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Demosthenes Citium
Lyceum Cyrene
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Posted - 2008.01.10 09:58:00 -
[1]
Before I move on to the main topic, let me speak about myself for a bit. IÆve been a longtime EVE player, and I want to spread some ideas which IÆve come to. My ideas are by no means right or wrong, just my personal views. The reason I am posting on this character is I do not wish my allegiance to detract from my message. I plan to post whenever I feel I have something worth posting.
Overwhelming Force
Mercenary Coalition is a very successful alliance; there is no doubt about that. Their success was built upon an early strategy of focusing on capitals and supercaps. They realized early on that instead of a conventional BS fleet, they could accomplish their goals by deploying large numbers of capitals with a small number of support.
Everybody knows of MCÆs success of hotdropping, and to many this also created much annoyance. The annoyance was warranted, but the annoyed were at the receiving end of a strategy that everyone soon would be following. As much as I dislike analogies, German Panzer divisions that focused tremendous force on one point of a line epitomize MCÆs strategy. The ability to deploy carriers with spider tanking, and also retaining the capability of jumping out was brilliant. Nobody had done it on such a grand and consistent scale before.
The Future in a Void
By focusing on capitals, Mercenary CoalitionÆs capital fleet grew by leaps and bounds. However, MCÆs small player base would ultimately prove that they would never win an arms race. When a player possesses capitals and supercaps, the player can go no further. The buildtime and capital for a Titan, and also their limited use means the arms race ends with Motherships, at least in capital battles.
With a core of 500 players, it is no surprise that Mercenary Coalition begins to fall behind. Goonswarm, Tau Ceti Federation, Red Alliance, AAA, along with the rest of the Eve community all adapted and grew their own respective capital fleets. With enemies numbering in the thousands, and a capital ceiling, there was simply no way that Mercenary Coalition could maintain its lead. As one seeÆs today, Mercenary Coalition is no longer the impressive juggernaut it was. While still formidable, there is no way they can match their success of destroying D2 in the future, or ever at all.
Dissecting a Reputation
Everyone today would admit that Mercenary Coalition has quite a reputation. They have steamrolled many opponents, and fought in the trenches none-stop. However, one needs to break down their opponents to see Mercenary CoalitionÆs true effectiveness.
Mercenary CoalitionÆs grand claim to fame was the destruction of D2 and many of D2Æs allies. In what would be known as a cleansing of the North, Mercenary Coalition and friends took apart D2 as nobody thought they would. Impressive if one looks at the surface, but beneath the surface is what is interesting.
Dusk till Dawn is an old organization with a great deal of history. They were the powerhouse of the North, and effectively controlled the region through a series of NAPs and overwhelming threats of force. The problem with their approach, however, was their skill on the battlefield was never consistently conditioned. Many of the mistakes of their fleet losses and Titan losses were due to a lack of experience in warfare on the capital scale. With the disintegration of D2, one can also see the scale of their battlefield prowess. Mostly Harmless is an industrial powerhouse, Kraftwerk is more or less similar, and Evoke, a small alliance, remains the only potent pvp force.
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Demosthenes Citium
Lyceum Cyrene
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Posted - 2008.01.10 09:59:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Demosthenes Citium on 10/01/2008 10:00:44 So was Mercenary CoalitionÆs success in the North blown out of proportion? No, it was a success, you cannot deny that. It was also against a force that was superior numbers. The difference now, is that everybody has seen Mercenary CoalitionÆs strategy and adapted. Mercenary Coalition is held at its player-limit ceiling, and with no more bigger guns to upgrade to, they have remained somewhat stagnant. A True Test
The true test for Mercenary Coalition came when it found the enemies of Goonswarm, AAA, IAC, and Red Alliance. MC met its match with a force that could field the same firepower it could, on the same time zone and in the same systems. One can easily see the results of the conflict on various killboards. While both sides lost significant assets, Mercenary Coalition ultimately lost more war-time assets than any others. Losing supercaps, but specifically a Titan, was a blow to Mercenary Coalition that had not been accomplished before. Mercenary Coalition continued fighting, but soon after took a break from the conflict.
So the question becomes, what does Mercenary Coalition do next? They met their match, and it was painfully obvious that Mercenary Coalition would lose its momentum sooner rather than later. It is no surprise what their next move wasà
Tortugan Surprise
Mercenary Coalition moved and broke apart from Band of Brothers, forming instead a cooperation of alliances/corps which include KIA, Outbreak, Evoke and others. What would Mercenary Coalition gain from this? The time to develop a new strategy.
It was painfully obvious that if MC continued the fight in Catch, they would be on the receiving end more and more as they grew closer to the capital ceiling, while the enemy had no such limits. Pulling back to Period Basis, and incorporating a group of solid pvpers would give MC time and human capital to build momentum again. And so we are at today, where MC and friends have been involved in a bitter contest for Period Basis.
An Hourglass
The ball is now in Mercenary CoalitionÆs court. Mercenary Coalition needs a new strategy, something that can stop an enemy with superior numbers and a larger, more developable human capital base. It will be interesting to see if a new development occurs, but if not, I do not see events going well for the new PB cooperation. As a whole, the cooperation has strong pvpers but again, the capital ceiling is fast approaching due to their limited numbers. Unless the coalition of Goonswarm, Red, AAA, TCF, and others falls apart, Mercenary Coalition needs to work quickly and creatively to secure its future.
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Baxalusx
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:11:00 -
[3]
this is actually a really good post
mad props ---------
~THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS ICORION~ |
FOFOFOF
CRAPSTORM
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:12:00 -
[4]
tl;dr
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Promu
RABBLE-RABBLE Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:13:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Promu on 10/01/2008 10:13:57 impressive post. Nice one something worth reading for a change Props!
Promu
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ChoppinBrocolli
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:15:00 -
[6]
MC's Titan kill was mainly the work of AAA+RA. GS especially had nothing to do with it.
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Fenella
Caldari Dangermouse Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:16:00 -
[7]
Theres another 'hard cap' that you fail to mention, that of number of players able to operate in one system.
If MC sticks a 300 player fleet in a system, it doesnt matter that the opponents have 4000 players ready to defend, because they can not be applied.
Lag and node crashes limit how effective a multi-thousand player alliance can be.
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FOFOFOF
CRAPSTORM
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:23:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Fenella Theres another 'hard cap' that you fail to mention, that of number of players able to operate in one system.
If MC sticks a 300 player fleet in a system, it doesnt matter that the opponents have 4000 players ready to defend, because they can not be applied.
Lag and node crashes limit how effective a multi-thousand player alliance can be.
QFT
what good does it to have more ppl than your enemy if you cant use it? Just like 300
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Heptameron
Gallente Seven. Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:25:00 -
[9]
fairly good post... but some bits are kind of skewed, but then maybe I didn't have all the facts at the time.
From what I saw on the ground (ex rzr pilot btw) the MC attack on the north happened at our first failed attempt at getting a foothold in querious. D2 regrouped back north to take them on but the *****s had started to appear. The ferocity of the MC attack was as unexpected as D2's inability to deal with it. Most of the other northern partners stayed in the south at first, and it wasn't until D2 started taking some serious losses that we were approached to return home and give them a hand.
Unfortunately by that time it was probably too late, a foot hold in the north had been established, MC had also recruited some 'partners' (i'll refrain from using the word pets to avoid flameage :p) to support their huge cap fleet. So in fact the idea that MC had a large cap fleet/small support fleet is kind of inaccurate, their personal support fleet may have been small but they had recruited several hundred other pilots to provide that role, of course with the added bonus that they had been made an offer to keep the areas they took.
But that is likely where MC's/BoB's mistake was made in 'conquering' the north. Ok, agreed D2 died a death i personally would find hard to take given the force they had been previously, that of slowly dying from within rather than be beaten on the battlefield. But what was missed was the 'brothers in arms' friendship forged between other northern entities, sometimes regarded as the poor relatives of D2. The tenacity for instance of my old alliance was awesome to be involved in, moving fighting assets to our neighbours and friends MM, while running 23/7 op's to the new inhabitants of our old home with absolutely no doubt that we could take it back because now the cap blob had gone on to new pastures. Those MC left behind were simply not good enough to keep the area they had been given.
Ok well so i digress a wee bit, but MC's next move? Well the old MC is gone... it's current shape shouldn't even be compared to what they were 8 months or so ago. Now they are sitting with some new, very well known partners, that not only can provide their own caps, but the much needed EXPERIENCED PvP support for the mahoosive cap blob MC themselves have. What their longer term plans are with their new friends, assuming BoB is dealt with is a bigger question imho. The whole Tortuga thing reminds me a little of when 5 was formed post JQA days (im ex JQA as well :p), lots of pvpers grouping together, doing nasty things to a lot of people all over eve... aaaahhh the good old days :p
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:30:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 10:30:56 MC used to Hot drop invincible motherships vs fleets that could in no way kill it. The north did not have enough capital firepower to defend against carrier/MS so lost out. This was like running some kind of lvl4 as no way could the north do anything due to greedy northern alliances not investing in serious capital fleets.
Whenever there was any genuine risk to Capitals, MC was always out of the clear. Having a bunch of carriers are good, but against blobs of dreads or smartbomb motherships, even 300 carriers would not win.
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Demosthenes Citium
Lyceum Cyrene
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:48:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ChoppinBrocolli MC's Titan kill was mainly the work of AAA+RA. GS especially had nothing to do with it.
You are correct.
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Demosthenes Citium
Lyceum Cyrene
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:51:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 10:30:56 Having a bunch of carriers are good, but against blobs of dreads or smartbomb motherships, even 300 carriers would not win.
I disagree, fighters and lag are better than dreads with the current state of game mechanics. Carriers are also not stuck in space due to siege mode.
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 10:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium
Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 10:30:56 Having a bunch of carriers are good, but against blobs of dreads or smartbomb motherships, even 300 carriers would not win.
I disagree, fighters and lag are better than dreads with the current state of game mechanics. Carriers are also not stuck in space due to siege mode.
A dread could run a tank, with a smartbomb capship providing cover. MC are very carrier heavy and reley on fighters a lot, though they have a small dreadnaught force.
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maGz
The Hoodie Mafia Cosa Nostra.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 11:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Whenever there was any genuine risk to Capitals, MC was always out of the clear.
Unfortunately this has always been the case with MC caps. I'm not saying that going suicidal with a 50+ cap fleet is a brilliant idea, however MC has always lacked balls when it came to deploying their caps against capable opponents.
PS. The whole BoB thing might have changed that, although I believe any loss of MC caps down in PB is more due to MC being caught off guard than them actually putting their caps at risk. ____________
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Jonny JoJo
Amarr The Imperial Guards Darkness Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 11:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: maGz
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
Whenever there was any genuine risk to Capitals, MC was always out of the clear.
Unfortunately this has always been the case with MC caps. I'm not saying that going suicidal with a 50+ cap fleet is a brilliant idea, however MC has always lacked balls when it came to deploying their caps against capable opponents.
PS. The whole BoB thing might have changed that, although I believe any loss of MC caps down in PB is more due to MC being caught off guard than them actually putting their caps at risk.
I guess thats true. In the north and in other contracts, they only used caps when they were invincible I-Win button. Against bob, which has a legendary cap killing record, I doubt they will ever use them.
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Gidien Kane
Amarr OneHundredRed
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Posted - 2008.01.10 11:05:00 -
[16]
You don't make money in the mercenary profession by showing balls and MC are extremely good mercenaries Please do not edit moderator remarks in your signature - Kreul Intentions |
Havoc G
Quam Singulari The Church.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 11:21:00 -
[17]
Nice post.. Was a good read.
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maGz
The Hoodie Mafia Cosa Nostra.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 11:24:00 -
[18]
Edited by: maGz on 10/01/2008 11:26:42
Originally by: Gidien Kane You don't make money in the mercenary profession by showing balls and MC are extremely good mercenaries
Although your comment definately has merit, I do believe that a complete lack of "showing balls", ie. what happened when -A- entered the Prohibition conflict, can be just as bad for your mercenary image as losing 10 caps in a proper fight.
EDIT: And yes - I do believe that the image of mercenaries is important. In the end, without showing what you are capable of, how would you expect anyone to pay for your services? ____________
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Xtreem
Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc. Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 11:51:00 -
[19]
cant say iv enjoyed reading many posts on this forum, but this was well written, nice one
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Angor
The JORG Corporation Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 11:55:00 -
[20]
Nice read, well written.
Cant say it isnt stuff we already know tho. _______________________________ [ 2007.06.07 21:07:22 ] FrankyWave > ransom me guys I am joining XElas !!! |
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Le Cardinal
ECP Rogues The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 12:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: maGz Edited by: maGz on 10/01/2008 11:26:42
Originally by: Gidien Kane You don't make money in the mercenary profession by showing balls and MC are extremely good mercenaries
Although your comment definately has merit, I do believe that a complete lack of "showing balls", ie. what happened when -A- entered the Prohibition conflict, can be just as bad for your mercenary image as losing 10 caps in a proper fight.
EDIT: And yes - I do believe that the image of mercenaries is important. In the end, without showing what you are capable of, how would you expect anyone to pay for your services?
I dont agree that MC didnt show balls. At least from my experience vs them in Fade they showed more balls than most alliances do/did. At times to the point of arrogance :) But unfortunately D2 was falling apart within at that point and we werent able to muster the proper capfleet to kill at least one MS. And they used those MS's very effective. So imo they have earned their respect as a proper pvp force on the battlefield.
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Nhaz
THE FINAL STAND Divine 0rder
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Posted - 2008.01.10 12:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Heptameron
Those MC left behind were simply not good enough to keep the area they had been given.
would you care to revise that statement? it took 27 alliances 2000+ pilots and 5 months of pretty much solid combat to pry mpire and fatal out. razor tri and MM took nothing but losses untill they created a giant napfest and did lets bring everything and the kitchen sink attack.
yes off topic but lets try to remember what really happened there. _____________________________________________
It's NOT paranoia, If they REALLY ARE out to get you! |
Cpt Pugwash
Spartan Hoplites Rare Faction
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Posted - 2008.01.10 12:43:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Nhaz
Originally by: Heptameron
Those MC left behind were simply not good enough to keep the area they had been given.
would you care to revise that statement? it took 27 alliances 2000+ pilots and 5 months of pretty much solid combat to pry mpire and fatal out. razor tri and MM took nothing but losses untill they created a giant napfest and did lets bring everything and the kitchen sink attack.
yes off topic but lets try to remember what really happened there.
Who holds the North now?
Not Mpire/Fatal etc.
Therefore, use any excuse you like, they were not good enough.
Movies: Make Mine a Bob Light
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Darklin Eldaris
Prophets Of a Damned Universe
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Posted - 2008.01.10 12:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo
A dread could run a tank, with a smartbomb capship providing cover. MC are very carrier heavy and reley on fighters a lot, though they have a small dreadnaught force.
Small is really not the word for their dread fleet.
It;s just not. Mayber smaller than their carrier fleet, but definitely not small.
Whoever says MC are in trouble and "behind in the race" are officially off their respective rockers.
They have surrounded themselves with the exact right type of players in the new Tortugan Alliance. Those guys are not to be effed with.
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Darklin Eldaris
Prophets Of a Damned Universe
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Posted - 2008.01.10 12:48:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cpt Pugwash
Originally by: Nhaz
Originally by: Heptameron
Those MC left behind were simply not good enough to keep the area they had been given.
would you care to revise that statement? it took 27 alliances 2000+ pilots and 5 months of pretty much solid combat to pry mpire and fatal out. razor tri and MM took nothing but losses untill they created a giant napfest and did lets bring everything and the kitchen sink attack.
yes off topic but lets try to remember what really happened there.
Who holds the North now?
Not Mpire/Fatal etc.
Therefore, use any excuse you like, they were not good enough.
I will back this dude up, RZR not being able to remove M.PIRE by themselves is uber sad. I knew a fat chunk of dudes from M.Pire, and they were all really just carebears with attitudes. Was a sad sight to watch them repeatedly beat the old north back until they put 8 alliances together to go for it.
Mad props to M.PIRE for that.
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Nethers
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.01.10 13:03:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Nethers on 10/01/2008 13:07:09
Apart from the nice formatting, and nice big vocabulary this post is no better than all the other crap posted in here.
So let me get this straight. MC leaders decided to disband with one of the biggest (if not biggest) PvP entity in EvE because all of MC's pilots now had skills to fly capitals??
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 13:12:00 -
[27]
Nice post.
Originally by: ISD Cortes You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females. |
Lem2J
Black Sea Industries Cult of War
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Posted - 2008.01.10 13:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Nethers Edited by: Nethers on 10/01/2008 13:07:09
Apart from the nice formatting, and nice big vocabulary this post is no better than all the other crap posted in here.
So let me get this straight. MC leaders decided to disband with one of the biggest (if not biggest) PvP entity in EvE because all of MC's pilots now had skills to fly capitals??
Errm i didnt read it like that.. and post with your main
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Vasq
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.01.10 13:23:00 -
[29]
Not sure how realistic this post is ... but it was very well written
Smoke me a kipper, i'll be back for breakfast! |
Fitz Chivalry
eXceed Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 13:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium And so we are at today, where MC and friends have been involved in a bitter contest for Period Basis.
Bitter contest with whom?
A few nights ago we had some of our now pretty regular skirmishes with MC and pals around I6M area (and good fun they are too and when I went to get a mail from their board I saw that the only losses they had taken all night were from us.
If you look at the Tortugans killboards most of the kills are on random ratters and roamers, not fleet related. Hell, outbreak had twice as many kills on nubs in lo sec than they had around PB when I last looked at it.
Not to say this is not a good post overall though :)
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.10 13:31:00 -
[31]
Originally by: maGz Edited by: maGz on 10/01/2008 11:26:42
Originally by: Gidien Kane You don't make money in the mercenary profession by showing balls and MC are extremely good mercenaries
Although your comment definately has merit, I do believe that a complete lack of "showing balls", ie. what happened when -A- entered the Prohibition conflict, can be just as bad for your mercenary image as losing 10 caps in a proper fight.
EDIT: And yes - I do believe that the image of mercenaries is important. In the end, without showing what you are capable of, how would you expect anyone to pay for your services?
the image of the mercenary is as important as the ability of coming with relatively low losses in a conflict.
Seleene thought that not applying caps on the battlefield vs AAA was good enough. she made a mistake, but that's not something that kills the image.
in this line of business we have to deal with thin line between both, and how much we lose in a contract also contributes to our image. more than how much we kill.
hell I even dare to say that the merc business is the only place where K:D ratio has some sort of meaning. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Ask Unbeatable
Tenacious Danes
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Posted - 2008.01.10 13:40:00 -
[32]
Nice post
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DiaBlo UK
North Siders Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 14:00:00 -
[33]
Excelent post well made. makes trawling through all the rest of the crap wort it. Don't agree with all of your opinions, but i was involved in none of it, so my opinions don't really count. Thanks for making CAOD still worth reading.
<- You |
Nethers
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.01.10 14:05:00 -
[34]
This is my main, i ditched the other 2 last year.
So what does this post mean? anyone care to explain or are you still drooling
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DrakeStone
Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2008.01.10 14:21:00 -
[35]
Edited by: DrakeStone on 10/01/2008 14:25:05
I think the prime mover of this post reveals that reinvention and reassessment is a neccessary evolution in Eve. However, to be pragmatic about it, with the cap on system capacity, all an alliance needs is two things: several hundred pvp'ers that are always freshly motivated AND the diplomacy to manage their number of concurrent enemies. MC in my estimation still has both of these qualities. However, one advantage a larger alliance has is that the "several hundred" pvpers needed at any given moment might be different people each time. Sure, one could argue that the longer the same team mates play together, the better they get but in the end I believe it is burn-out that typically leads to the demise of a corp or alliance. With a larger team size, you can always cycle new folks in, especially with the time zone factor being important.
To me, strategic decisions OFF the battlefield play a more important role, or at the very least, as important a role, as those on.
Practically speaking though, MC did what it had to do. It got out of the path of a wrecking ball.. evolution defined.
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Urgomar
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 14:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Grimpak
hell I even dare to say that the merc business is the only place where K:D ratio has some sort of meaning.
I have to disagree with that, if I hire a mercenary, I'll judge his efficiency by the amount of damage he causes. I'd rather have him kill 100 enemy ships and lost 100 doing so than kill 50 for no losses.
I pay him to deal damage, staying alive is his problem, not mine! Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.10 14:54:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Grimpak on 10/01/2008 14:55:01
Originally by: Urgomar I pay him to deal damage, staying alive is his problem, not mine!
exactly, but if we have a K:D ratio of 1:1, then we would be out of business since we would be out of ships REALLY fast.
the damage we do is important to the client.
the damage we suffer is important to our wallets.
and what does driver a merc to fight? exactly. profit.
no profit, no point on fighting. ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Urgomar
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 14:56:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Urgomar on 10/01/2008 14:59:19 Sure, but mercs are expendable anyway :)
If I hire a merc, I hire the most lethal, dont care if he disbands afterwards.
Clients shouldnt judge Mercs by their kill ratio. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
N'olive
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.01.10 14:56:00 -
[39]
Edited by: N''olive on 10/01/2008 14:58:00
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium Unless the coalition of Goonswarm, Red, AAA, TCF, and others falls apart, Mercenary Coalition needs to work quickly and creatively to secure its future.
Don't worry the Civil War of the south between GS, RA, TCF and co is already planned. Since 2006. _____________________________________________________ Olivier C., providing fleet support since 1902. - My Eve videos |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.10 15:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Urgomar Edited by: Urgomar on 10/01/2008 14:59:19 Sure, but mercs are expendable anyway :)
If I hire a merc, I hire the most lethal, dont care if he disbands afterwards.
Clients shouldnt judge Mercs by their kill ratio.
...and that's why we have a hard life ---
planetary interaction idea! |
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Urgomar
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 15:15:00 -
[41]
Its the life you chose !
If I start caring about the people I hire, I'll see them as allies where I prolly should'nt.
Then if they turn against me "a la MC style" everybody will say "they're mercs, what did you expect".
Merc need independance, and I understand that, but with it must come detachment. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Simariliia
Spartan Industries Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 15:57:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Simariliia on 10/01/2008 15:59:13 good read, even Im not the person to tell if tis correct or not.
But he got 1 thing i have thought of myself, and thats more and more of eve gets more isk to capitals, making the difference between rich and poor alliances smaller and smaller. it getting harder and harder to be "outstanding" pilots in eve due to its harder and harder to do any I-Win buttons:p
I would say that players are a bigger asset in eve than anything else. Share number is getting more and more important. unless u have a really large player base, most corps and in the end alliance have a limited lifespan. Specially the heavy demanding once, ppl burn out and go other places after a while. like ure moving ure sofa around in ure appartment to make it "new" :p
¿
-------Made in Thailand---- -------Living in Norway---- |
Silvestri
Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.10 16:14:00 -
[43]
I personally say let MC keep Period Base. Now that they're shooting BoB I'm happy. I mean if you have the entire south united...what fun are you going to have next? I wish ISS would come back and we could give them all the outposts just to build off of and shooty shooty again. MC gives Eve a "wild card" element that w/out them...could turn dull. I'm actually worried stuff might turn dull. Given...RSF accomplished what RSF put out to do. But has anyone ever just stopped there? You always keep going until someone stops you.....good or bad of the future...you live the moment.... curious what the future brings....
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Jasese
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.01.10 16:18:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Silvestri I personally say let MC keep Period Base. Now that they're shooting BoB I'm happy. I mean if you have the entire south united...what fun are you going to have next? I wish ISS would come back and we could give them all the outposts just to build off of and shooty shooty again. MC gives Eve a "wild card" element that w/out them...could turn dull. I'm actually worried stuff might turn dull. Given...RSF accomplished what RSF put out to do. But has anyone ever just stopped there? You always keep going until someone stops you.....good or bad of the future...you live the moment.... curious what the future brings....
Letting mc keep period basis is the stupidest thing the coalition could do.
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xRevolveRx
Masters of Mayhem
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Posted - 2008.01.10 16:46:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium Mercenary Coalition needs a new strategy
I thought they decided the new strategy is to fight with BoB and hope the 50,000 other people forget about them and their new pals. If that isnt working what else is their to do?
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.10 16:50:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Urgomar Its the life you chose !
If I start caring about the people I hire, I'll see them as allies where I prolly should'nt.
Then if they turn against me "a la MC style" everybody will say "they're mercs, what did you expect".
Merc need independance, and I understand that, but with it must come detachment.
I can tell you as a merc, that while we honor our commitments, you cannot expect of us to become allies.
a business partner today is a target tomorrow. that is how we are and how we survive in this world ---
planetary interaction idea! |
xRevolveRx
Masters of Mayhem
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Posted - 2008.01.10 16:59:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Cpt Pugwash
Originally by: Nhaz
Originally by: Heptameron
Those MC left behind were simply not good enough to keep the area they had been given.
would you care to revise that statement? it took 27 alliances 2000+ pilots and 5 months of pretty much solid combat to pry mpire and fatal out. razor tri and MM took nothing but losses untill they created a giant napfest and did lets bring everything and the kitchen sink attack.
yes off topic but lets try to remember what really happened there.
Who holds the North now?
Not Mpire/Fatal etc.
Therefore, use any excuse you like, they were not good enough.
I think what he is trying to say is that the guys that took that space from mpire and fatal cant do anything on their own without overwelming support. If they have so much trouble against small alliances like that, what are they gonna do if BoB were to go back home to BKG if they decided to leave delve?
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Suittam
Gallente Elite Storm Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.01.10 17:06:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Suittam on 10/01/2008 17:07:37 Interesting points here, regarding things affecting most alliances rather than just MC and co.
I tend to agree with Simariliia, in that the player base of a corp or alliance has more of an impact on it's success than how many Caps/Super Caps it can field.
Ironically, the very selective recruitment that MC and all the top PvP alliances/corps have could be the one thing that eventually hold them back from achieving their objectives; especially with the advent of entities such as Goonswarm (and there will be others that follow them) where predominantly the numbers they can field count more than what they can fly.
If the Eve player base continues to grow, then it wont matter how many skill points your characters have, if the opposing force can throw 5 times the numbers back at you. At the moment this effect is being artificially watered down due to limitations of the servers/code. If/when they resolve this, we could see a very different outcome to these types of wars.
-S-
Edit* spelling
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Hitme Harder
HERRO KITTY
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Posted - 2008.01.10 17:54:00 -
[49]
Just a question. To beat a fighter blob vs dreads, could you not employ stealth bombers to drop a EM then exp bombs onto the fighter blob's primary target?
Kaboom there goes the fighter swarm?
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gordon cain
Minmatar x13 When Fat Kids Attack
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:02:00 -
[50]
Edited by: gordon cain on 10/01/2008 18:03:13
Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 10/01/2008 10:30:56 MC used to Hot drop invincible motherships vs fleets that could in no way kill it. The north did not have enough capital firepower to defend against carrier/MS so lost out. This was like running some kind of lvl4 as no way could the north do anything due to greedy northern alliances not investing in serious capital fleets.
Whenever there was any genuine risk to Capitals, MC was always out of the clear. Having a bunch of carriers are good, but against blobs of dreads or smartbomb motherships, even 300 carriers would not win.
Thats not true. MC may have had lots of capital at that time, but the "North" had that number also even Titan at that point. The only thing they didnt have were teamwork. Unlucky for us they learned that eventually
Gordon Cain
Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience. |
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Urgomar
Four Rings Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:03:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Grimpak
I can tell you as a merc, that while we honor our commitments, you cannot expect of us to become allies.
a business partner today is a target tomorrow. that is how we are and how we survive in this world
Exactly, that's why no clients should care about your well being.
In fact, if I use a Merc group and dont plan to use it in the foreseeable future, I should even try to have him suffer losses, so if he's hired against me his might will be reduced :P Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Krullzorzz
Minmatar CYBERDYMEBAG INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:10:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Krullzorzz on 10/01/2008 18:12:11 Thoughtful and well developed, but fundamentally incorrect. You dont understand mc's internal structure, or its true lack of a "ceiling"..unless you count the number of players in the alliance as a ceiling. Additionally, you fail to understand the scope of its logistics and carebear abilities.
The only cap for the MC is when every player in the alliance that can fly caps is in a supercap.
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Kraven Kor
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:13:00 -
[53]
Where's Locke? ----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:18:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Urgomar
Originally by: Grimpak
I can tell you as a merc, that while we honor our commitments, you cannot expect of us to become allies.
a business partner today is a target tomorrow. that is how we are and how we survive in this world
Exactly, that's why no clients should care about your well being.
In fact, if I use a Merc group and dont plan to use it in the foreseeable future, I should even try to have him suffer losses, so if he's hired against me his might will be reduced :P
ooooh you're an evil one.
gotta ask the boss not to accept any work offers from you ---
planetary interaction idea! |
Kiyirari
Sick and Twisted
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:25:00 -
[55]
Well when ya think about it BoB kept Mc's OP safe while away on merc stuff, with BOB kicked out onto the street so to speak. Mc needed the new stratergy eg new friends alliance/corps to act as guard dogs for home system as to keep a capital production yard etc 0.0 industrial type stuff on the go. Hence the new friend etc, from what i understand you may find the odd specialist corp within the new allies to MC who do work independlently from the main fleet.
No stratergy here, just plain ol survival in the bitter twisted space of PB, if their is any new cards up the sleeve it will be in the hands of there new allies...
Revenge is my god and my guns are her angels |
Silvestri
Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:27:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jasese
Originally by: Silvestri I personally say let MC keep Period Base. Now that they're shooting BoB I'm happy. I mean if you have the entire south united...what fun are you going to have next? I wish ISS would come back and we could give them all the outposts just to build off of and shooty shooty again. MC gives Eve a "wild card" element that w/out them...could turn dull. I'm actually worried stuff might turn dull. Given...RSF accomplished what RSF put out to do. But has anyone ever just stopped there? You always keep going until someone stops you.....good or bad of the future...you live the moment.... curious what the future brings....
Letting mc keep period basis is the stupidest thing the coalition could do.
I agree with you. As for the campaign it is....I'm thinking more for Eve. If/when MC is removed....I just wonder what will the south be like. No BoB...No Fix...No MC...No Rise... Just a thought....
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Omeega
UA Industry Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:37:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Silvestri No Rise...
lol :)
Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
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xRevolveRx
Masters of Mayhem
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:45:00 -
[58]
Edited by: xRevolveRx on 10/01/2008 18:46:48
Originally by: Silvestri
Originally by: Jasese
Originally by: Silvestri I personally say let MC keep Period Base. Now that they're shooting BoB I'm happy....
Letting mc keep period basis is the stupidest thing the coalition could do.
I agree with you. As for the campaign it is....I'm thinking more for Eve. If/when MC is removed....I just wonder what will the south be like. No BoB...No Fix...No MC...No Rise... Just a thought....
You would be surrouded by goonswarm and company with nothing but blue all around IAC and AAA space. Sounds like fun.
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Ichi Hon
Gallente Madhatters Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:50:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Jasese
Letting mc keep period basis is the stupidest thing the coalition could do.
Does anyone actually think they would? I always just thought it was a given that if RSF beats BoB they will take out Tortuga.
I mean...thousands of bored pvpers......group with previous strong ties to BoB living in ex-BoB space......same MC that attacked IAC among others....it sorta seems like a no-brainer for the RSF.
In my opinion if there is one thing BoB can be sure of, it's that if they go down MC's going to follow pretty shortly thereafter.
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Cockroach
Amarr Kinetic Vector Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2008.01.10 18:58:00 -
[60]
Personally i got a lot of respect for MC, fought against em once or twice.
I was kinda dissapointed when they left Bob in the lurch, it was kinda like saying 'omg, were gonna be on the losing side of this one, we cant have MC ever seen to be on a losing side.' I'm probly wrong about that.....maybe?
But bein an old timer i liked the days when it was just sharks n body count workin together like a well oiled killin machine.
Good post anyway
'Have we sent the 'dont shoot us we're pathetic' transmission yet?' |
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Orree
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:17:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Orree on 10/01/2008 19:20:51
Originally by: Nhaz
Originally by: Heptameron
Those MC left behind were simply not good enough to keep the area they had been given.
would you care to revise that statement? it took 27 alliances 2000+ pilots and 5 months of pretty much solid combat to pry mpire and fatal out. razor tri and MM took nothing but losses untill they created a giant napfest and did lets bring everything and the kitchen sink attack.
yes off topic but lets try to remember what really happened there.
Again with the nonsense about "eleventy alliances" and thousands of players. The number of significant participants was well short of your number and the "new north" was not just M.Pire and Fatal. It's enough already. Yes, they were outnumbered quite often.
With all due respect to skill of of our former adversaries, I think it's a bit disingenuous to say we "took nothing but losses." I'd say that all of the major "old north" participants fared very well in total against our foes. This isn't to say we didn't take losses, we most certainly did and it was quite often due to the obvious skill of our adversaries. However, I don't believe it is true that among the major participants, we lost more than we killed.
In the end, as Puggy said, the thing that matters is the "new north" is gone. The only north is still there until such time as someone gets what it takes together to remove them. No one is safe from that...no one is immune. It's just a matter of time before it happens to just about anyone.
All of this notwithstanding, the OP was an interesting read. Thanks to the author for taking the time.
"How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli |
Heptameron
Gallente Seven. Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:33:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Nhaz
Originally by: Heptameron
Those MC left behind were simply not good enough to keep the area they had been given.
would you care to revise that statement? it took 27 alliances 2000+ pilots and 5 months of pretty much solid combat to pry mpire and fatal out. razor tri and MM took nothing but losses untill they created a giant napfest and did lets bring everything and the kitchen sink attack.
yes off topic but lets try to remember what really happened there.
Well unusually for me i thought ok... maybe I'm wrong and i should retract my post. But just for the hell of it and thx to razors killboard history I thought I would check just who the hell we were fighting back then.
We failed bigtime against MC's cap blob, i seem to remember 2/3 titans, 4/5 MS and an absolute bucketload of carriers and dreads topping out at 140+ with a few extras from their allies. Oh yea i've digressed again, i was about to put some reality biscuits into your cookie jar...
COW/FIX/M.Pire/STK/****/fatal/youwhat/aftermath/M.Corp/Storm armada/anarchy/vigilance/firestar all appear on razor death mails. I only checked a couple in some of the biggest engagements, these were mostly post MC's spanking us. The napfest you and so many others throw around like confetti is sometimes just someones elses skewed view on eve life, forgive me if this is another erroneous peice of info but surely BoB's old area of influence and it's residents/friends/blue list was bigger than anthing eve had seen in its day?
So actually no, i'm not going to revise my statement, in fact I think i just reinforced it, btw also left you a slice of humble pie with the reality cookies.......
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Murina
Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:51:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Heptameron
Originally by: Nhaz
Originally by: Heptameron
Those MC left behind were simply not good enough to keep the area they had been given.
would you care to revise that statement? it took 27 alliances 2000+ pilots and 5 months of pretty much solid combat to pry mpire and fatal out. razor tri and MM took nothing but losses untill they created a giant napfest and did lets bring everything and the kitchen sink attack.
yes off topic but lets try to remember what really happened there.
Well unusually for me i thought ok... maybe I'm wrong and i should retract my post. But just for the hell of it and thx to razors killboard history I thought I would check just who the hell we were fighting back then.
We failed bigtime against MC's cap blob, i seem to remember 2/3 titans, 4/5 MS and an absolute bucketload of carriers and dreads topping out at 140+ with a few extras from their allies. Oh yea i've digressed again, i was about to put some reality biscuits into your cookie jar...
COW/FIX/M.Pire/STK/****/fatal/youwhat/aftermath/M.Corp/Storm armada/anarchy/vigilance/firestar all appear on razor death mails. I only checked a couple in some of the biggest engagements, these were mostly post MC's spanking us. The napfest you and so many others throw around like confetti is sometimes just someones elses skewed view on eve life, forgive me if this is another erroneous peice of info but surely BoB's old area of influence and it's residents/friends/blue list was bigger than anthing eve had seen in its day?
So actually no, i'm not going to revise my statement, in fact I think i just reinforced it, btw also left you a slice of humble pie with the reality cookies.......
I fought on the fatal and co side to take the area and i fought with TRI later to remove fatal and co and the reason they lost was because they stopped the offensive and turtled up. The way eve works is that if your defending your losing and fatal and co had way to many carebears who wanted to make isk in 0.0 instead of fighting in it.
They stopped moving forwards after MC left they had a few months of roaming gangs but a big thrust from MM and co started some time in september including TRI on the 29th of august. The attack was initialy poorly planned considering the numbers that MM and co brought to the fight and due to this TRI decided to attack the outlying allies and let the northern nap deal with fatal/mpire/cow.
A few weeks later the northern nap started a sustained attack on bkg and after a while of this mpire bailed and the new north fell around the start of october.
FATAL then disbanded on the 5th of october
SIG;
Im designed to have the biggest jubblies in eve but they do not fit on my avatar :( |
Rashka Fireball
Amarr Bellum Aeternus
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Posted - 2008.01.10 20:01:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Rashka Fireball on 10/01/2008 20:02:12
Originally by: Krullzorzz
Thoughtful and well developed, but fundamentally incorrect. You dont understand mc's internal structure, or its true lack of a "ceiling"..unless you count the number of players in the alliance as a ceiling. Additionally, you fail to understand the scope of its logistics and carebear abilities.
The only cap for the MC is when every player in the alliance that can fly caps is in a supercap.
I think that is the cap being referred to in the OP.
At a theoretical level all alliances have the same cap. On a practical level can MC attain a higher percentage of super caps to members? According to you, yes. Fine, letÆs assume thatÆs true.
Due to their restrictive policies on recruitment, they will always have a significantly smaller alliance than the typical power alliance. 500 odd members all in super caps wonÆt overpower a 3000 member alliance with 20% of its members in super caps. Also, speaking practically, itÆs hard to maintain a solid and effective fleet, let alone run an industrial and logistic wing if everyone is imprisoned in super caps. Relying on allies for a support and logistic fleet may not be the best way to insure oneÆs longevity (they can turn on you with a single post in CAOD.) This being the case MCÆs practical supercap cap is something less than 100% of its member base.
So MC can, as a practical matter, put 75% of itÆs members in supercaps. Another larger power puts 20% in supercaps. ThatÆs ends up being what, 350 to 400à 500 or in the case of goons itÆs be 1000 super caps.
Good luck with that, time to come up with a new strategy, is I think the OPÆs main point.
As for the notion that there is a limit to the number of pilots that can fight in any one system given current server performance anywho? Sure, 300 MC v 300 anyone else is gonna come out in MCÆs favor more often than not, but what happens when the larger alliance simply attacks 3 systems at once? One big even fight and two automatic losses? Three fights at 1 to 3 odds? MC needs to rethink its strategy and alliance culture (Only mega elites need apply and all that) if it wants to continue to be a 0.0 landholding alliance and a mercenary force.
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Silvestri
Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.10 20:08:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Omeega
Originally by: Silvestri No Rise...
lol :)
lol....good point...
They were good fun to raid though....
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Mei Han
Gallente Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 20:36:00 -
[66]
I realy don't get why K:D ratio has any meaning.. espesialy in mercenary business. I mean if i pay for a contract i do not care if thier ratio was 100% and they killed only 10 BSs and left. I wouldn't even care if they lost 100 Caps to kill 10. My only interest would be for damage done in ISK,Territory and enemies' morale.
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HEY LISTEN
i swear this is true
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:03:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Mei Han I realy don't get why K:D ratio has any meaning.. espesialy in mercenary business. I mean if i pay for a contract i do not care if thier ratio was 100% and they killed only 10 BSs and left. I wouldn't even care if they lost 100 Caps to kill 10. My only interest would be for damage done in ISK,Territory and enemies' morale.
K/d ratio's is a measure of pvp skill, territory can be bought, blobbed or napped to be gained. Although in a contract with merc's you would as you say proly only care about whatever result you paid for.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! |
Quartex
Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:33:00 -
[68]
Very thoughtful post, thanks to the Op.
I should begin by saying that the views that follow are my own and not necessarily those of the Alliance I am in.
BoB were the first true super Alliance and managed to stay ahead of everyone by mastering and then applying new game mechanics ahead of everyone else.
Their teamwork and organisation whilst doing this is best demonstrated in the first two PvP tournies, which they won comfortably. Leadership was clear and focussed and all about holding space.
The BoB/MC relationship was mutually beneficial and I support the views of the Op on MC's evolution. Having a friendly BoB as a neighbour meant MC were free to fight, holding space was an aside. They didn't need to hold space but as mercs they could receive big bucks for taking it.
MC's split from BoB has complicated southern eve politics. BoB isn't dead yet, they can field an incredible Cap fleet. As others have said, with current game performance it's possible that they can hold out by simply turning up with enough ships to take the node down, even if they fully intended to deal a decisive blow to break off some of the forces allied against them.
It's going to take simultaneous multi Alliance attacks 23/7 to get the job done and that takes a lot of people getting on for the time required.
MC will find their next evolution as this time ticks by and new strategic opportunities present themselves in the centre ground they have cleverly taken up.
We have been in the "Kill BoB" era for some time now with clear relationships between the larger alliances but I wonder if MC's creation of Tortuga could be the catalyst for a major re-alignment of these relationships.
The "Post BoB" era might not be what some people are expecting and MC's move may be viewed differently in a years time.
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Ituralde
The Illuminati. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 22:04:00 -
[69]
Interesting post. Really though, I would think to look further back than the D2 campaign to see the strength of the MC. The whole Capship powerhouse reputation only represents but one part of the MC's history and reputation.
Though, then again, that was before the memory of the average EVE player. Guess even a noob like me is starting to get old... _____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Pilk
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.10 22:50:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium Dusk till Dawn
I have a hard time taking a history lesson from someone who can't correctly write the name of the main alliance his ill-informed rant is about.
--P
Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. Tyrrax's bet status: UNPAID. |
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Starfall Hammer
Starfall Industries
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Posted - 2008.01.10 23:12:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Pilk
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium Dusk till Dawn
I have a hard time taking a history lesson from someone who can't correctly write the name of the main alliance his ill-informed rant is about.
--P
It is hardly a rant. Go be bitter somewhere else.
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Pilk
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.10 23:20:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Starfall Hammer
Originally by: Pilk
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium Dusk till Dawn
I have a hard time taking a history lesson from someone who can't correctly write the name of the main alliance his ill-informed rant is about.
--P
It is hardly a rant. Go be bitter somewhere else.
The OP impugns MC and D2, and lauds Goon, RA, and whatever "Coalition of the Willing" they've put together at the moment. I am not, nor have I ever been, in any of those alliances. I'm just disgusted that the propaganda alts don't even bother to run their drivel through a spell-checker any more, let alone someone who actually knows Eve history.
--P
Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. Tyrrax's bet status: UNPAID. |
Arakk
Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 23:28:00 -
[73]
Cool post, I was curious how long MC would carry BoB's name. I would find it interesting to see a write-up on all of the "and friends" that have worked with MC and BoB to accomplish what they have in the last year up until MC's breakoff from supporting bob. By "and friends" people always refer to bobs pets/allies and mc's allies as BoB and friends, bob and pets, mc and friends, etc.
Today the BoB fanboiz and bob in general say "haha it took all of eve to do this to US." The question is if we count all of the people in addition to BoB and MC up until MC's breakoff... how many corps/alliances/members actually made up "US". You know before BoB let all of their "and friends" get slaughtered. Today the statement "all these alliances to kill us" finally holds at least SOME truth, since all of their allies and pets no longer have space, and some are as alive as ASCN. FIX is still fighting, but they also have no space, as their systems were getting annihilated, bob's cap fleet and support have spent the majority of their time defending one of the last stations in Fountain.
Its too bad imo that bob's philosophy is to defend primarily space labeled with "band of brothers" sov. Meanwhile one by one their meatshield was exterminated. Possibly and probably if they used some of the weight theyre using now in defending their allies that meatshield would still be there. And perhaps they might have proven themselves a worthy ally in the defense of space to MC.
I think one of the major reasons they broke off was it became overwhelmingly apparent that bob would soon virtually abandon MC as well, with the swarm on their doorstep. Just like they did for FIX, Rise, ... uh well lets not list the amount of allies they fed to the dogs so this doesnt turn into a double post. Anyone that doesn't agree that bob's strategy for supporting allies is "let them take ur space come defend ours" hasn't been watching the front at all, and hasn't noticed that nearly every bob friendly alliance has been erased from the map.
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duckmonster
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.10 23:30:00 -
[74]
In MCs defense, granted one hasn't seen as many Capship deployments, but I'd hardly call it lack of balls, more that its a natural consequence of cyno jammers. Capship deployments a much more complicated affair now, which I think is a good thing for the game (Smaller ships get to play again) -----------
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Raznarok
Apostles of Insanity Rare Faction
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Posted - 2008.01.10 23:33:00 -
[75]
Cool read, something worth putting my glasses on for |
fugazii
Deep Space Productions Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.10 23:34:00 -
[76]
I can only assume the op has been playing for less than a year, because MC certainly did not build its reputation by fighting d2.
And d2 did not fall so quickly because they were noobs. Dont get me wrong d2 were noobs, but that alone doesnt equal such a swift defeat. noobs can go very far with enough numbers as shown by goonswarm. The reason d2 fell(so quickly) is 2 parts. 1) they had just essentially ended a stunningly horrible campaign where they lost a ridiculous amount of isk and ships and 2) unlike gs, d2 are noobs who are NOT pvp oriented so by the time MC came along they were tired of losing, and had little steam and isk to devote towards pvp. Not to mention alot of MM was away at the time so help from them was minimal, IRON gave up without a single shot, and razor was also very exhausted from the same failed campaign as d2. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Malibu Stacey
Gallente Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.11 00:23:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium With the disintegration of D2, one can also see the scale of their battlefield prowess. Mostly Harmless is an industrial powerhouse, Kraftwerk is more or less similar, and Evoke, a small alliance, remains the only potent pvp force.
So RECON are what, chopped liver?
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium It was painfully obvious that if MC continued the fight in Catch, they would be on the receiving end more and more as they grew closer to the capital ceiling, while the enemy had no such limits.
It was painfully obvious that if MC continued the fight in Catch they'd lose more capitals to -A-. MC's leadership always runs when faced with the prospect of fighting Evil Thug because he's shown time & again he will make them hurt. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this, if anything it's good business sense but I know who I'd rather have blue when faced with the choice of either -A- & Tortugans/Superfriends/MC*****breaKIA.
Good post(s) otherwise. --- Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Kera Delacour
Evenstar Industries
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Posted - 2008.01.11 00:41:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Kera Delacour on 11/01/2008 00:42:01 Edited by: Kera Delacour on 11/01/2008 00:41:16 Not getting why everyone is lauding the OP about his post. He's entirely delusional about MC's reputation. A brief search on eve-search yielded some interesting reading about MC. Their reputation is hardly built on their defeat of D2... it's not even their crowning achievement by any stretch.
Though I do agree with some of his points. MC has a limited number of pilots that they can get into caps while their enemies do not. Oh well, that really doesn't matter given that there is a finite number of ships that can get into any system at any given time (currently). Also, given cyno Jammers, etc. It's not like you have to be good with JUST a cap fleet.
But that's ok let's not let game mechanics interfere with our preconcieved notions/delusions of self importance. Will the south tolerate an independant tortuga? Only time will tell. My guess is that once BoB goes down the south will fragment back into it's typically warring factions. There's a TON of mostly vacant space down there as well judging by the map as well that any gutsy alliance with decent PVP'ers could go and take as well.
I'm fairly sure that some alliances will have a go at the Tortuga folks. Only time will tell, as others have said, how that experiment will go. I do find it ironic that everyone who talks about MC's current situation conveniently forgets that Period Basis isn't just MC. Last time I looked there are 3 sov holding alliances in PB and we also know that Outbreak is down there and rumors of a couple other PVP corps as well. But lets not worry about facts. It's much more fun to speculate about alliances while forgetting their allies. Even if some of their allies are scarier than the alliance we're discussing. Personally I think Outbreak being down there should scare the bejesus out of anyone thinking about taking a ***** at PB... does any alliance REALLY want those guys moving into their back yard as payback for kicking them out of PB?
Or Ev0ke? Or KIA? Or whoever else is down there with the Tortuga folks?
These are PVPers we're talking about... not 0.0 carebears... kick them out of their space at peril of making your own unlivable :) ----------- EVNS, bringing quality carebearing to a solar system near you! |
dastommy79
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 01:02:00 -
[79]
Is this another " the northern napmonkeys/carebears/<insult>" thread cause those are pretty ***. Plus it leads to a lot of you sucked more and you ran away crap. MC came conquered and then went away. that was the northern campaign. A highlight in their caerer yes, but there is alot of highlights to choose from. Blaming D2 for the lose is wrong. Each of the allainces up north are to blame for MC's quick succes. Its the past though, lets look to the future
I driks lot *signature removed- Jacques([email protected])* |
Kalissa
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.11 01:45:00 -
[80]
That post was actually a very good read. From memory MC were definitely using motherships well before I remember many other alliances using them, and put them to exceptionally good use, however that was an advantage which I'm sure they realised themselves that sooner or later was going to be negated.
As far as them attacking the north, from a Tri perspective it was probably the best thing that had happened in a long time. The north was totally stagnant the whole place was NAP'd beyond belief. Tri was formed out of a deep dislike for that NAP'ing culture the main problem though was that we had to try and plan operations at times when we knew certain members of the NAPfest were busy elsewhere, to put just how bad things were into context we once launched an assault on an FLA station and we had a gang of 35 people (at the time that was a VERY good show) and the call went out to the other northern entities and within 45 mins we had 160+ in local to fight our gang of 35.
It was nights like that that fuelled our hatred of the situation.
When MC attacked the north we had moved to Venal and we decided to stay out of the fight as even though we didnt like the current northern situation nor did we want to aid BoB in any way, and attacking D2 & Co would have indirectly done that.
The napfest in the north was centred around D2, even though to be honest we hardly ever (if ever) fought D2 their presence was felt, you were either friendly to them or not and if you werent (as we were) you were most definitely left on the outside looking in.
So once D2 wasn't on the scene the door was open for Tri's ambitions to grow which of course they did, we gained a foothold within 48 hours which surprised us as we just didnt expect to get a station that quickly and we went from there.
So Tri does actually owe MC one from my personal point of view, and to be honest anyone who loves pvp does too, the situation as it was in the north was a bad one the only real winners were the industrialists. The north right now is no where near as hot as the south is, infact it's pretty lukewarm really. But before MC came up north and changed things it was an icebox.
But as to what will happen next? Well I dont see BoB being defeated and killed, but I do see them having to leave Delve though probably not for quite a bit, I seriously believe BoB are loving this fight, even if it does end in the loss of their home. When BoB leave I believe MC and the Tortugans will be hard pressed to keep PB, right now it's conventient to have them fighting BoB for PB as it makes the taking of Delve easier that it otherwise would be but once BoB are not in the picture I think they'll find themselves homeless. Staying with BoB would have been a better idea, they would have lost their space but have their reputation intact. They hold onto their space longer this way but the eventual result will be the same and they have badly damaged their reputation by turning on BoB when they did.
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Cyriel Longinus
XERCORE
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Posted - 2008.01.11 02:37:00 -
[81]
This is just propaganda. You whom had nodded ôgood threadö have been spun.
By actually studying up, separate fact from forum fiction à you the reader can learn the entire history that is the Mercenary Coalition from available facts plus eyewitness accounts and then formulate a proper view on the topic.
The MC has always used an edge, whether it has been intel or the latest technology in conjunction with battle tested PvP Play, not to mention the dedication to deliver fun. Hotdropping Motherships on top of fleets in 2007 was a fine example of this. Before this there was surely something else. By doing so the MC has an earned presence in New Eden's history ... such that one forum post from an unknown will not change.
D2 and North was just one recent contract out of so many others and not the ôgrand claim to fameö as the OP would like to spin. The ôTrue Testö for MC is the history it has claimed for itself and the dedication it has to deliver to the ôClientö and the targets.
The "Force of Evil" Contract put to rest a great plague in New Eden. ItÆs almost forgotten but historic. It happened well before the D2 and North contract and could be said as the contract that put MC on the map but it really isnÆt.
MC is on the influence map because of faith, dedication and itÆs own ethos of having fun.
I think fugazii is right in saying
Originally by: fugazii I can only assume the op has been playing for less than a year, because MC certainly did not build its reputation by fighting d2.
What could become of MC? The real identity behind Demosthenes Citium probably has no clue, hence why heÆs hiding behind the alt.
Demosthenes Citium,
If you possess a insight and enough experience to share a perspective as to ôwhat could beö then back it with your identity and please recall historic facts beyond just last year à otherwise, please donÆt try to sell it à because what I had read was not researched, narrow viewed and was definitely worded to influence.
Because if I had to, I would bet on the earned in blood reputation, backed by years of success and my own research that an organization such as the Mercenary Coalition will write itÆs own ticket à IÆll do that before I ever start ônoddingö mindlessly in agreement with one guy hiding behind an alt.
Sorry man, IÆm just tired of reading propaganda threads being spun as creditable or soft point of views.
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Waagaa Ktlehr
Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.01.11 03:58:00 -
[82]
The most fearsome aspects of the MC are their industry backbone and their freighter blobs. -
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Atomos Darksun
Havoc Inc Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.01.11 04:04:00 -
[83]
MM, MH, FIX, Tortuga, and the rest of the non-SC and non-bob/pets should band up. This way BoB goes SPLATT, and Mittens is kept happy by having someone to fight. ----- They've gone to PLAID!!
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WraithFire
Cassandra's Light Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.01.11 04:25:00 -
[84]
Demosthenes, this is a very good post. It is a breathe of fresh air imo. Good work.
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Philly81
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2008.01.11 04:42:00 -
[85]
Originally by: fugazii Not to mention alot of MM was away at the time so help from them was minimal, IRON gave up without a single shot, and razor was also very exhausted from the same failed campaign as d2.
Considering you had mentioned razor being exhausted from the failed campaign in the south, IRON, too, had been fighting in the south. Actually they had been fighting in Querious, and fighting quite well imo, about 2 months before the rest of the northern alliances came down to fight.
Please don't think that IRON was just sitting in Deklein when MC invaded because they were not. IRON was war exhausted and spent most of its isk as well as the other northern alliances.
My views do not affialiate with my corp nor alliance.
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Orion Moonstar
Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.11 04:44:00 -
[86]
Wow, wait, tl;dr, meaning DID READ.
MC
http://www.dariusjohnson.org/dec20bobts.mp3 http://www.daitengu.com/ohgod/dec20bobts.mp3 |
Demosthenes Citium
Lyceum Cyrene
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Posted - 2008.01.11 07:23:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Cyriel Longinus This is just propaganda.
The MC has always used an edge, whether it has been intel or the latest technology in conjunction with battle tested PvP Play, not to mention the dedication to deliver fun. Hotdropping Motherships on top of fleets in 2007 was a fine example of this. Before this there was surely something else. By doing so the MC has an earned presence in New Eden's history ... such that one forum post from an unknown will not change.
To be frank, your post appears to be more like propaganda than mine.
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Cyriel Longinus
XERCORE
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Posted - 2008.01.11 09:12:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Cyriel Longinus on 11/01/2008 09:16:45
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium
Originally by: Cyriel Longinus This is just propaganda.
The MC has always used an edge, whether it has been intel or the latest technology in conjunction with battle tested PvP Play, not to mention the dedication to deliver fun. Hotdropping Motherships on top of fleets in 2007 was a fine example of this. Before this there was surely something else. By doing so the MC has an earned presence in New Eden's history ... such that one forum post from an unknown will not change.
To be frank, your post appears to be more like propaganda than mine.
To be frank is to be straightforward; i.e. coming out of hiding from behind that alt.
YouÆre just not happy that I exposed your words for narrow view nonsense that they are.
What I had written elaborates on what you had attempted to say but you failed to properly consider what is obvious à that the MC had always used an edge to their advantage à that edge changes with the era, situation and target. If you had ever fought them as a leader, you would know this to be a degree of truth and say so rather than focus on a few events in 2007 and use that as a general content to support your words.
Look, if you do not have the constitution to handle posting a thread in CAOD, then just donÆt do it. If you're gonna quote me, don't omit words to spin support for a futile rebuttal.
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Demosthenes Citium
Lyceum Cyrene
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Posted - 2008.01.11 09:43:00 -
[89]
read the first paragraph I wrote, it explains why I am posting on this character. Have a good day.
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Tearavygh Quillam
Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:08:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Pilk
Originally by: Starfall Hammer
Originally by: Pilk
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium Dusk till Dawn
I have a hard time taking a history lesson from someone who can't correctly write the name of the main alliance his ill-informed rant is about.
--P
It is hardly a rant. Go be bitter somewhere else.
The OP impugns MC and D2, and lauds Goon, RA, and whatever "Coalition of the Willing" they've put together at the moment. I am not, nor have I ever been, in any of those alliances. I'm just disgusted that the propaganda alts don't even bother to run their drivel through a spell-checker any more, let alone someone who actually knows Eve history.
--P
Yet again, your minority explains itself as undeniable.
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Lowa
Gallente North Star Networks Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.11 11:35:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Lowa on 11/01/2008 11:35:52
Originally by: Cyriel Longinus The MC has always used an edge, whether it has been intel or the latest technology in conjunction with battle tested PvP Play, not to mention the dedication to deliver fun. Hotdropping Motherships on top of fleets in 2007 was a fine example of this. Before this there was surely something else.
It was. It always have been (and not only or always by MC). MS's were a superior fighting platform for a time. Not using it to the max would have been really stupid. Before that (and even longer) certain Command ships are/were made out of Pure win (Astarte/Eos) and people used them for with maximum effect for as long as possible. Before that it was HAC's, at one time the only people that I knew of that had 30-60 man HAC gangs going everyday was MC and BoB and I have found memories of targets and allies that were in awe of that every single one of us (as NSN was there back then) were in 250-350m isk ships and running them almost like T1 (hence the discussion of k/d Isk ratio at the time).
Before that it was...I dont know, 99% resistance Scorpions, Cruise missile frigs etc.
If you make it your business to stay on the leading/bleeding edge of technology in EVE you will have tremendous success for a while with a perticular ship or setup (Nos Dommie/Nano-Phoons! ), that has always been true. So far at least.
/Lowa
What if the truth was something else? |
Xplained
Caldari Dark.. Matter..Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:11:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Demosthenes Citium Mercenary Coalition is a very successful alliance; there is no doubt about that.
Without BOB, MC would never have reached the high they are on, it's only fair that they also should be wiped out.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:22:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Mei Han I realy don't get why K:D ratio has any meaning.. espesialy in mercenary business. I mean if i pay for a contract i do not care if thier ratio was 100% and they killed only 10 BSs and left. I wouldn't even care if they lost 100 Caps to kill 10. My only interest would be for damage done in ISK,Territory and enemies' morale.
What better way to crush your opponents morale than by destroying 50 of his ships for no losses? Most entites defending against the likes of the MC would consider 1000 losses for 700 kills a victory. Their willingness to fight remains! Losing 30 ships and killing none on the otherhand... Thats what makes people log off and find something else to do.
In warfare whether its real or pretend maintaining morale is of the highest importance. This is especially true in Eve.
--------------- you all smell! |
The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:35:00 -
[94]
Originally by: welsh wizard
What better way to crush your opponents morale than by destroying 50 of his ships for no losses?
im a fan of forcing people to recharge towers for weeks on end while denying significant engagements and making them the victim of a ruinous propaganda campaign, but w/e floats your boat i guess
big flashy battles, even one-sided ones keep people engaged in the game
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Aneu Angellus
Caldari DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:37:00 -
[95]
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: welsh wizard
What better way to crush your opponents morale than by destroying 50 of his ships for no losses?
im a fan of forcing people to recharge towers for weeks on end while denying significant engagements and making them the victim of a ruinous propaganda campaign, but w/e floats your boat i guess
big flashy battles, even one-sided ones keep people engaged in the game
I love you Mittani. ________________
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Legio Praetor
The Green Machine
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Posted - 2008.01.11 14:13:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Legio Praetor on 11/01/2008 14:14:57 Edited by: Legio Praetor on 11/01/2008 14:14:21 Edited by: Legio Praetor on 11/01/2008 14:14:00
Originally by: xRevolveRx
Originally by: Cpt Pugwash Who holds the North now?
Not Mpire/Fatal etc.
Therefore, use any excuse you like, they were not good enough.
I think what he is trying to say is that the guys that took that space from mpire and fatal cant do anything on their own without overwelming support. If they have so much trouble against small alliances like that, what are they gonna do if BoB were to go back home to BKG if they decided to leave delve?
Funny you should write that, last night i was actually thinking that if BoB began showing battlefagitue and losing the line, maybe the best way to deal with that would be to relocate to the other end of the universe and let the others fight over the vacuum they left in the south. Would give them time to regroup and watch from a distance NAP's ending with internal fighting down south.
Anyway, nice read. Will keep an eye on what happens
(edits: bloody formatting)
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HEY LISTEN
i swear this is true
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Posted - 2008.01.11 14:22:00 -
[97]
Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 11/01/2008 14:22:10
Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: welsh wizard
What better way to crush your opponents morale than by destroying 50 of his ships for no losses?
im a fan of forcing people to recharge towers for weeks on end while denying significant engagements and making them the victim of a ruinous propaganda campaign, but w/e floats your boat i guess
big flashy battles, even one-sided ones keep people engaged in the game
That only works against ppl who care about holding space and if done on a large scale would destroy the game.
But then im talking to a goon and the bragging rights on out of game forums about how you meta'd eve online to death would proly give scum like you the jollies.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! |
DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.01.11 15:38:00 -
[98]
'Hotdropping'
The post is actually good, but only because it doesn't say much either way. The only part I flatly disagree with is that MC somehow started the whole carrier/capital drop. It started with RA when they were fighting LV, then later BoB and MC started doing it. It simply comes down to this: In any big war the number of pos involved is too ridiculous that even if they're undefended you can spend the next year blowing them up. If you focus on enemy capitals, it hurts the pilots individually and for the majority of capital pilots they're only flying them to see what its like and take part in such events. They have zero incentive to repeat it, and then fly under the same people that got them killed the first time.
Image Buffing
But anyhow, before the D2 war I think MC had a reputation for being shock troops or some kind of capital reserve - an image they endorsed. They attempted to prove otherwise with the northern conflict. MC lost initiative in that pretty damn fast, but their enemies screwed up and gave them a good reason to galvanize again. They overcame that reputation well and proved they could do bigger things. They were also smart enough to leave just as the North was too far gone to save.
Greener Alternatives
However, in the past a lot of pvpers wanting "more" ended up going to BoB, then later to MC and Outbreak. The latter two became the dominant choice as soon as BoB started playing space conquest. MC and Outbreak offered a more nomadic and less serious type of gameplay that was previously the hallmark of BoB. Even with MC committing with many billions in assets, anyone involved knew that the conflict was only temporary in nature and it didn't make sense to take it personally. If it sucks, just wait it out and it'll be something completely different in a month.
What most people wanted to see with MC breaking from BoB was that - MC becoming more nomadic and offering pvpers that alternative style to endgame PVP. They wanted to see a force that would go behind lines and actually cause terror and damage small gank squads can't. I find it rather funny that Outbreak had so many people interested in joining them because of this, it effectively overwhelmed their corp.
Period Basis
The benefit of being able to carebear and build capitals securely was a huge one (also having a place to stash things away). But now (as the original poster correctly states) that tactic is no longer viable for them - if they want to prove MC is the best at something.
Now, having period basis and having to defend it simply drags them into wars/politics which MC really wasn't made for and makes them a crappier alternative to joining one of the better groups actually happy with playing EVE that way. It isn't like the north where they have something to prove to EVE, I can bet you most of their members would rather not have to form defensive gangs every time BoB calls an op. And I somehow doubt Seleene envisioned MC, KIA and Ev0ke becoming the next space conquest power bloc, because they'd each have to sacrifice a fair bit of their individuality for the sake of having comparable numbers.
Present
Right now I would call MC opportunists who knew this move would help them, but they haven't realized why. Their internal forums have comments equivalent to 'BoB will be too busy with the coalition soon, we just need to hold on'. The big question I have personally is whether or not they're just holding on because of having Titans in build or because they want to secure it as their home again. If its the latter, you run into the problems above, and about the only thing amusing with this decision is that both Band of Brothers and the Coalition don't like people intruding on their very exclusive game. They would both welcome a third party to rail on from time to time. _______________________________ Complex Fullerene Shards; why God? :| |
Rukaz
Malevolent Intervention
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Posted - 2008.01.11 15:59:00 -
[99]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist 'Hotdropping'
The post is actually good, but only because it doesn't say much either way. The only part I flatly disagree with is that MC somehow started the whole carrier/capital drop. It started with RA when they were fighting LV, then later BoB and MC started doing it.
I don't think you'll find any MC claiming they invented hot drops.
Maybe because it did prove incredibly effective in the northern campaign its become an Eve myth.
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