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Jonny JoJo
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.12.18 14:36:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Tauralathan I'm curious as to what numbers you are using to get 0% profit or even losses at 800 million per Kronos?
Using Jita numbers, as of yesterday, I come up with 506,935,540 building cost per Kronos at ME -5. Assuming a Megathron hull is around 80 million, you're still picking up 200 million per unit in profit. Datacores*320 for 10 attempts is 480 million, best chance decryptors running you 130 million each (not really sure, haven't bought any as I stockpiled a lot prior to the patch) and you are only needing to sell 9 units before you are in the green.
Now if you have maxed skills and max run BPCs, unless the gods really dislike you, there shouldn't be a problem succeeding 3 or 4 times per set of 10 attempts. So you are looking at 1.4 billion in profits for 3 successes, 2.5 billion for 4 successes or heaven forbid 3.6 billion for five successes.
I guess you could be valuing your tech2 components at Jita price sell orders. Though anybody in the ship building business should be making their own components, in my opinion at least.
PS: I am apparently in ur markets making them crash?
Remove the invention from the process. Use the cost of BPC's on the market. This eliminates having to calculate invention luck.
600mil per mauroder cost including invention.
There is healthy profit. However, newbie manufacturers are trying to convince the public that it costs over 800mil to make, because they cannot make their 200% margin.
Dont fall for it suka! 600mil build cost inc invention.
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The Djego
Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.12.18 16:59:00 -
[62]
You canŠt blame people that want to free the Investment with some lose(mayby 10%) and put this cash into new projects. If you keep them it is a risky gamble. What if you canŠt sell it for 6 Month, what if production costs drops or will be reduced by CCP(on the BPCs or Invention needs) to make them more attractive. Also most of the guyes that can buy one and have the skills, allready got a Faction BS with a Faction Fitting ready and there is no mutch point to spend another 1 B into a Ship that will not be so mutch better for its purpose. I would not mind to buy a Paladin(I have to admit I love the paintjob) for my Alt but AWU5 and BS5 will not make it happen. Faction BS are far earlyer avaidable(by Skillpoints) and nearly on par with the the T2 Ships. When the Price hit 500 M i will get myself a Kronus, not to repace my Mission Dominix but to repace my Loot Mega. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
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Ki Shodan
Gallente deep blue
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Posted - 2007.12.18 17:13:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Jet Jettix Basically I was thinking, that if you start ammassing minerals in huge quantities (the method is irrellevant, you can have a mining corp mine for a couple of months or just buy huge stocks of it), then seed the minerals in huge quantities to the market, ...
Has been done with several segments off the market in the past and present. Some succeeded, some not. You just have to be careful, that you do not bite of more than you can chew.
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Corporati Capitalis
Tollan Technologies
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Posted - 2007.12.18 17:36:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo 600mil per mauroder cost including invention.
There is healthy profit. However, newbie manufacturers are trying to convince the public that it costs over 800mil to make, because they cannot make their 200% margin.
Dont fall for it suka! 600mil build cost inc invention.
Whatever you say, chief.
Build cost for Kronos at current Jita prices:
With Test Reports decryptor:
Crystalline Carbonide Armor Plate: 14.271 * 6.227 = 88.865.517 ISK Fusion Reactor Unit: 84.995 * 2.601 = 221.097.494 ISK Ion Thruster: 24.270 * 1.366 = 33.160.101 ISK Magnetometric Sensor Cluster: 17.650 * 911 = 16.084.445 ISK Oscillator Capacitor Unit: 25.330 * 2.786 = 70.566.847 ISK Photon Microprocessor: 9.494 * 1.226 = 11.638.695 ISK Pulse Shield Emitter: 32.571 * 3.289 = 107.126.019 ISK Megathron: 92.723.000 * 1 = 92.723.000 ISK
Total: 641.262.117 ISK
And that's the decryptor with lowest possible waste. Add more than 100m for the +4/+9 run decryptors. Let's make it a round 100m although that's an underestimation. 741m for the +4 decryptor as well as 70m per run invention costs and you get 810m per ship when using Stolen Formulas (actually 837m +/- 1% if you calculate everything as it should be).
But hey, you keep building your ships for 600m and think you are earning a mint. I'll go actually earn a mint on other activities.
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.12.19 11:49:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Corporati Capitalis Build cost for Kronos at current Jita prices:
With Test Reports decryptor:
Crystalline Carbonide Armor Plate: 14.271 * 6.227 = 88.865.517 ISK Fusion Reactor Unit: 84.995 * 2.601 = 221.097.494 ISK Ion Thruster: 24.270 * 1.366 = 33.160.101 ISK Magnetometric Sensor Cluster: 17.650 * 911 = 16.084.445 ISK Oscillator Capacitor Unit: 25.330 * 2.786 = 70.566.847 ISK Photon Microprocessor: 9.494 * 1.226 = 11.638.695 ISK Pulse Shield Emitter: 32.571 * 3.289 = 107.126.019 ISK Megathron: 92.723.000 * 1 = 92.723.000 ISK
Total: 641.262.117 ISK
I find your figures on the high side.
620m is what it cost to build my Kronos. Thats not a hypothetical figure, I calculated it from the entries in my wallet transaction log. I have taken into account the cost of the BPC and the build costs of the Megathron and the t2 components.
The cost of my t2 components was significantly less that the prices you quote. The build cost of the Megathron alone was 20million less than your cost.
I am pretty sure a serious builder could get the build costs below 600million. I may try it myself, it would be a nice side task.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.12.19 15:29:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Banana Torres I find your figures on the high side.
620m is what it cost to build my Kronos. Thats not a hypothetical figure, I calculated it from the entries in my wallet transaction log. I have taken into account the cost of the BPC and the build costs of the Megathron and the t2 components.
The cost of my t2 components was significantly less that the prices you quote. The build cost of the Megathron alone was 20million less than your cost.
I am pretty sure a serious builder could get the build costs below 600million. I may try it myself, it would be a nice side task.
To evaluate the build cost of something, you need to do it with the current component prices, because that's what those components are worth. The price you paid when you actually bought the components is irrelevant. ------------------------------------------
What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs. |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.12.19 16:19:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Shadowsword To evaluate the build cost of something, you need to do it with the current component prices, because that's what those components are worth. The price you paid when you actually bought the components is irrelevant.
Well, actually it is the replacement cost of the ingredients that you should take into account. And I have been reducing the price I am paying on most of my buy orders since the patch. So the replacement cost is less than I originally said. But only by a few percent.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.19 18:06:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Shadowsword To evaluate the build cost of something, you need to do it with the current component prices, because that's what those components are worth. The price you paid when you actually bought the components is irrelevant.
Well, actually it is the replacement cost of the ingredients that you should take into account. And I have been reducing the price I am paying on most of my buy orders since the patch. So the replacement cost is less than I originally said. But only by a few percent.
The cost has to be in the sell order prices, not buy order prices. You have to know if it is better to sell the items on the market than it is to build the ship. The only way to know that is to use sell order prices when considering the build cost. Because you're really making most of your profit off the buy orders, not the building, it seems.
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.12.19 18:42:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 19/12/2007 18:43:42
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Shadowsword To evaluate the build cost of something, you need to do it with the current component prices, because that's what those components are worth. The price you paid when you actually bought the components is irrelevant.
Well, actually it is the replacement cost of the ingredients that you should take into account. And I have been reducing the price I am paying on most of my buy orders since the patch. So the replacement cost is less than I originally said. But only by a few percent.
The cost has to be in the sell order prices, not buy order prices. You have to know if it is better to sell the items on the market than it is to build the ship. The only way to know that is to use sell order prices when considering the build cost. Because you're really making most of your profit off the buy orders, not the building, it seems.
Place competitive buy order. Note the word Competitive. They get filled in a day or two max, and if they dont, then your buy price is too low.
Remember what i said about the 180mil Abaddon?
Sell orders are always higher. I mean, there are shuttles with sell orders at 1 billion isk. Just place a buy order at a *competitive Price* or do what I do - buy in bulk from reseller. Thats what most serious builders do, and not newbie builders.
If I was to sell on from my reseller, well, thats around a tiny bit extra i can make, since I dont want my money tied up for 90 days waiting on someone buying overpriced goods.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.19 19:28:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Shadarle on 19/12/2007 19:29:53
Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 19/12/2007 18:43:42
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Shadowsword To evaluate the build cost of something, you need to do it with the current component prices, because that's what those components are worth. The price you paid when you actually bought the components is irrelevant.
Well, actually it is the replacement cost of the ingredients that you should take into account. And I have been reducing the price I am paying on most of my buy orders since the patch. So the replacement cost is less than I originally said. But only by a few percent.
The cost has to be in the sell order prices, not buy order prices. You have to know if it is better to sell the items on the market than it is to build the ship. The only way to know that is to use sell order prices when considering the build cost. Because you're really making most of your profit off the buy orders, not the building, it seems.
Place competitive buy order. Note the word Competitive. They get filled in a day or two max, and if they dont, then your buy price is too low.
Remember what i said about the 180mil Abaddon?
Sell orders are always higher. I mean, there are shuttles with sell orders at 1 billion isk. Just place a buy order at a *competitive Price* or do what I do - buy in bulk from reseller. Thats what most serious builders do, and not newbie builders.
If I was to sell on from my reseller, well, thats around a tiny bit extra i can make, since I dont want my money tied up for 90 days waiting on someone buying overpriced goods.
You clearly do not understand what I was saying.
The value of components used to build something are the price you could sell them for on the market if you did not use them to build with. You compare this cost to the sell price of the item you are building. If the item is higher you build, if the item is lower you do not build. If the item is higher then you are making profit in two ways, one from buying minerals under cost (using buy orders) and on from building them item.
This is a critical concept to understand. Those who do not are missing out on potential profit.
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.12.19 23:03:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Shadarle The value of components used to build something are the price you could sell them for on the market if you did not use them to build with. You compare this cost to the sell price of the item you are building. If the item is higher you build, if the item is lower you do not build. If the item is higher then you are making profit in two ways, one from buying minerals under cost (using buy orders) and on from building them item.
To be able to make the decision on whether to build or not seems to require the ability to see the future. Sure I could use my mineral stocks to create sell orders that would be more profitable than building a ship. But the act of putting up those sell orders could affect the market in such a way as to make it more profitable to build the ship.
Also I have a lot of assets tied up in ship manufacturing. These would be idle as would the POS, which needs fuel even if it not being used. And most importantly the Logistics Director would be in a bad mood cause she likes building ships.
Its a bit like telling Intel to sell thier stock of gold cause the price of gold has gone up. It may make them money in the short term, but it could seriously affect their ability to make money as a chip maker if they played the metals market wrong.
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.12.20 00:22:00 -
[72]
building isnt instant if prices got more expensive for the parts in that time there is little you can do after using the bpc Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Corporati Capitalis
Tollan Technologies
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Posted - 2007.12.20 21:56:00 -
[73]
Originally by: SiJira building isnt instant if prices got more expensive for the parts in that time there is little you can do after using the bpc
And that's why builders who are aware of the current market and gameplay conditions clearly have an advantage.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.21 00:34:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Its a bit like telling Intel to sell thier stock of gold cause the price of gold has gone up. It may make them money in the short term, but it could seriously affect their ability to make money as a chip maker if they played the metals market wrong.
This is an insane line of reasoning. The reason it would hurt Intel is because they are a well known brand that has to maintain their image. They are competing against a single entity. Customer loyalty is a large factor in this market. If Intel stopped producing for a few months they could lose a lot of customers to AMD that they may not get back for a few cycles. Worse they could lose massive suppliers and dealers.
None of this really applies to EVE. You could continue buying from suppliers and selling the minerals if that is more profitable. There are no dealers in EVE, at least not like Dell/Gateway/Acer/HP/etc so that is out as well. No one has a brand name in EVE, everything is just on the market. The only possible reason to keep building is if you are supplying a corp with your particular item and have a long term contract with them, that is the ONLY reason to build for less than the components sell for individually.
Originally by: Banana Torres
To be able to make the decision on whether to build or not seems to require the ability to see the future. Sure I could use my mineral stocks to create sell orders that would be more profitable than building a ship. But the act of putting up those sell orders could affect the market in such a way as to make it more profitable to build the ship.
I promise you that if you were to sell every mineral you got it would not impact the mineral market in any noticeable way.
Originally by: Banana Torres
Also I have a lot of assets tied up in ship manufacturing. These would be idle as would the POS, which needs fuel even if it not being used. And most importantly the Logistics Director would be in a bad mood cause she likes building ships.
This only gives more reason not to build. If you are making less building PLUS you have assets tied up in that production then it's even more of a money sink. Owning a BPO is costing you money. How? You could sell the BPO and reinvest that money in other ways to earn at LEAST 5% a month if not closer to 10-50% depending how rich/poor you are. If nothing else you could be running copies of the BPO, making 1-4 mil/day for not building with it on top of making more by selling the minerals.
But hey, if you want to continue building a ship that sells for 750 million with components that sell for 800 million then go for it! But don't get mad when I call you foolish or lacking common sense.
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.12.21 01:40:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Shadarle If nothing else you could be running copies of the BPO, making 1-4 mil/day for not building with it on top of making more by selling the minerals.
1-4 million a day. Wow, you can earn that, gosh. Amazing.
I'm sorry mate, we are obviously operating in different leagues.
This is now very off topic, so I am gonna shup up now.
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Hersheff
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Posted - 2007.12.21 01:55:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Shadarle If nothing else you could be running copies of the BPO, making 1-4 mil/day for not building with it on top of making more by selling the minerals.
1-4 million a day. Wow, you can earn that, gosh. Amazing.
I'm sorry mate, we are obviously operating in different leagues.
This is now very off topic, so I am gonna shup up now.
you obviously didn't understand what he meant.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.21 04:36:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Hersheff
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Shadarle If nothing else you could be running copies of the BPO, making 1-4 mil/day for not building with it on top of making more by selling the minerals.
1-4 million a day. Wow, you can earn that, gosh. Amazing.
I'm sorry mate, we are obviously operating in different leagues.
This is now very off topic, so I am gonna shup up now.
you obviously didn't understand what he meant.
Indeed. He is losing money on every produced item + he is losing money every day on owning a BPO by not using the value of that BPO effectively. It's a double whammy to produce with a BPO that is losing you money.
And as to the operating in a different league, I agree, we most definitely are. Unfortunately for you I think you mistake which one of us is in the majors and which of us is in little league.
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Vele Nori
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.12.21 07:31:00 -
[78]
i like the low tech II battleship prices please don't try to make the producers any smarter or the prices are gonna go up
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JdJinator
Gallente PURE Legion Pure.
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Posted - 2007.12.21 12:15:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Hersheff
Originally by: Banana Torres
Originally by: Shadarle If nothing else you could be running copies of the BPO, making 1-4 mil/day for not building with it on top of making more by selling the minerals.
1-4 million a day. Wow, you can earn that, gosh. Amazing.
I'm sorry mate, we are obviously operating in different leagues.
This is now very off topic, so I am gonna shup up now.
you obviously didn't understand what he meant.
Indeed. He is losing money on every produced item + he is losing money every day on owning a BPO by not using the value of that BPO effectively. It's a double whammy to produce with a BPO that is losing you money.
And as to the operating in a different league, I agree, we most definitely are. Unfortunately for you I think you mistake which one of us is in the majors and which of us is in little league.
Your major, so when are you stopping bugging my business?? :P lol
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Lady Beauvoir
Slutty Witches
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Posted - 2007.12.21 16:47:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Lady Beauvoir on 21/12/2007 16:47:26 Shadarle, for a long while I thought you were mostly trolling. But this topic has convinced me that I was wrong. This thread has way too many manufacturers with very little common (or business) sense on how to make most profit from their stock.
I'll try to condence the thing Shadarle is saying into something extremely simple:
1) You have Things. From Things you build Stuff. If the price at which people are selling Things needed to build Stuff is greater than the price Stuff is sold at, you sell Things. Otherwise you produce and sell Stuff. It's insignificant how much you paid for them yourself: their value is what people sell them for.
2) You need Tools to build Stuff from Things. Tools cost ISK. You use ISK to generate more ISK. Therefore, the ISK invested in Tools must help you earn more ISK than selling the tools and using the ISK in some other venture. RL comparison: you can buy either stocks Y or Z. Y offers 3% return on investment, Z offers 5% return. Naturally you buy Z. Use the same reasoning to your Tools.
3) In the 3rd quarter of 2007 the total value of daily market transactions was 2.1 trillion ISK (according to Q3 economic newsletter). Your market activity will not have any noticeable effect on the market (unless you intentionally try to cause the market to fluctuate on one or two particular items). "Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaet point." -Blaise Pascal, PensTes, 4, 277 |
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.12.21 17:42:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Lady Beauvoir Shadarle, for a long while I thought you were mostly trolling. But this topic has convinced me that I was wrong.
Shockingly, I didn't get well known on this forum just by being mean to stupid people, though that may well be my latest claim to fame. But I accept that you were wrong, which in turn, makes me right. Something I hear quite a lot
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