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Brevven Dej
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.01.06 05:27:00 -
[1]
My biggest problem with EVE is a simple one. Why do ships have a maximum speed? (Ignore Warps/Jumps for now, I'm fine with those, I just mean the basic flight speed of ships). We're supposedly in space, and since we're going at fractions of the speed of light (c = 300,000,000 m/s) , we can assume Newtonian motion.
The limiting factor should be the acceleration a ship can experience . This makes sense for two reasons. Firstly, Since a ship under acceleration experiences stress, a ship can only take so much.
More importantly, basic physics considerations demand it: Newton says force is mass times acceleration, or F = ma, or a=F/m. Therefore your acceleration should be proportion to the force (F) that your thrusters/afterburners/microwarps can provide, divided by the mass of your ship. Now acceleration is the time derivative of velocity, or a = dv/dt, or v = integral(a(t) dt). Assuming constant acceleration over time for simplicity's sake, v=at. Thus there should be no arbitrary maximum on velocity (well, up to relativistic speeds, but at that point we can assume the FTL warp drives, etc). The velocity a ship can reach should only be limited by its maximum acceleration and the maximum time it can accelerate.
Now for anyone worried (zomg speed ruins pvp): here is the catch. Imagine you're going along at some crazy fast speed; stopping takes just as much force and time as getting up to that speed. In fact, orbiting at a crazy speed will constantly require a huge amount of work, as well. This makes it very easy to control ship's reasonable maximum speeds. The Powergrid/CPU determine the force a ship can get (based on ABs, etc), combined with the ship's mass this determines the acceleration. The Capacitor determines how long once can sustain this acceleration.
Beyond that, you can further prevent ships from accelerating too quickly and too long by placing a limit on the amount of stress a ship can handle from acceleration. Say a ship accelerating over its limit starts to take hull damage at a rate proportional to the amount over the limit. So if a ship wanted to orbit at some "unintended" insane speed, it could only do it for a length of time before its hull gave in.
It simply doesn't make sense to have an arbitrary upper limit to the speed of spaceships. That basically changes EVE to a land-based game with a space-themed setting and starry nebulae scenery.
Is there any chance EVE will ever change to an actual Newtonian model for ship motion?
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Nizar
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.01.06 05:34:00 -
[2]
maybe you will be kinda disappointed about this answer but tbh dude, noone/very very few really care about newtonian model in EVE. this game needs prolly 1 million other more important gameplay improvements players would like to see before we get to real laws of physics...
-------------- Nizar -------------- BARON VON NEINLEDERHOSEN
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.06 05:35:00 -
[3]
Then play Orbit.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services The Acquisition
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Posted - 2008.01.06 05:37:00 -
[4]
Game balance vs physics.
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Draconyx
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Posted - 2008.01.06 06:00:00 -
[5]
Actaully there are alot more laws the go into it but lets make it simple.
Equal and opposite reaction.
I thrust @ fixed rate equal to 10. Now lets just say that is enough overcome the mass of the ship. Once I reached a point where mass and thrust are equal there would no longer be acceleration. In fact if you left you engines on all you would do would do would be wasting fuel as you need to increase thrust to get to a faster speed.
You will not slow down either as you are in space (throwing gravity out of course)
But either way it is a game and as others have siad I suggest you play Ortbit it is alot of fun.
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Dirk Magnum
Spearhead Endeavors
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Posted - 2008.01.06 06:03:00 -
[6]
I've been a life-long fan of both science fiction and science fact. Frequently the two are at odds. My advice is to start drinking heavily whenever you play Eve.
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Draconyx
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Posted - 2008.01.06 06:22:00 -
[7]
THis is where SCI-FI takes a back seat.
Liquid or solid fuels have termendous thrust and acceleration. BUT You run out of fuel fast so you get up to a target speed faster. However You never hit the theroretical limit though as you run out of fuel.
ION engines have much less thrust but have no real mass. (keep in mind mass is a determining factor in how fast you go) SO ION drives take a very long time to get up to speed but are much more effectient on fuel. Especially between plantets. But again like solid or liquid you never actually hit there theroretical speed as you have to slow down at before you even get to that point.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.06 06:29:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Brevven Dej More importantly, basic physics considerations demand it:
And the need to have a game that is actually playable denies it.
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Tek'a Rain
Gallente Collegium Mechanicae
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Posted - 2008.01.06 06:40:00 -
[9]
eve is modeled on top of stolen submarine trainer simulations. thats the only answer that makes sense.
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Lazuran
Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.06 06:52:00 -
[10]
Hamsters get sick at high speeds.
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois. |
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Saint Lazarus
DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.01.06 06:54:00 -
[11]
As a relatively old EvE player I feel its my duty to clarify how very very very little I care about having true newtonian physics in EvEs gameplay.
It never once advertised itself as a space simulator.
I love EvE but at least other MMO players dont expect their swords to fly at a realistic speed relative to teh length and speed of teh arm that yields it with detailed and comprehensive theorys to back up their whine. ------------------------------
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Taua Roqa
Minmatar Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.01.06 06:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt Then play Orbit.
i used to 'play' a 'game' like that years ago on a 286 when i was like 10, you had to get a satellite into a stable orbit around a body.
-------------------------------------------- Threads are stacking-nerfed; the more posts you add the less effective those posts are. mooooooo. |
Sapharen
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Posted - 2008.01.06 06:58:00 -
[13]
Quote: My biggest problem with EVE is a simple one. Why do ships have a maximum speed?
Because the warp drive inherent to our propulsion system works by creating a directional instability against the aggregate mass of the galaxy.
Those lines you see coming out the back of your ship aren't a pretty graphic effect; they're a trail of where the instability your jump-drive caused is normalizing itself in normal space.
The whole galaxy adopted this "slant" drive a few centuries ago, as it has two massive advantages:
1: No practical need for fuel. Your ship can literally go on for ever, provided that you're stocked with a crew that will reproduce as time goes on.
2: Massive Speed. A simple newtonian drive simply cannot get any reasonable speed. Do you have any idea how many newtons of thrust you would need to accelerate a ten kilometer wide ship to 1,000 km/s in less than ten minutes?
There are, of course, two drawbacks:
1: A maximum speed. If you make your distortion too great a fraxion of your ship's mass, you'll rupture the drive and destroy your ship. And the resulting mini-black hole renders your clone transmission lost, thus killing you.
2: Inertia. Without power applied from the warp to create a slant, your ship returns to the warp's stationary position against the galaxy as a whole.
Stepping out of immersion, it's a game. Sometimes physics have to be sacraficed for the sake of the game. If you don't believe this, try creating a pen-and-paper game using actual newtonian physics. Then watch as combat becomes a matter of projecting tradjectories and releasing mass on an intercept course.
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Lazuran
Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2008.01.06 07:03:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sapharen Do you have any idea how many newtons of thrust you would need to accelerate a ten kilometer wide ship to 1,000 km/s in less than ten minutes?
Haven't seen big ships go that fast in eve (since 2003 anyway).
Perhaps you mean 1000m/s.
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois. |
vanBuskirk
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.06 08:04:00 -
[15]
Sapharen, I like that idea. It was actually used before, in a pen and paper RPG called Traveller 2300 (no real relation to Traveller) and in that setting the drive was called stutterwarp.
However, there are a few problems with it, mostly to do with such things as docking. A real spaceship, whether it had some sort of pseudospeed drive or not, would still need thrusters to match velocities with the station. In addition to this, without some sort of thrusters you might well come through a jump portal moving at tens of kilometres per second relative to the entire solar system you were jumping into - stars move relative to each other, after all, and so therefore do all objects in that solar system - and nowhere in the backstory does it state that the jumpgate sets up a velocity match.
There are all sorts of physics holes in EVE if you look for them - for example, no guns except lasers should hit instantly. Typical artillery projectile speeds in RL are maybe a kilometre per second. OK, maybe increase that by an order of magnitude to 10km/s - at fleet sniping ranges that still means that the shells take maybe 20 seconds to travel the distance. Not much faster than a missile, really! Railgun rounds could possibly be 10 times faster than that again, but again at sniping ranges the round takes a couple of seconds.
The point is that various features that don't sit well with real physics are there to make for better and/or more balanced gameplay. I would like to see a game based on real-world physics (essentially no weapons except beams of various sorts and guided missiles, engagement ranges of anything from thousands of kilometres to several AU, combat being a battle of ECM, ECCM and computers and you never see your enemy with your eyes except maybe as an exhaust flare) but it would neither look nor play anything like EVE.
It might be quite interesting, though - with combat in some cases being a battle of wits, perhaps with clouds of ball bearings or other junk being left in the projected path of an enemy ship, missiles being left all over the place like a minefield, and so on. Frankly, this would work better as a strategy game than an MMORPG, however. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
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Brevven Dej
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.01.06 08:04:00 -
[16]
Yes, I understand that there are more important gameplay issues that need to be fixed first. My concern is obviously low priority comparatively. But lets talk about it anyways, for fun, because some of you cared enough to reply (Thanks! :)
Quote: Game balance vs physics.
I don't think the game would be any less balanced. It might even become more balanced since ship movement (velocity, orbiting, more advanced maneuvers) would boil down to a few fundamental physical properties. My suggestion of stress damage to ships that accelerate too fast would be an eay way to "nerf" a ships reasonable maximum speed as well.
The reason nature works the way it does is because it is a sort of inherent balance. I believe a physical model for movement in EVE could actually create more balance. (See my next post in this thread for an EVE-based reason why real world models are worth using in games)
Quote: Actaully there are alot more laws the go into it but lets make it simple.
Equal and opposite reaction.
I thrust @ fixed rate equal to 10. Now lets just say that is enough overcome the mass of the ship. Once I reached a point where mass and thrust are equal there would no longer be acceleration. In fact if you left you engines on all you would do would do would be wasting fuel as you need to increase thrust to get to a faster speed.
I see you've studied your physics. In this situation, (space no air resistance), any amount of thrust (force) would produce acceleration on any size ship. The amount of acceleration is inversely proportional to the mass of the ship (a = F/m). You do not actually need to increase the thrust to continue accelerating. That only occurs when there is an opposing force that increases with speed (such as air resistance).
Indeed, it is an equal and opposite reaction. You just need to apply it to the situation as it stands: Say your ship is 10 kg. You thrust at 10N, there is a normal force from the ship against the "thrusting particles." (or whatever is providing the thrust, this would even work for theorertical gravity based drives). Those "particles" accelerate in the opposite direction of the ship at some specific speed. 10N/10gk = 1 m/s^2 of acceleration. Assuming a constant 10N thrust, this is constant acceleration, even if you increase velocity, as velocity doesn't enter into the equation without air resistance.
This also ties into the first law of motion, in that there is no air resistance to slow a ship down once you've given it thrust. But I'm going on a tangent (:
Quote: It never once advertised itself as a space simulator.
I love EvE but at least other MMO players dont expect their swords to fly at a realistic speed relative to teh length and speed of teh arm that yields it with detailed and comprehensive theorys to back up their whine.
Thanks for bringing this back to EVE-reality. You're right. I don't want it to simulate space and don't expect it to. That would be over the top. Planetary motion, relativity, etc. Those aren't very important to make it feel like space. However, I want it to feel a little like space. One of the fundamental aspects of space is that it is space, there is nothing there slowing you down. And, as far as "detailed and comprehensive theorys" go, newtonian motion is extremely simple, especially if you treat each ship as its own independent inertial reference frame and ignore the interactions between them. It would probably be simpler than the current motion model of EVE, which I can guarantee are based on more than 3 laws, and more complicated laws.
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Brevven Dej
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.01.06 08:18:00 -
[17]
As promised, a post about why real world models are worth using.
Consider a parallel from within EVE. The market is almost perfectly free so it obeys the laws of economics. Artificial markets in other MMOs inevitably break down, and certain spots become the "best spawns", and an artificial economy is set up around them. EVE is agnostic to what area is the "best spawn", and as such I can earn a decent living in 0.0 or high sec. In some MMOs, if you're not in the "best spawn" area, you can't compete.
Lets take an example on how this problem is solved by EVE, now (there are tons of examples in EVE, this is just one). If everyone decided that they would mine Mercoxit or Bistot (some of the "best" ores, perhaps), then tritanium would become the most valuable mineral in the game, and people would migrate towards mining Veldspar. You don't have to mine Mercoxit to make ISK. In fact, you can get Mercoxit/Morphite by actively not mining it, and finding something in demand to trade for it. That means, you don't even have to "camp the best spawn" in order to get "the best item", you just need to find a niche to fill.
I know that we can't apply every law from the real world to EVE. However, it's worth examining simple systems from the real world (such as Newtonian motion), to see how they could help balance and improve gameplay.
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Brevven Dej
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.01.06 08:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum I've been a life-long fan of both science fiction and science fact. Frequently the two are at odds. My advice is to start drinking heavily whenever you play Eve.
Truer words (:
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Ban Shui
Eve University
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Posted - 2008.01.06 08:41:00 -
[19]
Space combat a la star trek/star wars/eve is nice in fiction, but such combat would be impossible in the real world.
Basically, a newtonian physics model would make eve unplayable.
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Imhothar Xarodit
Minmatar Wolverine Solutions Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.06 08:57:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Imhothar Xarodit on 06/01/2008 09:04:34
Originally by: Brevven Dej I see you've studied your physics. In this situation, (space no air resistance), any amount of thrust (force) would produce acceleration on any size ship. The amount of acceleration is inversely proportional to the mass of the ship (a = F/m). You do not actually need to increase the thrust to continue accelerating. That only occurs when there is an opposing force that increases with speed (such as air resistance).
You aren't entirely correct here. Thanks to the theory of relativity, which has prooven rather true until now, says that a body's mass increases with velocity. This is the reason why an object under classic physics cannot reach the velocity of light (it gets a division by zero in its energy equation, aka singularity). It can get closer and closer, but never really reach it. The result of this is, that you constantly have to increase the thrust applied to an object the faster it gets. This can be observed inside particle accelerators where the mass of the particles increases the closer it reaches speed of light, thus neglecting the effects of constant acceleration energy.
So in fact he was right, at some point either your ship gets torn apart by the stress or its mass increase neglects the thruster effect.
One funny thing to imagine is the first Newtonian Law: you accelerate your ship to insane speeds. According to the law, when you shut down your engines, you continue to move at that speed in that direction. Now comes the funny part: Now try to turn! It would tear the ship in pieces, as parts of it "want" to move forward with an incredible kinetic energy, but other parts "want" to move to the side. Weeeeee!
Another thing why EVE has limited speeds would probably be the possibility of creating safe spots far out of scanner/probing range. Just get an inty and let it fly 22 hours with steady acceleration and make a safe spot. Repeat that a few days and nobody can find you ever.
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astowv
The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.01.06 09:15:00 -
[21]
Who cares?
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Thorek Ironbrow
Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research
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Posted - 2008.01.06 09:39:00 -
[22]
What I don't get is, you're in space. There's no resistances. What is stopping my ship from stopping. Surely I'd only need my thrusters on untill I'm at max speed then they can be turned off.
Also, turning thrusters. With the thruster placement on some ships, I'm surpirsed they don't just spin about in space a lot. But where are my braking and turning thrusters.
But to be honest, I don't really care, I play this game for what it is. _____________________________ Thorek Ironbrow of Ironbrow Industries Co. Part of the Empire Research Alliance Look us up in Nomaa or Itamo to join! |
Ishan Mons
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Posted - 2008.01.06 09:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Draconyx Actaully there are alot more laws the go into it but lets make it simple.
Equal and opposite reaction.
I thrust @ fixed rate equal to 10. Now lets just say that is enough overcome the mass of the ship. Once I reached a point where mass and thrust are equal there would no longer be acceleration. In fact if you left you engines on all you would do would do would be wasting fuel as you need to increase thrust to get to a faster speed.
You will not slow down either as you are in space (throwing gravity out of course)
But either way it is a game and as others have siad I suggest you play Ortbit it is alot of fun.
your understanding of physics leaves a little to be desired, a set amount of thrust will accelerate a mass at a constant rate provided there are no opposing forces(in space there is no wind resistance) you may run into relativity issues when the velocity of the particles exiting your engine approach the your relative velocity to other ships/objects... but thats not gonna come into play till WELL past our ships current non warp speeds.
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2008.01.06 10:02:00 -
[24]
Eve's a sub sim. Space is filled with a transparent, moderately viscous substance (could it be the Lumuniferous aether?). Didn't you know that?
Just be glad you don't have to triangulate torpedo targeting yourself. Now THAT would be a missile nerf! -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.06 11:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Draconyx Actaully there are alot more laws the go into it but lets make it simple.
Equal and opposite reaction.
I thrust @ fixed rate equal to 10. Now lets just say that is enough overcome the mass of the ship. Once I reached a point where mass and thrust are equal there would no longer be acceleration. In fact if you left you engines on all you would do would do would be wasting fuel as you need to increase thrust to get to a faster speed.
You will not slow down either as you are in space (throwing gravity out of course)
But either way it is a game and as others have siad I suggest you play Ortbit it is alot of fun.
Suffice it to say that you completely fail at physics....
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Freya Runestone
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.01.06 11:51:00 -
[26]
don't care about the max speed. something that i find odd though, why do you stop if you turn off your engines? :P
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Ciara Daag
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.01.06 11:56:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Brevven Dej My biggest problem with EVE is a simple one. Why do ships have a maximum speed?
Its very simple,Ive played games where the mechanics are correct. They suck. I really dont want to play a game where battles happen beyond visual range and all we do is toss nukes at each other and hope our interceptor missiles can shoot down the enemies. One nuke and your dead,even if your ship survives,every one inside dies. Even ignoring that,the idea that we can warp in battleships at 300km,and make a run at the enemy,passing them at 50,000km/sec is just not workable.
I don't want to play the game where combat is,warp the fleet in at 300km,fly by at 20km/s,and launch a volly of missiles to gank the enemy as you go by. Its just not fun.
Actually,your analysis of orbits is not quite correct. The maximum orbital velocity is going to be determined by the maximum acceleration of the ship. The condition for a stable orbit is F=(mv^2)/r (where F is the thrust of the ship) so v=sqrt(rF/m) but F/m=a so v=sqrt(ar). In other words,you can choose v OR choose r,for a given a,but not both. Since the maximum a is a property of the ship,this sets a given max r for a given v or vice versa.
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Ciara Daag
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.01.06 12:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Freya Runestone don't care about the max speed. something that i find odd though, why do you stop if you turn off your engines? :P
Its actually quite simple. Eve really takes place in a very viscous fluid. In fact,look at rouge drones. Those are not tentacles,they are flagella. If you watch carefully you can see the rouge drones use them to move about in a strait line for awhile,then rotate around randomly and shoot off in another direction. Eventually their random walk takes them all around the asteroid belt finding food.
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Jacob Holland
Gallente 19th Star Logistics
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Posted - 2008.01.06 18:38:00 -
[29]
Your speed is limited by the braking forces of millions of collisions between interstellar hydrogen atoms and the magnetic "scoop" on the front of your ship.
Your ship is self fueling, its fusion reactor would rapidly burn through hydrogen stored on board (not to mention that that would increase the ship's mass and thereby reduce the efficiency of your engines anyway) and therefore it is built to draw its fuel from the environment. Consider if you will the energy required to accelerate a Megathron class Battleship, now consider the relative sparsity of hydrogen in the interplanetary void and therefore the area which must be effected by your scoop in order that the volume of space covered by movement yields sufficient hydrogen atoms to power that movement.
The scoop which represents life itself to your ship and everyone on board (especially you) also represents a considerable braking force and ultimately an effective speed limit for your ship. --
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Armoured C
Gallente Globaltech Industries Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.01.07 00:14:00 -
[30]
can i self destruct my ship now
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