Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Zkillz chan
|
Posted - 2007.12.19 04:46:00 -
[1]
What are teh chances of having a multithreaded or (stretch) x64 client. Considering the prevelance of multi-cored processors and the cpu intensity of eve i think it would be advantageous. then again i know nothing about the intracacies of implementing such things, but it would be really nice
|
Coconut Joe
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Te-Ka
|
Posted - 2007.12.19 10:11:00 -
[2]
I thought trinity was already multi threaded? - Eve IGB Store Template - The complete eve retail solution. |
Mr Popov
Shadow Company FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.12.19 21:43:00 -
[3]
What about for multicore systems such as Intel Core Duo/Quad or AMD Athlon X2/Phenom 9xxx processors?
I have read everywhere and anywhere and I get people who say that yes it is and no it isn't capable of utilizing the extra cores.
|
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.12.20 09:27:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Mr Popov What about for multicore systems such as Intel Core Duo/Quad or AMD Athlon X2/Phenom 9xxx processors?
I have read everywhere and anywhere and I get people who say that yes it is and no it isn't capable of utilizing the extra cores.
There is a very simple way to test this, assuming you have a multicore system. Just close any other applications, run Eve, and look in task manager at the 2/4 CPU usage graphs. If one graph shows massively more activity than the others, then Eve is not making good use of multiple cores. If the load is shared relatively evenly over 2 or more, then it most probably is making good use of multiple cores.
My usual situation is running 2 clients on a quad-core system under vista. In that situation, while there is a slight bias in load towards two of the cores, the gap is not excessive and the other two cores make a significant contribution. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Zathi Shaitan
|
Posted - 2007.12.31 18:51:00 -
[5]
Well, i got a Dual Opteron, and Eve only uses 1 CPU. Notice that this is a REAL Dual setup, not the new fashion dual cores, where everything is virtual.
So, on diehard TRUE Dual CPU Pcs, it's bad.
|
Vexy NiLakum
Amarr Dark Nebula Gallente Division Dark Nebula Galactic Empire
|
Posted - 2008.01.03 02:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Zkillz chan What are teh chances of having a multithreaded or (stretch) x64 client. Considering the prevelance of multi-cored processors and the cpu intensity of eve i think it would be advantageous. then again i know nothing about the intracacies of implementing such things, but it would be really nice
No, EVE client is a single thread application (although there are multiple threads in EVE process space, there is only one main thread that does all the work).
About EVE x64 client... There is very little advantages to it. All "x64" Windows and CPUs (Intel and AMD) are in reality a x86-64 Windows and CPUs.
x86-64 is a 64-bit superset of the x86 instruction set architecture. The x86-64 instruction set natively supports Intel's x86 and was designed by Advanced Micro Devices (AMD), who have since renamed it AMD64. This architecture has been cloned by Intel under the name Intel 64 (formerly known as Yamhill, Clackamas Technology, CT, IA-32e, and EM64T). This leads to the common use of the names x86-64 or x64 as more vendor-neutral terms to collectively refer to the two nearly identical implementations.
Therefore, even if you have x64 Windows installed, it will run your x86 (32-bit) Eve client just fine.
In addition, since in Windows Vista (and Windows XP) the maximum address space that a single process can allocate is 2GB (without any special extended address space flags), the advantage of 64-bit over 32-bit in memory space becomes a moot point.
But look at the bright side, since Eve is a 32-bit application, it can't damage system 64-bit files due to WOW64 (Windows 32bit on Windows 64bit) barriers. (This is a good thing due to recent boot.ini mishap.)
--- Corp Pet.
|
Vitor Kha'Re
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 04:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Vexy NiLakum In addition, since in Windows Vista (and Windows XP) the maximum address space that a single process can allocate is 2GB (without any special extended address space flags), the advantage of 64-bit over 32-bit in memory space becomes a moot point.
True, however setting flag isn't difficult and most IDE/API are now large address capable. There will be a real reason moving forward to use the IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE flag.
From MSDN
Quote:
User-mode virtual address space for each 32-bit process: 2 GB 4 GB with IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE
User-mode virtual address space for each 64-bit process: 2 GB 8 TB with IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE
Now before anyone gets "amazed" by the 8TB number Vista has hard limits of physical ram by verison. Windows Vista Ultimate, Enterprise, Business x64128 GB Windows Vista Home Premium x6416 GB Windows Vista Home Basic x648 GB
Since no game developer is going to develop for less than the full market the numbers above 8GB are useless.
It would be possible to develop a x64 Eve client to utilize a full 4GB for the application on a system with 6+GB of RAM. The eve client seems very memory tight so I don't think Eve will be first. RAM in systems doubles about every 2 years. Right now high end systems have 2GB so within 4 years we will see 8GB systems and developers takes advantage of x64 clients.
I don't know if any of the DEV have commented but I don't think eve would necessarily benefit for larger memory footprint (not every application will).
|
Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 08:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Vitor Kha'Re
It would be possible to develop a x64 Eve client to utilize a full 4GB for the application on a system with 6+GB of RAM. The eve client seems very memory tight so I don't think Eve will be first. RAM in systems doubles about every 2 years. Right now high end systems have 2GB so within 4 years we will see 8GB systems and developers takes advantage of x64 clients.
All normal workplace computers that are bought at my company now include 4GB RAM by default and my nearly 4 year old desktop at home has 2GB RAM already. So RIGHT now a system with 2GB RAM is by no means "high end". It is average, maybe even sub-average for just looking at new systems.
And for x64 Systems: There are more benefits that just the added address space. They can simply calculate faster because all calculations are done 64 bit (what wonder). Could be up to 3 times faster than 32 bit. They have twice as much registers which can significantly speed up calculations as well (this has nothing to do with 64bit itself in the fist place but is true for AMD64/EMT64). However nobody save the devs can tell IF EVE would profit from that. It could potentially be three times as fast just by switching to x64, or it could not gain a single bit of speedup (if none of the advantages could be used) or even get slower because of the higher memory usage by switching to 64bit.
|
Norwood Franskly
Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 08:13:00 -
[9]
It would be nice if they compiled a version of their linux client for x86_64 would save having to worry about 32bit computability libraries etc, theres a Fair number of 64bit systems in operation
|
DeathAndTaxxes
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 19:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Amida Ta
Originally by: Vitor Kha'Re All normal workplace computers that are bought at my company now include 4GB RAM by default and my nearly 4 year old desktop at home has 2GB RAM already. So RIGHT now a system with 2GB RAM is by no means "high end". It is average, maybe even sub-average for just looking at new systems.
Most computers today are NOT sold w/ 4+GB of RAM. Personally I have been using a system w/ 8GB of ram because I do a lot of DB work from home. I would consider my case and your case to be atypical. Until a sizable portion of users have 4GB+ it likely is not worth the resources to make the change. Kind of a chicken and egg scenario. Good news is average RAM is constantly increasing and within 2 years 4-8GB will be common on the "high end" (i.e top 20% of market, not top 1% like now).
Quote: There are more benefits that just the added address space. They can simply calculate faster because all calculations are done 64 bit (what wonder). Could be up to 3 times faster than 32 bit. They have twice as much registers which can significantly speed up calculations as well
While all of this is "true" it isn't exactly applicable. There are 0 integer calculations in eve that are >32bit.
20+20 isn't any faster in 64bit then it is in 32bit.
Quote: However nobody save the devs can tell IF EVE would profit from that. It could potentially be three times as fast just by switching to x64, or it could not gain a single bit of speedup (if none of the advantages could be used) or even get slower because of the higher memory usage by switching to 64bit.
While only the Dev can say for sure we can make some educated guesses.
1) Integer performance will not improve by going to x64. Eve doesn't work with large enough number sets to gain from move to 64bit.
2) Virtually all calculations in Eve (and any MMORPG) are done on server. The client is just a dumb terminal. It takes inputs send them over internet. It receives results from server and outputs it to the user. Given that a move to x64 isn't going to make a big change.
3) More memory 2GB+ may help but I rarely see Eve use >300MB and I have about 3.5GB+ of physical memory free at any time. If eve was constantly bumping against the current 2GB limit I would agree moving to x64 would give it some headroom. This isn't the case.
So my SWAG is that eve CLIENT will gain very very little by going to x64.
On the other hand changing the SERVER to x64 and changing all floating point calculations to 64bit integer could result in some performance improvement. It would require a substantial recoding, new OS, and likely new hardware. I wouldn't expect it anytime soon.
|
|
Templer Relleg
Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2008.02.21 09:30:00 -
[11]
I do agree with the points being made, that x64 just wont make a big enough difference, yet.
Who knows. Ambulation might just be a big enough memory ***** for it to make sense. But not yet.
As for multi threaded. Eve is in theory already multi threaded(My eve client is running 18 threads right now).
But they use stack less python, which is crap. So multi threading is already there, the implementation is just crap.
|
Soujiero
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.26 00:53:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Soujiero on 26/02/2008 00:59:11
Originally by: Vexy NiLakum
In addition, since in Windows Vista (and Windows XP) the maximum address space that a single process can allocate is 2GB (without any special extended address space flags), the advantage of 64-bit over 32-bit in memory space becomes a moot point.
Minor correction. The maximum a 32 bit process can allocate is 2gigs.Native 64 bit processes can allocate more.
1 gig 800mhz sticks of RAM were 15$ after rebate this last Christmas
Memory is cheap.
|
Amida Ta
German Mining and Manufacture Corp.
|
Posted - 2008.02.26 23:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: DeathAndTaxxes
Quote: There are more benefits that just the added address space. They can simply calculate faster because all calculations are done 64 bit (what wonder). Could be up to 3 times faster than 32 bit. They have twice as much registers which can significantly speed up calculations as well
While all of this is "true" it isn't exactly applicable. There are 0 integer calculations in eve that are >32bit.
Did you check that? The api has several Long values. I would be pretty surprised if the IDs for their internal tables (look at the mem ingame) where int32s
Originally by: DeathAndTaxxes
20+20 isn't any faster in 64bit then it is in 32bit.
It could be significantly faster because of the additional registers that are available on AMD/EMT64. Depends on the situation.
Originally by: DeathAndTaxxes
While only the Dev can say for sure we can make some educated guesses.
1) Integer performance will not improve by going to x64. Eve doesn't work with large enough number sets to gain from move to 64bit.
May likely be the case, but there is noway to be sure about this (e.g. sorting over table id's and the eve client has LOTS of these)
Originally by: DeathAndTaxxes
2) Virtually all calculations in Eve (and any MMORPG) are done on server. The client is just a dumb terminal. It takes inputs send them over internet. It receives results from server and outputs it to the user. Given that a move to x64 isn't going to make a big change.
This is likely wrong (it is also wrong for most other MMOGs). The client usually calculates the complete surrounding gamestate to reduce perceived lag - it only syncs with the server, but most visible changes are usually client-computed. The server only sends coarse command data (like new location that a ship is flying to, but the actual course is likely computed or at least interpolated on the client)
Originally by: DeathAndTaxxes
3) More memory 2GB+ may help but I rarely see Eve use >300MB and I have about 3.5GB+ of physical memory free at any time. If eve was constantly bumping against the current 2GB limit I would agree moving to x64 would give it some headroom. This isn't the case.
For me it uses up to 1GB RAM. But I've never seen it near the 2GB, so (at least currently) likely true.
|
Soujiero
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.28 00:11:00 -
[14]
There are places where it seems the UI thread is blocked, like when requesting market data or the initial login screen.
A little multi-threading in those areas would go a long way.
|
Sinnae Takeda
|
Posted - 2008.03.01 18:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zathi Shaitan Well, i got a Dual Opteron, and Eve only uses 1 CPU. Notice that this is a REAL Dual setup, not the new fashion dual cores, where everything is virtual.
So, on diehard TRUE Dual CPU Pcs, it's bad.
there is nothing virtual about core duo's second, resp. thrid and fourth processors (q series). they're most definitively separate processors - multiple physical cores under "one hood". you're thinking of P4's hyper-threading...
|
Ix Forres
Vanguard Frontiers Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2008.03.01 18:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Vitor Kha'Re
Now before anyone gets "amazed" by the 8TB number Vista has hard limits of physical ram by verison. Windows Vista Ultimate, Enterprise, Business x64128 GB Windows Vista Home Premium x6416 GB Windows Vista Home Basic x648 GB
That's 8TiB, not 8TB, by the way- OS limitations work in base 2, so it's 2^40 bytes rather than 10^12 bytes. Binary and all that.
EVE really won't benefit from more than 2GB of RAM unless you run multiple clients. Simple enough reason: There's just not that much game content. No game, unless it's poorly written (and I mean _really_ poorly written) will ever use more RAM than it has assets by a significant amount. Maybe a few megs of space but never anything like 100MB more. 2 gigs of RAM is enough for nearly any game out there today (We'll make an exception for Crysis, which seems to expect to run on the monolith from 2001, and even then won't get a FPS above 10) and even if you're doing other stuff will work fine. I usually have a whole crapola of stuff open while EVEing on two clients on Trinity graphics, and have pretty good performance with 2GB, rarely hitting low memory conditions even with 3DS Max up.
Multithreading would be nice, but I suspect that's more of a major rewrite than CCP can do in a few months. Personally I think multithreading should have been the real Trinity upgrade- now we've got a much slowed client with no speed increased, which is no love for fleet battles, I tell you.
Blog |
Zortav
|
Posted - 2008.03.01 20:48:00 -
[17]
I have just reinstalled Windows Vista moving from x86 to x64.
What I can say is that there is some difference in the way these two versions schedule the threads, probably related to the fact that they are 32 bit ones. On the 32 bit OS, all the 4 cores of my CPU were more of less loaded, with the total being around 1/4 of the available power. Now all the load is almost on a single core.
As I said probably this could be related to the fact that the OS in the attempt to minimize the overhead of going back and forth to 32 bit mode, tries to put all the threads of this type on the same core. In this case having a 64 bits version of EVE could help.
|
Ix Forres
Vanguard Frontiers Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 00:32:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Zortav I have just reinstalled Windows Vista moving from x86 to x64.
What I can say is that there is some difference in the way these two versions schedule the threads, probably related to the fact that they are 32 bit ones. On the 32 bit OS, all the 4 cores of my CPU were more of less loaded, with the total being around 1/4 of the available power. Now all the load is almost on a single core.
As I said probably this could be related to the fact that the OS in the attempt to minimize the overhead of going back and forth to 32 bit mode, tries to put all the threads of this type on the same core. In this case having a 64 bits version of EVE could help.
Surely you then just set the affinity of EVE to use the core it's not using? Often if I'm doing something like 3D work or video work, I shunt all processes to only use core 0 and then let the app in question have a core to itself, leaving enough processor space for windows, IRC and whatnot to run while not affecting the performance of the other app (It's consistent, even if it's now unable to use all the processing power).
Blog |
Hitaki Uanihi
|
Posted - 2008.03.04 16:19:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Hitaki Uanihi on 04/03/2008 16:23:45 Edited by: Hitaki Uanihi on 04/03/2008 16:21:34 A problem that I personally have with EVE (and x86 native processes in general) is that they won't allocate memory addresses above 2GB. This may sound obvious, but I don't think it is being covered here.
My system has 4GB of physical memory. EVE uses 1GB of memory in normal operation for me. That 1GB must be within the first 2GB because it is a 32-bit app. Unfortunately, a significant amount of memory from the first 2GB is also allocated either by other 32-bit apps that I am running or 64-bit apps that are using the first available addresses. So my computer gets up to the 2GB 32-bit limit fairly quickly.
So what? Well, I multitask. While I may be running EVE on one of my monitors, I may also be editing a spreadsheet to test ship fittings, browsing eveinfo, and watching the alliance tourney on the others. And the moment my memory usage hits 2GB, I have to choose what I want to stop doing, because all of them (all being 32-bit apps, unfortunately) need memory that is in the first 2GB, and there isn't enough to go around. My 4GB of memory is, for all practical purposes, only being half used.
Having a 64-bit EVE client would improve gameplay for x64 systems, not due to increased speed in computation, but rather due to more flexible memory addressing. That being said, implementing a 64-bit native client would be no small task, and I doubt we'll be seeing one anytime soon.
EDIT:
Originally by: Ix Forres Surely you then just set the affinity of EVE to use the core it's not using? Often if I'm doing something like 3D work or video work, I shunt all processes to only use core 0 and then let the app in question have a core to itself, leaving enough processor space for windows, IRC and whatnot to run while not affecting the performance of the other app (It's consistent, even if it's now unable to use all the processing power).
I think the problem with this is the way in which windows x64 runs x32 apps, not in EVE itself. It is possible (and my belief) that WOW is not as efficient in multithreading as a native x32 system would be, perhaps to improve compatibility. Another reason a x64 client would be great.
|
jcoutepascher
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 05:34:00 -
[20]
Well here is what i think its better to optimize code in a portable way for CCP so i dont think 64 bit will happen soon the reason is becose if you change to 64 bit its not just the compilation that will be affected its also the system calls that will need to be modified some of the memory managment also & all sorts of bits & peices so i understand the reluctance to move to 64 bit
I realy dont understand why the client is not multitreaded it just simply dosent make sens for a game you in a game you need as much power you can get & that means lower level code & more efficient coding so multitread is only making shure that you get as much power that you can. i dont understand the python thing .. why not C++ . well since i dont know pyton i cant vouch for or against .
i do know a thing tho ... i like EVE
|
|
Hitaki Uanihi
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.03.07 18:28:00 -
[21]
Originally by: jcoutepascher I realy dont understand why the client is not multitreaded it just simply dosent make sens for a game you in a game you need as much power you can get & that means lower level code & more efficient coding so multitread is only making shure that you get as much power that you can.
EVE is multi-threaded, but emulating software such as WOW64 doesn't seem to spread threads across multiple processors very well. ____ You've just WON the game. It's OK. You're free now. |
Soujiero
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.03.08 04:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hitaki Uanihi
Originally by: jcoutepascher I realy dont understand why the client is not multitreaded it just simply dosent make sens for a game you in a game you need as much power you can get & that means lower level code & more efficient coding so multitread is only making shure that you get as much power that you can.
EVE is multi-threaded, but emulating software such as WOW64 doesn't seem to spread threads across multiple processors very well.
Eve is not as multi-threaded as it could be. The UI thread gets blocked in many areas.
Market and login are two very specific times.
|
Kyra Felann
Gallente Noir.
|
Posted - 2008.03.08 15:55:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zathi Shaitan Well, i got a Dual Opteron, and Eve only uses 1 CPU. Notice that this is a REAL Dual setup, not the new fashion dual cores, where everything is virtual.
So, on diehard TRUE Dual CPU Pcs, it's bad.
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |