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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.01 10:46:00 -
[1]
Over the last couple of days, Abbess KorAzor and I have engaged in discussions on The Summit channel. During these, she's expressed certain concerns and reservations about my predictions, and about my idea of a solution to the problems which face us. Her concerns may echo those of many, and so I'll respond to them here. Hopefully, they may be of use.
For anyone unclear on the topic at hand, my prior writings may be found below.
The Pilot's Path
Identity
The Shadow and the Crown
Exodus
Abbess, the concerns you've expressed, as I understand them, are, firstly, that our departure will take only the best of capsuleerdom, leaving humanity to face the worst of our kind; second, that as not all cloned entities ("transhumans" is the word you favor, "infomorphs" is my word of preference, as it's a little more specific to our particular situation) are capsuleers, and that even if I am correct, our departure will not only leave the situation partially intact, but leave the potential for it to spread once more among the cluster's rich and powerful; thirdly, that if I am not correct, and there is some solution to the approaching threat, the project will move us away from solving it, rather than towards that solution. The fourth is that mine is merely an ideology for, as you put it, a bunch of separatists. Exactly what question this begs was lost; the transcription is incomplete. Perhaps you'd be willing to provide it, as I don't wish to presume to tell you your thoughts.
I'll answer these concerns as best I'm able, in the order in which you've presented them. First, then: I greatly doubt that my message will prove persuasive to what you would consider the best of our kind, Abbess. Such beings tend to be deeply wrapped up in human concerns, from the intense loyalty shown by Electus Matari and other Matari fighters, to the profound spirituality of many Amarr, to the very human beliefs and interests of many Gallente and Caldari capsuleers. Those who see themselves as human are relatively unlikely to follow us.
While the best (by your measure) are unlikely to follow, so too are those who believe they should rule humanity. Those among the "worst" who see that they cannot win against humanity as a whole will follow; those who do not, will remain.
You seem to feel that I do this out of a certain kind of idealism, that I wish to leave because I feel that we do too much harm. The opposite is more nearly true: I wish to protect humanity, yes, but of greater concern to me is the survival of our kind. If those who join the exodus are those most aware of their natures, most keenly attuned to what it is to be a capsuleer (exactly what this means is a work in progress even more than it is for humans), I will be delighted-- and I will thereby have at least a sizable percentage of your "worst."
As for the rest ... I don't consider humanity some helpless mass of innocents waiting for us to defend them. Humankind is well capable of defending itself, and will do so with ingenuity and imagination I doubt either you or I can properly anticipate. Humanity has spent millennia as an apex predator. It is not going to roll over and let itself be conquered by a pack of fool capsuleers who tend to disregard anything smaller than a ship as unworthy of notice.
That being the case, if the backlash comes (and perhaps those closer to humanity who remain behind can stop it), all who remain will probably be killed, or, at best, placed under restraints roughly equivalent to slavery.
Those who remain close to humanity may feel they deserve better; I might agree, but, I'm sorry, this is the best end I can see.
[cont'd]
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.01 11:19:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 01/01/2008 11:25:53
To answer your second concern: please note that I have neither the means to stop the backlash, nor, frankly, the intention to try; I leave that to beings who can still feel they are a part of the human community.
If the backlash occurs, your concern will be well-answered. I should say ahead of time that I have no information as to whether capsuleer dementia is inherent to all infomorphs, or only to capsuleers.
I greatly doubt that it will matter to humanity as a whole, however. Socio-political backlash has a nasty tendency towards overreaction, which is why I frankly expect any capsuleer who stays behind to be dead in short order. As cloning is the most obvious distinction between us and humanity, the cluster's human population will focus on that; infomorph national leaders or wealthy persons probably won't survive any better than we will. In the aftermath, I don't imagine anyone will be tinkering with cloning technology for at least a few generations-- a short enough time, but long enough that I'd have to consider the problem as solved at that point as it's ever likely to be.
Your third criticism, that we may be running away from a solution, rather than laboring to produce one, and may even be making a solution more difficult (or even impossible) by so doing, has some truth to it. Or, I should say, potential truth-- I wouldn't be doing this if I could see another means of survival that I believed would work.
I look around me, and what I see is death. The only capsuleer career path that I can even think of that isn't wrapped up in warfare is that of the trader. It may be thought that this is a moral criticism-- and if it were coming from a human, it would be. From me, it's more like observing that my current clone has a head.
This is what is likely to kill us, and I see no means of changing that, only delaying. You may launch all the righteous programs you like to try to ease or end the slaughter that surrounds us. I'll applaud you if you succeed, just before I fall over from the shock of the surprise.
If you can find a workable alternative, and I emphasize "workable," please propose it. In the meantime, I and those who believe as I do will continue to prepare for what we consider to be the most likely course of events.
Fourth ... I will answer to what degree I am able, given what I have. I fear you are a little mistaken if you regard my beliefs as an ideology. What fuels the Exodus Project is merely foresight and a will to survive-- and perhaps to do some good in the process. This last, at least for me, is an afterthought.
Those working on the project have differing reasons for doing so. Some may indeed have high ideals; I have none that I feel I can call by that name, save, perhaps, my desire to follow my faith by seeking my own perfection in my role as a pilot. This desire drives me to contemplate my state and nature, and this contemplation drives me to conclusions I do not like, yet do not feel I can turn away from without embracing comforting fiction as a substitute for truth.
Once in deep space, I will continue to practice my faith, and to seek my perfection, in company with such as will join me, whether to follow or lead. As to what others will do ... I do not yet know. Aside from survival, I have difficulty imagining an ideal or principle that could unite us all, coming from varying backgrounds and beliefs as we do. I imagine camps and enclaves will quickly form, and conflict is probably inevitable. But our interests do not lie entirely apart, and there are other possibilities, as well.
It will be quite the experiment. In the meantime, we can only dream, and hope, and plan, knowing that half our plans will probably not survive, and the other half will probably not survive unchanged.
Aria Jenneth
Hakase 016
Omerta Syndicate
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Big Zulu
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.01.03 10:10:00 -
[3]
tl;dr
Can you please sum up your fail?
_________
I has bree.. |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.03 11:56:00 -
[4]
Well, they do say that brevity is the soul of wit, pilot.
... Of course, I wasn't actually trying to be witty. If these passages are of no interest to you, by all means pass them by. They are not likely to be meaningful to uninterested parties, and this writing in particular is meant for a single specific reader (though others are welcome, of course).
As for summing it up, in general, the less I explain, the crazier I tend to sound. Thus, writing briefly on this subject tends to defeat the purpose of the writing. Therefore, I try to make my work worth the trouble of reading, rather than reducing both the trouble and the worth.
Aria Jenneth
Negotiator
Omerta Syndicate
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Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2008.01.03 12:41:00 -
[5]
It amazes me that there are people like that among the capsuleer community. You'd think the psychological screening would weed them out, but somehow we do still wind up with a few individuals whose intellect would disgrace a fedo...
Interesting read as always, Aria, even if it is effectively just reinforcing points that you've already made. I'll be interested in hearing what the Abbess has to say in response...
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"Stitcher" is just a call sign. My name is Verin Tarn-Hakatain. |
Wanoah
Minmatar
Msana Foundation
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Posted - 2008.01.03 21:45:00 -
[6]
I am curious to see what kind of response we get from this KorAzor woman. I've had some dealings with her on a purely business level (so many pies; not enough fingers) but even that has been somewhat indirect. See, I had a whole hoarder-load of doubts about any kind of dealings with the woman. While I'm not anti-Amarrian per se, I'm suspicious by default. Those suspicions deepen when an individual seems to have some sympathy with the loyalist paramilitaries.
My advisors assured me that she was on the level and that there was some degree of ideological overlap between us. I trust my advisors' judgement, but some clarification would be great from my point of view.
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Tobias Creed
Minmatar
Draconian Toymaker Corp
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Posted - 2008.01.04 00:41:00 -
[7]
Perhaps it would be for the best if those of you who no longer consider yourselves human left the rest of us in peace. You believe that such a pattern of thinking is inevitable to any capsuleer, but I don't think that is the case. I think this philosophy has arisen from the quickly changing times we live in. The capsule does change what it means to be human, but it does not make those who use it inhuman. Humanity will grow to accept capsuleer technology, and the philosophy of the masses will change to accommodate us. by keeping yourself aloof from the rest of humanity, and yet still among us, you paint yourselves as dangerous aliens without compassion or empathy, a beast to only be placated or destroyed, and thus create the very situation you predict.
In the end, you will either rejoin humanity, leave it, or be destroyed at the self fulfilling prophecy of a backlash against you.
-----
CCP has determined that some alliances were gaining an unfair advantage through the ability of their players to log in. They responded by nerfing boot.ini |
Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2008.01.04 01:02:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Stitcher on 04/01/2008 01:02:27
 Originally by: Tobias Creed
You believe that such a pattern of thinking is inevitable to any capsuleer...
Actually, at the risk of putting words into Aria's mouth, I'm fairly certain that she doesn't.
The one thing that makes this case so fascinating, and which draws me to keep a close eye out for the next "Children of Naught" paper is the meticulous logic that Aria is applying to her situation. A number of people, including myself, have expressed our own opinions (for the record, I'm firmly in the "still human" camp) and our opinions are clearly taken on board, mulled over and responded to with care and attention - making Aria Jenneth a fascinating conversationalist if nothing else.
One of the consistent themes throughout Aria's writing is that she only ever appeals directly to those who feel as she does.
There also remains the fact that she is consistently (and uncomfortably) correct, or at least convincing, on a number of very important points, the "infomorph" state of mind being perhaps one of the least significant.
Despite having been cloned a number of times now myself(I've lost track of the precise figure) I still feel like the same person I always was, and can cope perfectly comfortably with the fact that my current body is partly artificial, and the rest was run up from somebody else's corpse. It may be a very convincing illusion - right down to the genetic material transplant and slightly itchy scar tissue around my dermal implants - but most of us who have been cloned are able to accept the illusion and carry on unchanged. Others cannot, and start to think of themselves as infomorphs instead, but I don't recall Aria ever claiming that the condition was inevitable, or even widespread.
As for the first line of your post suggesting, and I quote, that "it would be for the best if those of you who no longer consider yourselves human left the rest of us in peace" - that's precisely what the Exodus project is for.
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"Stitcher" is just a call sign. My name is Verin Tarn-Hakatain. |
Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.04 01:46:00 -
[9]
Whether or not it is inevitable can be seen as irrelevant. I still consider myself human, for reasons I won't get into. What I feel is more important here is the whole of humanity's perception of the capsuleer, something that could move any apocalyptic prediction of the end us forward.
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Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.04 06:53:00 -
[10]
Captain Stitcher, while I think you are right if you say Captain Jenneth is a great conversationalist, I've my troubles with your statement that she applies meticulous logic and is consistently correct. While she masterfully applys the art of dialectics, she also uses rhetoric "tricks".
If you formalize her arguments you will often stumble upon something like this type of argument (I exaggerate a bit here, but I'm ready to defend my claim in principle.):
If A, then "sometimes" B.
A
--therefore--
B
So while she doesn't claim logic rigor, there is good reason not to attribute it to her argument. To say it in humble words: There are a few too much "could's" in the argument for my gusto, which change into "will's" or "most likely's".
And that's a problem. If you're told something like "humanity has proven more than once in history that it is ready to call something giving reason to be seen as monster 'monster'" and therefore "deadly conflicts between humans and capsuleers are most likely" and "there is most likely no way to solve this situation in coexistence", many pod pilots, which will never develop the feared pod pilot dementia, will try to aviod this conflicts by means of exodus. Many good hearted capsuleers. Not despite their entanglement in human affairs but because they are thusly entangeld and have no interest to battle those they dearly love or fight for now. Just because you've skillfully and tacitly exchanged a small chance or a chance not known by something near 99%.
So while the argument may be convincing and I have sympathies towards the goal of an exodus of those 'suffering' the dementia, I think it wouldn't hurt to adress those feeling that they have lost contact to their humanity directly instead of using argumantative trails which might scare humane capsuleers into exodus or otherwise convince them to plan for leaving.
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.04 08:38:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 04/01/2008 08:45:03
Verin:
Thank you. I'm ... not really sure what else to say.
Director Sakoda:
While I don't think the reality of our situation is precisely irrelevant, I do agree that it's not going to matter much whether we actually are human if the rest of humankind decides we aren't.
Sister Mithra:
Well ... you're not wrong, though I do think it's a bit of an injustice to point to this as rhetoric over logic. Predicting future events is invariably a matter of probability. The pattern which I try to portray, and which I am myself convinced by, works something like your diagram, but with several additional courses all leading towards one conclusion. Like so (sample points; not intended to be comprehensive. Also, please excuse my logical formatting; the State War Academy didn't include a class on formal logical forms):
Assume that the following are true:
(a) Capsuleers cause many deaths.
(b) Capsuleers often do not value human life, at least in practice.
(c) Capsuleers often go "mad."
(d) Capsuleers may not be human, or may be thought not to be.
(w) Humans tend to fear those responsible for to mass killings.
(x) Humans tend to fear those who do not value human life.
(y) Humans tend to fear the insane, or those likely to be so.
(z) Humans tend to fear competing species.
Therefore:
If (a and w) and (b and x) and (c and y) and (d and z), then (M) humans are exceedingly likely to come to fear capsuleers.
Add:
(e) M consists of many causes for fear.
(f) Capsuleers, as a group, are celebrities.
(p) Additional sources of human fear create higher levels of it.
(q) Mass awareness of cause of significant fear tends to result in "mass hysteria" and mob psychology.
... I'm pretty sure you can see where this is headed, so I'll leave the diagram to you. At this point, it stops fitting into neat little pairings, but:
(r) Mob psychology acts as an amplifier for fear and acts as an enabler for violence.
(s) Mob psychology inhibits rational discourse.
... so the likely result is a lot of frightened people acting in what will likely not be a very rational manner, and ...
(t) Humans tend to kill non-human entities that they fear.
(u) Humans tend to designate human entities they fear as non-human entities.
(v) While events in (t) and (u) occur even at low levels of fear, the greater the intensity of the fear, the more likely (t) and (u) are to occur.
... therefore, we have a problem. I'm sorry if that was a bit sketchy towards the end; I'm getting tired, and am not feeling my best.
Please note that human capsuleers are nearly as likely to perish as those who recognize themselves no longer to be human. This isn't just a problem for the "demented," which is why the Exodus Project is aimed at a broader base. I'm not trying to needlessly drag good-natured capsuleers off into the howling black; I'm trying to act as efficiently as possible to get us moving in a direction which might save us.
If you believe I'm worried about a remote risk, I'd be delighted to hear your arguments.
Aria Jenneth
Negotiator
Omerta Syndicate
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Darina Rea
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.01.04 11:16:00 -
[12]
Logic questions are fun. I'm adding (C) for Capsuleers.
(A) - If (a and b) are true then (C) don't value there own lives.
(B) - If (c and d) are true then (C) doesn't have any reason to want to go with any group of other (C). As shooting might get involved.
(D) - (C) came forth out of (M) so some of the characteristics, if not all can be inherited making (w, y, y and z) true for (C).
(E) - At the moment (C) is different from, but part of (M).
(F) - Seperation of the two, or your lovely Exodus, will cause (M) to regard (C) no longer as just celebrities, but as outworldy threat due to concentrated firepower. And in the same regards, (C) will regard (M) as such.
(G) - Thinking of (A) and (B), there will be infighting among both (C) and (M). Also a new group of (C) will emerge for (M) as (M) basicly created (C).
I can go on, but I will end with the conclusion before I reach (Z).
Seperating capsuleers from the Empires (or the 'infomorphs' if you will from the humans) will not in any way at all guarantee a safe and happy existence for the pilots involved in their own makeshift empire. If anything there will be a great deal of in fighting for control over said new region.
Secondly, the Empires will possible cut support and make cloning in empires unavailable. Not a big deal if you imagen that cloning can be done in in the outlaw empires.. but those are part of humanity too. So they'd would cut those services aswell I imagen. Which leaves only outposts and capital ships right? Which are crewed by, you guessed it, humanity.
What are we capsuleers when we can no longer clone anywhere? Dead in the water.
_________
Time is on our side. |
Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
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Posted - 2008.01.04 11:36:00 -
[13]
You're welcome, Aria.
Originally by: Darina Rea
Seperating capsuleers from the Empires (or the 'infomorphs' if you will from the humans) will not in any way at all guarantee a safe and happy existence for the pilots involved in their own makeshift empire. If anything there will be a great deal of in fighting for control over said new region.
Quite possibly, although given that fighting poses only a negligible threat of permanent death for a capsuleer, and given that there is constant internecine warfare between capsuleers right now anyway, I fail to see how that would be much of a change from the status quo. Besides, many of us prefer it that way.
Quote:
Secondly, the Empires will possible cut support and make cloning in empires unavailable. Not a big deal if you imagen that cloning can be done in in the outlaw empires.. but those are part of humanity too. So they'd would cut those services aswell I imagen. Which leaves only outposts and capital ships right? Which are crewed by, you guessed it, humanity.
What are we capsuleers when we can no longer clone anywhere? Dead in the water.
I'm curious, have you actually read the proposal for the Exodus project?
The entire point of Exodus is to enable (C) to function independently of (M) through the use of automated systems - no ship crews, no manned cloning facilities, no human dependency at all. The infomorph civilization would consist of a small core of capsuleers sustained by a symbiotic array of machinery. If it becomes technologically feasible to break a capsuleer's dependence on biomass by uploading the mind into a computer instead, that's being proposed too as a way of negating the need for cloning facilities altogether.
Obviously, there are massive technological challenges to overcome in the pursuit of that goal, but I suspect that the creation of a self-sustaining automated system devoted exclusively to keeping Capsuleers alive and functioning independent of the rest of the human race is perfectly possible. It's effectively a form of transhumanism, a philosophical concept so old that there's a reasonable amount of evidence to suggest that it's been around since before the dark ages.
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Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Darina Rea
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.01.04 11:42:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Darina Rea on 04/01/2008 11:46:30
I'd love to see the day happen you can get a titan running on your own.
Added a few -
Not to mention or forget, agriculture as you have to eat. And manufacturing plants, as you have to build. Then device some sort of program that is flexible enough to cope with random events happening, but with sa***uards so you don't get just another rogue drone nation.
_________
Time is on our side. |
Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
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Posted - 2008.01.04 12:01:00 -
[15]
You're justing listing all the problems that the program has already resolved to try and overcome.
In case you weren't aware, this is not a short-term project.
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Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.04 12:07:00 -
[16]
Hallo, Ms. Rea.
The timeline is currently set at fifty years, and I'm hoping we are lucky enough to have that long.
The project's a bit more ambitious than you seem to think it. You're absolutely correct about what we're going to need, but conflict with humanity isn't likely to be a problem for very long because we're not planning on remaining in this star cluster.
Also, while you're certainly not the first to assume otherwise, it's not a utopian vision we're going for here; survival will be sufficient, initially. Infighting is to be expected.
As I've noted elsewhere, most construction isn't likely to be particularly problematic; minerals and so on should be, if anything, even more plentiful in unexplored deep space than in nullsec. Biomass is a central problem, so hydroponics and biotech will be areas of focus.
We're not being so unrealistic about this project as all that.
As to that titan you mentioned, I'm afraid those will probably have to stay behind. Having a fleet-destroying ship in the departing fleet strikes me as a bad idea, practicalities of refitting such a vessel with the necessary technology aside. It might be worth it for a mothership. A titan? Not so very much.
Admittedly, the jump bridge would be handy.
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Koshmarnaya Akula
Ebon Seraph
Order of the Black Cross
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Posted - 2008.01.04 12:25:00 -
[17]
Aria,
We've talked about this in some level of detail before and while I lack your ability to articulate a point I felt I'd share an observation that arose from our talks.
I love humanity. I spend countless days on planets just wandering from place to place, watching people. I used to think that this reaffirmed my own humanity, but I have to realizea a tragic truth.
I don't fit in with them. Cloning aside my pilots liscense makes me immune to some laws and practices when dealing with non-pilot communities. If I am stopped or challenged the minute they scan my idenity tag. Upom seeomg that I am pilot they not only turn pale but go so far as to apologize for stopping me.
I believe I am human; I do but I am alsoe starting to realize that you are partially right in my eyes. Socially we are removed and haughty. I can only assume this inspires resentment regardless of the faction or service we follow.
Hope you're well, Aria.
Kosh
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Darina Rea
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.01.04 12:34:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Darina Rea on 04/01/2008 12:35:48
Originally by: Stitcher
You're justing listing all the problems that the program has already resolved to try and overcome.
In case you weren't aware, this is not a short-term project.
My, you're a smart cookie aren't you?
In case you aren't aware... all those problems aren't overcome so still stand as listed and unfeasible.
On that note I'll also add a device to cross the distance between galaxies per Aria's response to the list of problems. One big ass jump gate is that going to be. And a freaking long time to get to the other side to build the other side yes? Or can I add that to the list aswell? Perhaps some Sleeper tech instead. We know how they ended up.
And yes, I think you're being unrealistic. Ambitious is one thing, some of the goals are probably reachable in fifty years. The whole scheme of transporting yourself to another galaxy? Not so much.
I'll just reiterate the point once again: You are human. Your whole separation case stands on the sole fact capsuleers can clone at will making death a nuisance only. You can go for your project for as long as you like, but that won't change that you aren't human in mind, body and soul as they say even if you succeed in actually getting anywhere.
(edit: typos!)
_________
Time is on our side. |
Jacinda Molanth
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Posted - 2008.01.04 12:35:00 -
[19]
A very interesting read. Though I may not agree totally with your conclusions, I do feel that many of your points are valid. The ratio of social aberrants among capsuleers is much higher than non-capsuleers. This could very well be a side effect of cloning. Though the body and memories are replicated, what of the intangibles such as compassion, caring, a soul if you would.
I have seen many argue that for the love of some ideal, they are willing to destroy millions of people to either keep to old ways or achieve an ideal. There seems to be no more compassion, only a driven fervor regardless of which side of an argument.
It's interesting to postulate and wonder if these are the very things the Jove asked themselves millenia ago.
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.04 12:52:00 -
[20]
Ms. Rea ...
The distances between galaxies are prohibitive, yes, which is why I'm not proposing any such thing. The star cluster we currently inhabit is but one tiny piece of the greater galaxy. There's more than enough room for us to separate ourselves from humanity and its jump gates. It will doubtless be a lot of work, but it is doable. At worst, should jumping prove impossible, even the slowest of our ships is capable of traveling at many times the speed of light.
Ms. Molanth:
The questions you discuss are ... difficult. I hope to find some answers to them, if not here intermingled with humanity, then out beyond the jump gates where we may explore our natures more freely.
As to the Jove ... it seems possible, yes, though I suspect their history was different from ours: that they adapted to the pod before the pod was ever created-- that they adapted it to themselves.
This is speculation, of course. The Jove are not ... free with their secrets, on the whole.
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Darina Rea
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.01.04 14:06:00 -
[21]
Here's an interesting bit for you. Two capsuleers have a child. The child isn't capable of being a capsuleer. Humanity as you see it has returned to your sanctuary?
I still find the belief that because capsuleers can clone and pilot space ships they are somehow suddenly an entire different species utterly unbelievable. Celebrities have the characteristic to be more eccentric and extreme then your average individual sure, but that's about it.
_________
Time is on our side. |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.04 21:21:00 -
[22]
Ms. Rea:
The truth of our nature is ambiguous, and yes, the ability of clones to produce entirely human offspring is an oddity. Male clones, of course, produce sperm at the usual rate, and can therefore have a great many human children. Females, however, never pass through the stage of growth at which eggs are formed, which to my understanding renders us sterile absent truly exceptional efforts to make us otherwise.
This is, of course, leaving out any discussion of the wisdom of allowing capsuleer clones to become pregnant.
It's therefore probably more accurate to say that, as a rule, female capsuleers don't reproduce at all, and capsuleers mating with other capsuleers fail to produce offspring. Artificially implanting a fertilized egg would undoubtedly work, but you can also do that cross-species in many cases.
Finding a way to truly reproduce is one of the problems that awaits us post-departure, and should make for a couple centuries' engaging scientific endeavor for somebody.
This is really not very relevant to our situation, in the end. The fact that we can even ask ourselves this question with a straight face (many can, even if you cannot) bodes ill for eventual human perception of us. That we should be able to argue for our own exemption from the human race suggests just how easy it would be for "the rest of" humanity to label us inhuman, and therefore monstrous.
Perception is the danger. The truth is yet to be determined.
Aria Jenneth
Hakase 016
Omerta Syndicate
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Garion Avarr
Amarr
Zero Zero Traders
The Colbert Nation
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Posted - 2008.01.05 07:50:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Darina Rea
My, you're a smart cookie aren't you?
In case you aren't aware... all those problems aren't overcome so still stand as listed and unfeasible.
Research is ongoing. Perhaps they will be overcome, perhaps not. As things currently stand, it would not be possible for capsuleers to live seperate from humanity. One of the first aims of the project, then, is to engage in research to find a away to make it possible. It may be that it is not possible, but we have a number of research paths that need to be explored before it can definitively be said that it will never be possible.
Originally by: Darina Rea
I'll just reiterate the point once again: You are human. Your whole separation case stands on the sole fact capsuleers can clone at will making death a nuisance only. You can go for your project for as long as you like, but that won't change that you aren't human in mind, body and soul as they say even if you succeed in actually getting anywhere.
And I do believe that we are human. I certainly hope that it will not change. But it does not, in the end, matter if we are human -- it matters whether non-capsuleers see us as humans. And I believe that they do not see as humans, but as super-humans. Currently, they see us this way for the better . . . but how long until they see us as super-human for the worse? We are larger than life . . . and for the most part, we are not particularly caring towards those smaller than ourselves. Even without being seen as non-human, this is a reciepe for disaster.
This does, of course, bring us to a possible solution to the problem that would mean we would not need to leave: change the views of non-capsuleers and have them see us as humans. Some here believe this possible, some do not, but it is worth trying at the least, and I am trying to study the best way to do this just as I study how capsuleers might survive upon their own.
Our problem may not require us to leave, if we change change minds instead. That would be the preferable solution. But it would be extremely hard to deny that there is a problem.
Originally by: Darina Rea
Here's an interesting bit for you. Two capsuleers have a child. The child isn't capable of being a capsuleer. Humanity as you see it has returned to your sanctuary?
Of course, if such a thing happened -- perhaps with a female capsuleer who still had her original body -- then is it even known what would happen? I have not studied the subject, but is not the ability to become a capsuleer genetic, and thus likely to be passed on to a child of two capsuleers?
Of course, the thought does merit at least some study. If it seems problematic, perhaps research into Jovian technology might be helpful, though that is of course hard to find reliable information on and has its own set of problems.
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This is not a signature. |
Myxx
Gallente
Daughters Of Venus
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Posted - 2008.01.05 11:31:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Myxx on 05/01/2008 11:32:27
Originally by: Garion Avarr
Of course, if such a thing happened -- perhaps with a female capsuleer who still had her original body -- then is it even known what would happen? I have not studied the subject, but is not the ability to become a capsuleer genetic, and thus likely to be passed on to a child of two capsuleers?
Of course, the thought does merit at least some study. If it seems problematic, perhaps research into Jovian technology might be helpful, though that is of course hard to find reliable information on and has its own set of problems.
I can actually answer this... Because, well, I happen to have a daughter.
Back when I was training in the Federal Navy Academy to become a pod pilot, I had a crush on this guy who was also being trained to become a pod pilot. He has since found that pod life is not for him, but we still keep in touch.
One thing came to another, and one night... I, well, became pregnant to put it needlessly.
This is when I had my original body, yet sadly, before my then-mate and I met, he had been forced to clone during a routine patrol he was on.
So... Yes, my daughter is the offspring of a male clone and I when I still had my original body.
If she becomes a pod pilot, is up to her. Aria, I do understand your papers and rather enjoy reading them, even if I somewhat disagree. I think I may be contacting you soon to discuss this when I'm in my pod.
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None of what I post unless specifically said otherwise is ever anything to do with DOVES, only myself. |
Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
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Posted - 2008.01.05 12:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Garion Avarr
Of course, if such a thing happened -- perhaps with a female capsuleer who still had her original body -- then is it even known what would happen? I have not studied the subject, but is not the ability to become a capsuleer genetic, and thus likely to be passed on to a child of two capsuleers?
Genetic, but recessive. If the particular gene sequence responsible for capsule affinity were dominant then we'd be far more common.
The interesting thing about recessive gene sequences is that they only initially appear when both parents have it to begin with, and even then only in a mathematical 25% of cases, but if both parents already exhibit the symptoms of the recessive genes, then the proportion becomes 100% of all offspring.
The equation runs something as follows - if A and B both represent dominant gene-sequences, and C represents a recessive one, the potential results of parents AC and BC mating are: AB, BC, AC, CC. In all cases which are not CC, then the offspring will not exhibit the traits dictated by the recessive gene-sequence - in this case, being capsule-viable.
If CC then goes and produces an offspring with mate AC, then the potential results are AC, AC, CC, CC. With another CC, the potential results are CC, CC, CC, CC, and with an AB, the potential results are AC, AC, BC, BC.
All of which means that the child of two capsuleers will invariably be capsule-viable, rendering Captain Rea's query invalid.
With a non-capsuleer the percentages vary, but that wouldn't be a problem if the Exodus project worked out as planned. Of course that does nothing to counter the fact that cloned female capsuleers are sterile, but that's a problem with the cloning process - one that can, presumably, be repaired, or bypassed via in-vitro fertilization. Keep a stockpile of viable egg cells in cryogenic stasis and fertilize them in a lab with genetic material taken from a male donor. Female capsuleers are only sterile due to their inability to produce zygotes - there's nothing at all wrong with their ability to bring a child to term and give birth once it has begun to form.
I think the one critical thing that would need to be avoided is Jovian-style genetic engineering and clone-based reproduction. We've already seen how much of a disaster that can be. My private theory is that the Jovian Disease is a product of generations of negligible genetic drift among the Jove people - a symptom of a stagnant gene pool. By retaining a form of sexual reproduction the genetic drift would be sufficient to stave off any problems that might arise.
On a more light-hearted note, I'd appreciate if nobody pointed any of my corp-mates at this post. It'd damage my reputation as a jarhead soldier.
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Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Nicoletta Mithra
Amarr
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.05 18:28:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 05/01/2008 18:31:47
Captain Stitcher, you make some mistakes in your reasoning I fear.
First, you assume that the ability to become a capsuleer is inherited by Mendelian inheritance, that is monogenetic. While I'm no geneticist I've not stumbled over a paper which would support this assumption.
Actually, that we are not far more common is a good indicator for assuming that the characteristic is determined polygenetic.
Then, even if you are right with the assumption that it's monogenetic, you have to take into account that we are looking at genetics on a population or even metapopulation level. The uncommonness of capsuleers might very well be caused by a single dominant gene with a very low gene frequency.
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Captain Jenneth, I don't think that your argument "Since (a and w) and (b and x) and (c and y) and (d and z), (M) humans are exceedingly likely to come to fear capsuleers." works. And I think you can't maintain your premise (e), actually if you had a strong framework of probabilistic logic you shouldn't need this premise.
You have an argument like this:
A and (if A then M; p(x1))
B and (if B then M; p(x2))
C and (if C then M; p(x3))
D and (if D then M; p(x4))
--then--
(M; p(X))
A, B, C, D being equivalent to a, b, c, d, (if A then M; p(x1)) is equivalent to w, (if b then M; p(x1)) to x and so forth, with p(x) giving the probability you express by using "tend". (M; p(X)) is equivalent to your (M) with p(X) being the probability of your conclusion, which you give as "exceedingly likely".
Now you assume (that's roughly expressed by (e)) that p(X)=p(x1)+p(x2)+p(x3)+p(x4) or something like that. I'd even say that you tend to say p(X)>p(x1)+p(x2)+p(x3)+p(x4). But that's not that easy.
I dont se how "exceedingly likely"="tend"+"tend"+"tend"+"tend", even if you say "(e) M results from many causes for fear". I think that humans have rather complex evaluation mechanisms, which are non-linear and where p(X)=p(x2)>p(x1)>p(x4)>p(x3) or something like that might also be true.
Actually I claim that you don't really know where p(x1) and the other probabilities lie within the space of probabilities. And you don't know how these "add up" to p(X). And therefore I think it's a rhetoric trick to say "Since (a and w) and (b and x) and (c and y) and (d and z), (M) humans are exceedingly likely to come to fear capsuleers.", because it has a logical ring to it, even if it's not strictly logical.
That's not to say that you use rhetorics over dialectics. It's just to say you use these tricks and you don't exercise the logic rigor in your arguments that bores 95% of humans to death. Everyone uses rhetoric tricks if he wants to reach a goal and nobody likes to be accused of doing so. The truth is, if you wouldn't use these tricks, you wouldn't be half as good a conversationalist.
/Edit: typos
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.05 21:17:00 -
[27]
Ms. Mithra:
... Hm. Well, you're probably correct. To be frank, I'm one of the 95% of even capsuleers who find strict figures less than completely enthralling, as you could no doubt tell from my lackluster attempt to generate them.
Much of what I have to say is difficult, if not impossible, to prove, and human reactions are admittedly difficult to predict with certainty. What I say is quite simply what seems likely to me, based on my own knowledge and observations. Much of my evidence is anecdotal or based on "common sense" arguments which may be judged less intellectually rigorous than your diagrams. Your abbess certainly seemed to believe I had no idea what I was talking about. Perhaps that's true.
Yet I observe what I observe, and, based on those observations, form beliefs and opinions, and I cannot say that I consider these beliefs or opinions to be wrong or without basis. People act as people act, for the most part, and while I may hope to be surprised, I do not expect to be, nor do I act in anticipation of being surprised.
I act in anticipation of not being surprised, with an eye to avoiding harm in the event that I am wrong.
In the end, I suspect that this is the best that we can do. Result "M" seems to me extremely probable, since factors are at play that should, on the face of it, end up playing on "human nature" like a xylophone. Upon reflection, I'm not sure how to diagram that. I'm not even sure it can be properly diagrammed in a way that would represent the realities of the situation fully.
All I can do is interpret, and, given what my interpretation is, hope to be mistaken.
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Stitcher
Caldari
legion of qui
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Posted - 2008.01.06 13:37:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra
Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 05/01/2008 18:31:47
Captain Stitcher, you make some mistakes in your reasoning I fear.
First, you assume that the ability to become a capsuleer is inherited by Mendelian inheritance, that is monogenetic. While I'm no geneticist I've not stumbled over a paper which would support this assumption.
Actually, that we are not far more common is a good indicator for assuming that the characteristic is determined polygenetic.
Then, even if you are right with the assumption that it's monogenetic, you have to take into account that we are looking at genetics on a population or even metapopulation level. The uncommonness of capsuleers might very well be caused by a single dominant gene with a very low gene frequency.
While you're quite right, in that I was over-simplifying the issue, I would still contend that my point - that the frequency of non-capsule-viable births in an exclusively capsule-viable population would be negligible to nonexistent - is still valid.
As for papers to support my previous statement, try "Phase space and genetic affinity for neural interface devices" by Dr. Tuotoh Kanaari. Frankly, it was pretty hard going, but then again it is aimed at other geneticists. In it, she contended that the Mendelian genetic model, while over-simplified, does still provide a sufficiently accurate mathematical model to be considered valid, especially if we consider the fact that the Mendelian model is really just a phase-space calculation exploring all the possible combinations of a certain set of variables within a framework of rules. By expanding the starting variables, we expand the phase-space (the list of possible results), but only a few specific results within that phase-space will produce viable pod pilots.
How that relates to my previous statement is that my last example was too simple - there were a total of three possible variables, A, B and C. In real life, the number of variables would be more like thirty thousand. Of course, the number of potential combinations is staggering, and the particular sequence we're looking for is a tiny minority, comfortably explaining how capsule viability only appears in one out of every few hundred million. Factor in the possibility that a significant number of those may go unnoticed or won't pass the physical or psychological profiling and it's no wonder we're as rare as we are.
The paper's an interesting read, and I suggest you look it up. Dr. Kanaari's a good writer, albeit rather dry, and you should expect to have to do a lot of research on the side if you want to understand it properly.
Anyway, we're digressing, I think.
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Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Jacinda Molanth
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Posted - 2008.01.06 16:31:00 -
[29]
Miss. Jenneth;
I fear your planned endeavor may in fact have the opposite effect you desire. It seems that capseleers, as a group, become colder and less human the longer they are away from the normal people. The longer a person is a pilot, the more likely they have lost humanity.
I postulate that the longer one is away from humanity, the less human they become. The pilots I have spoken with that are capable of eradicate hundreds without so much as a thought are the same one that can not answer me as to when the last time they had been out of space.
I have found that the younger pilots seem to still maintain contact with families and friends. They often return home for visits, as I do, and are not bloodthirsty inhumane monsters. Of the older pilots I have spoken to only those that still try to maintain a somewhat normal life while maintaining contact with humanity, appear to be far more humane.
Thus my findings seem to indicate that the closer one remains to humanity, the more humane you remain. Leave humanity and you will degrade into killing automatons. Constant contact with normals will help you keep that spark of humanity alive and active.
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.06 21:32:00 -
[30]
Ms. Molanth:
You're most likely correct about the importance of isolation, whether as a root cause or as a contributing factor that permits psychological changes to occur more quickly.
It's also possible that our social estrangement is an symptom, rather than a root-- that we become more isolated the more distant we grow emotionally. It's quite possible that those less-human capsuleers you spoke of had not been planetside due to a lack of desire to travel there. I know I personally feel quite completely alien on most worlds I visit.
All of this aside, however, I'm afraid you mistake my motive somewhat. I am not particularly human myself, nor do I desire to become more so. If there was a way back, I doubt, now, that I would take it. My primary motive for initiating the project is to ensure the survival of capsuleers as a group. I personally believe that our altered psychology is symptomatic of a more basic change and that we are, essentially, a new form of life-- the infomorph.
According to the Achur system of belief, all that exists within this universe has a place, a role to play, and it is the goal of the Achura to seek perfection within our roles-- to be perfectly in tune with the universe, to be able to flow with the universe around us like water in a river, without thought or will. Each of us, infomorphs included, is a microcosm of the totality-- each of us contains the entire universe within ourselves, yet is part of the whole, as well.
I do not wish to die without learning where it is that we fit, to spend my life fighting the current because I cannot even understand what it means to be still. I know that I might be doing this wrong, that I might be fighting fate by even trying to save us. It may be our role simply to die out. Yet, is it not in the nature of any living creature to seek its own survival?
To act in a way that will keep us alive-- that is part of what it is to live.
I want to learn what I am. That is why I seek to save us-- not as humans, but as living beings.
I should mention that these are my personal beliefs, and are not necessary for considering the exodus necessary. Others ... undoubtedly have their own personal reasons for wishing to help. And if that reason is only the will to survive, there is nothing so very wrong with that.
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