless you part with some of your tanking ability. HOWEVER, having used both, i'd say armor tanks from the pure tank stand point do have it easier over all simply because they can run 2 reps for only slightly more then the cost to run 1 shield booster and still have all their mids free for cap recharger's. here's a number breakdown for you to think about....
small shield booster 2 - 30 repair per 2 seconds at 20 cap per cycle small armor repairer 2 - 80 repair per 6 seconds at 40 cap per cycle
work that out to per minute and you're looking at
shield 2 - 900 shield per minute costing 600 cap. armor 2 - 800 armor per minute costing 400 cap.
so if we figure in the boost amp 2 w/ it's +36% and figure in running 2 armor reps (200 extra cap per minute cost can easily be offset by the cap mods that're mid slots) you're looking at
1224 shield 1600 armor
those numbers are BEFORE ship bonuses, which alot of gallente ships get bonus to armor rep, like the myrm for example, but i havnt seen any ships that give shield boost bonuses that're comparable. __________ [-WSI-] "In the name of God, impure souls of the living deal shall be banished into eternal damnation. AMEN." |
Kane Darkstar
Caldari APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.12.13 21:14:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Kane Darkstar on 13/12/2007 21:14:46 To the OP why don't you go fly a Ferox some time then come back and complain how weak the Myrm is now.. I am so sick of all the crying from these ***llente players... Like that ship was supposed to have BS DPS along with a drake like tank. Get real man.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.12.13 21:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Final Requiem those numbers are BEFORE ship bonuses, which alot of gallente ships get bonus to armor rep, like the myrm for example, but i havnt seen any ships that give shield boost bonuses that're comparable.
There are a few like the Cyclone and Maelstrom and also the Hawk and they get a percentage increase to shield boosting per level. --------------------------------------- Output folder: C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE Delete file: \boot.ini Extract: boot.ini... 100% |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.13 21:47:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Haffrage
Originally by: Dax Jarvanus "Armour tankers use 2 reps." - Thats not 1 mod that provides a 30% bonus.
You're right, that's one mod that provides a 100% bonus :)
At x2 cap cap cost, CPU cost, Grid cost.
If duble repping is the way, why shield thankers don't duble boost and instead use a shield boost amplifier?
Quote:
Shield boosters are extremely cap inefficient - but they boost a lot very rapidly. Armor reps ARE extremely cap efficient - but they repair very little and at the end of a relatively long cycle.
So, what happens from this? Shield boosters are CPU intensive and become cap efficient from fitting a shield boost amplifier; effective shield tanks take 2 mid slots before hardeners. Armor tanks repair twice as much at the same cap:hp_repaired ratio; effective armor tanks take 2 low slots before hardeners.
Armor tanks also have passive EANM's, which after 2 reps are the armor equivalent of a second SBA for shields.
So what's the net result? Active shield tanks and armor tanks are nearly identical in most respects (Not including need for speed or tackling mods, or damage mods. With that there's variance in grid/cpu allocation and slot layout to balance individual ships). It's pretty in line really, I just wish the difference wasn't a 1 digit difference in the slot attribute. Maybe some more varying properties than just base resistances
While msot of the above is right, there is a huge difference (that was easily dismissed by an earlyer poster): when you move to the faction modules the shield booster increase drammatically in efficiency, overcoming the armor repairers.
Added to the shield boost amplifier the effect is even more significative.
While the cost of the faction shield booster is somewhat staggering, they are widely used, while the faction armor reppers have a much more reduced market share. Maybe the whole thing should be re-looked as a system where at lower level 1 class of modules has a moderate advantage and then the other class of modules as a huge advantage at higher levels seem a bit skeeved (moderate advantage at low metaitem level vs. moderate advantage at high metaitem level can be ok, huge not).
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.13 22:07:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr Why do armour tankers get a module that gives resistance to all damage type yet uses no cap? passive shield resistance amps only cover one damage type! EANMs and ANP are unfair Whaaaaaaa!! Whaaaa!! Whaaa!!
While you are crying about your module that don't work when not powered up, look closely at the invulnerability field: Ops, it work even if not powered, it has only reduced efficiency, but it multiplied by the shield resist skills bouns.
A nice 3% base resist for each level of the skills when in passive mode - so a straight 15% bonus with the skills at 5.
An ENAM has a base value of 15%, that go to 19,25% with the skills at 5.
While the CPU usage is 40 for the invulnerability against 30 for the ENAM in the end the difference is a 25% lowered efficiency, but a system to get a passive resistance with 1 module to all damage for shield user exist.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.12.13 22:37:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Paulo Damarr Why do armour tankers get a module that gives resistance to all damage type yet uses no cap? passive shield resistance amps only cover one damage type! EANMs and ANP are unfair Whaaaaaaa!! Whaaaa!! Whaaa!!
While you are crying about your module that don't work when not powered up, look closely at the invulnerability field: Ops, it work even if not powered, it has only reduced efficiency, but it multiplied by the shield resist skills bouns.
A nice 3% base resist for each level of the skills when in passive mode - so a straight 15% bonus with the skills at 5.
An ENAM has a base value of 15%, that go to 19,25% with the skills at 5.
While the CPU usage is 40 for the invulnerability against 30 for the ENAM in the end the difference is a 25% lowered efficiency, but a system to get a passive resistance with 1 module to all damage for shield user exist.
[WTS] Skill book 1x sarcasm detection, 10% increase to chance of detecting sarcasm per level.
--------------------------------------- Output folder: C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE Delete file: \boot.ini Extract: boot.ini... 100% |
Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.12.13 22:44:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Ogul on 13/12/2007 22:45:06
Originally by: Venkul Mul
While you are crying about your module that don't work when not powered up, look closely at the invulnerability field: Ops, it work even if not powered, it has only reduced efficiency, but it multiplied by the shield resist skills bouns.
A nice 3% base resist for each level of the skills when in passive mode - so a straight 15% bonus with the skills at 5.
An ENAM has a base value of 15%, that go to 19,25% with the skills at 5.
While the CPU usage is 40 for the invulnerability against 30 for the ENAM in the end the difference is a 25% lowered efficiency, but a system to get a passive resistance with 1 module to all damage for shield user exist.
I really need to tell all my shield-tanking friends to switch their invuls off, they have been doing it wrong all that time...
15% resistance to every damage type with 4 level 5 skills on a t2 module is nothing short of awesome indeed.
--- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try
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Posted - 2007.12.13 23:19:00 -
[29]
Dax, do you see any other cruiser or battle cruiser able to field battleship size weapons?
Light drones are for frigs and destroyers. Medium are for cruisers and battlecruisers. And heavy for Battleships and Dreads.
Otherwise, I would love to put 5 Mega Pulse II on a harbinger. No wait, have to calculate the 5 hvy drones and 6 guns the myrm could use.. so 7 Mega Pulse II's on the harbinger.. yes, sounds very logical.
That cruisers have been able to field hvy drones for allmost 4 years doesn't mean they should keep doing it, just means CCP was 4 years in making the fix for it.
But now you can throw away you myrm (you are welcome to send it to me) or you can fight on (more) equal terms. Well, guess you don't have the guts for that, really.
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Liio
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Posted - 2007.12.13 23:26:00 -
[30]
Don't quit over that... just do what everybody does, train missile & shield tanking & caldari battleship.
I was mad about that "balance" too and often discussing with a caldari friend, and only got to hear that arguments too.
Didn't get over that until i chose Raven for missions too.
Now i can do them in a t2-fitted Raven Navy Issue with a permaboosting T2 Large Shield Booster (lol) just as easy & faster than my Dominix that now collects dust in the hangar (even though he still has x-type afterburner, x-type lar, a-type eanm & 7 x-type hardeners for all the damage types).
That is balance that can only be seen from one side...
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