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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.12.24 00:25:00 -
[181]
Edited by: d026 on 24/12/2007 00:25:51
Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer
Originally by: d026 so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:)
Again, if you think that all that is required to "fly a nanoship" is certain fittings and implants, then you have a completely skewed view of how this game works.
Do not pass go, do not collect 200 isk.
Seriously, take an AGONY PVP-BASIC course if all you think of combat is F1-F8. It will open your eyes, and you might even enjoy it if you allow yourself to.
omg! the magic of activating a mwd and clicking arround checking overview! you are so amazing.. l3333333333333t DUDE!
/edit had to correct l33t
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Corstaad
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.12.24 00:27:00 -
[182]
Every decent pvp game develops kiting and extending to combat blobs. If they nerf the hell out of nano ships its a huge step backwards for EvE.
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.24 00:28:00 -
[183]
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Rells The fact that you have to use tactics and strategy and the other guy will try to use it as well reinforces, not detracts, from my point. The game should NEVER boil down to allowing the incompetent to defeat the skilled.
so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:)
Clearly you have never fought AGONY.
We teach many of our tactics to students. If your idea of pvp is what you've expressed in this thread then the class could be beneficial to you.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.12.24 00:30:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Rells The fact that you have to use tactics and strategy and the other guy will try to use it as well reinforces, not detracts, from my point. The game should NEVER boil down to allowing the incompetent to defeat the skilled.
so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:)
Clearly you have never fought AGONY.
We teach many of our tactics to students. If your idea of pvp is what you've expressed in this thread then the class could be beneficial to you.
can i sign up with my alt?:)
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.24 00:35:00 -
[185]
Edited by: Rells on 24/12/2007 00:35:44
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Rells The fact that you have to use tactics and strategy and the other guy will try to use it as well reinforces, not detracts, from my point. The game should NEVER boil down to allowing the incompetent to defeat the skilled.
so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:)
Clearly you have never fought AGONY.
We teach many of our tactics to students. If your idea of pvp is what you've expressed in this thread then the class could be beneficial to you.
can i sign up with my alt?:)
For the class? Feel free. No one in the class joins AGONY so its no security risk at all.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.12.24 00:46:00 -
[186]
Rells you troll and make less sense than I do... let that sink in for a minute. Now make a point. You say there are ways to counter your ship speed. You are correct. Tell me how to kill it without a rapier / huginn / hyena?
Speed is fine on some ships. Dictors for eample.... get in drop bubble get out. No damage their and no tank to hold anything down. Now a vaga or ishtar, of which I fly both fyi. These ships exploit speed. They utilize it to be invulnerable. Now I will exploit this until they fix it. I have never felt safer in a ship than I do in a vaga. Nothing can catch me at 9-10k. Except maybe a ceptor that has to run in a straight line to get to me, in which case I kill it with my guns 8).
To be able to attack a ship without having to commit yourself is something people used to do with stabs 8). So since I am in the habit of not dying I will exploit the game as much as I can and use the unkillable ships. If I see a rapier / huginn. Ill disengage and warp off. As long as CCP is drunk and do not play the game, then Ill use this exploit to my advantage like any other smart pilot. I'll use it, but I hate it. Althoguh I really do love my Mach 8).
WildCat
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skipper johnson
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.12.24 00:48:00 -
[187]
A. For the people that say Eve is Not tactical..... are you even undocking? Or perhaps you're someone who doesn't think Eve is tactical, and then you probably also die an awful lot, and blame it on Eve being "unbalanced."
Let me put some tactics down for you...
One small example: Thorax trying to run a bob gatecamp - mwd fitted, but no wcs.. Warp to gate, jump through.. find dictor, inty, hac and stealth bomber on the other side... dictor bubbles up, and everyone attacks... In the Thorax, I MWD back to gate at 1000m/s taking a ton of dmg... and manage to jump through. They're agressed and have to wait. I re approach gate on the other side. Inty and dictor jump through, and start shooting me, followed by the hac and the bomber... I don't agress. Wait for them all to have agressed, jump back through and warp off because they can't follow me.
This is using game mechanics, my ships fittings, and TACTICS... HTF is this not tactical? In combat, pre-trinity, I have killed a Nano-Sabre using a dual webbed Heretic... using TACTICS... MWD, Heat, and a bit of planning and playing on the Sabre's overconfidence...
B. I do fly a dictor, and honestly, they're paper thin. The only thing they had going for them before was that they had a bit of speed to sometimes get away... my new fitting for a dictor is just 1 launcher and 1 bubble (don't need anything else, you're going to go pop as soon as someone sees you anyway)... and then when you find yourself in a new clone, refit and head back out to the battle...
C. I do NOT fly minmatarr...and will NOT be training to fly a Vagabond, and I say they're fine the way they are. I've even been chased by a Vagabond in my 6000m/s crusader... he was faster than me... and yes I've died to Vagabonds and Nanogang's quite a bit (Thanks Triumvirate :) and MDK), but I still think they're fine. There are counters to them, although somewhat difficult... I think my point D. will deal with them quite nicely actually.
D. Change Webifiers. Don't nerf speed mods! They're super expensive, and they are NOT an I win button. Give a skill based range factor to webs with an inverse factor of web strength. Hell, even make scripts to increase range with a penalty to web strength. ie. Web is 80% effective at 10km, but only 50% at 15km, and 30% at 25km...
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.24 00:49:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Corstaad Every decent pvp game develops kiting and extending to combat blobs. If they nerf the hell out of nano ships its a huge step backwards for EvE.
In this case the cure is worse than the disease, there's more than one kind of combat in EVE.
In addition while kiting is a game enhancing tactic in many MMOs it is usually coupled with an array of root type abilities that are not restricted to slapping range.
Typical "kiting classes" certainly don't get the bonus of zipping around at dozens of times the speed of others, with no intercept or teleport abilities in game, and a single root ability limited to the equivalent of touch range. Nor do they gain massive damage reduction provided through tracking, drone speed, and missile velocity.
Did I mention the EVE equivalent of bubble hearth.
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Jaabaa Prime
Minmatar Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2007.12.24 00:51:00 -
[189]
I have to admit, that the interdictor pilot's life expectancy is already extremely limited, nerfing them any more would be insane. Its not like they have awesome tanks.
I have to agree with the OP, Zulupark has to fly that role on TQ, jumping/warping into a hostile fleet to almost certain death, not just the "play PvP" on Sisi. --
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Malachi Greys
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Posted - 2007.12.24 00:52:00 -
[190]
Just give low slot speed mods a grid requirement. You can go as fast as you like, but you better be prepared to do naff all damage.
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Cthulhu Destroyer
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.24 01:01:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Malachi Greys Just give low slot speed mods a grid requirement. You can go as fast as you like, but you better be prepared to do naff all damage.
If you have the skills to fly say... a Vagabond, please go onto Sisi and fit a Vaga and then try MWDing around a cruiser/battlecruiser/battleship while shooting at it.
Let me know how much damage you do.
Or save yourself the time and let me tell you that you do no appreciable damage while zipping around. Let alone that fact that you cannot indefinitely run your MWD, especially if someone has a NOS/Neut on you.
Speed fit ships already sacrifice tank and damage to attain high speed. In return, they have the ability to avoid more encounters than a heavily tanked ship, if they so choose. No ship in this game is invulnerable, or undestroyable, you simply need to think tactically and lure him into a trap, or bring in a sniper or two, or any one of a dozen options you can either chase him off or kill him with.
It's not rocket science (no pun intended).
It does require a bit of thought.
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Cthulhu Destroyer
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.24 01:04:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Nor do they gain massive damage reduction provided through tracking, drone speed, and missile velocity
Does it really need to be said that tracking works both ways? Try MWDing around something roughly your size and shooting at it. You'll miss. A lot.
To deal out anything approaching decent damage, you need to slow down... and then missiles and drones and whatnot come back into play.
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Lazuran
Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2007.12.24 01:38:00 -
[193]
Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 24/12/2007 00:10:40
Originally by: Lazuran
Originally by: Igetshotalot
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Nano-ships are a counter to blobs. One of the few remaining ways that a group of 20 skilled pilots can engage and cause casualties against a group of 100.
and unfortunately the counter to only 1 nanoship is THE BLOB!
That's not true and you know it. The nanoship will disengage if any of a multitude of countermeasures is used, whether it's on 1 ship or on several:
* strong tank (nanoships don't do much damage ... a vaga can't even kill a good drake) * ECM * huginn/rapier/curse * 25Km neutralizers * even light drones with very good skills work together with a decent tank
Those who blob a single nanoship would also blob a single *any other ship* ...
25k neuts only on bs. rest does not kill nanofit.. so i still need other people to nail down a single nanofit. to kill a nanofit i need to blob it..
If it is fast enough to get away from you, you need to blob it as much as you need to blob a ship that can tank well enough for 1 enemy.
It's unbelievable how narrow-minded some people are.
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois. |
Madboy
Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.12.24 01:41:00 -
[194]
Nerfs, nerfs and more nerfs.
Don't worry Zulu. I say let's keep nerfing. At this rate, everything should suck equally, in a matter of no time! Then everyone will have something to bit ch at!
Woot!! Go Zulu!! Swing that bat!! - MadBoy
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7shining7one7
Quafe Paladins
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Posted - 2007.12.24 02:18:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme Save your breath Jakus, no one in authority is going to take this thread seriously, the only people whining in it are the ones that only come to the forums to whine
The usual suspects are just kept around to feed me, not to be taken seriously
you lost your marbles..
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boogabugu
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Posted - 2007.12.24 02:23:00 -
[196]
Holy crap. How could someone be dumb enough to change interdictors in that way and still be able to participate in a live blog? http://www.voogru.com/images/signature/farmers.jpg |
Cracoc
Kazoo Corporation
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Posted - 2007.12.24 03:08:00 -
[197]
In my opinion, i honestly think that CCP are turning this game more and more into WoW.
They want to make the game more simpler to keep newer players, and attract new and younger players to the game. Average lifespan of an Eve player is 7months (Prof Econ QEN). What better way to keep those 7mth old players is to make the game more simpler for them to play by nerfing. The older player just gets new stuff to play with, to compensate their skills training time and then their new toys are nerfed somewhere 6-12months down the road to make it easier for the newer player to kill.
CCP are out to balance the players of Eve, not the ships or modules.
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Herring
Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.12.24 03:11:00 -
[198]
Gotta wonder where this nerf is coming from...is it from the whine crowd? Is it from a report that gamewide dictor destruction is down 40% from last year?
Could it be from someone that actually played in 0.0 and flew these ships?
I think NOT.
CCP - please stop with the nerfing and boost something already. |
Awox
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.12.24 03:12:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Rells The fact that you have to use tactics and strategy and the other guy will try to use it as well reinforces, not detracts, from my point. The game should NEVER boil down to allowing the incompetent to defeat the skilled.
so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:)
Clearly you have never fought AGONY.
We teach many of our tactics to students. If your idea of pvp is what you've expressed in this thread then the class could be beneficial to you.
I led an INFOD + mixed battleship gang to BWF one time, an AGONY gang came and attacked us, even though they almost out-numbered us 2:1 it was just a bloodpath.
AGONY utilized no tactics with their EW compliment warping straight to the gate, it was NOM NOM NOM and I had to stop calling targets because you all died so fast. I said fire at will and one guy managed to rack up 11 killmails! :D
So yeah, stop chest beating about your "tactics". I thought you were posting about dictors, but now you've made it a nanof4g thing. The stupidly fast poly HACs are the reason CCP make these stupid nerfs in the first place. ===== |
Awox
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.12.24 03:14:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Cracoc In my opinion, i honestly think that CCP are turning this game more and more into WoW.
They want to make the game more simpler to keep newer players, and attract new and younger players to the game. Average lifespan of an Eve player is 7months (Prof Econ QEN). What better way to keep those 7mth old players is to make the game more simpler for them to play by nerfing. The older player just gets new stuff to play with, to compensate their skills training time and then their new toys are nerfed somewhere 6-12months down the road to make it easier for the newer player to kill.
CCP are out to balance the players of Eve, not the ships or modules.
I agree with this. CCP are dumbing down their game to attract the masses. CCP don't want a cold, harsh universe, they want cold, hard cash. ===== |
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.24 04:27:00 -
[201]
Zulupark is the only dev that has NO CLUE ABOUT THE GAME he is working with. He is wrong on carriers, he is wrong on nano, he is wrong on everything he blogs about. Probably played WoW before this as he sounds just like the whiners and nerf callers do. he is epic fail in every catagory
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Hannobaal
Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.24 04:46:00 -
[202]
Quote: Personally and what were kinda discussing is stacking of speed mods
Can someone please explain to me what this means. Don't all speed mods, and rigs, already have stacking penalties?
Also, I generally (from what I've seen in the year or so I've been playing) have a lot of faith in CCP and its dev team in general to make good, intelligent design and balance decisions. But this one person, Zulupark, I have now seen so many quotes from him on game balance issues that are so off-the wall just plain wrong and so clueless about how this game works that it's mindboggling. I just don't understand how this person could have been allowed anywhere near the position he holds in CCP.
You can't have someone so obviously clueless about how this game works being allowed a say at all on game balancing issues.
Fire this guy and go back to making good decisions like you (until very recently) used to do.
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Optique
Sixth Degree Communications
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Posted - 2007.12.24 04:59:00 -
[203]
Edited by: Optique on 24/12/2007 04:59:36 You know what's really sad about this situation?
That I'm no longer surprised when I see these tepid whine threads.
If only you could some how harness this whiny nerd-rage into actual constructive criticism not laced with insults, maybe this computer game you're getting so angry about might be more to your liking.
But hey! What's more satisfying to bark like a donkey on the forums and then whine and complain to your friends about how none of the developers listened to you.
Keep braying, guys. I'll be over here playing a game.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.24 05:05:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Optique I'll be over here playing a game.
Not once it is ruined.
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Optique
Sixth Degree Communications
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Posted - 2007.12.24 05:17:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Optique I'll be over here playing a game.
Not once it is ruined.
If I had a nickel for every time a game change made a group of sheep type "/signed" on the forums in angry complaint about how it will "ruin" the game, well then I'd be very very rich.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.24 05:21:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Optique
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: Optique I'll be over here playing a game.
Not once it is ruined.
If I had a nickel for every time a game change made a group of sheep type "/signed" on the forums in angry complaint about how it will "ruin" the game, well then I'd be very very rich.
It's not about a particular change or other. Trust me, I'm normally part of the anti-whine brigade on these forums.
It's about a long series of statements this person has made that shows clearly that he doesn't know the first thing about how this game works coupled with the fact that he has a say in decisions on major changes to this game. It doesn't matter what the changes are. It could be anything. Having someone like him working on balancing issues, at all, is scary to anyone who enjoys this game.
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Dirk Magnum
FinFleet Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.12.24 05:46:00 -
[207]
******* Albion gets their ******* mez spells that don't cancel once the target gets attacked oh come the **** on Mythic, you ******* suck.
oh wait
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.24 05:48:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Quote: Personally and what were kinda discussing is stacking of speed mods
Can someone please explain to me what this means. Don't all speed mods, and rigs, already have stacking penalties?
Some do, some dont.
Implants have no penalties.
Gang mods have no penalties.
Mass modifications and velocity bonuses being seperate mods are not panalized agianst each other.
Imagine for a minute that there were two types of damage mod. One increased damage only and one increaed RoF only.
Imagine also that they were individually as strong as the double mods we have now, 23% dmg and 19% rof[for the first mod.]
Well currently this produces an Armageddon with about 1174 dps with 3 damage mods.
After such a change 3 damage mods would produce a Geddon that did 1261 dps. Not much of a change. But the Geddon would be able to fit 4 damage mods for 1448 dps. And 5 damage mods for 1597 dps, and 6 damage mods for 1794 dps
Now, this isnt old gank-a-geddon style, but it exemplifys the problem of two attributes boosting the same property of a ship.
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.12.24 06:03:00 -
[209]
Originally by: DHB WildCat You say there are ways to counter your ship speed. You are correct. Tell me how to kill it without a rapier / huginn / hyena?
Answer: another speed ship. Vaga vs Vaga. Nanoship vs nanoship.
Originally by: DHB WildCat Speed is fine on some ships. Dictors for eample.... get in drop bubble get out. No damage their and no tank to hold anything down. Now a vaga or ishtar, of which I fly both fyi. These ships exploit speed. They utilize it to be invulnerable. Now I will exploit this until they fix it. I have never felt safer in a ship than I do in a vaga. Nothing can catch me at 9-10k. Except maybe a ceptor that has to run in a straight line to get to me, in which case I kill it with my guns 8).
9-10k speeds cannot be achieved without insvesting several billion isk into your ship and pod. While you may have 10:1 kill ratio, the cost of that 1 death may still be greater than all the kills you made combined.
I notice some people argue against speed ships from point of view that high speed is unnatural. But what if it's all the tank and gank setups that are unnatural? why shouldn't speed ships be the mainstream of all pvp? why are so many people using slow ships? lets nerf slow ships so they are much less effective in pvp and boost speed, so more people enjoy that style of combat. Certainly it is more fun than slow combat, and people can last longer with speed ships, doesn't CCP want to pro-long combat duration and have people not die as much?
Speed ship pvp can be mainstream.
Originally by: DHB WildCat To be able to attack a ship without having to commit yourself is something people used to do with stabs 8). So since I am in the habit of not dying I will exploit the game as much as I can and use the unkillable ships. If I see a rapier / huginn. Ill disengage and warp off. As long as CCP is drunk and do not play the game, then Ill use this exploit to my advantage like any other smart pilot. I'll use it, but I hate it. Althoguh I really do love my Mach 8).
WildCat
I am pretty sure that speed ships die nearly as often as slow ships, especially if you think in terms of isk lost per ship. I would strongly encourage CCP to look up statistics on all ships killed and compare the numbers by ship class, ship race, and speed mod fitted ships vs other ships.
That data would be quite interesting. Without it, we cannot make firm statements on invulnerability status of specific setups.
From personal experience, all ships die, no matter how good they are. There is no true invulnerability. But some ships/pilots are always better than others.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.12.24 06:05:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Goumindong on 24/12/2007 06:05:25
Originally by: Ephemeron I am pretty sure that speed ships die nearly as often as slow ships, especially if you think in terms of isk lost per ship
I am 100% sure this is false.
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