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Radiant Infinity
Higgs Boson Celestial Navigation
0
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Posted - 2012.02.05 15:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi all,
I've been using CN launchers on my pve CNR for the longest time now and am quite happy with them. However, I've finally decided to train T2 cruises and now I have some questions on their use as it pertains to L4 missions:
1.) Ammo? Fury for BS, BC and cruisers? Precisions for frigs? Or cruisers and smaller? Don't bother with Precision and use vanilla T1 instead for smaller targets? Do faction missiles still have a use?
2.) Fit? I was thinking 2 painters in mids and 4 BCSs in lows (hardeners according to mission). Yay or nay? What about rigs? Rigor, flare or damage rigs? Or shield/cap rigs?
Thanks for your time! o7
Edit: Guided Missile Precision is at V. |
Tr1cky The
Military Assault Command Ops The Serpents Eye Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.02.05 16:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well , i got a CNR also and i do use t2 cruises .
The way i see it , and use ( ofc i could be wrong so i am opened to be corrected ) t2 furry's are for long range , doesn't matter bs bc frig with the ammount of dmg even a frig dies if he's mwd to u , and precision are for close range combat including if the target is a bs , u willl do more dmg to it in close range then with fury .
So far it works very well for me and i use a fit something like , 4 t2 bcu 1 sensor booster 2 shield amps 3 hardners a pithi c-type large shield booster 2 rigor's and 1 ccc .
Due to some skil lacking i don't always manage to tank without warpin away but its rare that i do so , if u do it like me and it doesn't work for u , u can always check battle clinic for some top rated fits . |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
123
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Posted - 2012.02.05 17:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
DISCLAIMER: These are only my experiences with them, they may work differently for you (i.e. you fight different rat types more often, or whatever else) Anyway:
I've found furies work pretty well vs battleships, but against battlecruisers have at best no benefit. Just use standard T1 for anything smaller than a BS.
Precision: Worthless. The DPS loss from them is too big to make up for the better explosion velocity/radius, don't bother using these.
Faction missiles: Obviously better than T1, but not cost effective, especially on a CNR which eats through cruise missiles at an absurd rate.
fit: Yep, 3 rigor rigs, and target painters are always helpful.
Quote:The way i see it , and use ( ofc i could be wrong so i am opened to be corrected ) t2 furry's are for long range , doesn't matter bs bc frig with the ammount of dmg even a frig dies if he's mwd to u , and precision are for close range combat including if the target is a bs , u willl do more dmg to it in close range then with fury .
Yeah this guy is full of ****. Range isn't a factor in what missiles you use, and precisions are always worthless. Shooting frigs etc. is what drones are for.
Oh and as an added tip - I've taken to mounting 3 sentry drones on my CNR (with a flight of lights in reserve) and use them for supplemental DPS, and to near-instapop approaching frigates. |
Jason McCoy
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
24
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Posted - 2012.02.05 17:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tr1cky The wrote:Well , i got a CNR also and i do use t2 cruises .
The way i see it , and use ( ofc i could be wrong so i am opened to be corrected ) t2 furry's are for long range , doesn't matter bs bc frig with the ammount of dmg even a frig dies if he's mwd to u , and precision are for close range combat including if the target is a bs , u willl do more dmg to it in close range then with fury . Let me correct you real quick. You are somewhat right, but there is a minor detail you are missing.
That is explosion radius.
The explosion radius on precisions are smaller Expl Radius of 270m which means it will hit smaller targets much better. Their flight time is shorter meaning they wont reach out as far, so yes for short range.
Compared to high damage missiles with an Expl Radius of 550m
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Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
31
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Posted - 2012.02.05 17:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Duchess has it right
- Fury cruises for BS and BC - Standard cruises for cruisers - Drones for frigates |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
123
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Posted - 2012.02.05 17:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Quote:Let me correct you real quick. You are somewhat right, but there is a minor detail you are missing.
That is explosion radius.
The explosion radius on precisions are smaller Expl Radius of 270m which means it will hit smaller targets much better. Their flight time is shorter meaning they wont reach out as far, so yes for short range. However, to offset this, precision cruise missiles have significantly lower base damage - the end result being nowhere near worth using compared to vanilla T1 missiles.
Standard cruise missiles do just fine vs cruisers if you have a good setup and skills, and drones chew up anything smaller. Hell, you probably use more ISK in missiles than the target frigate is even worth. |
stoicfaux
723
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Posted - 2012.02.05 19:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Precision aren't worth it, unless they can save a volley and if they save enough volleys to make up for the 20 seconds of reloading to/from precision. However, volley damage in general makes that situation pretty rare. (Where rare = haven't seen it yet for precision cruise missiles.)
missile damage spreadsheet: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1151130
However, if you don't use any rigor/flare rigs or a TP, then you'll probably want to use precision on the smaller, faster cruisers once they slow to their orbit speeds.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Rexxorr
Zero Corp Tax
0
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Posted - 2012.02.05 20:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
I would recommend staying with CN launchers and T1/faction ammo. Faction launchers have a faster ROF along with holding more missiles( less down time reloading), In my case the T1/faction ammo hits small ships just fine, I dont need drones but they speed up the mission while working on the large ships.
What I value is number of volleys to kill a ship, in this respect I find CN launchers help me to finish missions faster despite the higher eft dps numbers of Fury cruise ammo. It takes Fury ammo roughly the same amount of volleys or one volley less in some cases to kill BS/BC as does T1/faction ammo. Cruiser sized ships and below Fury cruise suffers badly.
You can make T2 fury cruise ammo work but you would be better off not using them. You could load up on target painters but a paper thin tank will result on that CNR along with having to juggle three target painters, or just reload regular/faction ammo several times a mission for killing the small stuff. Or just use fury cruise all the time, you will kill just fine, but it will be a bit slower.
For missions the only place where cruise t2 Fury ammo works is with the Golem. If you are flying a Golem, your going to use torps for the massive dps that can actually be applied to the target. IMO T2 fury ammo with its absolutely horribad explosion radius makes it mostly useless for mission running. |
Alara IonStorm
1535
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Posted - 2012.02.05 20:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:furies work pretty well vs battleships,
Precision: Worthless.
fit: Yep, 3 rigor rigs, and target painters are always helpful.
I use a Raven for PvE but I never put Rigors on it, I went from cheap resist rigs then changed to CCC's as a newbie. I only switched back to my Raven a month ago after training T2 Cruise Launchers so I haven't upgraded to Rigors yet. It works Ok with CCC's the regen is good enough that I don't often need to pulse my Cap Booster.
But I found that without Rigors the opposite of what you said is true. Precision do more about 35% Dmg then T1 Cruiser Missiles to Cruiser sized targets and are about on Par for Battlecruisers. Furies without Rigors do no extra Dmg to Battleships so it is better to use T1 Cruises.
I am planning to throw Rigors on it in the future though so I will probably stock up on more Furies.
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Humidor Cigarillo
9
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Posted - 2012.02.05 20:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cruise missiles are awful, awful weapons. Stick to heavy missiles. |
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Kietay Ayari
En Garde
325
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Posted - 2012.02.06 05:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Humidor Cigarillo wrote:Cruise missiles are awful, awful weapons. Stick to heavy missiles.
Yup. A Tengu can actually out-damage a Raven's missile DPS, and even with drones factored in its only short about 50 DPS. Since heavies apply the damage a lot better you can safely say it easily outdamages a Raven. Downside is that case is only with kinetic missiles.
Ferox #1 |
Radiant Infinity
Higgs Boson Celestial Navigation
0
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Posted - 2012.02.06 08:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thanks for the answers everyone. I guess Precisions are well out then.
The fit I'm considering has two TPs and a ROF rig - I'll see how that goes in about a week's time.
Thanks again. |
Alara IonStorm
1538
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Posted - 2012.02.06 08:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Radiant Infinity wrote: ROF rig Don't put on an Rate of Fire Rig with 3-4 BCU's in the Low Slots it will be Stacking Penalized to worthlessness. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2780
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Posted - 2012.02.06 11:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kietay Ayari wrote:Humidor Cigarillo wrote:Cruise missiles are awful, awful weapons. Stick to heavy missiles. Yup. A Tengu can actually out-damage a Raven's missile DPS, and even with drones factored in its only short about 50 DPS. Since heavies apply the damage a lot better you can safely say it easily outdamages a Raven. Downside is that case is only with kinetic missiles.
A CNR with T2 cruise launchers easily outdamages a Tengu when shooting BCs/BS. It pulls away even further when it's shooting rats that aren't kinetic-weak. Good luck outpacing a CNR with a Tengu when clearing Sansha Blockade or Pirate Invasion.
The Tengu gains because it physically moves faster, which is important for missions like Worlds Collide and Unauthorized Military Presence, and also in missions with lots of small/med rats like Massive Attack. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
287
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Posted - 2012.02.06 11:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote: Don't put on an Rate of Fire Rig with 3-4 BCU's in the Low Slots it will be Stacking Penalized to worthlessness.
T2 RoF rig provides a bigger bonus than the BCUs, so it goes to the top and isn't stacking penalized. It's also about 40 additional DPS, which may or may not be worth it to your PVEing. |
Alara IonStorm
1538
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Posted - 2012.02.06 11:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote: Don't put on an Rate of Fire Rig with 3-4 BCU's in the Low Slots it will be Stacking Penalized to worthlessness.
T2 RoF rig provides a bigger bonus than the BCUs, so it goes to the top and isn't stacking penalized. It's also about 40 additional DPS, which may or may not be worth it to your PVEing. Is that extra paper DPS worth it compared to 3 Rigors that don't penalize each other boosting your accuracy?
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Radiant Infinity
Higgs Boson Celestial Navigation
0
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Posted - 2012.02.06 19:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote: Don't put on an Rate of Fire Rig with 3-4 BCU's in the Low Slots it will be Stacking Penalized to worthlessness.
T2 RoF rig provides a bigger bonus than the BCUs, so it goes to the top and isn't stacking penalized. It's also about 40 additional DPS, which may or may not be worth it to your PVEing. Is that extra paper DPS worth it compared to 3 Rigors that don't penalize each other boosting your accuracy? Wouldn't 2 Painters and 3 Rigors be overkill? I don't want to shoot frigs with Furies, I'll be using drones on them. My thinking (or hoping) is that 4 BCSs put out enough volley damage to one-shot BCs, while the RoF rig in combination with the 2 Painters will increase dps applied to cruisers enough to kill them with from 1 to 3 shots.
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stoicfaux
727
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Posted - 2012.02.06 20:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Radiant Infinity wrote: Wouldn't 2 Painters and 3 Rigors be overkill? I don't want to shoot frigs with Furies, I'll be using drones on them. My thinking (or hoping) is that 4 BCSs put out enough volley damage to one-shot BCs, while the RoF rig in combination with the 2 Painters will increase dps applied to cruisers enough to kill them with from 1 to 3 shots.
Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh. Volley damage doesn't mean a lot if most of your damage isn't hitting the target. There are two main factors that determine how much damage missiles do, target sig size and target speed. Basically, if the missile explosion is bigger than the ship or if the ship can out-run the explosion, the missile does less than 100% damage. The formulas are: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280
So... A cruiser has around a ~200m sig size. A Fury missile with all skills at V has an explosion radius of 412.5. 200/412.5 = 48.5% of your damage hits the target. If you slap on three Rigor Is, the Fury explosion radius drops to 253m. 200/253 = 79% of your damage hits the target. Add in a 30% TP to increase the target's siz size and that becomes (200 * 1.3) / 253 or 260/253 = 103%, which is capped at 100% missile damage.
The target's speed will also reduce the damage that missiles do. It's a bit more complicated to compute, so I'm not going to give an example. However, the target's sig size does affect this calculation, so Rigors and TPs will make a difference on fast ships.
In your case, if you're going to use two TPs, then go with 2xRigor and 1xFlare rigs.
Finally, Fury does more raw damage than T1 or CN ammo. Switching between Fury and T1 ammo takes time which lowers your DPS, so anything you can do to make Fury work on cruisers is a good idea. Generally speaking, use Fury on BS, BC, and non-elite cruisers in missions *if* you fit rigor/flare/TPs.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Jack Corigan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.02.06 23:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
Precision are not useless, they are just a lot more of a niche. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
756
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Posted - 2012.02.06 23:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
I used: - Fury vs BC, BS, and Destroyers (maybe some cruisers? Mordus and Guris I think?) - Faction against Cruisers, Frigs, and angels - Drones against frigs, then cruisers - Tengus for really short missions or when I was wanting to be really lazy.
Try not to switch ammo too often or you're gonna hurt your mission times. Also, you can use a cruise Golem to further improve your Fury missiles, and don't forget about boosters. A crystal set + corp tengu+loki+proteus booster can let you get by with scandalously little tank.
Take my advice with a grain of salt - its been ages since I ran a mission with any ship, and I don't even look at the fittings anymore. Its purely from-memory advice.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
5
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Posted - 2012.02.06 23:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
I personally wouldn't bother with T2/faction ammo in PVE with the exception of faction lasers and T2 torpedoes. |
SexTrader
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2012.02.07 01:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
I also use strictly T1. Can't be bothered switching out ammo for BS,Cruiser etc. For me, the time difference between T1 and T2 is minimal. |
Radiant Infinity
Higgs Boson Celestial Navigation
0
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Posted - 2012.02.07 09:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Radiant Infinity wrote: Wouldn't 2 Painters and 3 Rigors be overkill? I don't want to shoot frigs with Furies, I'll be using drones on them. My thinking (or hoping) is that 4 BCSs put out enough volley damage to one-shot BCs, while the RoF rig in combination with the 2 Painters will increase dps applied to cruisers enough to kill them with from 1 to 3 shots.
Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh. Volley damage doesn't mean a lot if most of your damage isn't hitting the target. There are two main factors that determine how much damage missiles do, target sig size and target speed. Basically, if the missile explosion is bigger than the ship or if the ship can out-run the explosion, the missile does less than 100% damage. The formulas are: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280So... A cruiser has around a ~200m sig size. A Fury missile with all skills at V has an explosion radius of 412.5. 200/412.5 = 48.5% of your damage hits the target. If you slap on three Rigor Is, the Fury explosion radius drops to 253m. 200/253 = 79% of your damage hits the target. Add in a 30% TP to increase the target's siz size and that becomes (200 * 1.3) / 253 or 260/253 = 103%, which is capped at 100% missile damage. The target's speed will also reduce the damage that missiles do. It's a bit more complicated to compute, so I'm not going to give an example. However, the target's sig size does affect this calculation, so Rigors and TPs will make a difference on fast ships. In your case, if you're going to use two TPs, then go with 2xRigor and 1xFlare rigs. Finally, Fury does more raw damage than T1 or CN ammo. Switching between Fury and T1 ammo takes time which lowers your DPS, so anything you can do to make Fury work on cruisers is a good idea. Generally speaking, use Fury on BS, BC, and non-elite cruisers in missions *if* you fit rigor/flare/TPs. Awesome, thanks! |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
126
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Posted - 2012.02.07 13:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jack Corigan wrote:Precision are not useless, they are just a lot more of a niche. So nich+¬ that there are virtually no realistic situations where using them is a good idea. Oh wait, I basically just defined "useless" there didn't I? |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
289
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Posted - 2012.02.09 01:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Is that extra paper DPS worth it compared to 3 Rigors that don't penalize each other boosting your accuracy?
I don't think it is. I was just pointing out that there is certainly a good reason for 4 BCU/T2 RoF rig setups. |
Nuela
Beacon Light Corporation Beacon Light Alliance
5
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Posted - 2012.02.09 21:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
Another +1 to using CN Launchers and plain old T1 missles. |
Hormus
Veria Ltd.
4
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Posted - 2012.03.10 16:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
I would like some advice on the fury/precision differences. I fitted a CNR with 7 T2 cruise launchers and T2 ammo for L4 missions (without rigors, but "3% decrease in factor of target's velocity for all missiles" implant. I was greatly surprised when I found out that precision missiles consistently do significantly more damage to NPC battleships than the fury ones! The damage reported is about 1680 per volley (or 240 for 1) for the precision missiles and about 1400 (200) for the fury missiles. I have double- and triple- checked everything I could think of, but nothing seems out of order...
EFT reports that fury does more damage for this fit, as could be expected. But in fact the opposite happens! And against BS, not cruisers or frigates which could be explained.
Has this happened to anyone else? Can anyone give a clue to what is happening? I have most missile skills at lvl4, if that is of any significance. |
Alara IonStorm
1765
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Posted - 2012.03.10 16:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Hormus wrote:I would like some advice on the fury/precision differences. I fitted a CNR with 7 T2 cruise launchers and T2 ammo for L4 missions (without rigors, but "3% decrease in factor of target's velocity for all missiles" implant. I was greatly surprised when I found out that precision missiles consistently do significantly more damage to NPC battleships than the fury ones! The damage reported is about 1680 per volley (or 240 for 1) for the precision missiles and about 1400 (200) for the fury missiles. I have double- and triple- checked everything I could think of, but nothing seems out of order...
EFT reports that fury does more damage for this fit, as could be expected. But in fact the opposite happens! And against BS, not cruisers or frigates which could be explained.
Has this happened to anyone else? Can anyone give a clue to what is happening? I have most missile skills at lvl4, if that is of any significance. I use a SNI with Painter and Lvl 4 in both Accuracy Skills w/o Implants and actually did some checking at my Damage Reports Vs the individual NPC Battlships Shield Resists and found that my Furies do the maximum Damage Possible per hit almost every time when in range of my Meta 3 Painter and near full otherwise. What is more against Hull they give me the full Damage shown in EFT.
Since I get full volley which is higher then the volley from precision their is no way that they can do more Damage.
I use 3 Rigor Rigs to get this effect. With said Rigs you should get the same. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
356
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Posted - 2012.03.10 16:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
Hormus wrote:I would like some advice on the fury/precision differences. I fitted a CNR with 7 T2 cruise launchers and T2 ammo for L4 missions (without rigors, but "3% decrease in factor of target's velocity for all missiles" implant. I was greatly surprised when I found out that precision missiles consistently do significantly more damage to NPC battleships than the fury ones! The damage reported is about 1680 per volley (or 240 for 1) for the precision missiles and about 1400 (200) for the fury missiles. I have double- and triple- checked everything I could think of, but nothing seems out of order...
EFT reports that fury does more damage for this fit, as could be expected. But in fact the opposite happens! And against BS, not cruisers or frigates which could be explained.
Has this happened to anyone else? Can anyone give a clue to what is happening? I have most missile skills at lvl4, if that is of any significance.
Yeah, that one is easy. Your damage is being reduced by explosion radius compared to signature radius of your targets. Your implant won't help there either. Basically, you'll need rigors and/or painters to make Fury work period (except against select huge-sig Guristas BSs). |
Hormus
Veria Ltd.
4
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Posted - 2012.03.10 16:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
You're saying that I need rigors to do full damage with furys against a BS? Their explosion radius right now is 467m. How much should it be for a full hit against BS? |
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