Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
AIchemist
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 12:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: AIchemist on 09/01/2008 12:37:01
The use of Black Ops Jump Drives to escape a CONCORD response in high-security space by jumping to low-security space has been deemed an exploit. This tactic has been reported to the QA team and will be resolved in the near future. Anyone caught using this exploit will be punished accordingly, as this can easily be tracked and verified in our logs.
I had to lol at this part a little bit.It's nice to know after all the petitions and normal responses of logs showing nothing... that the new black ops movements and uses are clearly logged.
I think I'll start flying one..Then when something happens due to crap game lag etc.The game logz can actually show something happens beyond my control happened as it has 100's of times without logs ever showing a thing.
|
Shenko Minara
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 12:34:00 -
[2]
The logs show everything, but the GM standing orders from CCP are to punish as much as they can but reimburse as little as possible.
:) -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you. |
Jonny JoJo
Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 12:35:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Shenko Minara The logs show everything, but the GM standing orders from CCP are to punish as much as they can but reimburse as little as possible.
:)
You mean like a Car insurance company?
Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total) |
Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 12:39:00 -
[4]
Maybe cause CCP forces all GMs to farm isk money and reimburse people with their own isk. After many hours of grinding, the GM will be very reluctant to help you. And because of the boring grinding, he'll be eager to punish you, taking comfort in the thought that your life has just become a little more miserable than his own
|
|
CCP Wrangler
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 12:42:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Shenko Minara The logs show everything, but the GM standing orders from CCP are to punish as much as they can but reimburse as little as possible.
:)
Our aim is to always assist players if at all possible. To do that we do need evidence however and sometimes there is nothing in the logs showing any problems.
Wrangler Community Manager CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang
"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." |
|
Jovoich
Towers Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 12:48:00 -
[6]
Sorry to Hijack the thread, but wrangler could you check the to pod or not to pod thread please
|
roadrage639
VITA.
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 13:00:00 -
[7]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Shenko Minara The logs show everything, but the GM standing orders from CCP are to punish as much as they can but reimburse as little as possible.
:)
Our aim is to always assist players if at all possible. To do that we do need evidence however and sometimes there is nothing in the logs showing any problems.
Anyone caught using this exploit will be punished accordingly, as this can easily be tracked and verified in our logs.
or if the GM is to lazy to look huh?
|
AIchemist
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 13:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Shenko Minara The logs show everything, but the GM standing orders from CCP are to punish as much as they can but reimburse as little as possible.
:)
Our aim is to always assist players if at all possible. To do that we do need evidence however and sometimes there is nothing in the logs showing any problems.
<3
|
sg3s
Caldari O.W.N. Corp
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 13:26:00 -
[9]
Edited by: sg3s on 09/01/2008 13:27:33 The logs wont show any bugs, just maybe traces and indications of them being there. Bugs are very smart and won't show themselves in the logs, too bad huh?
|
Theo Samaritan
Gallente Pheonix Reborn
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 13:31:00 -
[10]
well tbh i wouldve thought cyno jumping and concord agression were two things that would always be logged. its nice to know i was right. --------------
Templars do not tank Jita so well without a steady supply of Cake. |
|
Kyozoku
Mutiny.
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 13:48:00 -
[11]
I've never had a single ship reimbursed in my 3 years of playing but that might be because I write all of my petitions in the style of a 40k ork. |
Surreptitious
Privateers Privateer Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 14:07:00 -
[12]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Shenko Minara The logs show everything, but the GM standing orders from CCP are to punish as much as they can but reimburse as little as possible.
:)
Our aim is to always assist players if at all possible. To do that we do need evidence however and sometimes there is nothing in the logs showing any problems.
So in other words only those seeking reimbursement will have potentially flawed logs. But if you did something wrong/illegal the logs will always show perfect information.
Sounds about right.
Syrup
|
wierchas noobhunter
Cosmic Fusion When Fat Kids Attack
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 14:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shenko Minara The logs show everything, but the GM standing orders from CCP are to punish as much as they can but reimburse as little as possible.
:)
stop posting ?
|
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 14:25:00 -
[14]
Really you have problems getting to think how the log work?
To prove that you have jumped away I only need your log, not even CCP log.
Every change of session is clearly recorded, and that include jumping through a gate or using a cyno field.
Your attacks on other players and the system where they happen are equally registered.
Sum those data and you can prove when someone has attacked a non Concord sanctioned target in high sec and if he has lost the ship (change of session again) or escaped.
Extremely easy to do without any special log.
|
10of12
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 14:48:00 -
[15]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Our aim is to always assist players if at all possible. To do that we do need evidence however and usually there is nothing in the logs showing any problems.
Fixed it
But in this black-ops case it's pretty easy as both session changes (jumps) and attacks are logged. So if you attack somebody in high-sec and you jump away without concord killing you it's in the logs. I only wonder if this exploit is automatically detected or if it will only be found when somebody reports it ?
|
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 14:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Surreptitious So in other words only those seeking reimbursement will have potentially flawed logs. But if you did something wrong/illegal the logs will always show perfect information.
Sounds about right.
Syrup
The events involved in this exploit are very clearly defined, and can be described by very specific event triggers that will be logged.
The majority of reimbursement petitions are due to lag/disconnects. There are many causes of this that will not manifest itself on the server at all. Your computer may well have crashed, or the internet routing between you and the server may well have started sending your packets into a black hole. That you were genuinely unable to play due to technical issues will be obvious to you. But the server has no way of knowing that. All the server sees is that you're no longer sending it instructions or responses. It has no way of knowing why. For all it knows, you've been eaten by a purple-headed monster from the planet Zog.
Making the assumption: "You didn't send any commands for X minutes before your destruction, so you must have crashed, here's your ship back", would open the reimbursement system to widespread abuse. It would make the pvp aggression timers pointless, because you could still ctrl-q and claim you crashed, safe in the knowledge that you'll be given your ship back regardless of what happens during your aggression timer period.
At this point someone usually chimes in with "well you can get the client to tell the server when it ctrl-q's, so you know they quit willingly, and not reimburse them". Which is fine, except for things like the big red "block internet" button on my firewall. If I press that before pressing ctrl-q, the client isn't going to be telling anyone anything. Or I can just physically pull out my network cable. Either way, the server has no way of differentiating between a genuine drop, and a deliberate one. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Rosa Rosette
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 14:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Surreptitious So in other words only those seeking reimbursement will have potentially flawed logs. But if you did something wrong/illegal the logs will always show perfect information.
Sounds about right.
Syrup
truth
finally someone puts brains over flames!
|
Haradgrim
The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 15:12:00 -
[18]
i feel a need to point out: Link
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
|
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 15:34:00 -
[19]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 09/01/2008 15:34:33 ITT: People still think lag is grounds for reimbursement, and that the server logs it.
Actually, what Matthew said up above me.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
|
Skyfinder
Ascent of Ages
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 15:40:00 -
[20]
You bitter person.
|
|
Haradgrim
The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 16:11:00 -
[21]
Can I be the one to point out:
Running from the police using experimental jump drive: Makes Sense(exploit)
Allowing them to kill you because you accidentally fired a weapon (despoite the fact that you have an experimental jump drive): Does Not Make Sense (CCP preffered course of action)
OUCH! You hurt my immersion!
Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
|
GoGo Yubari
PAK
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 16:18:00 -
[22]
It's just that people file a petition even when there was nothing really that dramatic going on (or because their computer is so crappy). I don't think I've ever had anything but a positive response to my petitions which had just cause. Then again, I don't petition every loss just because I suck.
PAK is recruiting! |
Evil Edna
Seal Cub Clubbing Club
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 16:22:00 -
[23]
well during the big desync bug time i petitioned a few of losses due to the desync bug, some responses were 'logs show nothing' some where 'here have ship back'
makes ya wonder
|
Yamalok
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 16:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Surreptitious So in other words only those seeking reimbursement will have potentially flawed logs. But if you did something wrong/illegal the logs will always show perfect information.
Sounds about right.
Syrup
The events involved in this exploit are very clearly defined, and can be described by very specific event triggers that will be logged.
The majority of reimbursement petitions are due to lag/disconnects. There are many causes of this that will not manifest itself on the server at all. Your computer may well have crashed, or the internet routing between you and the server may well have started sending your packets into a black hole. That you were genuinely unable to play due to technical issues will be obvious to you. But the server has no way of knowing that. All the server sees is that you're no longer sending it instructions or responses. It has no way of knowing why. For all it knows, you've been eaten by a purple-headed monster from the planet Zog.
Making the assumption: "You didn't send any commands for X minutes before your destruction, so you must have crashed, here's your ship back", would open the reimbursement system to widespread abuse. It would make the pvp aggression timers pointless, because you could still ctrl-q and claim you crashed, safe in the knowledge that you'll be given your ship back regardless of what happens during your aggression timer period.
At this point someone usually chimes in with "well you can get the client to tell the server when it ctrl-q's, so you know they quit willingly, and not reimburse them". Which is fine, except for things like the big red "block internet" button on my firewall. If I press that before pressing ctrl-q, the client isn't going to be telling anyone anything. Or I can just physically pull out my network cable. Either way, the server has no way of differentiating between a genuine drop, and a deliberate one.
QFT
|
Shenko Minara
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 19:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Shenko Minara The logs show everything, but the GM standing orders from CCP are to punish as much as they can but reimburse as little as possible.
:)
Our aim is to always assist players if at all possible. To do that we do need evidence however and sometimes there is nothing in the logs showing any problems.
No offence Wrangler, I appreciate that it's your job to put out such generic and appeasing statements, but that's just insulting our intelligence. GMs are there to right the wrongs, but all they actually manage to do is show a united front of apathy. My dealings with them are sparse since I don't petition a lot, but when you can force them outside of template replies all they demonstate is a lack of knowledge of either the game or computer systems in general.
Anyone that deals with the GMs in this game for any period of time comes to the same conclusion. Don't believe me? Read the forums...well, at least the posts that haven't been moderated away. -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you. |
Fzoul
KAOS. Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 19:30:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Shenko Minara The logs show everything, but the GM standing orders from CCP are to punish as much as they can but reimburse as little as possible.
:)
Our aim is to always assist players if at all possible. To do that we do need evidence however and sometimes there is nothing in the logs showing any problems.
That being the case, there should be SOMETHING that shows the fact that I HAD a full set of implants before the last patch and I DON'T now.
Regardless of that "fact", common courtesy (even mildly good customer service) would say that you would have at least looked at my petition opened a month ago - maybe even put a comment or two in there.
Perhaps I ask too much.
|
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 19:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Evil Edna well during the big desync bug time i petitioned a few of losses due to the desync bug, some responses were 'logs show nothing' some where 'here have ship back'
makes ya wonder
Well, that's the tricky thing. Just as the server has no way of knowing what's caused you to stop responding, it's difficult for the client to know whether they're seeing mucked-up stuff because the server is confused, or because things got mangled after they left the server.
In the specific example of desync, I would guess that there were some event sequences that were almost certain to cause a desync, and other desyncs were happening for unknown reasons. Both desyncs would look exactly the same to the client. In the first case, the GM would be able to confirm with adequate certainty that you would have been desync'ed in that situation by seeing that you underwent the known problematic event sequence, and reimburse you. In the second case, they would have no way to verify your claim, and have no choice but to refuse reimbursement. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Lindvere
Reikoku Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 19:45:00 -
[28]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Shenko Minara The logs show everything, but the GM standing orders from CCP are to punish as much as they can but reimburse as little as possible.
:)
Our aim is to always assist players if at all possible. To do that we do need evidence however and sometimes there is nothing in the logs showing any problems.
Sometimes? - The amount of ships i've lost to lag/bugs/issues with the server and -never- had one reimbursed, is just not funny.
|
Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter. Vae Victis.
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 20:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Surreptitious So in other words only those seeking reimbursement will have potentially flawed logs. But if you did something wrong/illegal the logs will always show perfect information.
Sounds about right.
Syrup
The events involved in this exploit are very clearly defined, and can be described by very specific event triggers that will be logged.
The majority of reimbursement petitions are due to lag/disconnects. There are many causes of this that will not manifest itself on the server at all. Your computer may well have crashed, or the internet routing between you and the server may well have started sending your packets into a black hole. That you were genuinely unable to play due to technical issues will be obvious to you. But the server has no way of knowing that. All the server sees is that you're no longer sending it instructions or responses. It has no way of knowing why. For all it knows, you've been eaten by a purple-headed monster from the planet Zog.
Making the assumption: "You didn't send any commands for X minutes before your destruction, so you must have crashed, here's your ship back", would open the reimbursement system to widespread abuse. It would make the pvp aggression timers pointless, because you could still ctrl-q and claim you crashed, safe in the knowledge that you'll be given your ship back regardless of what happens during your aggression timer period.
At this point someone usually chimes in with "well you can get the client to tell the server when it ctrl-q's, so you know they quit willingly, and not reimburse them". Which is fine, except for things like the big red "block internet" button on my firewall. If I press that before pressing ctrl-q, the client isn't going to be telling anyone anything. Or I can just physically pull out my network cable. Either way, the server has no way of differentiating between a genuine drop, and a deliberate one.
concentrated truth.
Alot of People still seem to think that the internet is just this black box thing that directly connects you to where you want to go. Then, all lag, disconnects, problems are CCP's fault, despite the fact that they are half a world away, with a hurricane between them and the servers.
I killed a nano curse with a geddon with no warp scram. He claimed lag (i believed him, he aggressed me, but then never launched drones or changed direction) but I had no lag whatsoever. Obviously, this was NOT a server problem, and any petition by him would show nothing in the logs. There was just a perfectly timed blip on the Series Of Tubes(tm) for his route to london.
Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
|
Kurtis Lowe
|
Posted - 2008.01.09 20:15:00 -
[30]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Shenko Minara The logs show everything, but the GM standing orders from CCP are to punish as much as they can but reimburse as little as possible.
:)
Our aim is to always assist players if at all possible. To do that we do need evidence however and sometimes there is nothing in the logs showing any problems.
so when the server node i'm in drops and my fleet disconnects during a fight and we lose ships while the pilots are logging back in (this has happened) there's no log ? oh right the node crashed, prob the logs too i guess. NO ONE was reimbursed when this happened last year. nothing could be PROVED in the SERVER-SIDE logs :D desync i say !!!!!!!! FTL
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |