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Jalmari Huitsikko
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
29
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Posted - 2012.02.11 10:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Background:
Currently high sp pilots have relatively very expensive medical clones. After some level of sp clone price goes up so much it doesn't make any sense to fly cheaper ships at all because medical clone cost is many many times the value of the ship. This limits the game experience of high sp pilots since it doesn't make sense for them to participate in operations flown with cheaper ships. Not only does it limit experience of high sp pilots but since they cannot fly cheap ships they won't be there to teach new players either with those said cheap ships.
Thesis:
If medical clone price would be cut to minimal, it would allow also high sp pilots to fly cheap ships if they so choose. Even then learning implants and hardwires would be costly to lose, but you could choose to fly with a blank clone with no implants and no benefits if you would want to fly with a cheap clone.
Possible solutions:
1. Make medical clone cost much less. Maybe cap it to like 1-2 million isk which seems suitable and still makes sense to fly i.e. rifter without too much tears after getting podded.
2. Keep clone costs same but limit maximum cost to ship hull base price. I.e. with rifter maximum cost after losing pod would be like 500k or whatever. Insurance company or something would pay back the extra or something. This feels a bit complicated, though.
3. Make all medical clones cost maximum like 1-2 million but require upgrading clone once after you reach certain sp. That way you would still need to pay and remember to upgrade clone. I personally like this most, but seems a bit more work than option 1. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
182
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Posted - 2012.02.11 11:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
if you have enough SP to make a medical clone cost a noticeable amount of ISK, you have enough SP to gain that amount of ISK in short order. |
Jalmari Huitsikko
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
30
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Posted - 2012.02.11 11:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:if you have enough SP to make a medical clone cost a noticeable amount of ISK, you have enough SP to gain that amount of ISK in short order.
I do not believe that is valid argument. I can personally make isk for medical clone in 5 minutes. However the point is that if there is no sensible reason to fly a ship worth 1 million isk when your medical clone costs like what way over 20 times that.
Sure you can go lose pod and rifter once in a year without complaint but if you lose several clones a day that's becoming nuisance and feels pretty much dumb. And that is what you're going to do if you fly tech 1 frigate or so. Not only that but it seems pretty stupid that your medical clone costs more than your ship.
With current system it's just easier to roll a buddy alt and use that. I do not believe this is how it should be. After all if you have even one +4 learning implant it's already many times worth of tech 1 frigate. And should suffice for loss if you choose to use implants.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
373
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Posted - 2012.02.11 11:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
---GÖ½GÖ¬ ---- GÖ¬GÖ¬GÖ½ ---
You hear that? It's the sound of the world's smallest violin playing.
The cost of clones follow the general theme that has always been at play in EVE: increases in effectiveness comes at exponentially increased costs. "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
50
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Posted - 2012.02.11 11:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:---GÖ½GÖ¬ ---- GÖ¬GÖ¬GÖ½ ---
You hear that? It's the sound of the world's smallest violin playing.
The cost of clones follow the general theme that has always been at play in EVE: increases in effectiveness come at exponentially increased costs.
Nice trolling, however, that prevents high SP pilots from effectively flying cheap ships. And that's broken.
I in general agree that proposal by the OP should be implemented, and costs of medical clones kept reasonable. |
Jalmari Huitsikko
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
30
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Posted - 2012.02.11 11:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:---GÖ½GÖ¬ ---- GÖ¬GÖ¬GÖ½ ---
You hear that? It's the sound of the world's smallest violin playing.
The cost of clones follow the general theme that has always been at play in EVE: increases in effectiveness comes at exponentially increased costs.
Medical clone does not give you any advantage in battle. Given proper training 5 million sp character has equal skills to fly a rifter than 100 million sp character. Sometimes possibly better.
Also FW corps should keep their music in roleplaying forum. |
Simi Kusoni
The Synergy Cascade Imminent
135
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Posted - 2012.02.11 13:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Stop upgrading your clone. There, now you're a low SP pilot and you don't have to pay any ISK for upgrades. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
184
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Posted - 2012.02.11 22:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nestara Aldent wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:---GÖ½GÖ¬ ---- GÖ¬GÖ¬GÖ½ ---
You hear that? It's the sound of the world's smallest violin playing.
The cost of clones follow the general theme that has always been at play in EVE: increases in effectiveness come at exponentially increased costs. That prevents high SP pilots from effectively flying cheap ships. And that's broken. I in general agree that proposal by the OP should be implemented, and costs of medical clones kept reasonable.
No, it doesn't. All it means is that it's a little bit riskier. You not wanting to risk it is what makes you 'less effective'.
if it makes you feel better, fly a T2 frig instead. A wolf or a Jag are just beefier rifters after all. |
Elvis Preslie
NRDS Securities Apocalypse Now.
10
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Posted - 2012.02.13 11:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:if you have enough SP to make a medical clone cost a noticeable amount of ISK, you have enough SP to gain that amount of ISK in short order.
Not only that you would have common sense to split up your skills among clones designed for a purpose. Like a couple industrial characters, a pvp character which has very cheap replacement clones for dying, etc.
Most people with common sense train 3 different accounts at least with 3 different characters, to train at the same time on all 3, then move the 2 characters to the account wanting to be kept, using 2 plex. |
Markus Reese
Debitum Naturae White Noise.
15
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Posted - 2012.02.13 13:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:if you have enough SP to make a medical clone cost a noticeable amount of ISK, you have enough SP to gain that amount of ISK in short order.
Not valid arguement. This comes from a higher sp pilot who doesnt have 6 farming alts, or many hours a day to play. My available isk is finite as is play time to earn it. With much of the time I have being devoted to pvp, I have to be extremely paranoid about losing clones. One bad weekend of fighting could really drain my bank account. With the clone costs increasing exponentially, it will begin to really limit my available cheap fleet pvp time if I get a series of clone losses. |
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Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1046
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Posted - 2012.02.13 13:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
I didn't even bother to read the thread since he used "PLOX" in the thread title. I assume anybody stupid enough to use "PLOX" isn't bright enough to have a good idea...judging from the reactions to the thread I might be right.
Yes...clone costs are expensive. All the more reason not to die. If you aren't making enough ISK to pay for your clone...then you are doing something wrong. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
ILikeMarkets
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
58
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Posted - 2012.02.13 13:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
If new players are to be crapped upon by being forced to wait months to get any real flying skills to do what they want, I see no reason that we older players shouldn't have equal treatment by having to pay out the ass for medical clones.
My faith in humanity has been somewhat restored seeing similar responses to this "make being a vet EZMode!" thread as they do to "Make being a new player EZMode!" one. At least EVE is consistent, and I can handle that. Protect highsec.-áWe are the 66%.
https://p.twimg.com/Ajc6KNBCQAAT9my.png (Source: https://twitter.com/ccp_diagoras ) |
Simi Kusoni
The Synergy Cascade Imminent
144
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Posted - 2012.02.13 14:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
ILikeMarkets wrote:My faith in humanity has been somewhat restored seeing similar responses to this "make being a vet EZMode!" thread as they do to "Make being a new player EZMode!" one. At least EVE is consistent, and I can handle that. This actually made me smile a little :) |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
131
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Posted - 2012.02.13 15:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote: Not valid arguement.
very valid argument. ISK sink, taxes for SP rich people, who should be able to afford a clone without any problems and should have enough experience to minimize pod losses.
Markus Reese wrote:This comes from a higher sp pilot who doesnt have 6 farming alts, or many hours a day to play. My available isk is finite as is play time to earn it. its your personal problem, not of the game itself or its balance. If you dont want to loose pods, fly something different which does not cause that many pod losses. Its easy. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
152
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Posted - 2012.02.13 15:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
You people are generally ignoring his main point, which is that entire classes of ships are useless for someone with X number of skillpoints. Even t2 frigates are hard to justify when a clone costs as much as a hull.
Quote:...Yes...clone costs are expensive. All the more reason not to die. If you aren't making enough ISK to pay for your clone...then you are doing something wrong.
He already explained this point.
I should also point out, while we're bitching about new players, that this mechanic pushes experienced players into expensive ships that newbies can't fly. A newbie or a group of newbies will have a much greater chance of killing a veteran in a rifter than a veteran in a vagabond.
Quote: very valid argument. ISK sink, taxes for SP rich people, who should be able to afford a clone without any problems and should have enough experience to minimize pod losses.
It's not a valid argument since it misses the point of his post, which is that cheap ships cease to become a viable option for veterans. Why are we removing options from players? |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
131
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Posted - 2012.02.13 15:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
there is no relation between ships you fly and the pod costs at all, so I dont get your argument in the first line.
What is the difference of loosing a pod when flying a rifter or vaga, there is no interference between ship and pod costs.
Your problem is loosing a 50m pod for a rifter and disproportional costs of the both, but your actual problem is flying an easy to pop ship with an expensive clone. It could be a rifter, an interdictor or a heavy interdictor for instance. Flying those ships will very likely get your pod popped in the end. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
598
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Posted - 2012.02.13 17:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:You people are generally ignoring his main point, which is that entire classes of ships are useless for someone with X number of skillpoints. Even t2 frigates are hard to justify when a clone costs as much as a hull.
No, they aren't. Just because you have X SP doesn't mean any given hull is 'beneath you'. If you feel like your clone with X SP isn't safe enough in a T1 frig, then that's your choice not to fly one. But the clone cost has nothing whatsoever to do with the cost of the ship. And anyways, by the time you have enough SP for clones to cost even more than 10M, you should have the means to easily make the money back without any significant impact on your playtime. |
Xolve
The Suicide Kings Test Alliance Please Ignore
869
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Posted - 2012.02.13 20:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jalmari Huitsikko wrote:Medical Clones, a bloo bloo bloo
OP- I would say your alliance losing entire fleets to 20 bombers is a bigger issue, you should definitely advocate the nerfing of skillful bomber pilots, and not argue against the cost of medical implants, if you're losing multiple pods a day, make a freaking escape tab and start spamming warp to Celestials.
With a little caution and vigilance, there is no reason to lose multiple pods a day, stop being so damn bad.
I'm glad you're arguing that medical clones are too damn expensive, when your alliance spends 3.15 BILLION ISK to kill a single Sabre. Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Tidurious
The Dirty Rejects Scelus Sceleris.
68
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Posted - 2012.02.13 21:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:if you have enough SP to make a medical clone cost a noticeable amount of ISK, you have enough SP to gain that amount of ISK in short order.
This. You already defeated your own argument with your statement that you can make the cost of a clone in 5 minutes. So grow up, do an hour of whatever it is that you do, and then go get podded 12 times. You'll break even. |
Zyress
Deaths Head Brigade
31
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Posted - 2012.02.13 22:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
well don't get podded then, keep a location in autopilot to warp off to as soon as your ship blows, in most cases they can't acquire a lock on a pod before you could align and warp, and if they can then you're probably in the wrong place to be in a cheap t1 frigate. |
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
296
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Posted - 2012.02.14 08:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
if you have that much sp, you should be beyond giving a **** how much isk your ship or clone costs |
Bubanni
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
81
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Posted - 2012.02.14 09:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
PvPers are not exactly known for being rich carebears... when I log in, I do so to pvp... when getting podded costs more than a new battlecruiser hull it begins to be a problem... I think it's fine that new clones cost a few mil... at at 20-30 mil a pop it begins to be too painful... this is without implants of cause... and without factoring the ship lost also...
A nice 50% reduction in clone price would be very wanted...
Also, it's moronic to assume that more sp=more isk... theses a limit to how effective a ship can become with your sp... does not take 100 mil sp to get max skills for flying a battleship or marauder
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
296
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Posted - 2012.02.14 09:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:Also, it's moronic to assume that more sp=more isk... theses a limit to how effective a ship can become with your sp... does not take 100 mil sp to get max skills for flying a battleship or marauder
no it isn't, if you've been playing this game longer than 6 months, you *should* have the knowledge of game mechanics to be able to sustain 45m a pop clone costs. assuming ofc you aren't being podded multiple times daily. and i say *should* because goddamn there are some people who are ******* awful at this game and manage to stay broke with like 50M SP.
thats a heroic feat right there. |
Bubanni
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
81
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Posted - 2012.02.14 09:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
Personly I loose a clone weekly bi-weekly, sometimes you can find yourself in the middle of a bubble after combat :) sometimes annoying features of eve cause you to be unable to save your pod if you die much faster than expected...
Good example of this is if you right clicked in space to select a location to warp... and them your ship blows up, the session change closes the menu so you have to right click again... also combined with session change often causes a 1-2 sec loading lag... having the location preselected in the overview while spamming warp helps against this of cause |
Jalmari Huitsikko
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
41
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Posted - 2012.02.26 21:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:if you have that much sp, you should be beyond giving a **** how much isk your ship or clone costs
I am. I can buy around 1000000000000 or so medical clones that is not the point here.
At some point MEDICAL clone cost becomes just stupidly high that it doesn't make real sense to even fly an interdictor or well pretty much anything else than tech 3 or titan.
My argument here is that you could choose to fly cheap clone without any implants and hop in rifter or merlin or whatever, lose maybe 100 rifters and pods and just have fun since blank clone doesn't really give you any advantage in combat, counting out against maybe under 1million sp newbie. But I think that would be a little special case there.
I have low sp alt for it.That doesn't mean medical clone cost isn't stupidly high and just need to create alt to fly a rifter sounds a bit stupid doesn't it?
Little comparison:
my 15mil sp alt has clone cost around 1mil isk.
other toon has 75mil sp and has 20mil clone cost
both can fly almost as effectively all subcapital ships of one race, neither really being remarkably better.
In short in my opinion clone costs make no sense at all and numbers were taken off the hat. |
Tekashi Kovacs
Golfclap Inc
6
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Posted - 2012.02.26 22:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Medical clones doesnt add anything to the game with exception of unnecessary complication. They are waiting to be removed, its just a matter of time. |
Tidurious
The Dirty Rejects Scelus Sceleris.
101
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Posted - 2012.02.26 22:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:Medical clones doesnt add anything to the game with exception of unnecessary complication. They are waiting to be removed, its just a matter of time.
Um, do you play this game much? Do you understand how it works? I think not.
Medical clones are an essential part of the game - you don't update, that's your choice. But if you die, you'll lose SP. They're also an essential part of the game lore, and they will NEVER be removed from the game. Nice try though.
If you have that many SP, you have enough ISK to not worry about your clone costs! It's a necessary ISK-sink on older players, who are too easily able to make insane amounts of ISK with little effort compared to younger players.
Clones are working as intended, quit whining, and play the game. |
Tekashi Kovacs
Golfclap Inc
6
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Posted - 2012.02.26 22:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tidurious wrote: Medical clones are an essential part of the game - you don't update, that's your choice. But if you die, you'll lose SP. They're also an essential part of the game lore, and they will NEVER be removed from the game. Nice try though.
Nobody with his right mind will ever decide to NOT update his clone, so is that really an choice? No, its not. In other hand, some people may indeed forget to update them, thus being punished for... nothing.
It is part of the game, right, but its really weak part that makes little sense. Such things should be eliminated as quick as possible and I'am sure they eventually will, just with CCPs style 5-7 year delay as most things were.
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Simi Kusoni
The Synergy Cascade Imminent
219
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Posted - 2012.02.26 22:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:Nobody with his right mind will ever decide to NOT update his clone, so is that really an choice? No, its not. In other hand, some people may indeed forget to update them, thus being punished for... nothing.
It is part of the game, right, but its really weak part that makes little sense. Such things should be eliminated as quick as possible and I'am sure they eventually will, just with CCPs style 5-7 year delay as most things were.
Lol, medical clones aren't going anywhere. People who forget to update them, despite all the warnings, are being punished for being idiots. -áhttp://i.imgur.com/aWNfM.jpg |
Tidurious
The Dirty Rejects Scelus Sceleris.
103
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Posted - 2012.02.26 22:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Tekashi Kovacs wrote:Nobody with his right mind will ever decide to NOT update his clone, so is that really an choice? No, its not. In other hand, some people may indeed forget to update them, thus being punished for... nothing.
It is part of the game, right, but its really weak part that makes little sense. Such things should be eliminated as quick as possible and I'am sure they eventually will, just with CCPs style 5-7 year delay as most things were.
Lol, medical clones aren't going anywhere. People who forget to update them, despite all the warnings, are being punished for being idiots.
This ^^
This game punishes you for being an idiot, making bad choices, etc. You don't want to be punished, than go find another game. Stop whining about ISK you already have:
Simi Kusoni wrote:I can buy around 1000000000000 or so medical clones that is not the point here.
This IS the point ^^
You're whining about something that ISN'T AN ISSUE. Just because you don't like it in principal, to pay more for a clone than you do for a ship, doesn't mean the game is broken. No matter what car I drive, I'll always value my life more than the car I'm in too. I don't see the issue. |
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