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Shintoko Akahoshi
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:59:00 -
[1]
Recently a pilot named Tablaren has created a petition to force the SCC to be regulated by local commerce laws. While this attitude is certainly common, that does not make it right. As others have effectively pointed out, free trade is vital to the survival of all, from the smallest scale trader through the largest trade organizations. The SCC itself was founded on these ideas, and they are central to it. As this capsule history of the SCC indicates, trade before the SCC was problematic and chaotic. It was only through the establishment of the SCC, and SCC-controlled regional markets, that economic stability replaced the fractured and fragmented systems before it.
Read the article. All of it. Note, especially, the last part about the SCC operating neutrally, without interference from local governments. The current SCC market system, which allows the sale of locally banned products, is operating as designed. Control of proscribed materials is correctly left to local law enforcement and customs. Any change to this would be anti-market, anti-competitive, and force myriad legitimate businesspeople to either give up their livelihoods or become criminals.
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Agustus Caesar
Minmatar
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 20:11:00 -
[2]
So you're saying we should be alright with slaves on the market when 75% of the cluster is against it? I'm pro free trade as the next guy but what the SCC has done is FAR over the line. You're right about the SCC being completely neutral, they're ****ing off everyone equally.
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Naturally my views are my own as I'm not my alliance's spokesman, ect.
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Shintoko Akahoshi
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.10 20:29:00 -
[3]
That's a nice piece of misdirection. Should I say "Oh, yeah, I love the idea of slavery being legal", or should I say "Oops, you're right, I take it all back".
Seriously, though, do you really think that the reason slavery exists is because the SCC does not actively try to stop it? I'm sorry, but loathsome as slavery is, it existed long before the SCC was created. If you truly want to stop slavery, there are many things you can do. Changing the SCC, however, really isn't one of them.
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Agustus Caesar
Minmatar
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:11:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi
That's a nice piece of misdirection. Should I say "Oh, yeah, I love the idea of slavery being legal", or should I say "Oops, you're right, I take it all back".
Seriously, though, do you really think that the reason slavery exists is because the SCC does not actively try to stop it? I'm sorry, but loathsome as slavery is, it existed long before the SCC was created. If you truly want to stop slavery, there are many things you can do. Changing the SCC, however, really isn't one of them.
You're absolutely correct, slavery existed long before the SCC; but you can't honestly expect me to believe that allowing slaves to be sold on the open market everywhere isn't going to be a boon to the slave trade. It isn't just the SCC's enabling of the slave trade that has people up in arms, it's letting weapons grade biological weapons be traded as if they were trading cards, allowing nearly toxic narcotics to be sold like a vendor sells hamburgers. The SCC may not be the root of all evil but they've become a very effective fertilizer.
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Naturally my views are my own as I'm not my alliance's spokesman, ect.
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Shintoko Akahoshi
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:25:00 -
[5]
I'm sorry, but blaming the widespread plague of slavery on the SCC is ludicrous to the extreme. You may as well blame pod pilot training for it - certainly, if there were no pod pilots, then the SCC market for slavery would be significantly curtailed!
Honestly, if you want to stop slave trading in regions that ban it, look to law enforcement. Look to customs. If it's so easy for people to smuggle slaves into an area to sell, then there is something wrong with how the local government is dealing with it. If you want to do something about it beyond that, then go after the slavers themselves. Blanket changes to the SCC are not the way to go about this.
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Dismus
Gallente
Sigma Shipwright and Exploration
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:34:00 -
[6]
I find it especially puzzling that the trade of slaves is permitted by the SCC, yet the primary contributors to its code of neutrality are the Minmatar and the Jove... both of whome especially abhorred the enslavement of the Minmatar by the Amarr.
The oppinions of both groups - especially the Minmatar - are quite well known.
I must say, it has always surprised me that a neutral organization supports the trade of items like slaves.
Forbidding the trade of slaves doesn't strike me as a neutral action. It strikes me as a humanitarian action... Perhaps enough widespread boycott of the SCC will encourage the SCC to review key trade protocols.
It really seems to me that problems such as these are going to create some rather violent differences between many pilots in the Empire.
Originally by: Draeca
Domi isn't ugly, it actually looks quite symphatic.
I mean, a crossbreed of a whale and a potato.. Now how cute is that?
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Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:43:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 10/01/2008 21:51:15
Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 10/01/2008 21:49:29
You do realise that by allowing the free trade of slaves on the market in Matari space they are making it quite possible for you anti-Slavery types to use middlemen to smuggle slaves out of the empire and to "freedom," don't you?
The holders selling get money to modernise their economy, the middlemen get money for their service, and you get to free slaves without killing... anyone.
Seems to me that if you actually wanted 'your' people to be free that you could do it far more effectively that way than by killing people senselessly.
Edit:
The best part about this scenario is that the worst abusers of slaves are the same ones who are willing to sell their slaves if the price is right. Those holding slaves for religious reasons tend to be less abusive of slaves than those holding them simply to make as much money as they can. After all, if you mistreat your slaves that only slows their advancement into the empire of heaven, even if it does mean you can spend less on them and worth them harder.
So if you embrace the SCC decision, you actually can remove slaves from those who treat them evilly, without any death being necessary.
Deus Vult!
PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.10 22:30:00 -
[8]
... and then the slavers, seeing the artificially enlarged demand for slaves, will make use of their newfound capital to: (select one)
a) build a museum of religious tolerance to teach people of their own and other races the error of trying to ram one's religion down the throats of those who choose to live their lives in other ways
b) pay reparations to former slaves and family of former slaves to recompense for the centuries of abuse inflicted upon them
c) hire pirates and mercenaries to raid the worlds of their enemies, and bring back more slaves to sell at a net profit
d) lobby the government to legalize Drop, since while they are readily available on the market, it's inconvenient and risky to transport home -- and really, why should only Amarrian priests be allowed to have a direct line to god?
--
Becq Starforged
proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services
At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today! |
Agustus Caesar
Minmatar
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.01.10 22:38:00 -
[9]
My my, if only reading comprehension wasn't an optional skill for Galnet, where to begin.....
Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi
I'm sorry, but blaming the widespread plague of slavery on the SCC is ludicrous to the extreme. You may as well blame pod pilot training for it - certainly, if there were no pod pilots, then the SCC market for slavery would be significantly curtailed!
I suggest you read my statement (much) more closely, I never said SCC is to blame for slavery, I simply said their allowing slaves to be traded on the open market everywhere is a powerful enabler to the slave trade. If you don't believe this is true, then tell me why it's false, but don't twist my words.
Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi
Honestly, if you want to stop slave trading in regions that ban it, look to law enforcement. Look to customs. If it's so easy for people to smuggle slaves into an area to sell, then there is something wrong with how the local government is dealing with it. If you want to do something about it beyond that, then go after the slavers themselves. Blanket changes to the SCC are not the way to go about this.
Contrary to popular belief, no law enforcement agency is god. Customs officials are not omnipotent, omnipresent beings who can detect the all or even the majority of contraband passing through their gates. Capsuleers are limited in their ability to aid customs officials in stopping smugglers, because if they attempt to detain an offender guess what organization flies in to kill the would be vigilantee? CONCORD of course! Leaving the slaver/gun runner/<insert contraband dealer here> to go about their business.
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
You do realise that by allowing the free trade of slaves on the market in Matari space they are making it quite possible for you anti-Slavery types to use middlemen to smuggle slaves out of the empire and to "freedom," don't you?
The holders selling get money to modernise their economy, the middlemen get money for their service, and you get to free slaves without killing... anyone.
Seems to me that if you actually wanted 'your' people to be free that you could do it far more effectively that way than by killing people senselessly.
Edit:
The best part about this scenario is that the worst abusers of slaves are the same ones who are willing to sell their slaves if the price is right. Those holding slaves for religious reasons tend to be less abusive of slaves than those holding them simply to make as much money as they can. After all, if you mistreat your slaves that only slows their advancement into the empire of heaven, even if it does mean you can spend less on them and worth them harder.
So if you embrace the SCC decision, you actually can remove slaves from those who treat them evilly, without any death being necessary.
Your scenario assumes abolitionists will be able to swoop in and purchase the majority of slaves (in all 19 regions where slavery is illegal) before anyone of ill intent is able to buy them. A nice dream, but a dream none-the-less.
I figured you of all people would be with me on this. I used slaves as an example, but my overall complaint was the SCC allowing the sale of items (and people) despite the local populace (and government) being vehemently opposed to their being on the market. You can't honestly approve of such products as mindflood, crash, and blue pill being up for sale on the open market in Amarr, can you?
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Naturally my views are my own as I'm not my alliance's spokesman, ect.
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Sepherim
Amarr
Ordo Quaesitoris
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Posted - 2008.01.11 00:36:00 -
[10]
Actually, Miss Akahoshi, your claims are only valid if you recognize the value of both CONCORD and the SCC. Which I am afraid I don't exactly do. I don't accept that external organizations to the Empire (or any major state for this case) should be able to dictate policies for the Empire, nor in trade nor religion or anything else. If the Minmatarr don't want to accept slaves sold in their market, so be it; if Amarr doesn't want to accept another "good", so be it. CONCORD or the SCC have no right to get involved in that. Yet they do.
Free trade is a dangerous and unfair tool. And freedom for movement of ships is so too. CONCORD has outgrown its original purpose, as their inference in Caldari issues recently shows.
Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com - Cortes |
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Ashar KorAzor
Order of the Blessed Sisters of Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.11 07:58:00 -
[11]
Much as we might dislike the feeling of meddling, captains, I think that we can all agree on several points.
First, there is no stopping the black market. Those who would abide by trade regulations do, and those who do not have a sufficient opportunity to foil customs inspectors and anti-contraband laws. They always have in the history of commerce, and always will. Trying to stop them with overbearing regulations is, to a certain extent, merely silly.
Now, as to the matter of slave and narcotics trafficking - this is a matter of morals for basically all perties involved. I don't see it as one of laws, especially in the empire.
It's called education, gentlemen. Either in your nation's moral code, or in the nature of the Faith. You don't get it at the end of a customs official's gun. Do not look to laws to force individuals to abide by your principles - look to principle to see itself made manifest.
Gah, this is almost as bad as that idiot who wanted to slap a skull and crossbones on all packets of tobacco manufactured in Khanid...
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John Tanashima
Caldari
Ekchuah Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.01.11 10:02:00 -
[12]
It is evidently a good thing when CONCORD does not try to make a supranational law and impose the least common denominator to all.
But in that case, the problem is not a problem of what is authorized or not, it is a problem of jurisdiction.
The SCC "authorizing" the sale of slaves in Minmatar space (to take the most extreme point) is not exactly the same thing as the SCC forcing Minmatar stations to list slaves as a tradable product and to tolerate publicly slave markets in station.
Sovereign stations should have their internal marketplace dictated by an external entity.
As it is, I am not a signatory of this petition, I am not a station commander, and if I were, I would not beg CONCORD for my right to police my station as I want to.
In my personal and corporate interest, I shall petition for less restrictions on trade from my only legitimate government, the State, and abide by its decisions, we are not valid interlocutors for CONCORD and should not give it more sovereignty than it deserves: none.
As a Caldari citizen, I implore you to do the same and to not give legitimacy to any would-be supranational entity; our ancestors did not secede from the federation for us to cheer a greater federation now.
Moitte !
John Tanashima
CEO, Contre-Amiral
Ekchuah Incorporated |
Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.01.11 13:23:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 11/01/2008 13:26:44
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
you get to free slaves without killing... anyone.
I can immediately see why this idea doesn't appeal to many Matri.
As stated it was the Minmatars and Jovians who actually pressed for this neutrality in the first place I am surprised it is not more highly valued.
On topic, since the Minmatar are intent on making this entire discussion about them: The SCC is a department of CONCORD. As such it's job is to enforce inter-empire laws and not those of any specific empire. If an empire does not want a product brought into their space it is their job to stop it not that of CONCORD or the SCC.
Anything else would be favoritism, and of course would not be met with a majority vote from the assembly. It must be remembered that it is their opinion that matters here and not those of capsuleers.
I might not be particularly pleased by the sale of small arms in the State or of Khumaaks in the Empire but it is the job of the empires to police local law. Perhaps it is time they started thinking about increasing the size and expertise of their customs forces and/or selling customs licenses to capsuleers.
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Kabajashi San
Minmatar
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.11 14:09:00 -
[14]
There is a difference in selling small arms or human beings, Mr. Blackleaf, that you should be aware of. Slavery is to be abolished because it is against Republican law, but because it is against humanity. The neutrality of the SCC is a joke when it allows universal trading of anything that is only legal in one singular part of the universe.
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:20:00 -
[15]
You see. Here we go again.
I at least find it interesting that you can call this a crime against humanity when it is supported by such a large number of humans.
I also severely doubt CONCORD consider neutrality a joke, and that singule part of the cluster you mention probably contains as many people as the rest of the empire factions combined.
You don't have to like it, but if you want CONCORD to start acting on public opinion or local legality you would soon find Ushra'Khan pilots labeled outlaws by default due to their admitted terrorist nature and open hostility against.. just about everyone including CONCORD.
Fortunately for UK CONCORD is a neutral organization. Sometimes it works in your favor other times it doesn't. The cluster does not revolve around Ushra'Khan.
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Kabajashi San
Minmatar
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.11 20:55:00 -
[16]
This is not about Ushra'Khan, Mr. Blackleaf. You should for once forget the grudge you hold against them. This is about humanity. And I don't want CONCORD to act on anything else than the most basic norms of it. For someone who claimed support for the cause of the Matari you have a pretty low understanding about the differences betwen trade goods and human beings. Not even the Amarr sink so low.
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.01.12 07:35:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 12/01/2008 07:36:09
I don't hold a grudge against Ushra'Khan. Ushra'Khan holds a grudge against me however as has recently been shown, along with everyone else who operates or deals with Amarrians, Ammatars or Khanids including CONCORD and the SCC.
If something is not accepted as the norm by a huge portion of people how can you define it as a basic norm? If this matter was supported by the majority it would pass with a majority vote in the Assembly. Evidently it is not.
Your own people pressed for this ruling, live with it.
...and please don't falsify my statements. I have never claimed support for the Matari. Indeed quite the opposite.
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
I have always respected, if not supported, the Minmatar and their fight for freedom. I never realized the sickening truth behind it. Freedom at any price, even if it means turning the entire cluster against your own people to achieve it.
I've certainly never stated that I classify slaves as a mere trade good either, again quite the opposite I recognize their worth is spiritual rather than monetary to all but the outlaw slaver factions. I do not concern myself with slavery, it's an issue between the slavers and the freedom fighters, it is not my place to judge either side.
This is about free trade, CONDORD neutrality, and the poor state of empire faction customs forces. This is not principally about slavery.
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Wanoah
Minmatar
Msana Foundation
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Posted - 2008.01.12 12:48:00 -
[18]
The SCC is clearly aiding and abetting the slave trade. As such, they deserve nothing less than to be gunned down like the dogs they are.
If you work for the SCC, you better start watching your back. You better start thinking about your family and your homes. You see, something awful might happen to them.
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.01.13 19:20:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Wanoah
The SCC is clearly aiding and abetting the slave trade.
Only since it's foundation... don't tell me you only just noticed.
Thankfully the DED knows better than to react to empty threats against station based CONCORD personnel from capsuleers. Again, your complaints and threats would be better aimed towards the Republic and their poor customs efforts than the SCC. At least in that case you can actually carry them through against targets in space. Or is threatening clerks and their families the height of the freedom fighting ideal?
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Xaroth Brook
Minmatar
BIG
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2008.01.14 00:00:00 -
[20]
The SCC is doing what they are meant to do, and their job description never told them to restrict trade of anything... that restriction is up to each empire's own Customs department.
For drugs to be sold in places it's not allowed, it had to be moved there to begin with.
Blame those who brought it, not those who sell it.
It was like a baby, it landed on my lap and was helpless and totally defenseless. Then I shot it and bragged about it on a killboard.
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