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Dr Asimov
E-ON Solutions
0
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Posted - 2012.02.06 01:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
I recently read an article on EvE-O forums called "The #1 reason why CCP will NEVER ban bots..." by Mai Khumm
It does not tell the real reason nor has anyone else who replied touched on the real reason they cannot deal with the "Bot" issue.
The REAL reason CCP cannot deal with the "BOT" issue is a simple one.
Manpower.
CCP is like any other company in this world, trying to stay alive in it's current economic status. They simply cannot afford the manpower to investigate the botting complaints ad/or suspects. There are a multitude of things they could do but they cannot for various reasons. In the subscribers eyes all they see is the cash flowing in from their subs and all these shinies that CCP gives us.
You as the subscribers don't really know what goes into a company of this size in order to bring to us the game we play today.
IF they had the manpower, it would be very simple to get rid of hundreds of "BOTS" a week and yes I said hundreds per week.
Here is how simple it is.
I used to play a game before EvE called Freelancer. CCP in fact has modeled the market and the standings from that very game. Anyone who has played Freelancer knows this to be true.
I will show you how the simple solution on HOW to remove the botters relates to Freelancer.
In Freelancer anyone with the proper server rights given to them can teleport to an exact location. We know the Dev's and others in CCP can do the same thing, as those who have fought in the tournaments can attest to this teleportation ability.
They also have the ability to be unseen in local as well as on your overview.
They can observe the bot and using a set of guidelines for determining if it is indeed a "BOT" and ban it.
When I ran the Freelancer server I could determine right away if someone was a "modder" or was cheating in other ways. But managing the hundreds of people coming and going was a full time job.
So I created the [SP] aka server Police.
These people were hand picked players who had no affiliations with the other clans on the server and wanted to see fair play for all.
I never had any incident in which they abused their powers of the [SP] and my server ran smoothly for years.
But these people were volunteers and I didn't have to pay them.
Now CCP will never give a subscriber [SP] rights on their server because sooner or later someone would abuse it or have the ability to distribute the credentials to others who would.
So it all goes back to the manpower issue.
So how does CCP get more manpower to have an [SP] team? Up our subscription fees? Use some of their profits?
You guys come up with the solution to their manpower issue and how to pay for it without cutting into their bottom line, and I would bet they would at least toss the idea around for a few minutes.
Now if CCP really wanted someone to help with alot of the issues that make this game less appealing and increase their subscriber base and do more to make their bottom line larger they know how to contact me via this account.
And stop trying to say CCP doesn't want to remove bots and make this game better because they do! They wouldn't and haven't come 8 years for nothing!
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Shukuzen Kiraa
47-Ronin Outer Ring Excavations Syndicate
68
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Posted - 2012.02.06 01:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Remove local from null, players can then clean up the bot problem themselves. As for high sec botters, I can't really think of a solid idea for them...make missions hard/more unpredictable and or unscripted so they are not always the same. Make it harder for programs to play for you. No idea how to disrupt mining bots though. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4813
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Posted - 2012.02.06 01:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dr Asimov wrote:I used to play a game before EvE called Freelancer. CCP in fact has modeled the market and the standings from that very game. Anyone who has played Freelancer knows this to be true. GǪaside from the Freelancer market being nothing like the EVE market, and EVE being released two weeks after Freelancer giving them very little time to model anything based on that game (not to mention that the market model for EVE is far older than that and that Freelancer's standings mechanics weren't particularly original so they wouldn't have been copying FL anyway).
In fact, the only thing worth emulating from FL in EVE is its space geography GÇö the way you noticed moving around the Sirius sector when you jump from one system to the next (and with, what? 50 systems compared to EVE's 7500, that's a whole lot easier). Pretty nothing else is worth salvaging, and that includes the way one would detect or deal with cheaters in that game. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1374
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Posted - 2012.02.06 02:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Shukuzen Kiraa wrote:Remove local from null, players can then clean up the bot problem themselves. As for high sec botters, I can't really think of a solid idea for them...make missions hard/more unpredictable and or unscripted so they are not always the same. Make it harder for programs to play for you. No idea how to disrupt mining bots though.
I've heard rumors (unsubstantiated as yet) of bots operating in WH space that are able to (on some sort of timer) click a certain button that allows them to detect incoming threats. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution
136
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Posted - 2012.02.06 02:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shukuzen Kiraa wrote:Remove local from null, players can then clean up the bot problem themselves. As for high sec botters, I can't really think of a solid idea for them...make missions hard/more unpredictable and or unscripted so they are not always the same. Make it harder for programs to play for you. No idea how to disrupt mining bots though. Why do people keep suggest this as a way to stop bots? It won't at all.
Why? The reason is that the bots (sophisticated ones) are not just screen scraping the local window. They are performing python injection into the Eve client. This means they know what the client knows.
What does this mean? The eve client has to know about people in local/on grid etc... even if they are not shown in local. We see this in effect in a wormhole. Therefore, the information is still there for the to access. Its the HUMAN player that cannot know what is in local as the client doesn't tell them unless they hack it.
Fix Faction Warfare CCP!!! |
Widemouth Deepthroat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2012.02.06 03:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
You can just google for bots and look at their websites, manuals etc to see that you're wrong. All the popular bots use local chat to detect hostiles. In fact I couldn't even find one that uses another method of detecing hostiles. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1374
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Posted - 2012.02.06 03:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Widemouth Deepthroat wrote:You can just google for bots and look at their websites, manuals etc to see that you're wrong. All the popular bots use local chat to detect hostiles. In fact I couldn't even find one that uses another method of detecing hostiles.
You really think they wouldn't be able to adapt? Botting adapted to get around Blizzard's Warden which is incredibly invasive. And you think that just changing from check Local to Pres DScan>Check DScan is going to be impossible for the botters to adapt to? Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
Widemouth Deepthroat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2012.02.06 03:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
You never heard of a covert ops cloak? |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1374
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Posted - 2012.02.06 03:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Widemouth Deepthroat wrote:You never heard of a covert ops cloak?
Ever heard of keeping someone cloaked on gate? Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
140
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Posted - 2012.02.06 04:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
but it would take the bot programmers about 20 minutes of time to write, test and deliver a new method involving the d-scanner
bots are much better at watching d-scan than humans could ever be btw |
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
56
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Posted - 2012.02.06 04:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
If you think you can solve anything in EVE by giving a player taskforce special GM/Dev powers, you've either lost your mind or you are completely unaware of the game you are playing. |
Widemouth Deepthroat
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2012.02.06 04:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Widemouth Deepthroat wrote:You never heard of a covert ops cloak? Ever heard of keeping someone cloaked on gate?
I'd love to see how this would work. Would the bot just shutdown for the day if one hostile passed it's cloaky eyes? What a great money maker! |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1374
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Posted - 2012.02.06 04:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Widemouth Deepthroat wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Widemouth Deepthroat wrote:You never heard of a covert ops cloak? Ever heard of keeping someone cloaked on gate? I'd love to see how this would work. Would the bot just shutdown for the day if one hostile passed it's cloaky eyes? What a great money maker!
Dunno, doesn't change that bots can watch DScan better than people. Second, if you keep Null based on Anoms (scannable without probes) and get rid of local, nobody's going to rat there to begin with, so getting rid of local necessarily means removing the isk generation to probing sites. Third, anything people can do, Bots can generally do better. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1939
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Posted - 2012.02.06 04:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Shukuzen Kiraa wrote:Remove local from null, players can then clean up the bot problem themselves. As for high sec botters, I can't really think of a solid idea for them...make missions hard/more unpredictable and or unscripted so they are not always the same. Make it harder for programs to play for you. No idea how to disrupt mining bots though.
removing local from null would screw players at the keyboard moreso than bots, fyi andski for csm7~ |
trexinatux
Bipedal Carnivore Club
23
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Posted - 2012.02.06 05:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Corruptible police force with magic powers? Yes please, create thousands and unleash them upon the game. Helpless people on subway trains... |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3090
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Posted - 2012.02.06 08:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
You do realize they're not that stupid are splitting thier man poer into bott banning and anti botting methoods.
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Florestan Bronstein
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
403
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Posted - 2012.02.06 09:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
I don't care how many bots CCP does or doesn't ban.
But the ease with which the client's python code can be decompiled and with which bots can hook into the client process is a disgrace.
Manually looking for botters is a waste of time.
It's sad that CCP doesn't want to implement proper behavioral analysis but I can imagine that this is not only a matter of false positives but also of server-side resources (when the bot detection takes more CPU cycles on the server than the bots cause, the whole unholy rage argument doesn't apply anmyore) |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
73
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Posted - 2012.02.06 09:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
I don't expect CCP to eliminate bots. If I had to make a prediction it would be that EVE will simply eliminate any advantage they can have and automate all the bot worthy content. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
2371
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Posted - 2012.02.06 09:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote:It's sad that CCP doesn't want to implement proper behavioral analysis but I can imagine that this is not only a matter of false positives but also of server-side resources (when the bot detection takes more CPU cycles on the server than the bots cause, the whole unholy rage argument doesn't apply anmyore) There are ways to easily spot some of the bots anyway - Linkage
/c
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Amsterdam Conversations
Cheesecake Starshine
89
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Posted - 2012.02.06 10:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Florestan Bronstein wrote:It's sad that CCP doesn't want to implement proper behavioral analysis but I can imagine that this is not only a matter of false positives but also of server-side resources (when the bot detection takes more CPU cycles on the server than the bots cause, the whole unholy rage argument doesn't apply anmyore) There are ways to easily spot some of the bots anyway - Linkage/c How do you know they are bots.
It's impossible to prove!
The excuses why bots aren't being banned are ridiculous. I said it before often, and I'll say it again, there's indicators that prove people are bots that are flawless, such as nullified ratting Tengus or hell even certain ship names. Searching for those Tengus and a few names ("Is- paranoid" something) will give you hundreds of botters in an instant.
But noooo, it's impossible to find bots.
******* bullshit.
It's also funny how people think that bots use some type of python injection. All the bot programs I've seen so far are useless screen readers. When you have to set your window colors to black it means that there is not even OCR involved (which all bot programs are advertised with).
Writing a bot for WoW might be somewhat difficult, but writing a bot for EVE... That's something a 12 year old could do after a few weeks of learning how to program. |
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Mai Khumm
Apple Construction Inc Northern Associates.
164
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Posted - 2012.02.06 10:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
Thanks for reading my post, it's good to see that it wasn't insta locked and filled with trolls.
I"d like to point out a thing on your post if you don't mind.
Dr Asimov wrote:You guys come up with the solution to their manpower issue and how to pay for it without cutting into their bottom line, and I would bet they would at least toss the idea around for a few minutes.
I'll quote myself here from the forum post you're reffering to...
Mai Khumm wrote: Now a very simple solution to how (in my view) to fix the problem. The problem rests with the game itself. Well, any game with a botting problem in general. If any game can be scripted to the point where a program can be written to play the game without fail. That's THE problem. The solution is very simple, randomize EVE. Don't have everything scripted. Not only would this kill the bot problem, but it would also bring new life into a boring game.
As you can tell, I already have come up with said solution.
Now let me explain on how easy this is to do. About 4 years ago, part of an old Networking class we had an assigment to build and maintain a server that would host a service of our choice. I decided to pick a WOW server. That was quite easy to run and setup, but having access and the ability to modify everything in the game was the fun part. After the project was comlpeted me and a IRL friend started playing with the coding a lil bit. After some tiral and error we learned how to control NPC movement. It took the 2 of us roughtly a weekend to "randomize" an instiance called "The Deadmines" We managed to setup 5 different NPC layouts and behaviour. So now whenever a player would start the instiance the server would randomly choose one of the NPC layouts.
The only hard part was figuring everything out, and since CCP made the game themselves from scratch. Well.....there goes the hard part!
On a finall note...
Dr Asimov wrote:Now if CCP really wanted someone to help with alot of the issues that make this game less appealing and increase their subscriber base and do more to make their bottom line larger they know how to contact me via this account. Kinda tooting your own horn there eh buddy? I highly doubt anyone from CCP is going to contact you, a random player. No knowledge of your background whatsoever, yeah they'll come crawling to you to hear your EVE saving solution. Now as you snap out of la la land, the only real way to get noticed is by applying for a job at CCP, or buying a seat on the CSM. James Hetfield, can you please hit the bottle again and make good music? |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
2371
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Posted - 2012.02.06 10:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
Amsterdam Conversations wrote:Chribba wrote:Florestan Bronstein wrote:It's sad that CCP doesn't want to implement proper behavioral analysis but I can imagine that this is not only a matter of false positives but also of server-side resources (when the bot detection takes more CPU cycles on the server than the bots cause, the whole unholy rage argument doesn't apply anmyore) There are ways to easily spot some of the bots anyway - Linkage/c How do you know they are bots. It's impossible to prove! One can only just assume based upon their behavior at times right?
/c
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
139
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Posted - 2012.02.06 11:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
I don't think manpower is the issue.
Most bots use the local intel channel to operate, right?! So change local, simple. |
Amsterdam Conversations
Cheesecake Starshine
89
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Posted - 2012.02.06 11:36:00 -
[24] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I don't think manpower is the issue.
Most bots use the local intel channel to operate, right?! So change local, simple.
No.
Don't try to cure the symptom, cure the disease itself.
It's like when your corn field has been destroyed by millions of crickets, you don't just plant more corn. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
139
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Posted - 2012.02.06 11:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
Amsterdam Conversations wrote:Rek Seven wrote:I don't think manpower is the issue.
Most bots use the local intel channel to operate, right?! So change local, simple. No. Don't try to cure the symptom, cure the disease itself. It's like when your corn field has been destroyed by millions of crickets, you don't just plant more corn.
No you spray your field (the game) with insecticide (gameplay changes) to kill off the crickets (botters).
It's ridiculous to expect CCP and the players to actively seek out, identify and then punish the botters. They will just create another account.
You have to change the game mechanics to make it more difficult for the bot programs to work. Sure they will adapt eventually but that's what humans are best at. |
Florestan Bronstein
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
403
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Posted - 2012.02.06 12:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
Amsterdam Conversations wrote: It's also funny how people think that bots use some type of python injection. All the bot programs I've seen so far are useless screen readers.
You didn't look very hard, did you?
I am mostly interested in bots that can do complex tasks like mission running. OCR bots are notoriously buggy and a mess to maintain.
There's a mission bot based on ISXEVE, there's Questor/DirectEVE and there's Eve Grinder which is still under development.
None of these works via OCR, all of these hook into EVE to call the client's python methods.
Features like using scan probes would be nearly impossible via screen-reading but are very doable via python injections as evidenced by Probe Helper (you didn't believe CCP came up with Alt+Drag on its own, did you? they backported some of the features of a well-known python injection script).
CCP already has a "first strike permaban for client modifications" policy in place (compared to the 3 strikes solution for OCR bots/simple macros) which is nice but not enough.
The client has to be hardened and even if this results in an arms race (ISXStealth & RedGuard might be seen as evidence for this) the case of WoW shows that at some point the botting community becomes so secluded and paranoid that "casual" botting is greatly reduced while the larger RMT outfits guard their private bots jealously from each other. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1379
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Posted - 2012.02.06 12:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Amsterdam Conversations wrote:Rek Seven wrote:I don't think manpower is the issue.
Most bots use the local intel channel to operate, right?! So change local, simple. No. Don't try to cure the symptom, cure the disease itself. It's like when your corn field has been destroyed by millions of crickets, you don't just plant more corn. No you spray your field (the game) with insecticide (gameplay changes) to kill off the crickets (botters). It's ridiculous to expect CCP and the players to actively seek out, identify and then punish the botters. They will just create another account. You have to change the game mechanics to make it more difficult for the bot programs to work. Sure they will adapt eventually but that's what humans are best at.
Removing Local from Null would be akin to hosing your cornfield down with Agent Orange in an attempt to kill a couple dandelions. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1379
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Posted - 2012.02.06 12:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote: The client has to be hardened and even if this results in an arms race (ISXStealth & RedGuard might be seen as evidence for this) the case of WoW shows that at some point the botting community becomes so secluded that "casual" botting is greatly reduced while the larger RMT outfits guard their private bots jealously from each other.
The biggest thing that WoW did to combat bots was make gold fairly worthless by making the good loot impossible to trade.
Untradeable loot => No incentive to RMT => Less RMT
Problem is, doing that to EvE would be terrible. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
17
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Posted - 2012.02.06 12:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
Is botting that big an issue?
This game does lend it's self to hysteria rather well and although I've seen many (pretty much all) miners exhibiting botting type behaviour (to the extent that I've been accused in the past), when I've been on TS with them, they're all real and chatting\watching trash tv\doing thier thing.
I'm not saying their aren't bots, I'd just like some kind of proof\statistics. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
139
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Posted - 2012.02.06 12:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Amsterdam Conversations wrote:Rek Seven wrote:I don't think manpower is the issue.
Most bots use the local intel channel to operate, right?! So change local, simple. No. Don't try to cure the symptom, cure the disease itself. It's like when your corn field has been destroyed by millions of crickets, you don't just plant more corn. No you spray your field (the game) with insecticide (gameplay changes) to kill off the crickets (botters). It's ridiculous to expect CCP and the players to actively seek out, identify and then punish the botters. They will just create another account. You have to change the game mechanics to make it more difficult for the bot programs to work. Sure they will adapt eventually but that's what humans are best at. Removing Local from Null would be akin to hosing your cornfield down with Agent Orange in an attempt to kill a couple dandelions.
I never said remove local (not in this thread anyway).
If a bot is programmed to dock when someone is in local... Always have someone is local... This could be an npc that players could identify but bots couldn't. Just of of the many ways to combat a simple problem.
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