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Myth Al'kar
Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.25 19:48:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Myth Al''kar on 25/12/2007 19:48:30
We are not bullies. We simply aim to make membership as pleasant as possible for our members. Unfortunately, this means that the 0.0 space we control must be policed as much as time permits. While we respect the non aligned players, we highly suggest that those not seeking a confrontation stay out of Allied 0.0 space.
*holovid camera turns off*
Now give me your damn lunch money.
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CmdDesaster
Marquie-X Corp Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.26 19:45:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dante Fugazi I'm pretty new to eve, but after talking to many people in game, and reading the forums a pretty clear picture of 0.0 alliances is starting to come together for me. Stop me if I'm wrong, and please enlighten my ignorance if that is the case. Am I the only one who see's 0.0 alliance as schoolyard bullies, and lying thieves?
Pardon me but could it be, that you confused the schoolyard with the harbour-quarter? |
Ozstar
Naughty 40 Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.27 11:47:00 -
[33]
EVE is as much about who you know as it is about what you know. If you have the right attitude and work hard, doors will open and opportunities will present themselves to you. If all you do is sit there, expecting these doors to be opened for you - you will acheive far less.
And yes, we're bullies.
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ShineDog
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Posted - 2007.12.28 00:52:00 -
[34]
A couple of things.
- The game includes deliberate mechanics to allow alliances to claim space. You dont need to put "own" in brackets to suggest that people are acting like they own something, but dont really.
They do own it. The system belongs to them. They set taxes, they decide who enters and what the policies within the territory are.
- Consider this. I am mining or ratting or salvaging or whatever in my alliances belt in 0.0 there are 10 other people in the system with me, all blue.
A neutral enters the system. He is not blue. What do i do at this point?
I run. I head back to the station or a bookmark that is out of the way. If this person doesnt have standings that identify him to me as a friend, i HAVE to, for the sake of my ship and pod, treat him as an enemy. He could be a pirate out to pod me. He could be from a corp that is hostile but that we dont have standings to. He could be a scout. He could be a clueless newbie, but fact is, he generally isnt.
Since almost everyone who doesnt have standings with our alliance who enters our space is hostile, why is it unreasonable to take them out? These people could cost us stations, if we dont watch ourselves.
Bear in mind, entry into 0.0 isnt hard. A lot of the alliances WILL take newbs straight out of the door. And you know what? There isnt a lot of stuff a noob can do in a lot of territory. Believe me ive done it. The rats will kill you and you wont have the skills to mine effectivley. While you can have a good effect in PvP (rookies can tackle) you are still going to die.
The whole ransom for pod thing, i find, is more common in lowsec as opposed to 0.0
In true 0.0 you wont get the ransom, generally, you will just get podded and explode. |
Trayk
Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.29 03:24:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jinn AsaniQui It's simple really... Either you have power and welth, or you dont. There is no middleground in EVE, (atleast thats my opinion).
Bogus. Time and effort can create both in this game. You just have to work for it, it WONT be handed to you on a silver platter.
I don't mind interviewing newer players, but you can't be so raw that you will be unable to earn a living on your own in 0.0. Its the attitude I look for, will you mesh with our corp and its members. Experience comes with time..stupid lasts forever.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
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Spaceman Gene
The Raging Armada Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.29 08:50:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Spaceman Gene on 29/12/2007 08:53:38
Originally by: Dante Fugazi
I'm supposed to build my own 2000 man alliance and go to war with all of the older alliances, to get any of this?
*snickers* umm we did...sorta but be ready to take a doomsday device to the face and be willing to not be deterred. /me shruggs... Not saying you have to do it the same way, just that it's been done rather recently.
But then, it's the journey that built the people relationships and provided the entertainment value to keep us coming back. This isn't WoW, this is the next evolutionary step from WoW in MMO gaming - Hard Core!
Good Luck, sorry for your frustrations with Eve, hope you keep at it.
Gene
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Kera Delacour
Evenstar Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.30 01:34:00 -
[37]
Wow such missinformation If you plan to move to 0.0 move to an NPC region first and base out of NPC stations. You don't need towers, you don't need a cap fleet, but you will have access to jump clones, nice mission systems, nice ratting, excellent mining. You'll just need to take precations and be careful.
Then when you've built up some take some space within the NPC region/area near the stations you're basing out of. Most big 0.0 alliances couldn't give a rip less about Stain/Venal, etc. Because they're so riddled with NPC stations that they're really impossible to hold/control so most just don't bother and just roam periodically and kill anyone they can catch. ----------- EVNS, bringing quality carebearing to a solar system near you! |
Earl Black
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Posted - 2008.01.01 21:39:00 -
[38]
Pretty much got it in one, once your out of 0.5 then your dead just a matter of how long it takes.
Killmail frenzy takes over, been to 0.0, loads of empty systems you could live, mine or rat no problem, just takes one crew to roam thru and your dead.
Unfriendly and far too rich, ship loss mean little when you can make millions in a belt in a few hours, 0.0 is realy about how much isk you got.
To most players losing a ship hurts so you only fly what you can afford, 0.0 you just get another one probably T2 if your corp/alliance makes them or has a deal, who do you think has T2 bpo's?
Just look around the forums, 15m min sp, must be self sufficient, must have blaa blaa
Stay in empire is your best bet, 0.0 they dont want anything but soldiers/targets try empire, try mission or build stuff.
Eve may not be for you it can be a hard game it you let it.
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Kronos Hopeslayer
Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.03 18:31:00 -
[39]
The OP's claim that new players can't gain access to 0.0 space is flat out bullcaca. There are plenty of corporations in 0.0 space who recruit and train new players. Maybe pull your head out of the sand and look for one instead of acting like a pariah on the forums?
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Skeltek
Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke
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Posted - 2008.01.04 03:36:00 -
[40]
Ressources in 0.0 can be harvested. If not protected, another alliance may come around and take those ressources away from you and endanger your industry by simply destroying it.
It has shown itself through the years that in order to ensure safety of the 0.0 industry, it got to be protected from competitors spies and the like also.
Many deem it simply to be stupid to let other alliances harvest the ressources of their space without giving anything in return like helping defend or stuff like that.
Neutrals are simply neutral, because they are neither willing to attack you nor help you defend that space. Wouldnt you feel stupid if you spend 75% of your Evetime with Logistics and POS Warfare, pay the rent and stuff and somebody else just comes around for spying, harvesting or gathering riches while he does nothing in return for it? The riches of 0.0 are very limited after all.
But talking about your example there... its become very rare for people to scramble your pod and demand ransom for it, just because Clones are cheap and you got no guarantee he will let you go. Just dont pay next time(give RPGers no chance ;) and buy yourself a new cheap clone. After all, the danger and risk is what makes this game spicy, would be boring otherwise.
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Fehz
Combat and Mining Utility Inc. Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2008.01.04 21:42:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Princess Jodi
Tried to negoatiate standings so you can get to empire safely?
I've been in a badger negotiating with a russian in a maelstrom using an online translator who I was supposed to be blue with... that'll get the ol' heart pumping.. I made it out alive on friendly terms with half structure.. :)
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Wayward Hooligan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.01.04 22:19:00 -
[42]
Joining a 0.0 alliance isn't hard. I got into Snigg's training corp with less than 5 million sp. I was in 0.0 doing ops as a tackler by the time I hit 5 million sp.
There are two easy ways to live in 0.0
1 - Move to NPC space and base out of an npc station. I did this as a 2 week old noob just to see what 0.0 was like. Learned a ton before heading back to empire to acquire more isk and skills.
If isk farmers can live and survive in 0.0 alone then so can you. If you can't its because you don't have the skills as a player to hack 0.0 life.
2 - Figure out what you could offer a 0.0 corp/alliance and start handing out resumes. Easiest route into 0.0 pvp alliance is as a ceptor/dictor pilot.
Train your racial ceptor and dictor skills upto a decent level start applying. Then the only barrier is isk but its not hard to make isk in 0.0. Run pirate agent missions or rat. Takes racial BS 4 and racial turret/missile 4.
Part of the problem empire noobs have with 0.0 is that they figure they should get all of the rewards without having to deal with the 0.0 learning curve.
If you live in 0.0, you're going to lose ships. If you pvp, you're going to lose a lot of ships early on. Thats normal so keep ratting/missioning inbetween ops and you'll survive, prosper and actually start being useful. . .. WELP! .. . |
wappy
Gallente NEXUS CLOUD Cursed Nemesis
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Posted - 2008.01.08 12:11:00 -
[43]
To be honest the OP has EvE figured all wrong. Yes 0.0 alliances can be bullies but i doubt any alliance acting as a bully will have a lot of renters. Alliances that actively rent their space do not shoot their renters cause its bad for business and EvE is all about business and isk flows.
I am a member of an alliance of about 100 members and we do live in 0.0 and we dont pay a dime to anyone. Yes there is a couple of really old players that have build up great assets over time that do serve as a backbone to hold our own but its better to talk to people before claiming its impossible. BRUCE just showed that it is possible for a small alliance to start in Empire and achieve the goald of claiming a region.
Like i said even C-NEM a small alliance can live in 0.0 by carefully choosing friends and enemies.
Skills do not matter but like a lot of people already said your attitude does. Do not expect to receive anything from old players or from anyone but if you work for what you want you will get it eventually. Yes it should even be possible to own your own Titan if you put the time and effort into it. Always remember that what you do need is friends. In 0.0 alone you are nothing with friends you can achieve everything.
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Malthraz
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Posted - 2008.01.10 11:58:00 -
[44]
You picked the wrong game bub.
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Gibson Rothman
HOMELESS. Band of Bums
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Posted - 2008.01.10 12:06:00 -
[45]
Spare Change? More Heads, More Silver
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Midas Man
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Posted - 2008.01.10 16:55:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Midas Man on 10/01/2008 16:57:21 A simple RL Analagy to explain 0.0 Mechanics.
1) Save lots of real Life Cash 2) Buy yourself A fighter Jet 3) Go and fly it over USA, Russia, China or anywhere else with a strong Military.
Now ask yourself how long that Fighter Jet would stay in the sky?
*edit fixed spelling mistake (Missed others LOL)
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Asp Rose
Minmatar Si chou zhi lu
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:50:00 -
[47]
What I really hate is how this guy is being so self-righteous despite being new and admitting that he doesn't really know about 0.0 alliances, yet basing his judgement on them based on what he "hears" about them. If you're going to make a stand, at least know what you're talking about so you don't make a fool of yourself.
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fathitman
Gallente Woopatang The Red Skull
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Posted - 2008.01.11 00:37:00 -
[48]
Come to 0.0, I love easy kills
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Cybarite
Gallente Aristotle Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.01.11 00:45:00 -
[49]
to the OP, I can see where you're coming from, but you don't have all the info. The fact is that in order to operate in 0.0 you need to be able to secure some space, this usually means a whole region, or occasionally a dead end constelation. This takes numbers and organization, without it you'll just get rolled by the first group who does have it and wants the space you currently have for themselves.
They're not always just taking it because they want it either, they may need it to provide for their own pilots having been kicked out of the space they previously occupied, or they may be a group thats outgrown Empire and NPC space and wants to start playing in the big leagues. Either way they're coming for you and they have a good enough reason.
This situation shapes the politics of 0.0, there is only so much space, and their are plenty of people who want to exploit as much of it as possible. In this political environment only the most well organized and vicous player groups will be able to hold their own, anyone who doesn't make the cut gets knocked out of the game. This leads to strong groups holding area's of space, of nessecity these groups are made up of or at least contain a large number of highly aggressive pilots who's main goal is to kill as much and as often as possible.
This leads to another reason why they attack on site: anyone you don't know could be a scout for the person who's coming to raid your space, or could even be scouting for an invasion fleet. Every 0.0 group knows this and in order to keep their income high they'll attempt to clear their borders of hostiles so their operations have less chance of being interupted, and will only accept entities within their space that are subservient to them.
The point is that the devs made 0.0 and then handed it to the players, the result is what we have done with it. and honestly it's not that hard to get into, just don't plan on joining some invite only super elite PVP group, go check out EvE university, or agony unleashed, they actively recruit new players in order to teach them the ropes and how to PvP. ... Why do I PvP? Because I love the feeling I get when I see the pretty lights and know that someone somewhere is screaming incoherently at their computer screen. |
Sarisel
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Posted - 2008.01.13 03:19:00 -
[50]
Yay Feudalism
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Revolution Rising
Venture Research and Resources New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.01.13 19:35:00 -
[51]
To be frank, I've tried several and most are just glorified pirate alliances tbh. Most will chase anyone coming into their space out of their space into the next alliances' space and further. They don't talk before attacking or anything... etc... Perhaps it's just a question of the individual members being somewhat powerless to give consent for someone to enter space for a period of time. (I wonder if there's a post for the devs in there to ask for 1 hour +ve standings for individuals and corps).
The only one I've found who isn't is CVA so far - and they are a little weird to deal with anyhow. (Altho I am far from checking out all of them).
I agree with the sentiment of the OP, but not necessarily the details.
VRR Homepage
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Lysander Memnos
The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.14 19:34:00 -
[52]
0.0 space is in many ways analogous to the American Wild West during the initial expansion from the eastern seaboard. Small groups were often lost or killed; large groups would make claims on land that could not necessarily be enforced (size/geography or otherwise) but would act harshly if unwelcome guests were found. If you didn't bring item X you would not have it, unless you made it on-site. Any visitor was viewed as a potential intruder, because it was easier to steal something than build it. Neighbors were sometimes viewed as competition. Success brought more attention, and higher chances of unwelcome attention.
The original poster clearly wants to go to 0.0 space but is put-off by the current tenants, who are concerned primarily with retention of their territory. Some of these tenants charge 'protection' or 'renters' fees, and obviously some of these tenants (and renters too!) don't always follow the rules. To that, I would say find another alliance to do business with and clearly state (in public) your reasons for doing so, with thorough documentation. Public opinion can be quite effective if wielded properly. To draw from the Wild West analogy again, new settlers were welcomed if they brought goods or means of support, brought means of defending the territory, or some other benefit to the existing landholder. The same applies to 0.0 space - it is unlikely that you or a small corporation will be able to muscle in to 0.0 by might, so convince the alliance that your inclusion has benefits.
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5irmolle
Evolution..
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Posted - 2008.01.14 20:58:00 -
[53]
We may be able to help you out for the sum of 6 billion isk per month you may come live in the rich region of Delve for this measly sum you can rely on the BOB protection not to come help you and can also expect to be evicted when it suits us to do so as in 0.0 I AM THE LAW.
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Nocturnal Avenger
The Ankou The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2008.01.14 22:07:00 -
[54]
Originally by: 5irmolle We may be able to help you out for the sum of 6 billion isk per month you may come live in the rich region of Delve for this measly sum you can rely on the BOB protection not to come help you and can also expect to be evicted when it suits us to do so as in 0.0 I AM THE LAW.
Sounds reasonable
- Carebear Pirate - |
SKINK0428
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Posted - 2008.02.01 13:25:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dante Fugazi Eve is FULL of ore, minerals, gas clouds, etc. that can ONLY be accessed in 0.0... So anyone who is new to the game, by default is screwed out of ALL of this. I'm supposed to build my own 2000 man alliance and go to war with all of the older alliances, to get any of this? Or am I supposed to wait til I have the "minimum skill points required" to join them? Or better yet, for the invite only ones, I'm supposed to pull off the social engineering feat of the century and get myself accepted? Or is it that I'm supposed to just forget the whole idea, and stay in empire forever?
Before anyone starts flaming me saying "noobs dont belong in 0.0" blah blah Everyone was once new, and even a player that has been in eve for a year or more, stands NO chance of fighting these guys without a HUGE alliance at their back. So that again raises my above questions.
I know the next flame after that one will be "Just pay for access" WHY??? To be podded by their bored pilots, or the pirates who infultrate that territory? It seems to me that it's a flaw in the game mechanics, and a mistake which the outcome was never fully thought out by CCP. New players already get the "S**t end of the stick" all the way around. I guess until CCP decides to even the playing field somehow, all us "noobs" are supposed to sit in empire.
And just for the fun of it, I'll answer flame #3 before it's even typed sure sure they're just defending "their" territory... I guess the rest of us are paying the same ammount to play, so that we can be screwed out of the better resources of the game.
Could you imagine the sheer volume of kleenex that would be consumed by these same alliances who are the "owners" of 0.0 if the jovian's one day claimed all of 0.0 as THEIRS, podded everyone in 0.0 and started charging access, and still podded people at random when they got bored? Maybe thats what's needed, a world class smackdown to put some of the more pompous and arrogant alliances in their places.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that larger alliances work as a larger unit to defend sections of space, I just don't think It's right that anyone should be able to "own" a system, if there are resources that can ONLY be found there. I also think most of these guys have forgotten what it's like to be a new player.
And just for the record, I can't remember the guy's name but I read a post stating something along the lines of "and if you are a new player you have no right to post in these forums." Oh gosh, I guess only the "leet uber" players that have been here forever have the "right" to post, and go to 0.0 and access all the benefits of 0.0, excuse me for helping to pay for your new expansion you arrogant P***k!
Well we are a small corp 26 members but we are just forming an alliance with other corps and number over 300 when its formed this week! We have been in 0.0 for some time as this small corp that is only 3 months old, I myself am only a 2 month old player. We rent our space and moon for our current POS at a very reasonable rate that we can mine in dark glitter in 3 hrs for the month! We dnt have any trouble from the alliance we rent from, just the opposite there always willing to help when something happens in there space. I have good 1mill + rats to kill and faction spawns occasionally, good ore and ice to mine and to top it all off its 1000 X safer than low sec! We are going to push for our own system soon as an alliance as we will soon be strong enough to defend it! If we can do it so can you, so stop whinning and get on with the game.
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Caliwyrm O'Libr
Red Eye .Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.01 16:49:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Sicil Fioet
You're painting a pretty grim picture of the game when I don't think you quite know what you're talking about. If your issues is that you can't be your own master in 0.0, either have to pay someone or join someone else, well that's because 0.0 space is something that requires teamwork, playing with other people. If you want to be your own boss you are indeed supposed to raise your own corporation and either fight for the space or apply to join an existing 0.0 alliance, basically you have to earn it. Nevertheless it is extremely easy. I've seen really crappy corporations with crappy leadership and noob players get into 0.0 and survive there for many months. And if they can do it, why can't you?
This pretty much sums it up.
0.0 is all about TEAMWORK. I don't know of anyone who has ever built an outpost or titan completely by themselves. I've never seen anyone (successfully) fend off attacks on their space by themselves.
You can either make your own team (and work to keep it together and focused) or you can join someone else's team. Either way, *most* 0.0 entities employ a "NBSI" policy (Not Blue, Shoot It) which effectively translates into "If you're not on my team you're an enemy and we'll kill you".
That doesn't make them bullies. They're simply defending their space. Those that don't defend their space soon lose it.
(FYI, if you're in a starter corp you're especially targeted for killing since alot of enemy spies/scouts are in starter corps) =======
Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand.. |
Seeing EyeDog
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Posted - 2008.02.01 18:48:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Myth Al'kar We are not bullies.
lol a hydra member posting about "we're not bullies"...i dont think that position needs to be defended, rly. Biggest carebear alliance holding 0.0 space is yours. _____________________
Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
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Revolution Rising
Venture Research and Resources New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.02.03 21:20:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Revolution Rising on 03/02/2008 21:20:22
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
This pretty much sums it up.
0.0 is all about TEAMWORK. I don't know of anyone who has ever built an outpost or titan completely by themselves. I've never seen anyone (successfully) fend off attacks on their space by themselves.
You can either make your own team (and work to keep it together and focused) or you can join someone else's team. Either way, *most* 0.0 entities employ a "NBSI" policy (Not Blue, Shoot It) which effectively translates into "If you're not on my team you're an enemy and we'll kill you".
That doesn't make them bullies. They're simply defending their space. Those that don't defend their space soon lose it.
(FYI, if you're in a starter corp you're especially targeted for killing since alot of enemy spies/scouts are in starter corps)
I completely disagree, I have lived around and in providence for about a year and have fought many different battles against lots of insurgents at various times. People I have fought with include CVA, IAC, NOS, Paxton etc.. etc..
I decided a while ago to get my alt-owned corp up and running and we have 4-5 people in it that have hulks and I'm finishing off my Rorqual training in order to move to 0.0.
The part of 0.0 isn't owned by anyone but is near IAC and CVA space. I know I can jump the ship through Providence no problems, because they run NRDS. IAC however don't.
so having fought on their side in the past, I figure upon seeing that they just reset standings in another forum that I might ask about +ve standings so we can just jump the ship through their space.
the answer: no. under no circumstances.
Which basically makes them glorified pirates imo. There's no real need to put my small 5 man corp at risk while we trade around the regions around them. We weren't after any type of access to their stations or anything else. Merely that we dont get ganked while travelling through the space that in the past as a "friendly neutral" we've helped hold.
Either the problem is functional with regard to the system and the standings lists aren't big enough etc etc (yep heard it before).
Or it's just that people prefer to be bullies, they prefer an air of obliterating small guys because they aren't worth dealing with and because "we can", but they'll make safe their space for their "allies" who are like-minded bullies that generally they are scared of or don't really wish to provoke in this same manner.
Of course they're bullies, there's no other way to describe it. VRR Homepage
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Ivan Kinsikor
Amarr International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.04 11:20:00 -
[59]
Someone seems to have null space confused with low sec. Killing is business and business is good. |
SKINK0429
Ganymede Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.02.06 13:35:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Revolution Rising Edited by: Revolution Rising on 03/02/2008 21:20:22
Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr
This pretty much sums it up.
0.0 is all about TEAMWORK. I don't know of anyone who has ever built an outpost or titan completely by themselves. I've never seen anyone (successfully) fend off attacks on their space by themselves.
You can either make your own team (and work to keep it together and focused) or you can join someone else's team. Either way, *most* 0.0 entities employ a "NBSI" policy (Not Blue, Shoot It) which effectively translates into "If you're not on my team you're an enemy and we'll kill you".
That doesn't make them bullies. They're simply defending their space. Those that don't defend their space soon lose it.
(FYI, if you're in a starter corp you're especially targeted for killing since alot of enemy spies/scouts are in starter corps)
I completely disagree, I have lived around and in providence for about a year and have fought many different battles against lots of insurgents at various times. People I have fought with include CVA, IAC, NOS, Paxton etc.. etc..
I decided a while ago to get my alt-owned corp up and running and we have 4-5 people in it that have hulks and I'm finishing off my Rorqual training in order to move to 0.0.
The part of 0.0 isn't owned by anyone but is near IAC and CVA space. I know I can jump the ship through Providence no problems, because they run NRDS. IAC however don't.
so having fought on their side in the past, I figure upon seeing that they just reset standings in another forum that I might ask about +ve standings so we can just jump the ship through their space.
the answer: no. under no circumstances.
Which basically makes them glorified pirates imo. There's no real need to put my small 5 man corp at risk while we trade around the regions around them. We weren't after any type of access to their stations or anything else. Merely that we dont get ganked while travelling through the space that in the past as a "friendly neutral" we've helped hold.
Either the problem is functional with regard to the system and the standings lists aren't big enough etc etc (yep heard it before).
Or it's just that people prefer to be bullies, they prefer an air of obliterating small guys because they aren't worth dealing with and because "we can", but they'll make safe their space for their "allies" who are like-minded bullies that generally they are scared of or don't really wish to provoke in this same manner.
Of course they're bullies, there's no other way to describe it.
As far as I am aware CVA is in overall control of Providance I live there and 99% of the systems say soverignty:- CVA so I dnt know were you get the idea no one controls it from?
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