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Midnighter
The Causality Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.12.20 09:58:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Ashar KorAzor Edited by: Ashar KorAzor on 20/12/2007 01:46:43 Your observations were based off of capsuleers and capsuleer-bondspeople and you don't understand why I feel it isn't realistic to extend this view to the entire Empire?
Incorrect. I used the word pilots specifically, as I do interact with a sizable number of non capsuleer spacefarers. Hence it's based on capsuleers, their bondspeople and non capsuleer spacefarers. ***
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GulletSplitter
Minmatar Colonial Fleet Services Independent Faction
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Posted - 2007.12.20 15:39:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Amarrian citizens don't have, or want, the rights that the Gallente falsely assume to be universal. Our people do not need false freedoms granted at the expense of their souls. Slaves are not free, so your criteria are utterly misguided, freedom is not a fundamental right of anyone, but rather a curse.
Slaves are serving a just sentence to the faith. Their ancestors committed capital crimes, and they have been given the great gift of continued life. By our mercy, these multiple generations of slaves have come into an existence where, despite the sins of their fathers, their descendants might reach salvation and take a place in Amarrian society as members of the Faithful. This is an incredible gift.
So the Amarr religion holds the sins of the forefathers against newborns? What could a just born child have had to do with any perceived sins of his/her great-grandparents? They can't reach "salvation" until the pay off the sins of their forbearers? What sins has a 5 hour old child done that are so heinous that it must ôpay back sinsö for itÆs entire lifetime?
As to freedom being a curse...being able to talk with someone of your own choice about something as simple as the weather is/should be a fundamental right. Not being forced into a job by some foreigner who may or may not be a faithful servant of a religion is/should be a fundamental right. These are simple things and do not morally corrupt and individual.
Thank you Ashar for your forthright answers. While I have many issues a few stand out. First is that how can a ôunifiedö religion with a single head of the entire religion (the Emperor) not have a unified/codified set of legal documents regarding the treatment of slaves. Leaving this ôfreedomö up to individuals or smaller regions makes it appear positively tribal in nature. This also leads into my second issue of when or how does one get accepted into ôsalvationö? Who makes the determination that one has transcended? Leaving that ôchoiceö up to the individual slave owner does appear to turn the situation into a sticky morass where the slave owner has financial or other reasons for their slave not to achieve "salvation".
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Spoon Thumb
Paladin Imperium
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Posted - 2007.12.20 16:27:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 20/12/2007 16:27:46
I'll say it again as i've said before; Poorly treated slaves are less profitable.
You imply those 7 or so points you make are somehow correct or valid measures of good or otherwise treatment. But what constitutes "good" or "poor" treatment has nothing to do with your points. So far as I can see, you've been coloured by your upbringing and most likely events afterward and perhaps your environment and assocaitions.
As has been pointed out, "freedom" is a somewhat foriegn concept to the Amarr. I don't think a well trated slave will be unhappy or have a miserable life, suffer necessarily, if they don't have those things you mention such as freedom
Khaldari khanidpublic : RP channel for supporters of the Kingdom
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GulletSplitter
Minmatar Colonial Fleet Services Independent Faction
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Posted - 2007.12.20 19:03:00 -
[34]
Yes Spoon....poorly treated anything are not going to be as effective. Yet I'm not talking about that so much as what guarantees or rights to a specific treatment are afforded individual slaves. Leaving it up to independent owners and not at least a state run organization or state sponsored religious entity is out and out barbaric. It's a well know fact that there are those amongst the Amarr that have "fallen" from the grace of the Amarr god. Yet I see no action being taken by the Amarr authorities to address this. An Amarr could simply declare himself/herself a "devout" person but only pay lip service to the religion. They would then be free to act however they saw fit in regards to slaves or "religious initiates".
I have tended (maybe wrongly) to think of the Amarr religion as being a single entity. More and more I am beginning to think of it as a collection of different "takes" on a single religious theme. But to do so makes me place less importance on the Emperor who would then become nothing but a political entity and not a religiously significant individual. |
Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:17:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 20/12/2007 22:23:19 Captain GulletSplitter,
as in every developed religion, the Amarrian religion allows for several interpretations, as long as they don't cross the line toward hereticism. And the Amarrian Empire is not only characterised by a "unified religion". The Emire certainly is unified by faith, but before that it is a monarchy which divides in the five heirdoms and they again devide into smaller parts and so forth. The treatment of slaves is not regulated by a unified/codified set of legal documents or something like that, because there are good reasons for not doing so. The different realitys of life in the different parts of the Empire for example necessitate different treatment of regualr citizens of the Empire as well as slaves.
And if you reread my last post, you will be able to see that our lasts Emperor saw that there are also good reasons to give some binding guidelines for the treatment of slaves. Therfore his endeavours towards imperial standards in slave treatment.
Aside this I think everyone who thinks that concepts like freedom or free will are easily understood makes a grave mistake. And while I wouldn't go as far to say that freedom is a curse (which would be also a simplification), I would say that for someone not understanding what freedom is and means, freedom is a curse. And not only for him but for the entire society he lives in.
P.S.: As to actions being taken by the Amarr authorities to address 'fallen' Amarr, I don't know if you realize that there were and are at least some cases where particular Amarr are sentenced to slavery. Just because one doesn't see something happening, one isn't well grounded to assume that there is nothing happening.
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GulletSplitter
Minmatar Colonial Fleet Services Independent Faction
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:35:00 -
[36]
Sorry Nicoletta I should have been more clear to whom I was responding. Yes, the last Emperor made some steps towards giving a basic set of rights/standards for the treatment of slaves. I wish it had gone farther and been more encompassing. I have a hard time understanding how a religion as old as yours has not dealt with these issues to date but then I obviously am not aware of the history or politics of the Empire.
Some of my responses to this particular IGS topic are in reality thinly veiled attemtpts to convince the Amarr capsuleers to continue to push these "rights" forward. Or to at least come up with a commonly accepted standard within the Amarr pod community. It seems a large rock in the road to a civilized discourse on slavery/freedom is blocked by the basic issues of slave/worker rights. The lack of a codified set of "rights" in the Empire leaves a certain bitterness in the Republic that is sometimes hard to overcome. My pipe dream is for an organization of pod pilots representing all the various races would get together to come up with a common set of "rights" to be shared throughout all the various legal pod organizations. |
GulletSplitter
Minmatar Colonial Fleet Services Independent Faction
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Posted - 2007.12.20 22:37:00 -
[37]
And please note I said rights...and not "freedoms". I'm not confusing the right to avoid starvation from the "freedom" of being able to ingest crash until you die. |
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