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Paragon Renegade
Offensive Logistics Inc
223
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Posted - 2012.02.10 01:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
What.
I just went to Etherium Reach for the first time since Incarna was out, and I find Rogue Drones still drop drone poop.
Again, what.
I really don't care what one says to defend this; it's a fact that drone loot reprocessing (And to an extent Mission loot liquidation) has ravaged the whole mining profession to the point that it's almost a joke. Essentially, the whole problem with rogue drones and mission loot reprocessing is the fact that it allows people with widely-different areas of expertise (Niches) from mining to have the same abilities as a miner and thensome.
I'm not exaggerating when I say you can run a POS factory in low with nothing but mineral drops in low. The stupid-ass ******** alloys dropped by drones are even worse for business.
Minerals should be extracted by miners and not recovered en masse by PvE'ers; it's really just common sense. Of course, many "miners" are also botters, so they cause yet another problem which I won't even bother addressing because it's been beaten to death already, but I do support an overhaul of the whole mining system if that matters (Coming from a person who does nothing but mine WH's).
GET RID OF DRONE ALLOY AND MAKE MISSIONS DROPS REPROCESS FOR LESS Please :3
The pie is a tautology |
elenasa
Ontology Collective
2
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Posted - 2012.02.10 01:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
You don't have to be in the automobile profession to take your broken car to a scrap merchants to be sold as scrap.
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Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
15
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Posted - 2012.02.10 01:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
A few years back I was ratting in the Drone Regions, I was making just as much as a miner (with good mining skills) from ratting in belts, after I reprocessed the alloys.
Drones didn't have any bounties on them so the only income from ratting their was from the dropped alloys.
Missioners get no where near the minerals that miners mine, so I don't see your problem. Except for the drone regions. |
ACE McFACE
Acetech Systems
576
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Posted - 2012.02.10 01:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
I thought CCP hasn't made those Rogue Drone changes yet. Real men wear goggles and a Navy shirt! |
Paragon Renegade
Offensive Logistics Inc
223
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Posted - 2012.02.10 01:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:A few years back I was ratting in the Drone Regions, I was making just as much as a miner (with good mining skills) from ratting in belts, after I reprocessed the alloys.
Drones didn't have any bounties on them so the only income from ratting their was from the dropped alloys.
You just summed up the problem; this is why the alloys are so horrible.
Quote:Missioners get no where near the minerals that miners mine, so I don't see your problem. Except for the drone regions.
My main beef is with Rogue drones, not missioners, but I wouldn't exactly dispute a reduction in loot drops
The pie is a tautology |
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
69
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Posted - 2012.02.10 01:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Paragon Renegade wrote:
GET RID OF DRONE ALLOY AND MAKE MISSIONS DROPS REPROCESS FOR LESS Please :3
I personally don't think that Mission Drops should be able to be reprocessed without having Scrapmetal Processing trained. Even then I agree with you that the amount of minerals received from reprocessing should be drastically reduced.
If you think about it, requiring Scrapmetal Processing would increase a miners output (as I doubt that many people would train all of the required prereqs just to be able to get a pittance of minerals from them).
If the minerals available from reprocessing were capped at an equivalent amount of m^3 as the item being reprocessed, I think it would make much more sense than the current situation where the amount of minerals you get from an item fill a much larger volume than the original item itself.
If Scrapmetal Processing were also to be required, it could be that you only get 20% of the maximum volume of minerals per level, factor in standing and you've got a much more sensible yield from reprocessing. Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been Eve is a great game if you can get past all of the asshats.... |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
15
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Posted - 2012.02.10 01:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
In the Drone Regions a ratter is effectively a miner as far as income is concerned. |
Hroya
14
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Posted - 2012.02.10 01:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Elessa Enaka wrote:Paragon Renegade wrote:
GET RID OF DRONE ALLOY AND MAKE MISSIONS DROPS REPROCESS FOR LESS Please :3
I personally don't think that Mission Drops should be able to be reprocessed without having Scrapmetal Processing trained. Even then I agree with you that the amount of minerals received from reprocessing should be drastically reduced. If you think about it, requiring Scrapmetal Processing would increase a miners output (as I doubt that many people would train all of the required prereqs just to be able to get a pittance of minerals from them). If the minerals available from reprocessing were capped at an equivalent amount of m^3 as the item being reprocessed, I think it would make much more sense than the current situation where the amount of minerals you get from an item fill a much larger volume than the original item itself. If Scrapmetal Processing were also to be required, it could be that you only get 20% of the maximum volume of minerals per level, factor in standing and you've got a much more sensible yield from reprocessing.
This, please this. Dont ask why |
elenasa
Ontology Collective
2
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Why shouldn't reprocessing be as productive as mining/refining. A lot of the world's gold is got from reprocessed mobile phones. A lot of the world's silver is got from reprocessed cinema reels (celluloid). This is because the world is in the situation where the minig industries have dug-up most of the goddamn stuff and we have to think of new ways of getting hold of it.. Reprocessing, whether drone alloys or loot from wrecks, and mining/refining are simply different means of obtaining a commodity. Neither is the natural and rightful teritory of any one profession. But the two professions are both distinct and legitimate, nevertheless. |
Paragon Renegade
Offensive Logistics Inc
225
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
You serious? lol The pie is a tautology |
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elenasa
Ontology Collective
2
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Paragon Renegade wrote:You serious? lol
Of course. Why wouldnt I be?
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Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
15
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
elenasa wrote:Why shouldn't reprocessing be as productive as mining/refining. A lot of the world's gold is got from reprocessed mobile phones. A lot of the world's silver is got from reprocessed cinema reels (celluloid). This is because the world is in the situation where the minig industries have dug-up most of the goddamn stuff and we have to think of new ways of getting hold of it.. Reprocessing, whether drone alloys or loot from wrecks, and mining/refining are simply different means of obtaining a commodity. Neither is the natural and rightful teritory of any one profession. But the two professions are both distinct and legitimate, nevertheless.
I think the problem is miners want a bigger slice of the cake, but then most people do. |
Paragon Renegade
Offensive Logistics Inc
225
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
elenasa wrote:Paragon Renegade wrote:You serious? lol Of course. Why wouldnt I be?
Real-world examples in a game? Err.... Not really valid. The pie is a tautology |
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
70
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
I started out as a miner, I may not do it nearly as much as I used to, but I do not think that miners should be marginalized by gun-mining (whether ratting, rogue drones or mission drops).
They fill a niche and it should be an important niche as they should be the suppliers of the raw materials for nearly all of the items made available on the player-driven markets. Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been Eve is a great game if you can get past all of the asshats.... |
baltec1
575
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
I have always thought miners should be the only people to get the minerals and t1 drops removed so the BPO owners have the market to themselves.
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Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
15
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Paragon Renegade wrote:elenasa wrote:Paragon Renegade wrote:You serious? lol Of course. Why wouldnt I be? Real-world examples in a game? Err.... Not really valid.
Of course they're valid.
The fact you called them real-world examples means you're aware of them. They might not be valid for your argument, but that does not make your argument valid either.
Sounds to me you want to cut the cloth to suit you. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
583
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Naw, what you are doing wrong is shooting the 'Rogue' Drones
You need to be shooting at the 'Rouge' Drones to get bounties instead of drone poop.
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
755
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
you complain that you can get large amounts of morphite, zydrine and mega from drone loot? what about the fact that mineral prices keep going up and up and up?
get some industry skills and you will make a ton. |
elenasa
Ontology Collective
2
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
Paragon Renegade wrote:
Real-world examples in a game? Err.... Not really valid.
The real life examples were just ways of explaing how unrelated and distinctly seperate the mining and reprocessing industries are. Where both are as legitimate and valid as the other and neither have an inbuilt and natural claim to being providers of a particular commodity i.e. minerals. As I stated earlier, I see a valid argument for a 'reprocessing industry' where nw skills have to be learned, and developed to such an extent that a player would be able to refer to themselves as 'reprocessers' to the same degree and magnitude that players refer to themselves as miners, traders, missioners etc. But this is a seperate industry to mining, and if they earn more isk than miners, tough luck. |
Masumi Do
220
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
elenasa wrote:Why shouldn't reprocessing be as productive as mining/refining. A lot of the world's gold is got from reprocessed mobile phones. A lot of the world's silver is got from reprocessed cinema reels (celluloid). This is because the world is in the situation where the minig industries have dug-up most of the goddamn stuff and we have to think of new ways of getting hold of it.. Reprocessing, whether drone alloys or loot from wrecks, and mining/refining are simply different means of obtaining a commodity. Neither is the natural and rightful teritory of any one profession. But the two professions are both distinct and legitimate, nevertheless.
The difference between npc loot drops and reprocessing cell phones.. is the gold in the cell phones had to be mined first and didn't just get **** out from an npc drop.
I like the scrapmetal processing requirement idea alot. Also instead of bounties leave the drone poo and just add it as a bottleneck for manufacturing.. i don't know integrated drones perhaps? |
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Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
15
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:Naw, what you are doing wrong is shooting the 'Rogue' Drones
You need to be shooting at the 'Rouge' Drones to get bounties instead of drone poop.
As long as the bounties were a true reflection of the loot value, I'm sure ratters would agree with you as it would make things even easier. |
elenasa
Ontology Collective
2
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
Masumi Do wrote:
The difference between npc loot drops and reprocessing cell phones.. is the gold in the cell phones had to be mined first and didn't just get **** out from an npc drop.
As opposed to asteriods that actually congealed from dust that settled after the big bang.
Both asteroids and npcs are virtual objects to which you press a button to activate another vrtual process that will provide you with a virtual commodity.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
341
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:In the Drone Regions a ratter is effectively a miner as far as income is concerned. The real difference is roid mining is capped at the yield of a max-bonused hulk, whereas drone mining can go all the way up to supercaps |
Masumi Do
221
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
elenasa wrote:Masumi Do wrote:
The difference between npc loot drops and reprocessing cell phones.. is the gold in the cell phones had to be mined first and didn't just get **** out from an npc drop.
As opposed to asteriods that actually congealed from dust that settled after the big bang. Both asteroids and npcs are virtual objects to which you press a button to activate another vrtual process that will provide you with a virtual commodity.
I think your missing my point... In your real world example refiners refine metals that miners have already made money on. In the game npc drops are reprocessing into minerals that did not come from miners.
My point is that reprocessing npc loot cuts miners out of the picture unlike in your example. |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
15
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Sasha Azala wrote:In the Drone Regions a ratter is effectively a miner as far as income is concerned. The real difference is roid mining is capped at the yield of a max-bonused hulk, whereas drone mining can go all the way up to supercaps
I've never seen supercaps ratting in 0.0 roid belts, does not sound too efficient to me.
All I can say, is a guy I knew with good mining skills was making as much as me ratting, which sounds fairly even to me. |
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
72
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:I have always thought miners should be the only people to get the minerals and t1 drops removed so the BPO owners have the market to themselves.
Yeah, it shouldn't be just about the miners, if you are willing to **** millions of skillpoints into a niche (whether manufacturing, mining, research or whatever) you should be rewarded by having your skillset be something required by people other than yourself.
TBH, I think that even if the mining bots were to be totally done away with, people would still marginalize miners due to the existence of gun-mining. However, if gun-mining wasn't possible, I bet you'd see a huge increase in the number players picking up previously "useless" mining skills. If Meta 0 items were only available through players who owned BPOs (or BPCs bought from players who owned BPOs), I think the same would be true for manufacturing.
Combat isn't the only niche available in Eve, it shouldn't be the only one worth pursuing. Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been Eve is a great game if you can get past all of the asshats.... |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
341
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Posted - 2012.02.10 02:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote: All I can say, is a guy I knew with good mining skills was making as much as me ratting, which sounds fairly even to me.
since you're a 10 day old account, i believe it |
Sarmatiko
505
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 03:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
OP there is some good news for you. There is whole new dedicated team rised from fallen body of Team BFF Giant and it's called "Team Game of Drones". Also if you read some documents from ArekGÇÖJaalan like http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Project_Theta for example, you can assume that big changes coming to drones. Not to mention latest CSM minutes with Drone bounty discussion.
Now after this let me ask - why the **** are you raging? |
elenasa
Ontology Collective
2
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Posted - 2012.02.10 03:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
Masumi Do wrote:
I think your missing my point... In your real world example refiners refine metals that miners have already made money on. In the game npc drops are reprocessing into minerals that did not come from miners.
My point is that reprocessing npc loot cuts miners out of the picture unlike in your example.
Fair point, yet that doesnt detract from the fact that they are seperate industries which are actually in competintion with each other, which is pretty much the crux of my argument - maybe i didnt communicate it well.
A mining industry would, for example, mine bauxite which then gets sent off to the refining industry to get turned into aluminium, which then gets sent to a car manufacturer to be turned into a piston = 3 seperate inustries. My car engine needs a new piston so I go along to a scrap merchants (different industry) to get one. I dont see how this scrap merchant does not have as much of an equal and legitimate right to sell as many pistons to me as desired, regardless of the fact that other industries were involved along the chain of production. Also, the scrap merchant has every right to make mre money from this than other industries do. There arent any rules and regulationsthat allow the aluminium mining industry to produce and earn more than the scrap metal dealer (this, of course is slightly ludicrous because they obviously do make more money as they are a richer and more powerful industry). Nevetheless the philospohy is the same.
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Paragon Renegade
Offensive Logistics Inc
227
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Posted - 2012.02.10 03:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote: Now after this let me ask - why the **** are you raging?
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9ufwyrlkI1qbrm0io1_500.jpg
:3
BTW
You can't apply real-world things to a game sandbox for obvious reasons; guns in Call of Duty have less recoil than in real life, ergo they are bad. No.
I know the professions in real life are valid, but in real life machines don't come out of thin air for people to sell to scrap dealers.
Get it?
The pie is a tautology |
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