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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.22 11:54:00 -
[1]
BlackOps ships make for great 'long range, extended operations away from home'. Why? Because they can cloak, and don't suffer targeting delays while fitting cloaks.
Sure, they can't warp cloaked, and they still get heavy penalties for their scan resolution for fitting cloaks, but it's not as bad as if you fit a cloak on a standard BS like all the farmers do. This allows the pilot to cloak/hide if anyone comes into the system to try and gank them. What fun! You can hide, and you don't get much of a penalty like normal BS. For PVP, they're still relatively useless, as the ruined scan resolution doesn't help the already slow locking BS nab targets before they warp off. Oh well. It's good for ratting.
The jump portals. They can jump past camps, in a pinch. If the Ratters *really* need to get home, or past a particularly nasty camp, they can carry some spare fuel and jump a fairly short distance to safety. Used only as a last resort, this ability allows farmers to further avoid death at the hands of PVPers.
The Sin and Redeemer can operate fairly ammo-free. The Widow and Panther have ammo problems of course, but the Redeemer is looking particularly effective as a long-endurance deep space ISK farming machine.
The Marauders-
Mission runners hate them. They whine about the cost. They whine that they don't clear missions out twice as fast as their current multi-billion ISK faction BS. They hate everything there is about Marauders. They can't stand 'em.
I like my Marauder. It's great. Less peak DPS than a Hype or Mega with it's loss of one drone, the Kronos has twice the cap efficiency while shooting it's four guns, and gets the rep bonus of the Hype with the tracking and slot layout of the Mega. Good stuff. The *giant* cargo bay can hold plenty of 800 cap charges, as well as lots of ammo. Now I can finally carry a variety of ammo (only need two types really) and not have to worry about sacrificing cargo space for 800 charges.
Slightly improved resists are icing on the cake. Slow lock times really (really) suck, allowing all but the slowest targets to get away, but I can live with that. The web bonus is *great*. Never thought I'd enjoy it so much, but I love it. This, combined with the tracking bonus is just wonderful when having to deal with the crap tracking of BS sized guns.
But then there's the sensor strength. Light ECM drones keep any Marauder perma-jammed. It's crap. If EW ships are anywhere near the same system, the Kronos stays docked. There's just no point in using it. The Kronos has a few neat little features, but in the end it can't do more DPS than existing ships, and doesn't tank much better either (when compared to existing Gallente BS like the Hype) with it's one less rig slot, but additional low slot.
I like it for it's looks and it's little extras like the web bonus, and the fact that I can overload it's guns for a few seconds and not have them explode on me like they do with my Hype.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.22 11:55:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 22/12/2007 12:02:59 The other three ships I have less experience with, but I have flown the Vargur on test with a HG Crystal set (I have HG Slaves/Snakes on TQ) and WOW, what a tank.
Great long range ship, huuuuge tank with crystals, and capless guns with very good DPS at great ranges.
The Golem is just sick. Every time I've fought one on test it's just been crazy. Great close range brawler with a massive tank (tanks two Kronos lol). Just the thing for PVP. Too bad it's ruined with low sensor strength.
The Paladin is really similar to the Kronos. It gets an even larger benefit from cutting the number of guns in half, as the cap/sec drops drastically, reducing the load on your single heavy cap injector to something somewhat reasonable. You have big lasers, big repping power, decent cap efficiency, great range and a webbing bonus like the Kronos. Awesome stuff.
So yeah, swap the roles of the ships. Make the BlackOps the farmer specials of Eve, and tweak the Marauders so that we can stop hearing everyone tell us that they're 'PVE only' and put them to good use on the front lines. Such a waste of some brilliant ship design to have these T2 BS crippled by a single flaw. It's not like 25 sensor strength is going to make them flat out immune to EW anyway. Not even close. They'll still get jammed quite often, but they won't be absolutely screwed right out of the box like they are now.
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madaluap
Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.12.22 13:27:00 -
[3]
No. Keep the black op for pvp and marauders for npcing. That sensorstrenght is pure balance. _________________________________________________ Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
Krimson Goddess
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Posted - 2007.12.22 13:41:00 -
[4]
i dont know who ur friends are Bellum but im a mission runner/miner and my 2 friends in Golems love it over there CN Raven. As far as the other races my BF flys all of them and has one of eash and he more then inpressed with them. The Min one with Arts is just a Alpha strike wh%$e. Puts amazing numbers up. Dont know much about the Black Ops BSs only do to i only seen them on my bf char when hes flying around in 00. But what i know about them is that 00 gangs love them in there nano gangs carrying 2 carriers 1 Mother and 2-4 Dreads 4-5 systems back. Thats what ive seen them used for and they love the new ships. I know im loving my EW frigs for Gallente and Min. Lots of tatics in a small box.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.12.22 13:52:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Pottsey on 22/12/2007 13:52:28 ôI like my Marauder. It's great. Less peak DPS than a Hype or Mega with it's loss of one drone, the Kronos has twice the cap efficiency while shooting it's four guns,ö Less peak DPS? Its got way more effective DPS. The Kronos hits better then the Hyper so it deals more damage and if you have damage implants it does more damage then a Mega. Not only that but you can overheat it much easier with 50% less turrets so less heats and 3 heatsyncs. Faction and T2 ammo is cost effetive wth a Kronos.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
ArmyOfMe
Exotic Dancers Club Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2007.12.22 15:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The Marauders-
Mission runners hate them. They whine about the cost. They whine that they don't clear missions out twice as fast as their current multi-billion ISK faction BS. They hate everything there is about Marauders. They can't stand 'em.
I like my golem
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Mastin Dragonfly
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2007.12.22 15:59:00 -
[7]
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The Marauders-
Mission runners hate them. They whine about the cost. They whine that they don't clear missions out twice as fast as their current multi-billion ISK faction BS. They hate everything there is about Marauders. They can't stand 'em.
I like my golem
Love my paladin~
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2007.12.22 16:34:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
It gets an even larger benefit from cutting the number of guns in half, as the cap/sec drops drastically,
The 4 guns on paladin use the same cap as the 8 guns on an apoc because the paladin lost the laser cap usage reduction bonus(amounting to a total of 50% with bs lvl 5).
Other then that what is the point of your post? That CCP screwed up royally and we now have 8 pretty much useless tech2 bs? In that case i am inclined to agree.
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Anubis Xian
Vertigo One
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Posted - 2007.12.22 17:10:00 -
[9]
Marauders should at least get two launchers (or two guns in the case of the Golem) to give it more potential, but no bonuses for them.
And the Tractor Bonus really could be something more useful for pvp.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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neutero
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Posted - 2007.12.22 18:05:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus The Marauders-
Mission runners hate them. They whine about the cost. They whine that they don't clear missions out twice as fast as their current multi-billion ISK faction BS. They hate everything there is about Marauders. They can't stand 'em.
Compare the Golem vs CNR, both with standard fittings and you'll see there's not much to like.
Boost the Golem |
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.22 21:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: neutero
Originally by: Bellum Eternus The Marauders-
Mission runners hate them. They whine about the cost. They whine that they don't clear missions out twice as fast as their current multi-billion ISK faction BS. They hate everything there is about Marauders. They can't stand 'em.
Compare the Golem vs CNR, both with standard fittings and you'll see there's not much to like.
I'm confused. I clearly state that the mission runners (you I'm assuming) whine like crazy that they hate the Golem the way it is because it's 'useless' for mission running over their current faction stetups. And then you tell me to 'compare the Golem'. I've already done that. Hence, my statement about how mission runners (you) are still whining about it, and it should just be re-purposed into something different so that you'll stop whining about it and do something else.
So are you just being obtuse? Or are you just an @sshole?
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.22 21:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 22/12/2007 13:52:28 ôI like my Marauder. It's great. Less peak DPS than a Hype or Mega with it's loss of one drone, the Kronos has twice the cap efficiency while shooting it's four guns,ö Less peak DPS? Its got way more effective DPS. The Kronos hits better then the Hyper so it deals more damage and if you have damage implants it does more damage then a Mega. Not only that but you can overheat it much easier with 50% less turrets so less heats and 3 heatsyncs. Faction and T2 ammo is cost effetive wth a Kronos.
My point Pottsey is that it doesn't do significantly more DPS than either the Hype or Mega, and note that you pointed out that the Kronos does more DPS than the Mega, not the Hype of course, because of the gun differential and the fact that implants only apply bonuses to guns and not drones. If you were completely forthright, you'd go on to say that the margin of difference is almost microscopic. It's not the same as say, a Vexor vs. an Ishtar's dps. Or a Brutix vs. an Astarte.
Here is the point: the Marauders are *slightly* better or pretty much exactly the same with regard to peak damage output and tanking as other ships that already exist. They may be a little more suitable for overloaded modules, and more ammunition efficient, but this in no way overpowers them for PVP.
Doubling their sensor strength (Kronos would have 26 for instance) wouldn't hurt anything in the least. They can still be damped, turret disrupted (for three of them at least) and jammed by EW ships. All the improved sensor strength would do is make them less susceptible to ECM drones.
If these ships did *twice* the DPS of a Hyperion, like the Astarte does compared to a Brutix, then yeah, keep the low sensor strength. But they don't. I think the sensor strength problem is just silly.
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Anubis Xian
Vertigo One
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Posted - 2007.12.22 22:18:00 -
[13]
If the Special Damage bonus was say, 120% rather than 100%, do you think Marauders would be fine?
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.12.22 22:18:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Pottsey on 22/12/2007 22:23:52 ôMy point Pottsey is that it doesn't do significantly more DPS than either the Hype or Mega, and Due to the way it overheats and the fact it can sustain overheating for much longer it does 15% more DPS. Now add on the extra DPS with the extra tracking and its far beyound the Hyper damage out put.
I donÆt see how you can say hitting more and dealing 15% more DPS is ô*slightly* better or pretty much exactly the sameö You can also swap to faction ammo for more damage. A Hyper with faction ammo really eats into your profits for PvE. A Krones can use Faction ammo without much worry. EDIT: Not only better tracking at range but due to web bonus it hits at close range to.
önote that you pointed out that the Kronos does more DPS than the Mega, not the Hype of course,ô The Kronos does more effective DPS then the Hyper as it got better tracking which means more hits. The Kronos pretty much has 1 and a half tracking computers built in which does make a big diffrance.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.23 00:24:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Pottsey ...stuff...
Pottsey, I think we're both correct. But I think that we're talking about two different contexts. I'm assuming you're making your conclusions based on PVE and not PVP? I'm talking only about PVP. And specifically, since we're comparing the Kronos vs. the Mega and Hype, and not the Vargur/Paladin/Golem etc. vs. their respective ships, we're discussing blaster setups.
Tracking bonuses for BS sized guns make a large difference in tracking smaller (fast BCs, cruisers on down) targets at extended ranges. Up close against webbed battleships, tracking is largely superfluous. You're either at zero transverse and hitting, or you're at something other than zero, and you're missing. 25% more tracking in that binary environment is meaningless. You don't get 'better quality hits' because your tracking is 25% better in a Kronos vs. a Hype.
I fly Blasterthrons and Blasterhypes a *lot*, and the real difference in the tracking is in that small amount of time where you're approaching the target, and you're closing from 17km (where you're missing due to range issues anyway) to 3km and stopped at a dead stop.
That amount of time is a very small amount compared to the rest of the fight. The tracking bonus doesn't even come into use during the majority of the fight. I do just as much DPS with my Hype and have the same quality hits as I do with my Mega, and it has no tracking bonus. If the tracking made that much of a difference, you'd see the Hype losing 25% of it's effective DPS, and the Mega would walk all over it, which it doesn't. The Kronos is no different. It's not doing more DPS due to tracking. Not in PVP.
PVE is a totally different story, but I'm not discussing that. What I'm discussing is improving the sensor strength so that it's more suitable for PVP. Sensor strength for PVE is irrelevant, so what would PVE players care if the sensor strength was improved?
As far as overloading goes, I think that it's a little silly to count that as a consistant factor in the ship design as far as what can be considered 'maximum consistant output'. That's comparable to saying that high grade crystal sets should always be taken into account when calculating active shield tanks. Just because it's available doesn't mean that it's going to be used the majority of the time.
Faction ammo: for me at least, it's the defacto standard for PVP. Again, we're talking about two different things, and I agree with you that half the ammo consumption is a factor in PVE. It's meaningless in PVP.
So, IMO, we're both right. You're making perfectly valid points for PVE, and I concur with all of them, but I'm talking about increasing the sensor strength for PVP, and in that context, I think all my points are perfectly valid/correct.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.23 01:21:00 -
[16]
Originally by: madaluap No. Keep the black op for pvp and marauders for npcing. That sensorstrenght is pure balance.
the the low sensor str suck, not like these would dominate pvp anyways, as a battleship it is slow, vulnerable, and with that price, a prime gank target.
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
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wide
Gallente Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.12.23 07:24:00 -
[17]
Wow, for the noobs out there, learn from this guy's justification of an argument:
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Or are you just an @sshole?
I've read neutero's post comparing the Goelm to the CNR and the argument seems valid that there is just not enough to like relative to the cost. Perhaps you should try the same, get off your high horse and actually read it. Once you get over your fabulous ego you may find others have something to say that is worth listening to. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.23 07:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: wide Wow, for the noobs out there, learn from this guy's justification of an argument:
Originally by: Bellum Eternus Or are you just an @sshole?
I've read neutero's post comparing the Goelm to the CNR and the argument seems valid that there is just not enough to like relative to the cost. Perhaps you should try the same, get off your high horse and actually read it. Once you get over your fabulous ego you may find others have something to say that is worth listening to.
Makes sense that you're in KOS.
Since you missed my point entirely, I'll reiterate:
I don't care if the Golem isn't performance/cost effective vs. the CNR. That's for PVE. I'm not discussing PVE. Never have been. So I'm wondering if *you* are also being dense, or are you just a jerk as well?
The Golem - CNR debate has nothing to do with buffing Marauder sensor strength a bit. For some reason everyone keeps coming in here and posting about completely random stuff, like the balance between Marauders or the effectiveness of Marauders vs. faction or regular BS, when that isn't the point of the post.
The point is that doubling the sensor strength of the ships won't hurt anything. PVE, PVP or otherwise.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.12.23 10:27:00 -
[19]
ôassuming you're making your conclusions based on PVE and not PVP? I'm talking only about PVP. And specifically, since we're comparing the Kronos vs. the Mega and Hype,ö That is correct I havenÆt flown the none Gallente ship and havenÆt really looked at them.
ôthink that it's a little silly to count that as a consistant factor in the ship design as far as what can be considered 'maximum consistant output'.ö But with 4 less turrets and 3 heatsyncs it can pretty much consistently run overheated when added with lvl 5 skill. Most battles are short so you can overheat your guns constantly with a Kronos. Overheat, then cooloff while waiting for next target. Then overheat again. In the PvP I do most battles are under 5 minuets if not under 2mins which overheating is perfect for.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.23 11:18:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Pottsey ôassuming you're making your conclusions based on PVE and not PVP? I'm talking only about PVP. And specifically, since we're comparing the Kronos vs. the Mega and Hype,ö That is correct I havenÆt flown the none Gallente ship and havenÆt really looked at them.
ôthink that it's a little silly to count that as a consistant factor in the ship design as far as what can be considered 'maximum consistant output'.ö But with 4 less turrets and 3 heatsyncs it can pretty much consistently run overheated when added with lvl 5 skill. Most battles are short so you can overheat your guns constantly with a Kronos. Overheat, then cooloff while waiting for next target. Then overheat again. In the PvP I do most battles are under 5 minuets if not under 2mins which overheating is perfect for.
With respect to overheating etc.- IMO I find that with thermo 5 I run out of HP in the modules after the first kill, *maybe* I have enough HP left to kill a second BS before I have to stop overheating for fear of offlining one of my guns. That works for a quick gank, but in most fights that I fight in, I have enough targets that I wouldn't be able to overheat my guns for the whole fight, or even most of the fight.
I end up slugging it out with some really heavily tanked ships, and can use up nearly 100% of my module HP on a single BS with my Kronos. I do think however that my situation is a little specialized, in that I don't have drone DPS to use against a target, as I'm always under sentry fire since no one will ever agress me, so that puts 100% of the burden on my guns to do the job, so it takes longer for me to take out a single target than it would if I had the use of my drone DPS.
The Kronos doesn't put out all that much damage really, when compared to max gank fit Neutron Blasterthrons, with their drones out. The good news is that more of it's DPS is in it's guns, but there are plenty of ships that can tank 1k DPS, or close enough to it to outlast my armor. Particularly when I have another 300+ DPS coming in from sentries, and I'm outnumbered 2-3 BS to 1. Overloading my guns just doesn't last. It's there for about 30 seconds or so and then that's it. Maybe a minute tops.
Overloading my rep is a bit better, as it's only one module, and that means I generate heat from the lows at a much lower rate than with the guns. Interesting sidenote: TS large rep, Marauders (or BS) 5 and a 20% Exile booster puts my HP/cycle on my rep (with two T1 aux nanopump rigs) at around 2040hp/cycle. Not too bad for a single rep. Too bad there isn't anything like that for GUNS.
That is a clear demonstration of how tanking far outdistances firepower these days. BS can easily tank 1k+ DPS with the right setups, and a single BS like the Kronos has no chance of ever breaking them, overloaded or not.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.12.23 11:50:00 -
[21]
ôWith respect to overheating etc.- IMO I find that with thermo 5 I run out of HP in the modules after the first kill, *maybe.ö Did you use heatsyncs to overload for longer?
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Polly Prissypantz
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Posted - 2007.12.23 12:57:00 -
[22]
Quote: Mission runners hate them. They whine about the cost. They whine that they don't clear missions out twice as fast as their current multi-billion ISK faction BS. They hate everything there is about Marauders. They can't stand 'em.
Since when did you become the spokesperson for the entire playerbase?
I don't recall every saying I dislike Marauders. In fact, I believe I've made a couple of posts now on why they (Golem specifically) are better than faction battleships for mission running, when working off ISK/Hour as opposed to OMG TEH DPS IS TEH SUXX0R.
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Polly Prissypantz
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Posted - 2007.12.23 13:07:00 -
[23]
OK, as Bellum has made clear a few times now... His gripe with Marauders is that they're not very good for PvP compared to existing ships.
Here's a newsflash:
Marauders were not made for PvP.
Once more for the road:
Marauders were not made for PvP.
Quote: So, IMO, we're both right. You're making perfectly valid points for PVE, and I concur with all of them, but I'm talking about increasing the sensor strength for PVP, and in that context, I think all my points are perfectly valid/correct.
No.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.23 21:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Pottsey ôWith respect to overheating etc.- IMO I find that with thermo 5 I run out of HP in the modules after the first kill, *maybe.ö Did you use heatsyncs to overload for longer?
Yes, but I'm firing at BS that can tank 800 DPS+, so it takes quite a while to chew through that. When you're the only damage dealer vs. a BS, they can take quite a few minutes to kill. And that's assuming that you don't run out of 800 charges/kill your cap off 100% anyway.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.23 21:39:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Polly Prissypantz OK, as Bellum has made clear a few times now... His gripe with Marauders is that they're not very good for PvP compared to existing ships.
Here's a newsflash:
Marauders were not made for PvP.
Once more for the road:
Marauders were not made for PvP.
Quote: So, IMO, we're both right. You're making perfectly valid points for PVE, and I concur with all of them, but I'm talking about increasing the sensor strength for PVP, and in that context, I think all my points are perfectly valid/correct.
No.
Hence, the title of my post 'reverse their roles'. It's crazy. I keep having to repeat this question to soooo many people: Are you obtuse, or just being an @sshole? Because if you're dumb and have the reading comprehension of a five year old, I can make accomodations for that. But if you're just ignoring what I'm saying and writing whatever as a response without any valid reason, then you're just being an @sshole.
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Grainsalt
Free Corp Liberty Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.23 22:07:00 -
[26]
After days and days and days of getting my corp m8's to analyse it for me..
CNR still for missions, and Golum as a salvager when I have knocked a few out ..
And that is very sad...
But the Golum should spank my Navy Issue Megathron as a pure salvager / tractor ship only ....
Yum...Maybe the Marauder class for Caldari should be renamed "Garbage Scow" class ... ---
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=554257
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.12.29 11:34:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Polly Prissypantz OK, as Bellum has made clear a few times now... His gripe with Marauders is that they're not very good for PvP compared to existing ships.
Here's a newsflash:
Marauders were not made for PvP.
Once more for the road:
Marauders were not made for PvP.
Quote: So, IMO, we're both right. You're making perfectly valid points for PVE, and I concur with all of them, but I'm talking about increasing the sensor strength for PVP, and in that context, I think all my points are perfectly valid/correct.
No.
Arn't blackops better for PVE?
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
wide
Gallente Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.12.29 22:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus I don't care if the Golem isn't performance/cost effective vs. the CNR. That's for PVE. I'm not discussing PVE. Never have been. So I'm wondering if *you* are also being dense, or are you just a jerk as well?
The Golem - CNR debate has nothing to do with buffing Marauder sensor strength a bit. For some reason everyone keeps coming in here and posting about completely random stuff, like the balance between Marauders or the effectiveness of Marauders vs. faction or regular BS, when that isn't the point of the post.
The point is that doubling the sensor strength of the ships won't hurt anything. PVE, PVP or otherwise.
I think the sensor strength weakness is a good trade off to avoid marauders becoming solo pwners. With all the high slots you have the option to fit smart bombs to clear ecm drones and if there are ew boats about, make sure you don't go out alone.
With regard to the Golem/CNR, you're picking and choosing your arguments and throwing abuse when it the facts don't suit you. Golem's and CNR's are flown in PVP so the argument still stands that with non-faction fittings, the Golem in inferior on a performance to cost ratio. |
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