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Midas Man
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Posted - 2008.01.16 10:30:00 -
[61]
Originally by: nether void I don't really think the problem is in traders getting ****ed at other traders, but mainly manufacturers getting ****ed. They would rather build stuff and ferry stuff around etc than glue their eyeballs to the market gui. Traders like doing that, so they're obviously going to have the advantage. Manufacturers would rather be doing something else.
So I think that's the real core of the issue. Probably much like pirates love to blow mission runners up, and mission runners would rather be blowing up npcs. Different play styles clashing, and one set of players kicking the other set in the crotch. People say 'well kick them back' but they don't want to spend their play time doing that, so now what?
Stop manufacturing? Sounds like a crap solution to me. Better to make a compromise and let everyone have fun.
So how can we make a system that traders like (but probably not as much as they used to) but also manufacturers like (more than the system that's in place now).
Simple fix to this but no sre if CCP will do it. Make all manufactured good only manufacturable. so no drops of the item from NPC. therefore the only competion for manufacturers is other manufacturers.
then they would have the choice of selling volume quickly to Traders (ie Wholesale Trade). Or "Glueing themselves to the GUI to trade themselves for higher return on lower volume (Consumer Market).
This way things would be more like real life and manufacturers couldn't be screwed over by trades buy items at less than Reprocess value.
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Dreysine
Paratheoanametamystichood
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Posted - 2008.01.16 13:12:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Midas Man Simple fix to this but no sre if CCP will do it. Make all manufactured good only manufacturable. so no drops of the item from NPC. therefore the only competion for manufacturers is other manufacturers.
then they would have the choice of selling volume quickly to Traders (ie Wholesale Trade). Or "Glueing themselves to the GUI to trade themselves for higher return on lower volume (Consumer Market).
This way things would be more like real life and manufacturers couldn't be screwed over by traders buying items at less than Reprocess value.
actually i have heard devs mention plans to possibly do exactly what you describe. i would support such a change.
to the OP: the current market system is fine thank you.
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nether void
Caldari Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2008.01.16 15:36:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Dreysine
Originally by: Midas Man Simple fix to this but no sre if CCP will do it. Make all manufactured good only manufacturable. so no drops of the item from NPC. therefore the only competion for manufacturers is other manufacturers.
then they would have the choice of selling volume quickly to Traders (ie Wholesale Trade). Or "Glueing themselves to the GUI to trade themselves for higher return on lower volume (Consumer Market).
This way things would be more like real life and manufacturers couldn't be screwed over by traders buying items at less than Reprocess value.
actually i have heard devs mention plans to possibly do exactly what you describe. i would support such a change.
to the OP: the current market system is fine thank you.
That would definitely help a lot. In fact I would go so far as to remove all meta 0 drops from npcs. Would help both miners and manufacturers, because to be honest I make a killing in missions. It's rediculously lucrative for what you happen to be doing, blowing up about 30 ships or something.
Even if you take away meta 0 drops you still have all the named, bounties, mission rewards, and salvage. The meta 0 profit is probably only like 10% of the mission anyway. --------------------------- nethervoid - since '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|EVE|HZ|NWN|VG|WoW] |
Midas Man
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Posted - 2008.01.16 15:43:00 -
[64]
from my own missioning experience it isn't worth selling most Meta 0 items, don't have enougth slots to sell the named stuff (My Main Bob Killan is doing Lvl 4's this is just a trader account).
I use Meta 0 items as a way to make Ammo and Drones to keep costs of missioning lower
ie reprocess/manufacture
I personally would love to see the back of Meta 0 drops. take up too much space to Loot most of the time and generally speaking get left to float into a local star or some such
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Brisco Smiley
Peppermint Bay Trading Company
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Posted - 2008.01.16 16:42:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Midas Man May you enjoy all the items I bought at 1k and sold to you at 2k.
I love people that do that.
So you're the one buying Plush Compound for 33k in Empire?
Really what the OP wants here is simple. He wants the buyer to pay the second highest bid + 0.01. This idea is not without merit, but neither is it entirely necessary. The "Buy" dialog already has a field where you can enter the maximum you are willing to pay for an item. .01 brinksmanship is a game that a lot of people choose to play, but surely we all understand that one can make plenty of isk without trying to squeeze out another half a percent of margin by camping the market all day.
Undercutting is how the market punishes those who abuse their trading partners. It works fine for me as it is. A next-plus-one system would just be a bit more easy money for everyone who uses buy orders. I would certainly not complain about that.
Cheers,
Brisco Smiley
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nether void
Caldari Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2008.01.16 16:42:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Midas Man from my own missioning experience it isn't worth selling most Meta 0 items, don't have enougth slots to sell the named stuff (My Main Bob Killan is doing Lvl 4's this is just a trader account).
I use Meta 0 items as a way to make Ammo and Drones to keep costs of missioning lower
ie reprocess/manufacture
I personally would love to see the back of Meta 0 drops. take up too much space to Loot most of the time and generally speaking get left to float into a local star or some such
Exactly. I end up melting most of them, which is just hurting miners. I have a set of great refining skills (because I used to mine quite a bit), so I get a nice mound of minerals from even just 3 or 4 missions worth of 'crap'. But at the same time, I have trade 3 or 4 and retail 2, so I can throw up all the items worth 100k isk or more, and they typically sell well and fairly quickly. It's easy to make 3 mil from a lv 3 mission. To me that's just insane, because I'm not even flying a battleship yet. Of course my ship cost me 34m with another 10m or so invested in a purger rig (I built). The rest of the ship has looted items or items given to me. Seems a seriously easy way to get cash without staring at a rock for hours on end. And even then I make less money mining in high sec, since I'm not in a barge.
Add to that I could, as you say, use those mins to build my ammo, and I might never have to touch the market (assuming I don't lose any ships).
At the very least I should have to buy my ammo from the market or the minerals to build my own. Also with meta 0 drops removed not only do I have to buy minerals from the market, I also can't sell those meta 0 mods for 300 isk a piece, which some guy is turning around selling for 15k or something close to that (although why someone would ever sell a mod to a rediculously low buy order instead of reprocessing it is beyond me, but I guess it happens a lot). --------------------------- nethervoid - since '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|EVE|HZ|NWN|VG|WoW] |
Arthor Dark
Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.01.16 16:49:00 -
[67]
Yes, I am a manufacturer. I want to build stuff and put it up for sale, not sit half an hour at a time glued to the marketing GUI updating some 200+ sell / buy orders. And it's not like I am engaging in some complex marketing strategy when I do that, I'm merely upping by 0.01 isk.
Having price ranges could fix that - it would automate the mandane and boring aspect of working at the market. If not the ranges, how about having some highlighting which would show the buy/sell orders that you are currently outbid on. That way traders wouldn't have to go through all orders just to update a few of them.
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Giovanni F
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Posted - 2008.01.16 16:55:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Arthor Dark Yes, I am a manufacturer. I want to build stuff and put it up for sale, not sit half an hour at a time glued to the marketing GUI updating some 200+ sell / buy orders. And it's not like I am engaging in some complex marketing strategy when I do that, I'm merely upping by 0.01 isk.
Having price ranges could fix that - it would automate the mandane and boring aspect of working at the market. If not the ranges, how about having some highlighting which would show the buy/sell orders that you are currently outbid on. That way traders wouldn't have to go through all orders just to update a few of them.
So what you're saying is you want your orders to be automated to reduce a mundane task, while also decrying the .01 undercutters as using bots which automate their undercutting and overbidding. I just find that hilarious.
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Arthor Dark
Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.01.16 17:00:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Giovanni F So what you're saying is you want your orders to be automated to reduce a mundane task, while also decrying the .01 undercutters as using bots which automate their undercutting and overbidding. I just find that hilarious.
In regard to bots, I merely pointed out that they are automating a mundane task, a task that should be automated for everyone. People using bots to do this simple task is evidence enough how intellectually shallow that task really is.
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Dzil
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Posted - 2008.01.16 17:33:00 -
[70]
Originally by: nether void I don't really think the problem is in traders getting ****ed at other traders, but mainly manufacturers getting ****ed. They would rather build stuff and ferry stuff around etc than glue their eyeballs to the market gui. Traders like doing that, so they're obviously going to have the advantage. Manufacturers would rather be doing something else.
So I think that's the real core of the issue. Probably much like pirates love to blow mission runners up, and mission runners would rather be blowing up npcs. Different play styles clashing, and one set of players kicking the other set in the crotch. People say 'well kick them back' but they don't want to spend their play time doing that, so now what?
Stop manufacturing? Sounds like a crap solution to me. Better to make a compromise and let everyone have fun.
So how can we make a system that traders like (but probably not as much as they used to) but also manufacturers like (more than the system that's in place now).
This is a good, rational look at the issue. But as was stated before, it's a solution in search of a problem.
In a well contested market (Jita is a great example, as much as we all hate flying to that hotbed of lag and cutthroat marketing), the margin between the buy and sell orders on an item are typically pretty tight. If you're a manufacturer, and you don't want to hassle with managing a sell order, sell to the highest buy order instead. Let the gui huggers do what they do best, and get back to what you do best - give up the trading margin if you don't want to trade! Or sell one to the highest bidder, look at who bought it and make a friend. Maybe you can work out some kind of retailer agreement with them, because typically if they are buying more than 10 of anything that doesn't exit a gun, they intend to resell it. You give them a way to build their stock with less pennycutting, they share part of the reselling profit with you. Now that would be a compromising solution!
Making a system that traders don't like as much, while manufacturers like more isn't looking for a win/win - you're looking to take something from the traders, plain and simple. That's not a compromise.
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nether void
Caldari Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2008.01.16 17:33:00 -
[71]
So what happens to your sell order if you just leave it there without bumping it ever? Like if you put 100 of some item you manufactured at x price for 3 months. Could you just wait out the time when a 0.01 bump trader wouldn't compete with you because at that point in time there wouldn't be any profit in it?
In short, can you just leave your order up there, and eventually it will sell without ever adjusting the price? --------------------------- nethervoid - since '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|EVE|HZ|NWN|VG|WoW] |
Dzil
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Posted - 2008.01.16 17:36:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Arthor Dark
Originally by: Giovanni F So what you're saying is you want your orders to be automated to reduce a mundane task, while also decrying the .01 undercutters as using bots which automate their undercutting and overbidding. I just find that hilarious.
In regard to bots, I merely pointed out that they are automating a mundane task, a task that should be automated for everyone. People using bots to do this simple task is evidence enough how intellectually shallow that task really is.
Am I misreading this, or are you suggesting you can prove marketing bots exist?
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nether void
Caldari Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2008.01.16 17:45:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Dzil Making a system that traders don't like as much, while manufacturers like more isn't looking for a win/win - you're looking to take something from the traders, plain and simple. That's not a compromise.
I agree with you on that point. That is not the definition of compromise.
I guess what I meant is traders getting a small bit of shafting to give the manufacturers a bit of a boost, so that both can still be happy, although not as happy as they would be if they had all their demands filled. I guess that's the compromise. Both parties having both good and bad in a system, to make sure both are still having fun.
I like the retailer idea though. I wish there was a wholesaler market in this game apart from the 'public' market. That would really smooth out the idea you have there.
Apart from the 0.01 bumping (which I still think is pretty rediculous, and mainly stems from the lack of product differentiation in this game), the biggest problem for the manufacturer and miner at this point seems to be more in the meta 0 drops than anything else.
I hate babysitting my sell orders, so I have some other alternatives in mind for selling my goods when my corp is ready to start manufacturing. None of them include myself gui hugging the damn market screen. lol I just can't see making money in this game for the sole purpose of making money. It feels too meta to me. --------------------------- nethervoid - since '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|EVE|HZ|NWN|VG|WoW] |
Arthor Dark
Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.01.16 18:49:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Dzil
Am I misreading this, or are you suggesting you can prove marketing bots exist?
I can't prove it, no. All I was getting at, is that the task is so menial that three lines of logic in a programing language can do it.
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Kaivos
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Posted - 2008.01.17 13:45:00 -
[75]
Don't try to fix something which is not broken.
0.01 undercutting is perfectly fine, valid tactic and no way a problem of any kind.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2008.01.18 20:43:00 -
[76]
Is it annoying? Yes. Is it boring? Yes.
Is it profitable? HELL YES.
Eve is PVP, even the market. If you don't want to compete with other players, go shoot rocks.
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Giovanni F
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Posted - 2008.01.18 21:53:00 -
[77]
Well, I'm a miner that became a trader and small time manufacturer, so I believe that I have first hand knowledge about the situations faced by all three, and hate when people use overreaching terms to try to describe the plight they themselves feel. When I mine, and I put up sell orders for the minerals that are in between the highest buy and lowest sell orders. They don't sell immediately, but in the system I usually mine, they sell fast enough, and with no GUI hugging needed. When I build a ship, I sell to the highest buy order. I could make a few more million by setting up a sell order, but thats not worth my time and the increased money payoff is not significant enough to make setting up sell orders worthwhile.
If manufacturers don't want to go through a task they consider mundane but that enables traders to make a living, they can either suck it up and spend an extra few minutes taking the time out of their 24 hour to set up sell orders, continue to whine and complaining while trying to shaft traders and what we do, or stop manufacturing and mining entirely, which will drive up the prices for most products incrementally, making traders more money. You won't see us complaining one bit
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