Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Culitza
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 00:23:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Culitza on 25/12/2007 00:28:26 There are some t2 frigs out there that can perform rather well in small and large-scale engagements also. Wolf/Jag Vengeance and harpy ( blaster and rails ). Why doesnt anyone use them anymore *cry* ??
Dont give me the usual B.S. that t1 cruisers outperform them because that's crap. They have way more survivability than t1 cruisers and are faster and more agile. The only thing the t1 cruisers outperform them in is gank.
CCP should show them some love in the next patch and revise their bonuses so they would make them all useful and swap some bonuses on the current ones for better gank/survivability. Like minmatar ones should get more speed instead of falloff ( lets be honest who snipes in a frig except the harpy ).
P.S. they're the sexiest ships in eve, they should also perform as such :P
|
Sexy Biatch
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 00:24:00 -
[2]
fantastic......
|
Acinonyx Jubatus
Minmatar International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 00:25:00 -
[3]
They're removing them?
|
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 01:10:00 -
[4]
I'd settle for the Wolf and Jag getting their falloff/optimal bonuses switched and adding the "Missing Fourth Bonus".
Also, lower the freaking mass on the things on the things FFS, they're not cruisers.
-Liang -- Gain Forum Fame Now! Want To Trade Liang Nuren For Your Character!
Post in the thread or send me an Evemail. ^_ |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 01:13:00 -
[5]
BOOST PATCH.
Yeah, but I really doubt ccp will even glance at them. Boost patch has so many things that need addressing Im afraid AFs wont fit in it. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 01:15:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer BOOST PATCH.
Yeah, but I really doubt ccp will even glance at them. Boost patch has so many things that need addressing Im afraid AFs wont fit in it.
Well at least they have an idea about AF's... Amarr, however, definitely won't make it in.
-Liang -- Gain Forum Fame Now! Want To Trade Liang Nuren For Your Character!
Post in the thread or send me an Evemail. ^_ |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 01:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer BOOST PATCH.
Yeah, but I really doubt ccp will even glance at them. Boost patch has so many things that need addressing Im afraid AFs wont fit in it.
Well at least they have an idea about AF's... Amarr, however, definitely won't make it in.
-Liang
Thats why I look forward to all the nerfs instead .
Well on serious note: What ccp said about amarr in the audio blog is that "We dont think the race is broken, we are just gonna duct tape maller and apoc so live with it."
Basically they are either oblivious about the laser cap bonus issue (and many of the related problems) or simply ignore it because its much harder to fix a race from the core. Easier to duct tape. Sigh ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 01:29:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Thats why I look forward to all the nerfs instead
Le sigh. One of those S&M peeps eh. ;-)
Quote: Well on serious note: What ccp said about amarr in the audio blog is that "We dont think the race is broken, we are just gonna duct tape maller and apoc so live with it."
Basically they are either oblivious about the laser cap bonus issue (and many of the related problems) or simply ignore it because its much harder to fix a race from the core. Easier to duct tape. Sigh
Well, the problem is that you effectively "don't have ammo" (T1) - so your guns have to take "more cap" to make up for "no ammo".
IMO, make all cystals degrade (as T2 or faction) and cut cap use to some reasonable level. ;-)
Well, at least as far as "make it look like everyone else" anyway.
-Liang -- Gain Forum Fame Now! Want To Trade Liang Nuren For Your Character!
Post in the thread or send me an Evemail. ^_ |
Merin Ryskin
FinFleet Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 02:31:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 25/12/2007 02:34:47
Originally by: Culitza Wolf/Jag
Slower, less damaging version of the Rupture and Stabber.
Quote: Vengeance
Absolute trash with short range, terrible dps, and a mediocre tank.
Quote: and harpy ( blaster and rails )
Decent sniper, but the Cormorant does the same job for cheaper. Also, most (Caldari) anti-support snipers fly Eagles or Vultures, which completely outclass the Harpy in every way.
Quote: Dont give me the usual B.S. that t1 cruisers outperform them because that's crap.
No, it's entirely true. T1 cruisers do the same job for less ISK.
Quote: They have way more survivability than t1 cruisers
No they don't. They have higher base resistances, but that is more than compensated for by the T1 cruiser's ability to use medium shield/armor reps, fit bigger plates/extenders, and higher base HP. The signiature radius factor is pretty much irrelevant, as with a MWD an AF's signiature is large enough to hit it just fine.
Quote: and are faster
Assault frigates are slower than T1 cruisers.
Quote: and more agile.
By a trivial margin that has no real effect on their combat ability.
Quote: The only thing the t1 cruisers outperform them in is gank.
If by "only", you mean "one of many things".
The cruiser has:
1) Better tank. 2) Better dps. 3) Drones that rip frigates to shreds. 4) Equal or better MWD speed. 5) Sufficient tracking to easily hit the AF when it is forced into web range to do any damage. 6) Cheaper cost + full insurance. 7) Better cap, grid and cpu to run support modules like active hardeners, 24km scrams, etc.
The AF has:
1) Faster lock speed.
Any questions?
|
Gawain Hill
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 02:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Culitza Edited by: Culitza on 25/12/2007 00:28:26 There are some t2 frigs out there that can perform rather well in small and large-scale engagements also. Wolf/Jag Vengeance and harpy ( blaster and rails ). Why doesnt anyone use them anymore *cry* ??
Dont give me the usual B.S. that t1 cruisers outperform them because that's crap. They have way more survivability than t1 cruisers and are faster and more agile. The only thing the t1 cruisers outperform them in is gank.
CCP should show them some love in the next patch and revise their bonuses so they would make them all useful and swap some bonuses on the current ones for better gank/survivability. Like minmatar ones should get more speed instead of falloff ( lets be honest who snipes in a frig except the harpy ).
P.S. they're the sexiest ships in eve, they should also perform as such :P
see live dev blog
|
|
Noisrevbus
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 03:38:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
6) Cheaper cost + full insurance.
Any questions?
Yes this. Sorry if im running a bit off topic here, but since you raised the question...
I have been scratching my head a bit lately, why do tech two ships not have the full insurance? Is the added market cost for time spent with rare material and construction not added into the base value? Overall there are many good Tech II ships and there's absolutely no reason for boycotting most of them, but for the somewhat lacking concepts, that lower refund value often tend to be much of the lynchpin in the lynching of the ship.
I've always wondered what the intent was behind making them less appealing by cost this way. I must have missed something obvious - can someone set me straight?
|
Merin Ryskin
FinFleet Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 03:59:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 25/12/2007 04:01:13
Originally by: Noisrevbus
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
6) Cheaper cost + full insurance.
Any questions?
Yes this. Sorry if im running a bit off topic here, but since you raised the question...
I have been scratching my head a bit lately, why do tech two ships not have the full insurance? Is the added market cost for time spent with rare material and construction not added into the base value? Overall there are many good Tech II ships and there's absolutely no reason for boycotting most of them, but for the somewhat lacking concepts, that lower refund value often tend to be much of the lynchpin in the lynching of the ship.
I've always wondered what the intent was behind making them less appealing by cost this way. I must have missed something obvious - can someone set me straight?
Simple:
All ships have insurance payouts based on their component costs. In the case of T1 ships, having an unlimited supply of the BPOs available as NPC items added to no T2 component supply chain means there are a lot of producers and lots of competition. As a result, prices are driven down, and profit margins are small. T1 ships sell for fairly close to their component price, as a result, full insurance pays out essentialy the entire price of the ship.
T2 ships, on the other hand, operate on a different system. Invention severly limits the number of BPCs available, and the need to mine T2 minerals and build T2 components makes it far more difficult for any random person to get into the industry. Since demand is high and supply is limited, the producers are able to set their prices well above the component price. Since insurance is tied to component prices and not the final sale price, the maximum insurance payout falls well short of what you actually paid for the ship.
So essentially the difference is the producer's profit. Insurance does not cover it period, the only difference is T1 profits are a much smaller percentage of the sale price than T2 profits. Of course it's worse with some ships than with others, and getting better post-invention. My Vulture, for example, costs around 80-90 million on the market, and insures for 57 million. Assault frigates, on the other hand, typically sell for far enough above their insurance payout that the T1 cruiser is more cost-effective.
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 06:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Le sigh. One of those S&M peeps eh. ;-)
You dont know how close you are to the truth now ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 09:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Culitza
Dont give me the usual B.S. that t1 cruisers outperform them because that's crap. They have way more survivability than t1 cruisers
No they don't. T1 cruisers have way way more meat on them.
Originally by: Culitza
and are faster and more agile.
Faster? Not by much; MWD speeds of AFs and MWD speeds of cruisers are very close (with cruisers occasionally being better). Agility of cruisers is very close to AF agility (which is typically in between destroyers and cruisers).
Originally by: Culitza
The only thing the t1 cruisers outperform them in is gank.
T1 cruisers have: - way more buffer (hence survivability) - way more damage - comparable speed except the Jaguar (although it's comparable to the Stabber) - are cheaper or matching loss cost; T2 fit cruisers typically cost as much as T2 fit AFs to lose.
Originally by: Culitza
Like minmatar ones should get more speed instead of falloff
The wolf needs its falloff bonus with lack of web to make it hit all the way up to webrange if AC fitted. What would be nice is switching bonuses on the Wolf and Jaguar so the Jaguar gets falloff and Wolf optimal.
Originally by: Culitza
P.S. they're the sexiest ships in eve, they should also perform as such :P
Yes, they need the love. However, NO, they do not preform nearly as well as you think right now.
Rifters!
|
Lewis Breaker
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 10:08:00 -
[15]
I am currently really enjoying 0.0 ratting in an Ishkur, I think AF's have their place in Eve, its just not pvp or mission running. I have killed so many NPC battleships in my AF.
They cant hit me because of my low sig and there weapons cant track me because I orbit them to quickly. If someone trys to gank me I can warp out quicker than a cruiser.
I guess you could PVP in an AF but you just need to hunt the right targets. frigs, noobs cruisers and mining Barges.
So I guess it just comes down to the right tools for the right job. I also think gang squads are less likely to go after an AF, but if I was doing the same thing in BC or anything bigger I would be a prime target.
I must say Ishkur is my fav ship to fly at the moment.
|
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 10:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lewis Breaker I am currently really enjoying 0.0 ratting in an Ishkur, I think AF's have their place in Eve, its just not pvp or mission running. I have killed so many NPC battleships in my AF.
They cant hit me because of my low sig and there weapons cant track me because I orbit them to quickly. If someone trys to gank me I can warp out quicker than a cruiser.
I guess you could PVP in an AF but you just need to hunt the right targets. frigs, noobs cruisers and mining Barges.
So I guess it just comes down to the right tools for the right job. I also think gang squads are less likely to go after an AF, but if I was doing the same thing in BC or anything bigger I would be a prime target.
I must say Ishkur is my fav ship to fly at the moment.
Ishtar.
1. More DPS (faster kills, more ISK/hr) 2. More Tank (Faster kills, more ISK/hr) 3. More Cargo Space (More Lootz before the return trip to Empire) 4. Cloak in the highs (No more problems with wandering gank squads than you have now) 5. ... 6. Profit?
-Liang -- Gain Forum Fame Now! Want To Trade Liang Nuren For Your Character!
Post in the thread or send me an Evemail. ^_ |
Lewis Breaker
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 11:25:00 -
[17]
cant fly ishtar yet :P
|
arbalesttom
Caldari Glauxian Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 12:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Culitza
Dont give me the usual B.S. that t1 cruisers outperform them because that's crap. They have way more survivability than t1 cruisers
No they don't. T1 cruisers have way way more meat on them. .
Afs have way better resists, smaller sig radius and moar speed (and the hp isnt bad either). Imho the meat on a af versus the meat on cruiser is pretty much 'balanced towards each other', but in a different way. Nice hamster! - Mindstar Thanks! We wont touch this sig! - Cortes I lied - Cortes LIAR! |
Merin Ryskin
FinFleet Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 18:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: arbalesttom Afs have way better resists
Irrelevant. AFs have two resists higher than T1 cruisers, but this is more than compensated for by the fact that medium armor/shield reps give double the output of small reps. The actual dps tanked is roughly the same on the two boosted resists, and far higher for the cruiser on the other two resists.
Also, cruisers have more slots and more grid/cpu to fit tank modules. An EANM or invulnerability field is often impossible to fit on an AF, but easy to fit on a cruiser, giving the cruiser better resists in the end.
Quote: smaller sig radius
Irrelevant. With a MWD (and they need it, otherwise they die even faster), AFs have a high enough signature radius for cruiser weapons to hit just fine.
Quote: and moar speed
Entirely wrong. AFs have better base speed, but much higher mass to MWD thrust ratio. This means AFs get a severely reduced speed boost from MWDs, and end up being slower than T1 cruisers.
Quote: Imho the meat on a af versus the meat on cruiser is pretty much 'balanced towards each other', but in a different way.
It's not at all balanced. AFs are inferior to cruisers in pretty much every way. Their tank isn't that far behind, but on a slow expensive ship with lower dps, "almost as good" isn't enough.
|
Lisento Slaven
Amarr Lisento and Miscellaneous Elk
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 19:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Ishtar.
1. More DPS (faster kills, more ISK/hr) 2. More Tank (Faster kills, more ISK/hr) 3. More Cargo Space (More Lootz before the return trip to Empire) 4. Cloak in the highs (No more problems with wandering gank squads than you have now) 5. ... 6. Profit?
-Liang
Much LARGER investment should be on your list.
My ghetto fit Retribution cost me less than 20 mil and can take out 1.5 mil Sansha BS in 100% hostile space. Gate camps are no worry to me. If I lose my ship, my pocket book does not suffer. If you rat in any ship and are required to go through gate camps (with possible huginn's and rapiers and other nasty speed+web ships) you will not have fun ratting in an ishtar or anything expensive. Especially solo with no scout and just the map to tell you what's going on in the area.
Just thought I should point out the investment ratio especially when ratting in entirely hostile space with no support (solo) =P
In safe space I just rat in a raven. But I can't do that anymore =( ---
Put in space whales!
|
|
Skavenger
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 21:54:00 -
[21]
AFs are getting the role bonus of immune to webs
...or did you not hear that before you started whining?
double or: or am i hearing things again?
|
Hannobaal
Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.12.25 22:20:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin With a MWD (and they need it, otherwise they die even faster), AFs have a high enough signature radius for cruiser weapons to hit just fine.
Which is compensated for with speed.
A cruiser will also be using an mwd for the most part. The Assault Ships' sig radius with mwd on is much smaller than a cruiser's sig radius is with mwd on. Hence, an assault ship is much more difficult for turrets to track than a cruiser is regardless.
A lower sig radius always means the ship is more difficult to track (even if the sig radius is larger than the gun's sig resolution). And a larger sig radius always means the ship is easier to track for gun turrets.
|
Dreadpilot Roberts
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.12.26 01:09:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Skavenger AFs are getting the role bonus of immune to webs
...or did you not hear that before you started whining?
double or: or am i hearing things again?
All I needed to know. That seems a decent boost to AFs and I expect to see a lot of ppl flying them after the buff.
To the BOB troll .... this is not a thread about your ubar t1 cruiser fittings active tank to kill rats in low sec or lvl2 missions. It's about pvp fits with passive tanks ... uhm yeah stabbers outperform every AF except for tracking ... but that will change after the boost I guess. tyvm, I am enlightened now YAY
I'm sorry, did I say u could speak ? |
Skavenger
|
Posted - 2007.12.26 01:26:00 -
[24]
like i said i might have been hearing things again im not sure if its true or not, mighta just read it as an idea form another forum
|
Flurren
|
Posted - 2007.12.26 05:32:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Flurren on 26/12/2007 05:33:17 Can we just get a buff to these damn things already? Its been asked for and picked through enough times. It really just needs actually doing now, the ideas are already there.
On a side note id like a change to the t2 minnie armor tankers resists. Its completely unfair how lopsided they are (dont tell me i should be exclusively hunting amarr please, its a ridiculously weak arguement). Just change them to explosive and thermal and ill be happy or explosive and kinetic the opposite way round to amarr or anything that doesnt involve EM please. We do not need the current t2 boost to what is already the highest base t1 armor resist in the game. The reasoning could easily be that these ships were designed to hunt down matari traitors still serving the amarr.
|
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2007.12.26 05:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Flurren Edited by: Flurren on 26/12/2007 05:33:17 Can we just get a buff to these damn things already? Its been asked for and picked through enough times. It really just needs actually doing now, the ideas are already there.
On a side note id like a change to the t2 minnie armor tankers resists. Its completely unfair how lopsided they are (dont tell me i should be exclusively hunting amarr please, its a ridiculously weak arguement). Just change them to explosive and thermal and ill be happy or explosive and kinetic the opposite way round to amarr or anything that doesnt involve EM please. We do not need the current t2 boost to what is already the highest base t1 armor resist in the game. The reasoning could easily be that these ships were designed to hunt down matari traitors still serving the amarr.
But ccp likes to sit down and make new ship models that take months to make instead of sitting down and changing a few numbers/role of AFs wich would take a day or two tbfh. ---------------------------------------------
[Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice |
Khanid Kutie
I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp
|
Posted - 2007.12.26 08:05:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
By a trivial margin that has no real effect on their combat ability.
Quote: The only thing the t1 cruisers outperform them in is gank.
If by "only", you mean "one of many things".
The cruiser has:
1) Better tank. 2) Better dps. 3) Drones that rip frigates to shreds. 4) Equal or better MWD speed. 5) Sufficient tracking to easily hit the AF when it is forced into web range to do any damage. 6) Cheaper cost + full insurance. 7) Better cap, grid and cpu to run support modules like active hardeners, 24km scrams, etc.
The AF has:
1) Faster lock speed.
Any questions?
couldnt agree more...you win the ships and mods forum for the year
|
Khanid Kutie
I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp
|
Posted - 2007.12.26 08:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Skavenger AFs are getting the role bonus of immune to webs
...or did you not hear that before you started whining?
double or: or am i hearing things again?
immune to webs? is that a joke? theyre not going FAST enough to make a difference.
|
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.12.26 08:07:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Skavenger AFs are getting the role bonus of immune to webs
...or did you not hear that before you started whining?
double or: or am i hearing things again?
You're hearing things? I didn't hear that confirmed in the live dev blog, and I don't see a dev blog detailing it. I also don't see people crowing about it in game dev... nor is Ships and Modules exploding with Christmas Cheer.
-Liang -- Gain Forum Fame Now! Want To Trade Liang Nuren For Your Character!
Post in the thread or send me an Evemail. ^_ |
Jackal79
|
Posted - 2007.12.26 08:24:00 -
[30]
It seems some ppl have misconceptions about assault frigates...
I fly a retribution and I can assure you, assault frigates have WAY more survivability than T1 cruisers. They have a 35m sig radius (I don't fit a MWD on my retri - sig radius is always 35m), and they have mad resists. T1 cruisers may have more hit points, but they are much easier to kill.
For anti support (killing interceptors, dictors, etc) the only thing I know of that comes close to a beam laser retribution is the coercer (more DPS on the targets, but is paper thin). With beam lasers you can kill an interceptor within 40km in seconds.
Flying a pulse laser retribution in small gangs is extremely fun. It will do over 200 dps. If a frigate or dictor gets too close to you it will die before it can warp out. The retribution is basically a mini-zealot and it is totally freaking awesome. If it recieved a boost it would be way too powerful.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |